A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    A divine-flavoured class; other names could be Incarnation, Messiah, Prophet, etc. You're the living embodiment of your deity, or a new deity rising to power, or even a deposed/dead one seeking to reclaim your status. Arguably a replacement for clerics thematically if not mechanics-wise. Started out as an attempt to make Daemon (from the TV series Reboot), before I realised her physical power and mind-control abilities were too broken to use pre-epic.

    Avatar

    Alignment: Any.

    Hit Die: d8.

    Class Skills
    The Avatar's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Skill Points per Level: 8 + Int modifier

    Avatar
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
    1st
    +1
    +2
    +2
    +2
    Divinity, Domains, Turn/Rebuke Undead
    2nd
    +2
    +3
    +3
    +3
    Damage Reduction, Miracle (1st)
    3rd
    +3
    +3
    +3
    +3
    Unearthly Grace
    4th
    +4
    +4
    +4
    +4
    Miracle (2nd)
    5th
    +5
    +4
    +4
    +4
    Discern, Spell Resistance
    6th
    +6
    +5
    +5
    +5
    Miracle (3rd)
    7th
    +7
    +5
    +5
    +5
    Energy Resistance (5)
    8th
    +8
    +6
    +6
    +6
    Miracle (4th), Domain Mastery
    9th
    +9
    +6
    +6
    +6
    Flight
    10th
    +10
    +7
    +7
    +7
    Miracle (5th)
    11th
    +11
    +7
    +7
    +7
    Energy Resistance (10)
    12th
    +12
    +8
    +8
    +8
    Miracle (6th)
    13th
    +13
    +8
    +8
    +8
    Improved Damage Reduction
    14th
    +14
    +9
    +9
    +9
    Miracle (7th), Improved Domain Mastery
    15th
    +15
    +9
    +9
    +9
    Energy Resistance (20)
    16th
    +16
    +10
    +10
    +10
    Miracle (8th)
    17th
    +17
    +10
    +10
    +10
    Aura of Glory
    18th
    +18
    +11
    +11
    +11
    Miracle (9th)
    19th
    +19
    +11
    +11
    +11
    Energy Resistance (30)
    20th
    +20
    +12
    +12
    +12
    Apotheosis, Miracle (10th)

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Avatar.

    Weapon and Armour Proficiencies
    Avatars are proficient with all simple weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). An Avatar is also proficient with her deity's favored weapon.

    Divinity (Ex)
    An Avatar is a divine entity. At first level her type changes to outsider (native) and she gains the alignment subtypes (evil, lawful, etc.) matching her alignment. Her natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and any weapons she wields are treated as weapons of the alignments matching her alignment subtypes. For the purpose of raise dead and similar effects an Avatar is treated as a creature of her original type.

    An Avatar retains her alignment subtypes even if she changes her actual alignment, unless she also recieves an atonement spell to fully adopt her new alignment (in which case her alignment subtypes change to match her new alignment).

    Domains (Su)
    An Avatar has access to her deity's portfolio, or to a portfolio of her own. She gains the granted powers of all her deity's domains (subject to DM approval), and the domain spells from those domains are treated as cleric spells for the purpose of her Miracle class feature (see below). At the DM's option, an Avatar that doesn't worship another deity may select up to four domains for this class feature, which must include the alignment domains (e.g. Evil, Law, etc.) matching her alignment.

    Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su)
    As the cleric class feature.

    Damage Reduction (Su)
    Beginning at 2nd level an Avatar gains damage reduction equal to one-half her class level. This damage reduction is overcome by any weapon of an alignment that opposes her own on at least one axis, or by any weapon of an extreme alignment (lawful good, chaotic evil, etc.) if she is true neutral.

    Improved Damage Reduction
    At 13th level, an Avatar's damage reduction improves to three-quarters of her class level and can only be overcome by weapons that meet multiple criteria, as shown below.
    Spoiler: Overcoming Avatar DR
    Show

    Avatar Alignment Weapons That Overcome Damage Reduction...
    Lawful Good Chaotic and evil
    Neutral Good Evil and adamantine
    Chaotic Good Lawful and evil
    Lawful Neutral Chaotic and silver
    True Neutral Adamantine and any extreme alignment (lawful good, chaotic evil, etc.)
    Chaotic Neutral Lawful and cold iron
    Lawful Evil Chaotic and good
    Neutral Evil Good and adamantine
    Chaotic Evil Lawful and good

    Miracle (Sp)
    Beginning at 2nd level, an Avatar's will can be imposed on reality itself. Three times per day, she may use miracle as a spell-like ability. This functions as the spell, with the following provisos:


    • the effective spell level of the miracle is equal to one-half the Avatar's class level
    • the miracle can duplicate any cleric spell (or spell from the Avatar's domains) with a spell level equal to or lower than the miracle's effective spell level -1
    • the miracle can duplicate any other spell with a spell level equal to or lower than the miracle's effective spell level -2
    • the miracle can perform other effects of similar or greater power to those described above, but these applications are always subject to DM approval and may require an XP cost


    As with any other spell-like ability, the Avatar need not pay any XP costs (except for very powerful effects as described above) or provide expensive material components, though she must provide a suitable focus component if necessary.

