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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Not to be a distraction, I will be fine with my roll being resolved after the current combat ends, along with any other rolls I make between now and then.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Oh wow, I did not expect the kiai to go through. So, let me see if I'm tracking this right...

    Tuoni has a minor positive tie of admiration to Ivory Knife, and spent a WP to resist the Shriek. Per retry rules, I believe this means she can't shriek him again unless she can make it exploit a major or greater intimacy somehow.

    And, with another initiative swap, we move to round 3 and Ivory Knife acts first?
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Okay, if I'm reading everything correctly, here's what's happened...

    pfm1995, you decided to resist the Withering Kiai with just a stunt. It was a really nice stunt, and I'm willing to upgrade it to two-point (granting Tuoni another WP), but that's not enough to block Ivory Knife's attack (though it does reduce its threshold successes to 2).

    Post-soak damage ends up being 10 dice, with only three successes. Tuoni loses three Initiative, Ivory Knife gains four.

    That does put Ivory Knife ahead of Tuoni now; she at 7 Initiative, he at 4.

    For the Terrifying Battle Shriek, the rerolls got IK to 10 successes, and Tuoni's Resolve... 4 -1 (Wound) -1 (Fear from Kiai) +2 (Admiration for Ivory Knife), +3 (Integrity Excellency) +1 (Stunt) = 8, so he does fail. I take it from the mention of his children that you're citing his Intimacy toward his Family in the resulting Decision Point, as a justification for spending WP? That works.

    For Ivory Knife, retrying Terrifying Battle Shriek is possible with a stunt to escalate the level of the threat.

    The round ends, you each regain 5m, and the new round starts with Ivory Knife acting on Initiative 7. You are still at Close range. If Ivory Knife attacks Tuoni again, he'll take a -1 Onslaught penalty to his Defense since it will be the second time he's been attacked since his last turn.

    (Incidentally, to drive home how easy it is to make mistakes in this system, my initial draft of this post had incorrect numbers for the kiai attack's threshold successes and damage dealt because I'd forgotten to apply Tuoni's wound penalty to his Defense.)

    Also...
    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    Can I voluntarily fail a resistance roll? Because if I can I'll fail the one to establish a positive tie. Speaking of, should I fail the positive tie established would be Admiration, and I'll be using it to resist the fear effect.]
    Yes, you can choose to accept social influence without trying to resist it. You might do the same with Wic's cheerleading, to accept the emotion of Hope (although the Wound Penalty to Resolve means that it'll go through regardless unless you make an effort to fight it).
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-10 at 02:08 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    All that looks right to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Oh wow, I did not expect the kiai to go through.
    You rolled nine successes on eleven dice; I wasn't expecting it either. Really wasn't expecting you to have five Dex on top of that.

    Also, Black Claw Form? Didn't see that coming, but I think I see why.
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-10 at 05:31 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    So, here's something I just found out that might be of interest to you, since it came up earlier in the thread.

    The Indomitable Southpaw Empress one-turn-kill of Ahlat with average dice rolls actually doesn't work as plotted out by its creator. Its viability depended in part on the ability to create more attacks with an upgraded Hammer-on-Iron Technique than the Empress had Initiative, relying on damage bonuses inherent in the Charm to raise the "0 Initiative" Decisive attacks created in that process up to the point where they could actually inflict damage. Only...

    You can't make a Decisive attack with 0 Initiative invested into it, meaning that Hammer-on-Iron Technique is effectively capped at (Initiative) attacks.

