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  1. - Top - End - #511
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Nov 2019

    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoocaoz View Post
    Hello guys!

    We are going to play Sackled city revised to be played in 5e. I absolutely love the conquest paladin, and i'm going to be a Paladin of wee jas...
    Background aside i rolled these stat: 17,16,15,14,11,11. I can't choose between the Fallen Aasima (+2 cha, +1 str and so many nice bonus) and Human Variant (feat yeah!).

    Str 14 (+1 for both FA and HV)
    Dex 11
    Cos 16
    Int 15 (don't mind this i'm going to roleplay and inqusitive guy looking for bad guy's clues)
    Will 11
    Cha 17 (+2 for FA and +1 HV)

    I really want to take the dip into Hexblade but, how many levels? And when (pala1/hex1->pala2,3...etc)? That depends on choosing sword-n-board or polearm master.
    I am really troubled by having so many path to follow, that i can't really choose the best one.

    Any raccomendation or word of experience?
    You're wasting attribute points like this. Avoid stacking up so many odd numbered attributes if possible. Int should be 14, you don't need the half point that doesn't change your modifier. I'd suggest the following for Fallen Aasimar:

    15 Str (+1)
    11 Dex
    17 Con
    14 Int
    11 Wis
    16 Cha (+2)

    This gives you the option of taking Resilient (Con) to give you proficiency in Con saves, and round off that odd Con score. You'd ideally want one of this or Warcaster, depending on your build.

    For the VHuman:

    15 Str (+1)
    11 Dex
    16 Con
    14 Int
    11 Wis
    17 Cha (+1)

    Same set of modifiers, but makes Resilient (Con) a waste of an attribute point. Which is fine; take Warcaster instead. Also +1 feat at level 1!

    There's two main Strength-based builds for this; Sword and Board, or Halberd Memes.

    Sword and Board makes the "Resilient (Con) vs Warcaster" debate exceptionally easy - you have to pick Warcaster. Fear (amongst other spells) is a V S M spell; the material component can be covered by your shield, but you need a free hand to cast the Somatic portions of the spell... unless you have Warcaster, in which case you can just wave your sword around. That's the main feat priority for you, so feel free to grab it at level 1/4, and then just push your Cha then Str up with your ASIs.

    Shield Master is worth grabbing at level 8, as Aura of Conquest has just come online at level 7 but you don't have Fear for one more level; frighten an enemy, attack them and bonus action shove 5ft away. So long as that enemy remains frightened and 10ft from you, its movement speed is 0 - who needs armour when dudes can't even hit you?

    Halberd Memes gives you a free hand for spellcasting; but whichever Con save feat you pick, that should be your third choice feat. Before then, you should grab Polearm Master and Sentinel. Why? So that when a melee enemy rushes you, you get an attack of opportunity when they get 10ft from you, and if that hits the enemy can move no closer. What else has a range of 10ft? Aura of Conquest. So then you hit them with a Wrathful Smite or Fear, and if frightened, they continue to have a movement speed of 0 while you hit them with a big stick.

    I'd strongly recommend going VHuman for this, simply so that you can have Sentinel + Polearm Master + Warcaster up and running by level 8 (sandwiched between getting Aura of Conquest and Fear). But Fallen Aasimar is perfectly viable; you can still cast spells without Warcaster, you just might have issues keeping Fear up and running (although PAM/Sentinel will help avoid needing to roll the Con saves in the first place).

    I'd avoid taking a dip into Hexblade. With these stats the gain is minimal, and not worth delaying the good bits of your build coming online. But if you want to then yes, a single level for your second level is all I'd take.

  2. - Top - End - #512
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildarm View Post
    Any thoughts on the recent warforged changes on how to build a Conquest Pally? +2 Con and +1 Cha seems the way to go but the build gets stretched thin with point buy if you want heavy armor now that you need 15 Str for plate once again.
    Loss of envoy hurts forged conquerors a lot actually. Drops them from one of the best race choices down to B tiers, imo. Not bad, but not as good as any class with bonuses to both strength & cha (or dex & cha for the rare & arguably underrated conquest dexadin). If you want to stick w it anyway, then +1 cha if you plan to hex dip. Imo +1 str if you don't.


    With the finalized versions, the big racial prize for conquest pallies is actually changelings, with their potential +3 cha allowing for cha 18 at level 1 in a points buy game. Obviously you're hex dipping if you do that. With a single level dip, you can have 20 attack stat, 20 magic stat, warcaster, aura of conquest, and fear all by level 10, along with first level hex goodies including shield & booming blade to use with warcaster, cause fear, and hexblade's curse.

    Beyond the +3 cha, changeling dont have all that much, but the couple cha skill proficiencies are welcome, and there's bound to be useful applications for the face changing ability, even if admittedly a more roguish class might make better use of it.
    Last edited by Sception; 2019-12-01 at 11:54 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #513
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    Loss of envoy hurts forged conquerors a lot actually. Drops them from one of the best race choices down to B tiers, imo. Not bad, but not as good as any class with bonuses to both strength & cha (or dex & cha for the rare & arguably underrated conquest dexadin). If you want to stick w it anyway, then +1 cha if you plan to hex dip. Imo +1 str if you don't.


    With the finalized versions, the big racial prize for conquest pallies is actually changelings, with their potential +3 cha allowing for cha 18 at level 1 in a points buy game. Obviously you're hex dipping if you do that. With a single level dip, you can have 20 attack stat, 20 magic stat, warcaster, aura of conquest, and fear all by level 10, along with first level hex goodies including shield & booming blade to use with warcaster, cause fear, and hexblade's curse.

