How much DPR is frenzy or Extra Critical worth? Need baseline to compare new subclass

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm slowly imagining rune-based subclasses for fighters and barbarians (runes require high stamina/training to survive wielding is my current fluff) and need a touchstone to balance against. Each rune has a particular "passive" benefit. Of the 11 I have, 4 have direct damage bonuses, giving a small amount of <elemental> damage on hit. The question is, how much? I'd like them to be in the same band as the existing features. As I see it, that would be comparing them against the following:

* Berserker barbarians' Frenzy
* Champion fighters' extended crit range
* Battlemaster fighters' maneuvers (except the runic classes don't directly use a consumable, so it's a hard comparison).
* Wolf Totem Barbarians' pack tactics

Anyone done the math to see how much that extra crit range/frenzy is worth at various levels? I've been fiddling, but I don't trust my numbers.

For reference, the google doc with my current attempt (total WIP) is here.

[Morphic tide]

While I can't give exact numbers right now, the contribution of extended critical range is, essentially, the change in incidence rate of critical hits(5% per point) in combination with the damage of a critical hit. So if that critical hit is dealing an extra 5 damage on average, then you have an increase of 0.25 damage per attack.

Frenzy gives an extra attack as a Bonus Action. Just find the damage of an attack from the Barbarian and add another, with the normal Rage modifiers.

As for having it be subclasses... Make a class that does nothing but Runes, then make the subclass as a 1/3 progression of that, just like Eldritch Knight.

[zeek0]

To reiterate what Morphic said: increased crit range is very low power. It's really only good in the hands of a paladin (who can immediately superpower a crit with a smite), or a rogue (who may be doing sneak attack damage at the time).

So, it kinda depends.

[LeonBH]

* Berserker barbarians' Frenzy
* Champion fighters' extended crit range
* Battlemaster fighters' maneuvers (except the runic classes don't directly use a consumable, so it's a hard comparison).
* Wolf Totem Barbarians' pack tactic.

The Frenzy attack has a huge impact on DPR. Assuming you have no Extra Attack, Frenzy doubles your DPR by allowing you to attack twice instead of once. If you have the Fighter's Extra Attack (level 5-10), Frenzy lets you increase your DPR by 33%, and 25% at levels 11-19. And then a 20% DPR increase at level 20.

The Champion's expanded crit range (levels 3-14) synergizes very well with the Barbarian's Reckless Attack. Doing a quick DPR comparison (where you only miss on a 1 and you're using a greatsword):

Basic attack: 2d6+5 ~ 12
Crit damage: 4d6+5 ~ 19

Damage per Attack (Regular roll): (0.90*12) + (0.05*19) ~ 11.75
Damage per Attack (Regular roll, crit range 19-20): (0.85*12) + (0.1*19) ~ 12.10
Damage per Attack (Adv. roll, crit range 19-20): (0.807*12) + (0.191*19) ~ 13.13
Damage per Attack (Regular roll, crit range 18-20): (0.80*12) + (0.15*19) ~ 12.45
Damage per Attack (Adv. roll, crit range 18-20): (0.72*12) + (0.278*19) ~ 13.922

The DPR increase on the strongest case is only 18.4% (13.922/11.75).

[zeek0]

The Frenzy attack has a huge impact on DPR. Assuming you have no Extra Attack, Frenzy doubles your DPR by allowing you to attack twice instead of once. If you have the Fighter's Extra Attack (level 5-10), Frenzy lets you increase your DPR by 33%, and 25% at levels 11-19. And then a 20% DPR increase at level 20.

The Champion's expanded crit range (levels 3-14) synergizes very well with the Barbarian's Reckless Attack. Doing a quick DPR comparison (where you only miss on a 1 and you're using a greatsword):

Basic attack: 2d6+5 ~ 12
Crit damage: 4d6+5 ~ 19

Damage per Attack (Regular roll): (0.90*12) + (0.05*19) ~ 11.75
Damage per Attack (Regular roll, crit range 19-20): (0.85*12) + (0.1*19) ~ 12.10
Damage per Attack (Adv. roll, crit range 19-20): (0.807*12) + (0.191*19) ~ 13.13
Damage per Attack (Regular roll, crit range 18-20): (0.80*12) + (0.15*19) ~ 12.45
Damage per Attack (Adv. roll, crit range 18-20): (0.72*12) + (0.278*19) ~ 13.922

The DPR increase on the strongest case is only 18.4% (13.922/11.75).

You take into account missing on a 1 (which would happen in almost every case, even without auto-misses), and you mistakenly double the damage of the STR modifier on a hit.

I'll do the math, using anydice.com as a calculator.

Assumptions: a 2d6 weapon, +4 Strength (normal: 11, crit: 18) and a native 60% chance to hit.

Damage Per Attack
Regular: .55(11) + .05(18) = 7
With Crit Range 19-20: .50(11) + .10(18) = 7.3, or +4%
With Advantage: .74(11) + .10(18) = 10, or +43%
With Both: .65(11) + .19(18) = 10.6, or +51%

There's about 4% worth of synergy in there, which is nothing to scoff at. Again, we see that advantage does the bulk of the work and that increased crit range isn't a quality way to increase damage.

[LeonBH]

You take into account missing on a 1 (which would happen in almost every case, even without auto-misses)

Not true. 29 Strength gives +9 Strength (magic item), +1 due to Blade Mastery (UA feat), +3 legendary weapon, and +6 proficiency bonus gives you +19 to hit. You'll hit anyone with an AC of 21 or lower as long as you don't roll a 1.

Yes, you're supremely yoked out if you have all those things, but I'm using a high-powered example. Do you not want to take account all the various power levels?

The higher your level, the greater the effect of advantage/increased crit range, and the greater the relative effects of these things become.

and you mistakenly double the damage of the STR modifier on a hit.

The critical with a 2d6 weapon is 4d6. 4d6 averages out to 14. The modifier I gave it was 5. And 14+5=19.

[zeek0]

Not true. 29 Strength gives +9 Strength (magic item), +1 due to Blade Mastery (UA feat), +3 legendary weapon, and +6 proficiency bonus gives you +19 to hit. You'll hit anyone with an AC of 21 or lower as long as you don't roll a 1.

Yes, you're supremely yoked out if you have all those things, but I'm using a high-powered example. Do you not want to take account all the various power levels?

The higher your level, the greater the effect of advantage/increased crit range, and the greater the relative effects of these things become.



The critical with a 2d6 weapon is 4d6. 4d6 averages out to 14. The modifier I gave it was 5. And 14+5=19.

Oh, yup, I made a mistake when considering your crit calculation.

I still think that considering advantage alongside hit chance is important (in yhe base game, a 1 and a 2 aren't that different), but otherwise we're cool.

[LeonBH]

Oh, yup, I made a mistake when considering your crit calculation.

I still think that considering advantage alongside hit chance is important (in yhe base game, a 1 and a 2 aren't that different), but otherwise we're cool.

I did consider advantage. I also considered an expanded crit range of 19-20 and 18-20, with and without advantage.