    The Avatar may apply the effects of Empower Spell-Like Ability and similar feats to the miracle at will, as though it were a spell-like ability duplicating a 0th-level spell. Caster level for all effects is equal to her class level, and any saving throws are Charisma-based.

    Unearthly Grace (Su)
    At 3rd level an Avatar adds her Charisma bonus to all her saving throws and as a deflection bonus to her Armour Class.

    Discern (Su)
    At 5th level an Avatar gains detect magic and detect chaos/evil/good/law as constant, inherent supernatural abilities out to a radius of 10 feet per class level in all directions. She need not concentrate to use these abilities, and furthermore they automatically detect the presence of any holy (and unholy) symbols within their range.

    Spell Resistance (Ex)
    At 5th level an Avatar gains Spell Resistance and Adaptive Spell Resistance as bonus feats.

    Energy Resistance (Su)
    At 7th level, an Avatar gains energy resistance 5 against most forms of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). This improves to energy resistance 10 at 11th level, energy resistance 20 at 15th level, and energy resistance 30 at 19th level.

    Domain Mastery (Sp)
    At 8th level, an Avatar may use the 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells from her domains three times per day each as spell-like abilities. Caster level for all effects is equal to her class level, and any saving throws are Charisma-based.

    Improved Domain Mastery
    At 14th level, an Avatar may use the 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells from her domains at will, and may use the 4th-, 5th-, and 6th-level spells from those domains three times per day.

    Flight (Ex or Su)
    At 9th level an Avatar gains a fly speed of 60 feet with perfect maneuverability. She permanently sprouts wings of a particular type (feathered, batlike, insectile) when first gaining this ability, but may also choose to fly without wings (in which case this class feature becomes a supernatural ability). This decision cannot be changed unless she goes through a profound spiritual change (typically by changing alignments and receiving an atonement spell).

    Aura of Glory (Su)
    At 17th level, an Avatar can persuade, manipulate, seduce, trick, cow, corrupt, inspire, or otherwise convert creatures to her worship. She chooses one of Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate, and thereafter gains a bonus on that skill equal to her class level. She may use Bluff and Intimidate to convert creatures to a fanatic attitude just as she would with Diplomacy, and creatures she converts to fanaticism remain her devoted worshippers indefinitely. Once she chooses a skill to benefit with this class feature she cannot change her decision, save as for Flight (see above).

    Apotheosis (Ex)
    At 20th level an Avatar becomes a true deity - whether the personification of her god or a god unto herself. She gains Divine Rank 0 (and all the associated benefits), and gains an additional Divine Rank with each epic class level she takes.

    Additionally, she may may use the 4th-, 5th-, and 6th-level spells from her domains at will, and may use the 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells from those domains three times per day.

    New Feat

    Miracle Worker
    You call call upon your divine powers more frequently.

    Prerequisites
    Avatar level 2nd.

    Benefits
    You may use your miracle spell-like ability one extra time each day.

    Special
    You may select this feat more than once. Its effects stack.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-12-07 at 02:46 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    I think the miracle power would make it better than tier 2.
    I mean do you consider a cleric becomes tier 2 just because he delays of 3 levels his progression?
    Any cleric spell but three level later is still very cool.
    Then the epic progression is way too quick: you gain one level in epic and you immediately have alter reality.(but that does not matters in choosing tier: anyway epic is total nonsense)
    Last edited by noob; 2017-12-02 at 08:18 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    How does Miracle progress into 10th!?

    EDIT: To clarify, getting 10th level spells kinda "opens the gate" to allow players with practiced spellcaster to get wayy higher level spells.

    There has got to be a way to abuse early-epic-improved spell capacity.
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2017-12-03 at 12:29 AM.
    Spoiler: List of Things You Don't Need To Know
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I think the miracle power would make it better than tier 2.
    I mean do you consider a cleric becomes tier 2 just because he delays of 3 levels his progression?
    Any cleric spell but three level later is still very cool.
    Then the epic progression is way too quick: you gain one level in epic and you immediately have alter reality.(but that does not matters in choosing tier: anyway epic is total nonsense)
    Fair enough, I wasn't sure how it would stack up vs. Tier 1/2 classes. The chassis is better than almost any other class, and the miracles sacrifice having loads of spell slots in exchange for a lot of versatility.

    And yeah, you'll be a Greater Deity by level 25, but campaigns break down entirely at that point anyways haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    How does Miracle progress into 10th!?

    EDIT: To clarify, getting 10th level spells kinda "opens the gate" to allow players with practiced spellcaster to get wayy higher level spells.

    There has got to be a way to abuse early-epic-improved spell capacity.
    The 10th-level miracle is one step better than the core miracle - it will allow you to duplicate any cleric spell (or any spell from your domains) of 9th-level or lower, and any other spell of 8th level or lower.

    Note that the miracles are spell-like abilities, so no Improved Spell Capacity (or Epic Spellcasting) shenanigans are allowed. Also Practiced Spellcaster still has a hard limit of your character level.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Banned
     
    Jormengand's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    In the Playground, duh.

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    So, turn or rebuke anyone ("ToRA"?) and a monk capstone at first level. Glorious. You also have an outsider chassis which is generally considered borderline T4-5 on its own.

    The domains ability rewards taking a deity with a long domain list, which is a bit silly.