    Beyond the +3 cha, changeling dont have all that much, but the couple cha skill proficiencies are welcome, and there's bound to be useful applications for the face changing ability, even if admittedly a more roguish class might make better use of it.
    Sadly, I have to agree on it being the case. No longer optimal. Have to rebuild my warforged dex based conquest pally at the moment. Thinking of keeping it the same stats and just taking the movement penalty to wear heavy armor. Otherwise I need to dump dex to get 15 strength. I like having a decent dex save and initiative bonus too much. Expeditious retreat will compensate for those times where I really need the movement to engage or flee.

    Yes, I really liked the idea of a Changeling with that sort of build. Particularly, the lore for changelings is that they totally assume the persona when they alter their form. You could have a normal, happy everyday form and a different CRUSH all who dare to challenge you form. As long as you remain medium size you can still appear to be a huge hulking terror and then back into your normal happy rainbow and sunshine self after they threat has been neutralized. Action to change your form though so you can't quite do the hulk out thing at the start of a fight. Maybe fluff it with the DM that as you get more angry your form starts to shift over a few rounds growing in size and shape.

  4. - Top - End - #514
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Long time lurker, first time posting.

    Been enamored with the Hexblade dip for a while and finally got into a high level campaign (level 12 at the moment, Conquest 11 + Hexblade 1). The thing is, this campaign has a very likely chance to go all the way to 20. Looking at the continued multiclass options, I would default to Conq 19 + Hex 1, but - as mentioned in the guide - Conq 16 + Hex 4 would still get every ASI.

    Has anybody had experience playing at level 20 with either setup? The fifth level spells and 30 foot auras would be nice, but having access to a Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, and a Pact Boon seems extremely tempting.

    To me it seems like it's the difference between powerful support utility (the 30 foot auras) and personal power (Agonizing Blast for awesome ranged options, Devil's Sight + Darkness, etc.).

    FWIW I've also thought about Conq 18 + Hex 2 to nab the Invocations anyway, but that misses an ASI (and a 5th level Paladin spell slot). I'm playing Variant Human trying to stack Sentinel + Shield Master + War Caster + Resilient CON so everything counts.

    Thoughts for a noob on these distinctions? Sorry if this was asked somewhere in the last 20 pages or so...
    Last edited by Sigtyr; 2019-12-04 at 11:08 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #515
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Agonising Blast really isn't that great on a Conquest Paladin, as most of the time your enemies are going to be within your Aura.

  6. - Top - End - #516
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigtyr View Post
    Long time lurker, first time posting.

    Been enamored with the Hexblade dip for a while and finally got into a high level campaign (level 12 at the moment, Conquest 11 + Hexblade 1). The thing is, this campaign has a very likely chance to go all the way to 20. Looking at the continued multiclass options, I would default to Conq 19 + Hex 1, but - as mentioned in the guide - Conq 16 + Hex 4 would still get every ASI.
    If you're looking at investing more than a single level dip in Hexblade, you probably want to invest more than 4 levels. Conquest 8/Hexblade 12 is a pretty good split to keep all your ASI and give you lots of magic versatility. Also gives the best spell DC for spamming fear via Rod of the Pact Keeper. Lots of fun and your main DPS will be agonizing blasts on foes locked in your aura.

    Paladin 7/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 12 is another one that is popular for magic options but you loose an ASI. Heightened Metamagic or Shadow Sorcerer Hound can provide disadvantage on saves vs your fear spells.

    That being said, you'll have a really hard time doing that MC. Every level in Conquest is a good level. Better than what you'd get from more warlock for fulfilling the controller tank role.

  7. - Top - End - #517
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    My general advice would be to pick up EITHER War Caster (if multiclassing) OR Resiliant Con, not both. If you go with War Caster you might also skip Sentinel.

    I also recommend skipping Shield Master entirely. It's decent, salvaged largely by the boost to dex saves, but shoving is already something you can do anyway. Shoving as a bonus action instead of one attack out of your attack action can be a worthwhile option, but is rarely worth the ASI, imo.

    At level 12 as a vuman with a hex dip you're looking at 1 bonus feat plus 2 ASIs. Assuming points buy, and given the hex dip, I'd make the two ASIs +2 charisma and Warcaster, with another +2 charisma next level at paladin 12. The bonus feat should, IMO, be one of: alert, inspiring leader, or Lucky. Sentinel and Resilient Con are also strong contenders, though are imo a step lower in this build due to their benefits being partially covered by warcaster which you'll already have. Other ok but imo maybe suboptimal choices include Healer, Shield Master, Polearm Master, Mage Slayer, Magic Initiate (wizard), Prodigy, Skilled, Tough, and Heavy Armor Master. All again are decent options, but IMO slightly lower tier than the others mentioned.


    From Pal 12, Hex 1, I'd go at least one more paladin level for 4th level paladin spells at Pal 13, because Find Greater Steed or Improved Find Steed or whatever it's called is a lot to pass up when it's only one level away.


    After that, you're right that there are a lot of options and they're all fairly valid. Straight paladin to 19th is the default suggestion, for cleansing touch, scornful rebuke, 5th level spells, aura extension, and two more ASIs - see the previous list for my suggestions.