    I also stated earlier that small Hardness values aren't very useful in this edition, but they actually are useful against low-Initiative Decisive flurries, since breaking an attack up into multiple attacks with smaller damage pools makes it harder for any of those attacks to overcome Hardness.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    I also stated earlier that small Hardness values aren't very useful in this edition, but they actually are useful against low-Initiative Decisive flurries, since breaking an attack up into multiple attacks with smaller damage pools makes it harder for any of those attacks to overcome Hardness.
    I feel like that's only true if they're adding automatic successes somehow (assuming automatic successes don't bypass Hardness) because any dice pool that low has a minuscule chance of getting through your defenses anyway - well, unless you're playing a character with neither physical stats nor dodge charms to speak of.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    I feel like that's only true if they're adding automatic successes somehow (assuming automatic successes don't bypass Hardness) because any dice pool that low has a minuscule chance of getting through your defenses anyway - well, unless you're playing a character with neither physical stats nor dodge charms to speak of.
    The damage pool for Decisive Attacks, without specific Charm enhancement, is always just (Initiative), so a low Decisive damage pool doesn't necessarily mean a low attack pool.

    Consider someone making a Decisive Attack at Initiative 5 vs a character with Hardness 4 from Light Artifact Armor.

    If they make a single Decisive attack with no Charms modifying Decisive damage pool or Hardness, it will be able to deal damage if it hits, since Initiative 5 gives them a larger Decisive damage pool than the opponent's Hardness 4.

    If they use Hammer-on-Iron Technique enhanced by Fivefold Fury Onslaught to make a flurry of 5 Decisive Attacks, the damage pool for the first (modified by the Charms) is 2, the second 3, the third 4, and it isn't until the fourth attack in the flurry that the Decisive damage pool reaches 5 and pierces Hardness 4.

    The flurry in that case would still do more damage than the single unaugmented hit if every attack in the sequence connects, since the fourth and fifth attacks can do 5 and 6+ damage, respectively, but having Hardness 4 negates at least 9 dice of damage compared to a full five-hit sequence at that Initiative vs. Hardness 0.

    You can call that a niche use, but it's a niche use that blunts the impact of one of the most powerful tactics in the game, so I think it's fair to say that low Hardness is more valuable than I previously thought.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    All that looks right to me.

    You rolled nine successes on eleven dice; I wasn't expecting it either. Really wasn't expecting you to have five Dex on top of that.

    Also, Black Claw Form? Didn't see that coming, but I think I see why.
    Time to seduce an arena full of people at once, you mean?

    And yeah, that was an absurdly good roll. Clearly I should be appeasing the random number gods by rolling smaller dice pools, they seem to work much better than the 16-die social pools.
    Avatar by araveugnitsuga.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Responding to Ivory Knife's Manipulation Roll

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    (6d10)[3][8][5][8][4][3](31)


    (Edit:) Also, if I'm counting things right, both of ya'll should be in Bonfire Anima by this point, so a description might be nice.
    Last edited by Sticks; 2017-12-10 at 09:28 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    The swan-feathers are Tuoni's; I wanted something that I could use to stunt with.

    Edit: Quick Question: Is Resolve lowered along with the rest of Tuoni's defenses? Let me re-phrase. If something says it lowers my defenses, does that include Resolve?
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-10 at 09:34 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Responding to Ivory Knife's Manipulation Roll

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    [roll0]


    (Edit:) Also, if I'm counting things right, both of ya'll should be in Bonfire Anima by this point, so a description might be nice.
    Agh, shoot. I totally forgot. I'll edit that in.
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    I'm spending a point of willpower to avert that initiative damage. Going through it a little quickly now.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Alright, there you go. Soybeans. Best anima banner.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Alright, there you go. Soybeans. Best anima banner.
    I think it's your move, or are you waiting on the success/fail of the other players and NPCs?
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-10 at 10:08 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    I think it's your move, or are you waiting on the success/fail of the other players and NPCs?
    Yes. That is totally it. I didn't lose track of the turn order, not me.

    ...I'll just put up that post now, then.
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Hey, if you want to delay then by all means...

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Now that you mention it, that sounds like a pretty fun thing to try.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Responding to Ivory Knife's Manipulation Roll
    Responding with what, pray tell? This is an Influence roll, so it targets Resolve, which is a static value. You can Stunt it up, cite Intimacies that would help you resist this influence, and/or use Integrity Charms if you want to raise Resolve, and you can spend 1 WP to refuse to gain the Intimacy if it succeeds regardless, but you don't roll an active defense against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    The swan-feathers are Tuoni's; I wanted something that I could use to stunt with.