    Damage reduction is probably too much strapped to the outsider chassis: you can grab MWP (or a neat EWP if you can think of one you want) and beat people up in melee about as well as a fighter.

    You can have empower SLA and quicken SLA on your miracle effect very quickly. Is mortalbane a "Similar feat", since it works as a meta-SLA in a sense? The miracle only seems able to emulate spells of exactly the correct level, not the correct level or lower. It's also too strong with extra turning or other ways to get extra ToRA attempts, and finally, you are casting spontaneously off a standard full-caster list, which is generally considered to make you tier zero, not tier two.

    I want to point out something about level 3. This is the point where clerics, a T1 class, are coming into their second-level spells. Suppose they have enough wisdom for a bonus spell of each level, they have 4 orisons, 4 1st and 3 2nd. They also have ToRU. So, their second-level slots could include include spiritual weapon, a spell which does up to 3d6+3 damage over 3 rounds if they're lucky, for example. They're also sitting there with no DR, with a ToRU which they don't have a good enough CHA for, and with AC 20 touch 10.

    You don't have access to decent spells yet, but what you do have is enough skills to make a rogue cry, AC 22 touch 16 because hey, you actually have a max dex bonus worth a damn, and ToRA, which is absolutely insane. Oh but don't worry, because you have a +7 to all your saves before you actually add the relevant ability score.

    Like, seriously, let me point out that if you're fighting that cleric, if you have Improved Turning (why wouldn't you), if you use ToRA on the cleric, you roll a d20. If you roll a 7 or more, then guess what? That cleric loses. You're free to, for ten rounds, stand there pinging away at him with whatever weapon you possess, which is a little bit ridiculous. If he's near your alignment, though, you rebuke him instead, meaning that you can just run up and hit him with a sword. Or whatever, honestly.

    If you're doing something other than fight, then you have a bunch of skills which actually allow you to do things and the cleric, quite honestly, doesn't. He's stuck casting find traps or whatever while you use your eight skills to do something ad infinitum. You might say a rogue can do that too. The difference is that if you do get into trouble, you can just turn or rebuke whatever you end up fighting.

    At fourth level, you get something which is one of the main draws of VoP, but you don't get the drawbacks. At level 5, you get the favoured soul's seventeenth-level class feature, only you get a better maneuverability. I don't think there's any printed class feature which gives you perfect maneuverability, and besides, even wizards are spending spell slots to fly (and not for very long) at this level. At sixth level, you get a buff to your primary stat, which means more deflect AC, more saves, and better miracles. You're also casting second-level spells, but you might actually prefer using ToRA normally to using it for miracles.That said, you can get haste, because it's abnormally low level on some lists. This doesn't actually mean you can get it before a sorcerer, though, but it does mean that you're not getting it slower than one (and with enough extra turning, you're still getting more of them than sorcerer). You also get dispel magic at this level.

    At 7th level, you get immunity to fireball. Wait, what? Okay, do the maths. The average damage fireball does at this level is 24 or 25. You're not failing that reflex save (you get +10+dex to the save, assuming you're putting your 18 in CHA) and passing the save will reduce the damage to 12, and then your resistance to everything 10 will reduce the damage to 2. So near enough immunity. You also will get another +2 to the save next level, if that doesn't convince you.

    8th is the level where you have 3rd-level spells spontaneously cast off the cleric list, which are still having to compete with actually just using ToRA to turn or rebuke people (you also get noncleric 2nds like dimension door, suggestion and alter self). It's also the level where your charisma just hit 22, which means you have 12+stat to all saves, +10+base armour bonus+ base shield bonus+dex to AC (the 10 is armour enhancement, shield enhancement and dexterity). So if you're wearing a mithril breastplate and a heavy shield, and have dex 14 then you get an AC of 29 touch 18 FF 27, without needing inherently magical equipment. Your AC in a loincloth with a pot lid is still 22! This is all before you get the item of charisma which you'll obviously have. And you're casting 3rd-level spells spontaneously off the cleric list, but that's okay because it's probably not actually the best use of your action!

    A usually-banned feat as a bonus feat at ninth level is pretty classy too.

    This nonsense continues up in levels - at 16th, let's take as an example, you have a charisma of 18 base + 4 levelling + 4 might + 6 cloak of charisma = 32, which means your CHA modifier is 11, assuming you're not reading any +CHA books. Your saves are 21+stat, meaning that you can shrug off epic spells (DC 20+stat) without necessarily needing to roll. Your AC is 29+base armour bonus+base shield bonus+DEX bonus, which is potentially about 38 even if we're not splurging for medium armour proficiency (we're busy taking extra turning). You can cast 7th-level cleric spells or 6th-level anything spells. Spontaneously. At this point we're getting into the region of "Probably better than ToRA but ToRA is still good". You have resistance to everything 30 and DR 12

    Aura of Glory I would complain about but honestly it's tame compared to anything else. Apotheosis is silly and that kind of effect should be restricted to mid-epic. Fortunately the deflection to AC doesn't stack.




    Again, you need to choose what you want this class to do, apart from "Everything". At the moment, you're just making a stronger full caster, and a stronger fighter, and a stronger rogue, all rolled into one.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    You aimed to hit the fences without going over, and went over.