    Alternatively, Squeezing one more warlock level in for the second short rest spell slot and a couple invocations is a decent option. Honestly, I'm not sure I'd bother with Agonizing blast though - you're a melee tank, not a blaster. Eldritch Blast or even just Toll the Dead on their own are already more than sufficient as fallback ranged options for when that isn't possible, and with a pegasus mount that shouldn't be too often. This version gets one less ASI, but with 20 cha and warcaster your essentials are already covered even without counting the bonus feat, so any one feat you want to fit in would be fine. Again I personally like alert, inspiring leader, and lucky.

    Next option is just finishing out hexblade to Pal 13 Hex 7. This is decent, eventually picks up short rest Fear slots, some slightly higher level invocations. I actually recommend Chain over Blade as your pact boon, lots of uses for an Imp familiar and gift of the ever living ones is probably a more relevant invocation to melee tanking than anything you'll get from book or blade. Not that bladelock invocations are bad, just that most of what they offer by warlock 7 you'll already have from paladin 13. Fingers crossed you'd already have access to at least a +1 magic sword by this point - if you don't think that's likely then blade pact becomes more tempting.

    Another option worth considering is finishing out the last six levels as Divine Soul sorcerer. Metamagic: heighten is a major boon to Conqueror's fear strats, and sorcadin is known to be good in general.


    A final (set of) option(s) to consider: since you're starting at level 12, that is in fact the lowest level you would need to be to still be able to pick up aura of conquest from pal 7 and Fear from warlock 5. Going this rounte means losing out on some damage from improved divine smite, but you'll be able to cast Fear a lot more than any paladin 9+ build would be able to do at this level. Still probably want to take at least one more paladin level for your 3rd ASI to round out Cha 20 + war caster + whatever you take for your vuman bonus feat. From there you could take more paladin and build into any of the above, or you could aim for lighter paladin builds like Pal8/lock12 which gets you +cha to melee damage again as a capstone if you go bladelock, which is more tempting if you're going to take 12+ levels, or Pal8/lock5/divine sorc 7 for heighten spell, more daily slots, and spirit guardians as a capstone, in which event I'd again go chain over blade for pact boon.


    IMO all of these are valid builds that do interesting and effective things between levels 12 and 20. Given your particular set of circumstances, I personally would lean towards one of the options that starts with Pal7/lock5. Those are really cool builds at levels 12+, but can be somewhat painful at levels 8-11. In this campaign you'll get to skip those painful levels entirely.


    Here's very specifically how I'd personally do it.

    Vuman Paladin (Conquest) 7, Warlock (Hexblade, Chain Boon) 5

    Base stats (points buy): Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15
    Human mods: +1 Str, +1 Cha
    ASIs:
    4 (pal 4): +2 Cha
    11 (hex 4) War Caster

    Starting Stats (at level 12): Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18

    Vuman Bonus Feat: Inspiring Presence

    Key Class Features: Defense Style, Divine Smite, Conquering Presence, Extra Attack, Aura of Protection, Hex Warrior, Hexblade's Curse, Chain Boon (Imp).

    Spell Slots:
    Long Rest: 4/3/-
    Short Rest: -/-/3

    Cantrips: Toll the Dead (or Eldritch Blast, any ranged fallback option really), Booming Blade
    Key Spells: Shield, Wrathful Smite, Cause Fear (for second level slots), Spiritual Weapon, Misty Step, Find Steed, Fear, maybe Bless if you run into fear-immune enemies with save based attacks.

    Note that, despite having Devil's Sight (mostly to fix Vuman's lack of darkvision), Darkness is probably not a key spell for you. You want your enemies to see you, you'll already be imposing disadvantage on them, and if you need advantage you can always shove them over. With your high Cha and aura of protection, you'll likely want your allies to be near you as well, so Darkness is just too disruptive, imo. Maybe keep it on your spells known so you can bust it out when relevant, but it shouldn't be a regular use spell, imo.

    Invocations: Gift of the Ever Living Ones, Devil's Sight, one other

    The third invocation can be anything, I recommend picking something based on your party and campaign. Beguiling Influence if you're the party's only face, Eldritch Sight if your party lacks a ritual caster with Detect Magic, Gift of the Depths in a maritime game, etc. If nothing else seems especially relevant, Misty Visions has a lot of utility. You ~can~ take Agonizing Blast here, but again ranged damage really shouldn't be your focus. If you're going to burn an invocation on enhancing Eldritch Blast, I'd go for Repelling Blast for the extra positioning utility.

    Future Levels:

    13: Pal 8, +2 cha
    14-20: Divine Soul Sorcerer 1-7, key pickups being accelerated daily spell slots (eventually more than making up the slots lost to warlock), Healing Word, Absorb Elements, Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell, with Spirit Guardians as a capstone. ASI at level 17: Alert, or maybe Lucky


    Wear the heaviest armor, fight and cast and aura with high cha, warcaster to cast shield and eventually absorb elements while wielding a shield, or cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack, plus advantage on concentration. You generate a ton of temp HP for the entire party with inspiring leader, you tank attention pretty well and maximize any healing used on you to boost the party's reserve HP efficiency, you've got aura of conquest with two Fears per short rest, enough to theoretically open every fight on average with a powerful cone of fear. You've got divine smite and hexblade's curse to bring the damage on powerful, fear-immune or high wis save boss monsters. You've got a decent fallback ranged option, solid utility, an intelligent, re-summonable warhorse mount, an intelligent, invisible, re-summonable, hands-having familiar, and a range of useful spellcasting options which ensure that, while you won't have the slots to cast spells every round, will at least ensure that the one or two spells you cast per encounter have a real impact.