    Edit: Quick Question: Is Resolve lowered along with the rest of Tuoni's defenses? Let me re-phrase. If something says it lowers my defenses, does that include Resolve?
    If something lowers Defense (i.e. Black Claw Form, Onslaught Penalties, Flurrying), it does not lower your Resolve.

    If something penalizes all static values (i.e. Wound Penalties), it does lower your Resolve.

    The condition that leads to Black Claw Form penalizing Defense (having a positive Intimacy toward the Black Claw martial artist), however, already penalizes your Resolve against social influence that resonates with that Intimacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    If Ivory Knife successfully defends, she gains two initiative from Doe Eyes Defense and makes a social attack against Tuoni and all bystanders simultaneously (ignoring the normal group penalty) from Torn Lotus Defense. If the social roll hits Tuoni, it deals 5 unsoakable initiative damage to him. She will spend one WP to add a success to that social roll.
    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    I'm spending a point of willpower to avert that initiative damage. Going through it a little quickly now.
    Okay, I did some research, and... this gets complicated in one of two ways, depending on how you interpret the Charm...

    1.) The Instill reading.

    This reading hinges on the fact that Torn Lotus Defense's counterattack is described as an Instill roll. This can be taken to mean that it follows all the normal rules for Instill actions (except for the Withering damage part which is unique to this Charm).

    AFAICT, given the Instill rules, since you're targeting the Minor Intimacy of Admiration Tuoni holds for Ivory Knife from the last Torn Lotus Defense, if you want to use an Instill to strengthen it to Major (and thus gain the Withering damage), you have to be able to support it with a different Minor+ Intimacy that Tuoni holds. I don't think you can right now, so the Instill here wouldn't hit Tuoni (though it does hit the crowd).

    (If you fulfilled that condition, however, he would not be able to spend WP against it, because you can't spend WP to prevent a Minor Intimacy from being raised to Major.)

    2.) The Counterattack reading.

    This reading hinges on the Charm saying that "this influence roll is also treated as a special withering counterattack." (Italics mine.) This reading interprets the Torn Lotus Defense Influence roll to apply once as social influence and once as a Withering counterattack. The Withering counterattack element of it would thus separately compare the social influence to Resolve to see if the social influence goes through, and then compare the Influence roll to physical Defense (not Resolve) to determine whether the Withering damage goes through.

    In this case, the Withering attack would go through unless Tuoni boosted his Defense against it, and WP couldn't be spent against that effect because that element is an attack, not social influence.

    I lean toward the Instill reading, because it makes the Charm a little less simple than "5 free Initiative damage when I successfully defend," requiring more work from the Black Claw to build up the necessary intimacies through non-Torn-Lotus social influence.

    One common thread in both the readings I laid out above is the inability to spend WP against the withering attack element of the Charm, if that element succeeds. I think that much is a correct reading, since resisting that damage doesn't fall under the normal rules for spending WP to resist social influence, nor does the Charm itself call out WP as a resistance mechanism like, for instance, Righteous Devil Form does, or Outrage-Kindling Cry elsewhere in Black Claw, or Seven-Storms Escape Prana in Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, etcetera.

    Torn Lotus Defense is a confusingly written Charm, though, and I welcome your feedback. As long as there's a consensus, I'm willing to implement it in whatever way seems fair to the group.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    I'm fine either way - I expected to not be able to strengthen Tuoni's intimacy right now, I should have specified - although I also want to ask, as pointed out by the thread: does the "five unsoakable withering damage" mean five dice of damage?
    Last edited by Eurus; 2017-12-10 at 10:49 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    I'm fine either way - I expected to not be able to strengthen Tuoni's intimacy right now, I should have specified - although I also want to ask, as pointed out by the thread: does the "five unsoakable withering damage" mean five dice of damage?
    "Initiative points" or "points of initiative" is the technical name for individual units of Initiative, so I believe "(Manipulation) points of unsoakable Initiative damage" means unrolled damage ([Manipulation] points of initiative), not rolled dice of damage, analogous to Charms that do health levels of damage rather than rolled Decisive damage (like the "choose to burn" effect of Righteous Devil's Caress of 1,000 Hells).
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Good to know!