    First, while the limited uses per day does help with balance against the concern of being able to effectively spontaneously cast spells from any list, the fact that your miracle SLA is, indeed, a full-blown miracle starting from level 2 (even if the spell duplication effect is limited) is kinda broken. I'd suggest restrict it so you get the access to spells beyond the cleric list no earlier than level 9, then only allow the "special effect" option at level 15+, and probably also make the effective level beyond the domains a bit more limited (like it starts with cleric spells of level -2, then when other lists are unlocked cleric spells of level -1 and other spells of level -3 until when the special effects are unlocked improve it to level -2).

    Second, Leadership as a bonus feat? There's a reason that Thrallherd is considered a broken PrC and Leadership is often banned; while I'll acknowledge that it does stand to reason that a rising deity should acquire followers, I'd leave it to the DM to decide between the feat vs roleplaying a religious movement. It might even be interesting to see a deposed god who isn't interested in acquiring followers, and instead wants revenge on the pantheon that ousted him or just wants to be left alone (in which case, pretending to be a wizard or archivist could be an interesting cover).

    Third, the resistance is universal, including Force and Negative (for which resistance is rarer than a needle in a haystack the size of a city block), with no regard whatsoever to the domains? (we need a jawdrop emoji) I could understand elemental domains gaining appropriate resistance, maybe even Death or Deathbound gaining Negative Resist and the Force Domain gaining Force Resist, but just giving everything to everyone? Unless the official deity stats indicate that all deities have resistance to everything, this feature should really vary by domain... and I'm kind of thinking it doesn't even have to be limited to just resistance. Maybe Air Domain grants flight (instead of it being a baked-in feature), maybe Travel grants another SLA teleport with range increasing by level, maybe Earth grants tremorsense, etc (get creative).

    Finally, I see absolutely nothing referencing your holy symbols. Even if the proper divine Holy Symbol powers don't activate before you hit 20 it doesn't mean you can't give something related to them earlier, such as some sort of Detect Holy Symbol (you know if someone you meet is carrying your symbol on their person, even if it is hidden, and you can sense the presence of your holy symbols even if hidden within secret rooms or compartments albeit it doesn't tell you how to get to them), and at higher levels maybe even the ability to use a scrying on known to exist holy symbols held by willing individuals as an SLA (maybe even throw in the ability to appear in their dreams to communicate).

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    So, turn or rebuke anyone ("ToRA"?) and a monk capstone at first level. Glorious. You also have an outsider chassis which is generally considered borderline T4-5 on its own.

    The domains ability rewards taking a deity with a long domain list, which is a bit silly.

    Damage reduction is probably too much strapped to the outsider chassis: you can grab MWP (or a neat EWP if you can think of one you want) and beat people up in melee about as well as a fighter.

    You can have empower SLA and quicken SLA on your miracle effect very quickly. Is mortalbane a "Similar feat", since it works as a meta-SLA in a sense? The miracle only seems able to emulate spells of exactly the correct level, not the correct level or lower. It's also too strong with extra turning or other ways to get extra ToRA attempts, and finally, you are casting spontaneously off a standard full-caster list, which is generally considered to make you tier zero, not tier two.

    I want to point out something about level 3. This is the point where clerics, a T1 class, are coming into their second-level spells. Suppose they have enough wisdom for a bonus spell of each level, they have 4 orisons, 4 1st and 3 2nd. They also have ToRU. So, their second-level slots could include include spiritual weapon, a spell which does up to 3d6+3 damage over 3 rounds if they're lucky, for example. They're also sitting there with no DR, with a ToRU which they don't have a good enough CHA for, and with AC 20 touch 10.

    You don't have access to decent spells yet, but what you do have is enough skills to make a rogue cry, AC 22 touch 16 because hey, you actually have a max dex bonus worth a damn, and ToRA, which is absolutely insane. Oh but don't worry, because you have a +7 to all your saves before you actually add the relevant ability score.

    Like, seriously, let me point out that if you're fighting that cleric, if you have Improved Turning (why wouldn't you), if you use ToRA on the cleric, you roll a d20. If you roll a 7 or more, then guess what? That cleric loses. You're free to, for ten rounds, stand there pinging away at him with whatever weapon you possess, which is a little bit ridiculous. If he's near your alignment, though, you rebuke him instead, meaning that you can just run up and hit him with a sword. Or whatever, honestly.

    If you're doing something other than fight, then you have a bunch of skills which actually allow you to do things and the cleric, quite honestly, doesn't. He's stuck casting find traps or whatever while you use your eight skills to do something ad infinitum. You might say a rogue can do that too. The difference is that if you do get into trouble, you can just turn or rebuke whatever you end up fighting.

    At fourth level, you get something which is one of the main draws of VoP, but you don't get the drawbacks. At level 5, you get the favoured soul's seventeenth-level class feature, only you get a better maneuverability. I don't think there's any printed class feature which gives you perfect maneuverability, and besides, even wizards are spending spell slots to fly (and not for very long) at this level. At sixth level, you get a buff to your primary stat, which means more deflect AC, more saves, and better miracles. You're also casting second-level spells, but you might actually prefer using ToRA normally to using it for miracles.That said, you can get haste, because it's abnormally low level on some lists. This doesn't actually mean you can get it before a sorcerer, though, but it does mean that you're not getting it slower than one (and with enough extra turning, you're still getting more of them than sorcerer). You also get dispel magic at this level.