    Moving forward, you'll first max out your charisma with one more paladin level, then move into sorcerer for more smites, absorb elements, heighten spell to make it much more likely a particular target fails their save on Fear - or at least has to burn an epic save - or quicken spell, which lets you get your combat opening Fear out as a bonus action. Alert as your ASI also lets you roll Initiative like you're a rogue to lock down fights sooner while ensuring you're never caught flat footed.



    Is that a better build than just Pal 19/ Lock 1? I don't know, maybe not. But it's an interesting build, and one you might not play outside of your specific situation of starting the game at 12th level, so that's what I'd go with.
    Last edited by Sception; 2019-12-04 at 03:15 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #518
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Great Guide, Great Threads!

    I am playing Descent into Avernus at D&D Adventure's League (DDAL), so the PHB+1 rules applies. I am half-elf and I'm currently Paladin 2 / Hex Warlock 1 (I'm convinced that the Hex Dip should be taken early). I'm not taking anymore Warlock levels. I'm probably only getting to level 13 or 14. So, I'm pumping Charisma to 20 and taking one feat.

    (Point Buy) Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16

    Mainly sword and board.
    Defense fighting style.
    Warlock spells are E. Blast, Mage Hand, Cause Fear, and Shield (I can't take Booming Blade because it's from SCAG (PHB+1)).
    DDAL players get a +1 weapon at 5th level. OR get a Ring of Protection at 5th as a faction member.

    I've convinced myself that I'm taking either War Caster, Sentinel, or Lucky at Paladin 12th level. And I'll change my mind 100 times.

    Three thoughts/questions.

    1. The Res/Con feat, for Paladins, is like more like getting expertise in Con saving throw (which, no doubt, is great). Since we're pumping Charisma, we're already getting good boost to Con saves. Yes, Res/Con would make it EVEN better, but since you already have the Aura of Protection bonus, why not go with War Caster for the other benefits?

    2. War Caster VS Sentinel. If you didn't have Booming Blade, would you be less likely to take War Caster and go with Sentinel instead?

    3. Regarding the Hex Dip and spells with Somatic component. If you are "sword and board" and have the Shield spell but you don't have War Caster, and you have a strict DM that holds you the somatic rule and therefore you can't make use of the Shield spell, would you choose a different spell from the Warlock list? For that matter, with the 1 level Hex Dip, what are the best two spells to take? A cases could be made for taking Wrathful Smite to allow more flexibility with your Paladin spells.

    Looking forward to the feedback. THX!
    Last edited by GoodGulfGas; 2020-01-14 at 10:27 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #519
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGulfGas View Post
    Great Guide, Great Threads!

    I am playing Descent into Avernus at D&D Adventure's League (DDAL), so the PHB+1 rules applies. I am half-elf and I'm currently Paladin 2 / Hex Warlock 1 (I'm convinced that the Hex Dip should be taken early). I'm not taking anymore Warlock levels. I'm probably only getting to level 13 or 14. So, I'm pumping Charisma to 20 and taking one feat.

    (Point Buy) Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16

    Mainly sword and board.
    Defense fighting style.
    Warlock spells are E. Blast, Mage Hand, Cause Fear, and Shield (I can't take Booming Blade because it's from SCAG (PHB+1)).
    DDAL players get a +1 weapon at 5th level. Also get a Ring of Protection at 5th as a faction member.

    I've convinced myself that I'm taking either War Caster, Sentinel, or Lucky at Paladin 12th level. And I'll change my mind 100 times.

    Three thoughts/questions.

    1. The Res/Con feat, for Paladins, is like more like getting expertise in Con saving throw (which, no doubt, is great). Since we're pumping Charisma, we're already getting good boost to Con saves. And I'll be getting a +1 from Ring of Protection. Yes, Res/Con would make it EVEN better, but since you already have the Aura of Protection bonus, why not go with War Caster for the other benefits?

    2. War Caster VS Sentinel. If you didn't have Booming Blade, would you be less likely to take War Caster and go with Sentinel instead?

    3. Regarding the Hex Dip and spells with Somatic component. If you are "sword and board" and have the Shield spell but you don't have War Caster, and you have a strict DM that holds you the somatic rule and therefore you can't make use of the Shield spell, would you choose a different spell from the Warlock list? For that matter, with the 1 level Hex Dip, what are the best two spells to take? A cases could be made for taking Wrathful Smite to allow more flexibility with you Paladin spells.

    Looking forward to the feedback. THX!
    Without an Odd Con score or Booming Blade, I'd probably go Sentinel to give you more control. Warcaster is still very strong but you'll have at least +8 to Con saves already at level 7. Controlling the battlefield is more important as a tank.

  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    So I'm playing a Githyanki Conquest Paladin right now, and the race feels like a perfect fit for the oath, thematically, and not a bad fit mechanically.

    I don't see them in the race list in the guide, so thought I'd throw that hat in the ring. I'm loving playing my terrifying alien from another plane who would happily kill an innocent person to get what he needs if he didn't think it would cause issues with his companions. The weird alienness of having grown up in a Githyanki creche, and lived in a timeless city without eating/drinking/sleeping for most of his life just adds to the fun. He also wears the skull of a demon on his helmet's visor that he took as a trophy in a raid with his fellow Githyanki soldiers back in the day, and loves to decorate his armor with other small trophies.