    Heading to work for the night, anyway. I'll see you all and post again at some point tomorrow afternoon, if I don't pass out first.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    The instill reading is how I'd interpret it (though I'd forgotten that she needed to play off another intimacy). Saves me a point of Willpower, so that's nice.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Since we're in a new round (Tuoni's attack ended the last, Ivory Knife's delaying started the current round), don't forget to both recover 5m.

    I'll give a quick peanut gallery update with reactions to Ivory Knife's attempt to enchant the entire audience.
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  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Okay, you guys can delay to the end of the round trying to wait each other out, but you can't just skip acting and jump to next round. You've got to do something at some point.

    The way I want to resolve this is to have Eurus declare Ivory Knife's action first, since she was supposed to go first initially, before all the delaying. pfm1995 can then declare Tuoni's action, which may occur simultaneously with Ivory Knife's.

    If both actions are attacks, we'll follow Clash rules for resolving them.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    Okay, you guys can delay to the end of the round trying to wait each other out, but you can't just skip acting and jump to next round. You've got to do something at some point.

    The way I want to resolve this is to have Eurus declare Ivory Knife's action first, since she was supposed to go first initially, before all the delaying. pfm1995 can then declare Tuoni's action, which may occur simultaneously with Ivory Knife's.

    If both actions are attacks, we'll follow Clash rules for resolving them.
    Hmm. I feel like the "both people skip acting" issue would self-resolve eventually since someone would crash themselves (you sacrifice 2i for delaying), but fair enough. Ivory Knife will be making an unarmed withering attack.
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  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    My larger concern was us 'falling off the end of the initiative order' and both of us regaining another round of motes - something I really don't want. Thanks for reminding me about the initiative cost of delaying, though, I had completely forgotten about it. I've edited an initiative count into my last post.

    Tuoni will be using Full Defense (which costs him no initiative per Crane Form), then counterattacking per Crane Form. I was so, so close to trying to clash until I re-read Doe Eyes Defense and realized I was being very dumb.

    @Eurus - if you'd like to nest spoilers to hide your defensive charms just mark them clearly and I won't look; if you'd like to see what charms I'm using before you defend then we'll just resolve this as two attack/defenses as normal.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    My larger concern was us 'falling off the end of the initiative order' and both of us regaining another round of motes - something I really don't want. Thanks for reminding me about the initiative cost of delaying, though, I had completely forgotten about it. I've edited an initiative count into my last post.

    Tuoni will be using Full Defense (which costs him no initiative per Crane Form), then counterattacking per Crane Form. I was so, so close to trying to clash until I re-read Doe Eyes Defense and realized I was being very dumb.

    @Eurus - if you'd like to nest spoilers to hide your defensive charms just mark them clearly and I won't look; if you'd like to see what charms I'm using before you defend then we'll just resolve this as two attack/defenses as normal.
    Yeah, I didn't realize until just this round that clashing works great for Black Claw.

    Do we resolve the attack first, or the counterattack first?
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Do we resolve the attack first, or the counterattack first?
    My attack resolves after you roll your attack, but before you roll damage. My attack roll also can't affect your damage roll in any way.

    (More specifically, it resolves in the same way Solar Counterattack does)
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-11 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Yeah, I didn't realize until just this round that clashing works great for Black Claw.

    Do we resolve the attack first, or the counterattack first?
    If I remember right, I think attacks and counter-attacks are resolved simultaneously.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    If I remember right, I think attacks and counter-attacks are resolved simultaneously.
    Each counterattack charm works in its own way; Crane Form doesn't specify (multiple-authors syndrome) but a dev clarified it here.
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-11 at 11:43 AM.

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