    At 7th level, you get immunity to fireball. Wait, what? Okay, do the maths. The average damage fireball does at this level is 24 or 25. You're not failing that reflex save (you get +10+dex to the save, assuming you're putting your 18 in CHA) and passing the save will reduce the damage to 12, and then your resistance to everything 10 will reduce the damage to 2. So near enough immunity. You also will get another +2 to the save next level, if that doesn't convince you.

    8th is the level where you have 3rd-level spells spontaneously cast off the cleric list, which are still having to compete with actually just using ToRA to turn or rebuke people (you also get noncleric 2nds like dimension door, suggestion and alter self). It's also the level where your charisma just hit 22, which means you have 12+stat to all saves, +10+base armour bonus+ base shield bonus+dex to AC (the 10 is armour enhancement, shield enhancement and dexterity). So if you're wearing a mithril breastplate and a heavy shield, and have dex 14 then you get an AC of 29 touch 18 FF 27, without needing inherently magical equipment. Your AC in a loincloth with a pot lid is still 22! This is all before you get the item of charisma which you'll obviously have. And you're casting 3rd-level spells spontaneously off the cleric list, but that's okay because it's probably not actually the best use of your action!

    A usually-banned feat as a bonus feat at ninth level is pretty classy too.

    This nonsense continues up in levels - at 16th, let's take as an example, you have a charisma of 18 base + 4 levelling + 4 might + 6 cloak of charisma = 32, which means your CHA modifier is 11, assuming you're not reading any +CHA books. Your saves are 21+stat, meaning that you can shrug off epic spells (DC 20+stat) without necessarily needing to roll. Your AC is 29+base armour bonus+base shield bonus+DEX bonus, which is potentially about 38 even if we're not splurging for medium armour proficiency (we're busy taking extra turning). You can cast 7th-level cleric spells or 6th-level anything spells. Spontaneously. At this point we're getting into the region of "Probably better than ToRA but ToRA is still good". You have resistance to everything 30 and DR 12

    Aura of Glory I would complain about but honestly it's tame compared to anything else. Apotheosis is silly and that kind of effect should be restricted to mid-epic. Fortunately the deflection to AC doesn't stack.




    Again, you need to choose what you want this class to do, apart from "Everything". At the moment, you're just making a stronger full caster, and a stronger fighter, and a stronger rogue, all rolled into one.
    Thanks for the feedback, I've trimmed a bunch of things from the class now. My original reasoning, point by point:

    0) I aimed for tier 2 or higher so I'm not too worried about being better than fighters or monks. Outsider type allows alter self shenanigans at level 8... but at that point other classes can cast polymorph. Otherwise it's just immunity to a few spells.

    1) Authority was something that I wanted to include on flavour grounds (virtually all my homebrew dealing with turning is focused around expanding it beyond just undead - why can a good cleric turn a neutral skeleton but not an actual demon?!). I tried to balance it with the turn resistance clause (which would help the aforementioned PC classes resist Authority), but it's quite possibly broken. Reduced to just turn/rebuke undead.

    2) For miracle, I figured that if you invest a whole "SLA-Metamagic" feat you deserve the benefits, given that you already have an effective metamagic adjustment of +1/+2 due to the limitations of the miracle. I'm not familiar with Mortalbane though. I also felt that although you could get a whole bunch of miracles via high Cha and feats etc, the spell level limitations and lack of actual spell slots would balance it out. Edited to set a hard limit of 3 uses per day, independent of turn/rebuke undead attempts.

    3) I've pushed Flight back to replace Leadership and deleted the enhancement bonuses (I admit Leadership was a lazy add, just had a blank level and thought "well, I suppose an Avatar should have worshippers" haha). I don't really think it's overpowered, even if you still get it earlier than favoured souls though.

    4) Re: fireball - rogues get immunity at level 2 haha! I used favoured souls as a rough guideline for when the resistance comes online but have revamped it now (slower progression, standard energy types).

    5) Aura of Glory - now a standard gaze attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avigor View Post
    You aimed to hit the fences without going over, and went over.

    First, while the limited uses per day does help with balance against the concern of being able to effectively spontaneously cast spells from any list, the fact that your miracle SLA is, indeed, a full-blown miracle starting from level 2 (even if the spell duplication effect is limited) is kinda broken. I'd suggest restrict it so you get the access to spells beyond the cleric list no earlier than level 9, then only allow the "special effect" option at level 15+, and probably also make the effective level beyond the domains a bit more limited (like it starts with cleric spells of level -2, then when other lists are unlocked cleric spells of level -1 and other spells of level -3 until when the special effects are unlocked improve it to level -2).

    Second, Leadership as a bonus feat? There's a reason that Thrallherd is considered a broken PrC and Leadership is often banned; while I'll acknowledge that it does stand to reason that a rising deity should acquire followers, I'd leave it to the DM to decide between the feat vs roleplaying a religious movement. It might even be interesting to see a deposed god who isn't interested in acquiring followers, and instead wants revenge on the pantheon that ousted him or just wants to be left alone (in which case, pretending to be a wizard or archivist could be an interesting cover).