  11. - Top - End - #521
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    @Reevh Gith are in the UA subrace section.

    Longtime lurker here now. Started playing a Fallen Aasimar Conquest in my new lvl 3 campaign, where I will be the main tank.
    DM kinda ****ed me over by changing his opinion on multiclassing on short notice, so the hex dip build I had in mind died pretty quickly.
    So Im kinda here ruminating on how exactly I should use my ASIs and what to get.

    My stats atm are:

    14
    13
    16
    10
    13
    19

    I was thinking of using my first ASI to get to 15 strength and max out my Char.
    Now, what I was thinking about is that would I have to use my remaining ASIs to max out strength and when exactly should I choose a feat? Level 12 like some suggested here? And if yes, what feat? Resilient Con? Menacing? Sentinel? There is so much that Im pretty overwhelmed by this new situation in where I have to choose between ASIs and feats.
    My DM told me to **** maxing out STR since I will be tanking anyway, but Im concerned about not being able to shove ppl with only 15 STR.
    Also, anyone got any strats for grappling or flying enemies? My DM already teasered me how to make me hate my life.

    Thanks for any suggestions and reading my nub questions till the end.

  12. - Top - End - #522
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    @mindfvck: If by being the only tank you mean that you'll have several people fighting from range (as opposed to having lots of skirmishers, eg rogues and monks), shoving prone enemies might not be a good idea, so you may not have to worry too much about this. If the damage distribution is split between melee and ranged, enough for you to consider shoving enemies prone, depending on the initiative order, shoving enemies and following that up with spiritual weapon attacks (once you hit level 5 that is) can be worth it, assuming the initiative order favors shoving in the first place. Without knowing more about what the other players are playing (and specifically if they are playing ranged or melee), it's hard to know if shoving enemies prone would be a good idea most of the time, some of the time, or never at all.

    Specifically about your question regarding ASI's and feats. Since you'll be doing all/most of/enough tanking, I know that I would definitely want to grab a feat to boost my concentration. Now, since multiclassing is out, that means that I would go for resilient con over warcaster. Warcaster might be slightly better strictly for concentration checks in the early game, but resilient will catch up and eventually it will surpass warcaster, but what's more important, is that it provides a boost to all con saves, as opposed to warcaster (and con saves tend to be common and crucial enough to want a boost there). I'd definitely want resilient con before level 9, which is when you'll get access to the fear spell. Now, the question for me would be if I would want it at level 4 or at level 8 (since you are playing a non variant human). If you pick resilient con at level 8, that means that at level 4 you could bump str and charisma, so that you enjoy the +1 to your aura boost and to your DC (which will affect mainly how effective you are with conquering presence), plus you'll be able to wear heavy armor (for a much needed, from what I understand, AC boost) without suffering the speed penalty (which can hurt you a lot, given that you want to get to the face of the enemies, given that positioning matters when using the fear AoE of conquering presence -especially if playing with a grid, and given that you don't have good ranged attacks -which get even worse when you get extra attack, since object interaction will hurt those javelin throws as it limits them to one per turn). The downside is, that you'll have to use concentration spells more sparingly, since maintaining concentration will be very risky. This will hurt you the most at levels 5, 6 and especially 7, when it concerns wrathful smite. You should still consider using wrathful smite at levels 6 and 7, but it will be a lot more risky than if you already had resilient con. It will also hurt you when you would be using bless, particularly at level 5, which is when your blessed allies (ideally GWM's and SS's) would have extra attack, though at level 6 when you'll get the aura this is mitigated somewhat, especially if you have no more than 2 dprs in your group (as you should be the third target of the bless spell). Now, personally, I would prefer postponing resilient con, since the conquest paly have some decent ways of using their 1st and 2nd level spell slots without using concentration spells (smites, command, armor of agathys which you should consider upcasting to level 2, spiritual weapon and aid). So I'd grab a +1 to CHA and STR at level 4, even if that meant that I would probably limit my concentration options, mostly to:
    1) Risking bless and shield of faith (and thunderous smite, which is a pseudo concentration spell) for levels 1-4.
    2) Risking bless, shield of faith, thunderous smite (extra attack) for level 5.
    3) Bless, shield of faith, thunderous smite and risking a wrathful smite for levels 6-7.

    So yeah, I'd grab the CHA and STR boost at level 4, then I'd take resilient con at level 8, and at level 12 I would round up STR and CON to 16 and 18 respectively. I'd consider rounding up DEX and WIS with one ASI at level 16 or 19 too, as some important saves and checks (initiative included) would benefit from that. That means that you have one ASI remaining (at lvl 16 or 19), to use with something like inspiring leader, alert, lucky or even as a STR boost.

    ps: Making some of the enemies attacks suffer disadvantage might or might not be enough to keep your character up, depending on what you are fighting and on how many character are tanking enemy attacks. If you are doing this all alone, it definitely sucks that you can't multiclass at least for the shield spell, which would definitely be great in that scenario (and what is more, it definitely works nicely if the enemies suffer disadvantage). If you can get at least an ally to help you with tanking, the loss of the shield spell will be far less noticeable. And if you can get at least one ally to fight beside your character on a regular basis, and since you are going singleclass paly, consider changing your fighting style to protection (since palys don't have much to do with their reactions; that's not to say that OA's are not important, especially when you throw a smite on top -and OA's are usually a good time to smite, since you don't want an enemy going after your squishies at full strength, if at all; but getting a regular use out of your reaction will be worth it, if that rection is spent to keep your tanking buddy going; and that's important because of how important it would be to have a tanking buddy in the first place, since you are not multiclassing).
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-12-22 at 12:04 AM.
    Hacks!

  13. - Top - End - #523
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGulfGas View Post
    Great Guide, Great Threads!

    I am playing Descent into Avernus at D&D Adventure's League (DDAL), so the PHB+1 rules applies. I am half-elf and I'm currently Paladin 2 / Hex Warlock 1 (I'm convinced that the Hex Dip should be taken early). I'm not taking anymore Warlock levels. I'm probably only getting to level 13 or 14. So, I'm pumping Charisma to 20 and taking one feat.

    (Point Buy) Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16

    Mainly sword and board.
    Defense fighting style.
    Warlock spells are E. Blast, Mage Hand, Cause Fear, and Shield (I can't take Booming Blade because it's from SCAG (PHB+1)).
    DDAL players get a +1 weapon at 5th level. Also get a Ring of Protection at 5th as a faction member.

    I've convinced myself that I'm taking either War Caster, Sentinel, or Lucky at Paladin 12th level. And I'll change my mind 100 times.

    Three thoughts/questions.

    1. The Res/Con feat, for Paladins, is like more like getting expertise in Con saving throw (which, no doubt, is great). Since we're pumping Charisma, we're already getting good boost to Con saves. And I'll be getting a +1 from Ring of Protection. Yes, Res/Con would make it EVEN better, but since you already have the Aura of Protection bonus, why not go with War Caster for the other benefits?

    2. War Caster VS Sentinel. If you didn't have Booming Blade, would you be less likely to take War Caster and go with Sentinel instead?

    3. Regarding the Hex Dip and spells with Somatic component. If you are "sword and board" and have the Shield spell but you don't have War Caster, and you have a strict DM that holds you the somatic rule and therefore you can't make use of the Shield spell, would you choose a different spell from the Warlock list? For that matter, with the 1 level Hex Dip, what are the best two spells to take? A cases could be made for taking Wrathful Smite to allow more flexibility with your Paladin spells.

    Looking forward to the feedback. THX!
    Without making too many spoilers, con save proficiency will be a handy thing to have in Avernus anyway. However War Caster might be the preferred option so you don't have any problems with Shield.

    And fair warning, you're going to run into a lot of Magic Resistance, so getting those fear spells to land is going to be a lot harder by the time your Level 7 aura comes online. With that in mind, I would avoid taking Cause Fear as your Warlock spell. Something like Hex would be a little better to give you an option against enemies that won't be frightened(combos well with Spiritual Weapon too) and I don't think save-or-sucks are very good to have(Cause Fear is basically your Channel Divinity, except it requires concentration, only targets one creature, and...yeah actually it's probably the worst Warlock spell pick for you with the possible exception of Hellish Rebuke since nearly everything is either immune or resistant to fire). Shield and Hex are your best bets.

  14. - Top - End - #524
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    @mindfvck: If by being the only tank you mean that you'll have several people fighting from range (as opposed to having lots of skirmishers, eg rogues and monks), shoving prone enemies might not be a good idea, so you may not have to worry too much about this. If the damage distribution is split between melee and ranged, enough for you to consider shoving enemies prone, depending on the initiative order, shoving enemies and following that up with spiritual weapon attacks (once you hit level 5 that is) can be worth it, assuming the initiative order favors shoving in the first place. Without knowing more about what the other players are playing (and specifically if they are playing ranged or melee), it's hard to know if shoving enemies prone would be a good idea most of the time, some of the time, or never at all.

    Specifically about your question regarding ASI's and feats. Since you'll be doing all/most of/enough tanking, I know that I would definitely want to grab a feat to boost my concentration. Now, since multiclassing is out, that means that I would go for resilient con over warcaster. Warcaster might be slightly better strictly for concentration checks in the early game, but resilient will catch up and eventually it will surpass warcaster, but what's more important, is that it provides a boost to all con saves, as opposed to warcaster (and con saves tend to be common and crucial enough to want a boost there). I'd definitely want resilient con before level 9, which is when you'll get access to the fear spell. Now, the question for me would be if I would want it at level 4 or at level 8 (since you are playing a non variant human). If you pick resilient con at level 8, that means that at level 4 you could bump str and charisma, so that you enjoy the +1 to your aura boost and to your DC (which will affect mainly how effective you are with conquering presence), plus you'll be able to wear heavy armor (for a much needed, from what I understand, AC boost) without suffering the speed penalty (which can hurt you a lot, given that you want to get to the face of the enemies, given that positioning matters when using the fear AoE of conquering presence -especially if playing with a grid, and given that you don't have good ranged attacks -which get even worse when you get extra attack, since object interaction will hurt those javelin throws as it limits them to one per turn). The downside is, that you'll have to use concentration spells more sparingly, since maintaining concentration will be very risky. This will hurt you the most at levels 5, 6 and especially 7, when it concerns wrathful smite. You should still consider using wrathful smite at levels 6 and 7, but it will be a lot more risky than if you already had resilient con. It will also hurt you when you would be using bless, particularly at level 5, which is when your blessed allies (ideally GWM's and SS's) would have extra attack, though at level 6 when you'll get the aura this is mitigated somewhat, especially if you have no more than 2 dprs in your group (as you should be the third target of the bless spell). Now, personally, I would prefer postponing resilient con, since the conquest paly have some decent ways of using their 1st and 2nd level spell slots without using concentration spells (smites, command, armor of agathys which you should consider upcasting to level 2, spiritual weapon and aid). So I'd grab a +1 to CHA and STR at level 4, even if that meant that I would probably limit my concentration options, mostly to:
    1) Risking bless and shield of faith (and thunderous smite, which is a pseudo concentration spell) for levels 1-4.
    2) Risking bless, shield of faith, thunderous smite (extra attack) for level 5.
    3) Bless, shield of faith, thunderous smite and risking a wrathful smite for levels 6-7.