    Third, the resistance is universal, including Force and Negative (for which resistance is rarer than a needle in a haystack the size of a city block), with no regard whatsoever to the domains? (we need a jawdrop emoji) I could understand elemental domains gaining appropriate resistance, maybe even Death or Deathbound gaining Negative Resist and the Force Domain gaining Force Resist, but just giving everything to everyone? Unless the official deity stats indicate that all deities have resistance to everything, this feature should really vary by domain... and I'm kind of thinking it doesn't even have to be limited to just resistance. Maybe Air Domain grants flight (instead of it being a baked-in feature), maybe Travel grants another SLA teleport with range increasing by level, maybe Earth grants tremorsense, etc (get creative).

    Finally, I see absolutely nothing referencing your holy symbols. Even if the proper divine Holy Symbol powers don't activate before you hit 20 it doesn't mean you can't give something related to them earlier, such as some sort of Detect Holy Symbol (you know if someone you meet is carrying your symbol on their person, even if it is hidden, and you can sense the presence of your holy symbols even if hidden within secret rooms or compartments albeit it doesn't tell you how to get to them), and at higher levels maybe even the ability to use a scrying on known to exist holy symbols held by willing individuals as an SLA (maybe even throw in the ability to appear in their dreams to communicate).
    Thanks also for the feedback! I think most of the trouble with miracle goes away now that it's 3/day; I've removed Leadership and scaled the energy resistance (and removed the resistance to exotic types).

    Holy symbol mechanics is a cool idea, but I'll leave that to be covered by miracles somehow. I've added in some divination via Discern though.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    So as much as I think Jorm can be overzealous in calling things OP, in this case I have to agree... I'm wondering if this might be better as a special-case, longer-than-normal PRC - say 12-15 levels and one of the prereqs is declaring intent during character creation... Maybe as a bonus for declaring intent you gain planetouched and alignment subtypes at creation upgrading to Outsider (Native, alignment) when you take your first level in the class... (May also need a penalty for declaring intent and not taking first level of the class by 10th lvl...)

    Also you mention Atonement several times, which seems a bit off to me... If you can do something that would require atonement, are you really an Avatar in the first place? Also, if you are the incarnation of a Deity or of an aspect of one, who would you go to to seek atonement? Might I suggest replacing this with a Ritual of Re-alignment you perform for your self that requires equivalent material, Focus, Divine Focus, and XP costs?

    EDIT: Ninja'd by OP... Reviewing changes now...
    Last edited by Ranged Ranger; 2017-12-03 at 07:07 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranged Ranger View Post
    So as much as I think Jorm can be overzealous in calling things OP, in this case I have to agree... I'm wondering if this might be better as a special-case, longer-than-normal PRC - say 12-15 levels and one of the prereqs is declaring intent during character creation... Maybe as a bonus for declaring intent you gain planetouched and alignment subtypes at creation upgrading to Outsider (Native, alignment) when you take your first level in the class... (May also need a penalty for declaring intent and not taking first level of the class by 10th lvl...)

    Also you mention Atonement several times, which seems a bit off to me... If you can do something that would require atonement, are you really an Avatar in the first place? Also, if you are the incarnation of a Deity or of an aspect of one, who would you go to to seek atonement? Might I suggest replacing this with a Ritual of Re-alignment you perform for your self that requires equivalent material, Focus, Divine Focus, and XP costs?

    EDIT: Ninja'd by OP... Reviewing changes now...
    Ha no worries about being ninja'd! Atonement is my go-to for any homebrewed class with alignment restrictions but I agree it doesn't really work in this instance... it could be refluffed as asking a favour from another god to help (re-)centre yourself (I like your ritual idea but I'm too lazy to write it up at the moment).

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Actually reading the divinity rules while typing this time.

    Why must Avatars not be neutral? What about poor old Boccob? He's not allowed to have an Avatar, or become one if someone blasted him to bits?

    Why do they not automatically count as magic for overcoming DR?

    Might I suggest that you add in the ability to cast one spell from each of your domains of each spell level equal to half your character level or less per day, and scale the number of miracle uses per day by level (possibly starting later than level 2)? As-is, 3/day spells are extremely limited, especially at higher levels. Granted, the sheer versatility does help, but I'm starting to think this might've gone too far on the nerf side... On the other hand, you don't gain salient divine abilities till divine rank 1 (albeit you do gain domain spells at will at 0), so this is already a bit beyond the normal divinity rules, albeit it does kind of make sense.

    Note that the divinity rules specify you gain Fire Resist 5 + rank, and rank 1+ gets immunity to electricity, cold, and acid, with nadda against those for rank 0. The class feature for resistance suggests all deities should have more. The DR of half class level is almost ok, except that's keyed to alignment, not magic/epic as the divinity rules granted DR is epic, suggesting that epic weapons that lack alignment will still fail to effect a rank 0 Avatar class despite being able to murderize a rank 0 ascended Wizard or whatever. So with both of those defenses, this class is rather notably going beyond the divine rank 0 rules here. Oh, and you don't get SR from the class, despite the fact that divine rank 0 gives you rank + 32?