    So yeah, I'd grab the CHA and STR boost at level 4, then I'd take resilient con at level 8, and at level 12 I would round up STR and CON to 16 and 18 respectively. I'd consider rounding up DEX and WIS with one ASI at level 16 or 19 too, as some important saves and checks (initiative included) would benefit from that. That means that you have one ASI remaining (at lvl 16 or 19), to use with something like inspiring leader, alert, lucky or even as a STR boost.

    ps: Making some of the enemies attacks suffer disadvantage might or might not be enough to keep your character up, depending on what you are fighting and on how many character are tanking enemy attacks. If you are doing this all alone, it definitely sucks that you can't multiclass at least for the shield spell, which would definitely be great in that scenario (and what is more, it definitely works nicely if the enemies suffer disadvantage). If you can get at least an ally to help you with tanking, the loss of the shield spell will be far less noticeable. And if you can get at least one ally to fight beside your character on a regular basis, and since you are going singleclass paly, consider changing your fighting style to protection (since palys don't have much to do with their reactions; that's not to say that OA's are not important, especially when you throw a smite on top -and OA's are usually a good time to smite, since you don't want an enemy going after your squishies at full strength, if at all; but getting a regular use out of your reaction will be worth it, if that rection is spent to keep your tanking buddy going; and that's important because of how important it would be to have a tanking buddy in the first place, since you are not multiclassing).

    First of all, much thanks for the suggestions and for answering my questions!
    Now, I forgot to mention the party composition. It consists of a Shadow Sorcerer, Gloom Stalker Ranger with the current UA changes (yeah, dont ask me why thats allowed but not dipping one level intox), Soul Knife Rogue, a Berserker Barbarian and me.
    So it would be kind of viable to shove prone depending on the situation. At least in my head.
    The thing about me being the main tank: the barb is a dude who's only there for like 50% of the sessions and plays full damage. So tanking will be up to me alone most of the time, yes.
    Also talked to me DM yesterday and told him my concerns, about kinda ****ing me over with the sudden multiclass prohibition and MADness. He at least agreed to give me a Plate at lvl 5 and some Gauntlets of Ogre Power as my first item after some long argueing.
    Im also not sure about going Protect as FS, since I will probably mostly be alone in front. Thats why I went for Defensive, which seemed pretty good. But yeah, I hope at least that the Barb will help me somewhat lessen the burden on tanking.
    And wait, you can smite while OA? My DM told me last time I could not. What a bamboozle.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by mindfvck View Post
    And wait, you can smite while OA? My DM told me last time I could not. What a bamboozle.
    Your DM is wrong.

    Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon Attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage....
    It's any time you make a melee weapon Attack. Notice it doesn't say anything about Actions (in case your DM said it only works on Attack Action). An Opportunity Attack is an Attack, so it counts.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by atomjack View Post
    Your DM is wrong.


    It's any time you make a melee weapon Attack. Notice it doesn't say anything about Actions (in case your DM said it only works on Attack Action). An Opportunity Attack is an Attack, so it counts.

    Good to know and yeah, he said it would need an Attack action or BA. Seemed fishy, but I believed it and did not want to start arguing.
    Another quick question I can not seem to find via google: do you have your spell slots all the time, even without preparing the spells or do they come with the preparing of the spells?
    Like theoretically, you have not prepared any spells, are you still able to smite, because you do have the spell slots?

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by mindfvck View Post
    Good to know and yeah, he said it would need an Attack action or BA. Seemed fishy, but I believed it and did not want to start arguing.
    Another quick question I can not seem to find via google: do you have your spell slots all the time, even without preparing the spells or do they come with the preparing of the spells?
    Like theoretically, you have not prepared any spells, are you still able to smite, because you do have the spell slots?
    You always have your slots.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Pirate View Post
    Without making too many spoilers, con save proficiency will be a handy thing to have in Avernus anyway. However War Caster might be the preferred option so you don't have any problems with Shield.

    And fair warning, you're going to run into a lot of Magic Resistance, so getting those fear spells to land is going to be a lot harder by the time your Level 7 aura comes online. With that in mind, I would avoid taking Cause Fear as your Warlock spell. Something like Hex would be a little better to give you an option against enemies that won't be frightened(combos well with Spiritual Weapon too) and I don't think save-or-sucks are very good to have(Cause Fear is basically your Channel Divinity, except it requires concentration, only targets one creature, and...yeah actually it's probably the worst Warlock spell pick for you with the possible exception of Hellish Rebuke since nearly everything is either immune or resistant to fire). Shield and Hex are your best bets.
    Thanks. Regarding War Caster, it's going to be a while until I get to Paladin 12. Plenty of time to feel out what I'll need for the later part of the campaign.

    Regarding Hex, if Paladins didn't already have Divine Favor I would take Hex (I still might take it). They are comparable. The damage and the duration is different, but moving Hex to another creature uses a bonus action and Divine Favor is sort of "always on". Of course, it only lasts for a minute and does less damage, but it's still a nice little spell.

    I'm thinking about Expeditious Retreat. If you have a Steed via Find Steed, when you cast Exp. Retreat the Steed receives the spell as well. Would make for a very fast Steed. I know zipping around is the opposite of what a Conquistador should be doing, but it might be nice to have the option available.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    While there are a couple of spots where it might be nice, the Steed’s normal movement is going to be plenty. However, you’re going to need Mounted Combatant to keep it alive and I think you’re plenty taxed on feats as is.

    The fact that you can have it up for multiple encounters makes Hex superior to Divine Favor(damage type non-withstanding). Remember Divine Favor needs about about five successful attacks(or so) before it outperforms one Smite(even more when you’re facing a fiend) and you’ve only got one minute to do so. And again, Hex stacks on Spiritual Weapon, Divine Favor does not. Lastly, Hex can help if you’ve got a grappler in your party since you can give a monster disadvantage on strength or Dex checks. Also useful if there’s a rogue who likes to hide since you can give it disadvantage on wisdom checks.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Pirate View Post
    And again, Hex stacks on Spiritual Weapon, Divine Favor does not. Lastly, Hex can help if you’ve got a grappler in your party since you can give a monster disadvantage on strength or Dex checks. Also useful if there’s a rogue who likes to hide since you can give it disadvantage on wisdom checks.
    Okay, you've sold me on Hex! Using it with Eldritch Blast makes up for not having Agonizing Blast. So, I'd cast Hex & E. Blast on the first round and then S. Weapon and E. Blast on the second round (or vice versa).

  21. - Top - End - #531
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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    It seems to be the unpopular opinion but I think Paladin 20 is stronger than ANY multiclass combo and especially for the Conquest Paladin.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    This may be true, but how many people play to 20? D&D Beyond and WotC both say most never reach 15.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Pirate View Post
    While there are a couple of spots where it might be nice, the Steed’s normal movement is going to be plenty. However, you’re going to need Mounted Combatant to keep it alive and I think you’re plenty taxed on feats as is.

    The fact that you can have it up for multiple encounters makes Hex superior to Divine Favor(damage type non-withstanding). Remember Divine Favor needs about about five successful attacks(or so) before it outperforms one Smite(even more when you’re facing a fiend) and you’ve only got one minute to do so. And again, Hex stacks on Spiritual Weapon, Divine Favor does not. Lastly, Hex can help if you’ve got a grappler in your party since you can give a monster disadvantage on strength or Dex checks. Also useful if there’s a rogue who likes to hide since you can give it disadvantage on wisdom checks.
    In addition to voting for the point re: using Hex to give a monster/BBEG disadvantage on STR or DEX checks ... give them disadvantage on DEX and your Fireball-tossing mage will love you forever!

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardon View Post
    In addition to voting for the point re: using Hex to give a monster/BBEG disadvantage on STR or DEX checks ... give them disadvantage on DEX and your Fireball-tossing mage will love you forever!
    Hex doesn't affect Saving Throws unfortunately. So, their resistance to fireball is unchanged. Makes slippery foes easier to grapple though.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildarm View Post
    Hex doesn't affect Saving Throws unfortunately. So, their resistance to fireball is unchanged. Makes slippery foes easier to grapple though.
    OTOH it does hamper a creature trying to grapple or get out of web/entangle.
    But yeah it doesn't affect saving throws.

    For the uninitated, Saving Throws =/= Attack Rolls =/= Ability Checks. Skill checks are a type of ability check, same as initiative.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarChampion View Post
    OTOH it does hamper a creature trying to grapple or get out of web/entangle.
    But yeah it doesn't affect saving throws.

    For the uninitated, Saving Throws =/= Attack Rolls =/= Ability Checks. Skill checks are a type of ability check, same as initiative.
    Just thinking out loud. If you can get Hex on an enemy before Initiative is rolled, you could choose Dex checks and thus cause the enemy to have disadvantage on the initiative roll.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodGulfGas View Post
    Just thinking out loud. If you can get Hex on an enemy before Initiative is rolled, you could choose Dex checks and thus cause the enemy to have disadvantage on the initiative roll.
    If you were starting in a non-hostile setting you could probably swing it at my table. It all comes down to if the DM decides an initiative roll is needed in response to you starting to cast. This would be the case of a foe aware of your presence and prepared to fight.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Could work if you'd cast it earlier and were just moving it to a new opponent.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Pirate View Post
    Could work if you'd cast it earlier and were just moving it to a new opponent.
    Had not thought of that. An interesting option. I ended up switching away from Hex on my conquest pally as my DM ruled that casting a spell is a noticeable and hostile action. I have too many competing options for my bonus action and concentration. Without an effective out of combat use for Hex, I ended up never using it. Expeditious Retreat was often the better choice in Tier 2 to just close with more distant enemies as a bonus action.

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    Default Re: The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

    In general initiative is rolled in reaction to the declaration of aggressive intent. You want to cast an offensive spell like hex? Everyone roll initiative. If someone wasn't aware combat was about to happen then maybe the DM says they're surprised until their initiative rolls around, but their initiative is still locked in before you have a chance to hex them.

    Tables will vary of course.

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