    Adding "you can sense the presence of any holy symbols dedicated to yourself if they fall within the detection areas of these effects" to Discern would be extremely easy and extremely low-impact. I'm even tempted to suggest just making Discern just detect magic and alignment as if by those spells, instead of having all of them have to be cast separately.

    It might be worth including some sort of "imbue spell ability" or somesuch in the teens as a kind of warm-up to the granting spells at level 20.

    Aura of Glory: I'd suggest make this cause an effect that varies by the target's alignment; for example: if they're the same as you, they're charmed, if they're off by a step, they're shaken, if they're two steps away, frightened, three gets panicked, four gets dazed, all for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier.

    Apotheosis: Aside from gripes that divinity rules don't include automatically overcoming DR/epic, going up in rank once per level beyond 20 can easily break cosmologies that strictly state that there are only so many divine ranks in the world and to increase your own you must absorb from other deities as they fall, so I'd suggest changing the epic/rank progression note to specify that you should work with your DM regarding gaining additional ranks, whether that'll require gifts from other deities/ deicide, or be something that you can get by level whether it's one per level or slower (DM preference really, some cosmologies will have only very few deities with ranks higher than 5).

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avigor View Post
    Actually reading the divinity rules while typing this time.

    Why must Avatars not be neutral? What about poor old Boccob? He's not allowed to have an Avatar, or become one if someone blasted him to bits?

    Why do they not automatically count as magic for overcoming DR?

    Might I suggest that you add in the ability to cast one spell from each of your domains of each spell level equal to half your character level or less per day, and scale the number of miracle uses per day by level (possibly starting later than level 2)? As-is, 3/day spells are extremely limited, especially at higher levels. Granted, the sheer versatility does help, but I'm starting to think this might've gone too far on the nerf side... On the other hand, you don't gain salient divine abilities till divine rank 1 (albeit you do gain domain spells at will at 0), so this is already a bit beyond the normal divinity rules, albeit it does kind of make sense.

    Note that the divinity rules specify you gain Fire Resist 5 + rank, and rank 1+ gets immunity to electricity, cold, and acid, with nadda against those for rank 0. The class feature for resistance suggests all deities should have more. The DR of half class level is almost ok, except that's keyed to alignment, not magic/epic as the divinity rules granted DR is epic, suggesting that epic weapons that lack alignment will still fail to effect a rank 0 Avatar class despite being able to murderize a rank 0 ascended Wizard or whatever. So with both of those defenses, this class is rather notably going beyond the divine rank 0 rules here. Oh, and you don't get SR from the class, despite the fact that divine rank 0 gives you rank + 32?

    Adding "you can sense the presence of any holy symbols dedicated to yourself if they fall within the detection areas of these effects" to Discern would be extremely easy and extremely low-impact. I'm even tempted to suggest just making Discern just detect magic and alignment as if by those spells, instead of having all of them have to be cast separately.

    It might be worth including some sort of "imbue spell ability" or somesuch in the teens as a kind of warm-up to the granting spells at level 20.

    Aura of Glory: I'd suggest make this cause an effect that varies by the target's alignment; for example: if they're the same as you, they're charmed, if they're off by a step, they're shaken, if they're two steps away, frightened, three gets panicked, four gets dazed, all for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier.

    Apotheosis: Aside from gripes that divinity rules don't include automatically overcoming DR/epic, going up in rank once per level beyond 20 can easily break cosmologies that strictly state that there are only so many divine ranks in the world and to increase your own you must absorb from other deities as they fall, so I'd suggest changing the epic/rank progression note to specify that you should work with your DM regarding gaining additional ranks, whether that'll require gifts from other deities/ deicide, or be something that you can get by level whether it's one per level or slower (DM preference really, some cosmologies will have only very few deities with ranks higher than 5).
    1) Non-neutral on the grounds that a) I don't want to have to figure out DR etc mechanics for each neutral alignment, for my revised paladin I said a true neutral paladin was opposed to each extreme alignment (LG, CE, LE, CG) but the Avatar's DR is more complex, b) I'm growing less and less fond of neutrality as an alignment for sentient creatures, it should be reserved for truly amoral entities like animals IMHO, and c) Boccob had it coming :D Nevertheless I'll work in a true neutral option (but still no NG, NE, LN, CN)... or actually evenas I type this it occurs to me to use silver and cold iron as well.

    2) I think it's an unspoken rule that if your weapons count as a certain alignment they automatically count as magic too? See pit fiends etc. - high-power monsters but their natural weapons aren't explicitly referred to as magic, just lawful/evil/etc.

    3) Domains as SLAs is a good idea, I'll write that in.

    4) Yes I decided against perfectly converting the Divine Rank rules (in fact I feel that my broad resistances make more sense, gods should be tough and should have actual immunities based on their unique portfolio i.e. only storm gods should have electricity immunity, not forest gods). SR in particular was a headache as I'd also have to give them my homebrew feats to allow them to freely lower their SR against beneficial spells.

    5) Good idea re: Discern too, I'll add it in.

    6) I'll leave imbuing to be covered via miracle or getting your DM to let you take Leadership. I pondered a mechanic where you were more powerful with more worshippers but that was clearly going to be potentially broken/abuseable.

    7) Aura was a holdover from when this was a conversion of Daemon... on the one hand I like tailoring the effects to the subject's alignment but on the other hand I also like the idea of an Avatar of any alignment being able to persuade/seduce/trick/intimidate/corrupt/inspire any creature to its cause.

    8) Epic levels (and even level 20) pretty much work by DM fiat anyways, so the Divine Rank progression will have to be discussed explicitly if this class is allowed.

    Thank you for the detailed (and very constructive!) critique :)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    1) Non-neutral on the grounds that a) I don't want to have to figure out DR etc mechanics for each neutral alignment, for my revised paladin I said a true neutral paladin was opposed to each extreme alignment (LG, CE, LE, CG) but the Avatar's DR is more complex, b) I'm growing less and less fond of neutrality as an alignment for sentient creatures, it should be reserved for truly amoral entities like animals IMHO, and c) Boccob had it coming :D Nevertheless I'll work in a true neutral option (but still no NG, NE, LN, CN)... or actually evenas I type this it occurs to me to use silver and cold iron as well.

    2) I think it's an unspoken rule that if your weapons count as a certain alignment they automatically count as magic too? See pit fiends etc. - high-power monsters but their natural weapons aren't explicitly referred to as magic, just lawful/evil/etc.

    3) Domains as SLAs is a good idea, I'll write that in.

    4) Yes I decided against perfectly converting the Divine Rank rules (in fact I feel that my broad resistances make more sense, gods should be tough and should have actual immunities based on their unique portfolio i.e. only storm gods should have electricity immunity, not forest gods). SR in particular was a headache as I'd also have to give them my homebrew feats to allow them to freely lower their SR against beneficial spells.

    5) Good idea re: Discern too, I'll add it in.

    6) I'll leave imbuing to be covered via miracle or getting your DM to let you take Leadership. I pondered a mechanic where you were more powerful with more worshippers but that was clearly going to be potentially broken/abuseable.

    7) Aura was a holdover from when this was a conversion of Daemon... on the one hand I like tailoring the effects to the subject's alignment but on the other hand I also like the idea of an Avatar of any alignment being able to persuade/seduce/trick/intimidate/corrupt/inspire any creature to its cause.

    8) Epic levels (and even level 20) pretty much work by DM fiat anyways, so the Divine Rank progression will have to be discussed explicitly if this class is allowed.

    Thank you for the detailed (and very constructive!) critique :)
    1: I guess Heironeous and Pelor are SOL then lol... And from what I've seen, the "standard" rule for neutrals with an alignment based ability (example off the top of my head, cleric turning) is they choose whichever alignment they prefer.

    2: I'm not so sure... There are exotic materials that count as good or evil, but do not specify magic. I know back in 3.0 days the rule was that a creature with a given DR could pierce that same DR in other creatures, but from what I saw in the SRD general rules (unable to search more deeply atm) the only point where this carried over to 3.5 is that DR/Epic creatures automatically count as epic to pierce other's DR/Epic (wow missed that last time lol). Alignment subtypes do specify that they count for piercing as their alignment, but don't specify as magic... Huh I think I need to search more thoroughly soon.

    4: Just specify that it doesn't apply to harmless spells, or that it can be lowered and/or resumed as a free action. No need to add feats.

    7: Good point, maybe borrow from the divine template and let the user choose between charm and shaken effects at will as the divine aura allows?

    New DR has a "/or" that could lead to "you don't need both" confusion/ arguments.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Avatar (no not the show :D). Tier 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avigor View Post
    1: I guess Heironeous and Pelor are SOL then lol... And from what I've seen, the "standard" rule for neutrals with an alignment based ability (example off the top of my head, cleric turning) is they choose whichever alignment they prefer.

    2: I'm not so sure... There are exotic materials that count as good or evil, but do not specify magic. I know back in 3.0 days the rule was that a creature with a given DR could pierce that same DR in other creatures, but from what I saw in the SRD general rules (unable to search more deeply atm) the only point where this carried over to 3.5 is that DR/Epic creatures automatically count as epic to pierce other's DR/Epic (wow missed that last time lol). Alignment subtypes do specify that they count for piercing as their alignment, but don't specify as magic... Huh I think I need to search more thoroughly soon.

    4: Just specify that it doesn't apply to harmless spells, or that it can be lowered and/or resumed as a free action. No need to add feats.

    7: Good point, maybe borrow from the divine template and let the user choose between charm and shaken effects at will as the divine aura allows?

    New DR has a "/or" that could lead to "you don't need both" confusion/ arguments.
    1. Ha I added options in for all alignmnts anyways, Pelor the Burning Hate can rest easy. I strongly dislike the "neutrals get to choose between good or evil powers" thing -another example of how "neutral" is just a placeholder alignment IMHO so I avoided it.

    2. You're correct, I checked the DR entry and by RAW it doesn't count, so a sword can apparently be infused with supernatural evil and still not count as "magical", bah humbug. In any event the Avatar should follow the example set by outsiders so they don't get magical attacks either, until the Divine Ranks kick in at least.

    4. I stuffed in my homebrew feats anyways, never miss a chance for self-promotion haha!

    7. I've taken a 3rd route and made Aura of Glory into a skill bonus; you have to work your flock to convert them now.

    Edited the and/or clause too.

    Thanks again!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •