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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    As pfm says, technically the counterattack resolves per Solar Counterattack timing, placing it between the attack roll and damage roll of the provoking attack, but in practice that just means that both attacks are guaranteed to go off uninterrupted. Even if the attacker is using a Decisive attack and the counterattack is Withering, it wouldn't reduce the Initiative pool rolled for damage despite being resolved before that damage roll, unless the counterattack Charm used specifically states otherwise (as one in Melee does).

    You can still declare defenses against a counterattack as normal, despite it coming in the middle of your own attack.

    Hmm... this could potentially end in each of you Crashing the other, which would be... interesting. I'll need to check into how that would resolve.
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-11 at 11:47 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    If I remember right, I think attacks and counter-attacks are resolved simultaneously.
    This is usually essentially the case, but there's a few counterattacks that are exceptions, like Solar Cross-Counter in Brawl (which requires that you be hit first), or Crossed-Wings Denial elsewhere in Crane (which requires that you successfully parry first).
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Actually, come to think of it, Solar Counterattack timing means that both of you ending up crashed shouldn't be possible.

    If Ivory Knife is crashed by the counterattack, but rolls well enough on damage to crash Tuoni in return, she'd gain an Initiative Shift from crashing the person who crashed her, guaranteeing that she'd end up ahead.

    Of course, those are two big "Ifs"... we shall see once everyone declares their defenses.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Defensive charms specified in IC.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Well, we both hit. Not sure what your soak is, so I can't calculate the initiative change.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Her soak is a whopping two.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Okay, order of resolution...

    Ivory Knife's attack roll: 11 successes.

    Tuoni's Defense: 10

    Tuoni's attack: 10 successes (after the Doe Eyes penalty).

    Ivory Knife's Defense: 8 (including presumed 1-point stunt, 7 before stunt)

    Tuoni's post-soak damage (with assumed 1-point defensive stunt on IK's part): 8, taking Ivory Knife to -4 Initiative (since the cost of Doe Eyes Defense took her down to 4 at the time the attack hits) and Crashing her. Tuoni gets the Initiative Break bonus in addition to the Initiative he gains from the Withering attack, briefly taking him to Initiative 16 (2 starting + 1 for hitting with a Withering attack + 8 from Withering damage dealt + 5 for Initiative Break).

    Ivory Knife's post-soak damage: 3, taking Tuoni down to 13 and herself up to 0 (-4 + 1 for hitting with a Withering attack +3 damage), meaning she is still Crashed.
    End of round, you each regain 5 motes.

    Next round starts with Tuoni at 13 Initiative. Ivory Knife is at 0.
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-11 at 03:04 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    WAIT, I misremembered Bleeding Crescent Strike and was thinking that it doubled 9s on damage. Since it doubles 9s on attack my numbers are wrong.

    Give me a second to recalculate.

    EDIT: Everything should now be correct. Due to one 9 being doubled and the increased threshold successes adding one more success on damage, Tuoni is now at 13 and Ivory Knife is now at 0 (and thus still Crashed).
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-11 at 03:05 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    I am starting to suspect that I should have invested some resources in actually being able to deal more than scratch damage when I hit. .
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    I am starting to suspect that I should have invested some resources in actually being able to deal more than scratch damage when I hit. .
    That's what Heart-Ripping Claw is for

    There's also the "poison with Flexing the Emerald Claw, then grapple with Storm-Calming Embrace, Restrain, and hug them to death" option.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    I am starting to suspect that I should have invested some resources in actually being able to deal more than scratch damage when I hit. .
    To be fair, you've managed to dazzle both Brown Leaf and me!

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    That's what Heart-Ripping Claw is for

    There's also the "poison with Flexing the Emerald Claw, then grapple with Storm-Calming Embrace, Restrain, and hug them to death" option.
    Indeed. My issue, I think, was that Black Claw's offensive options are... a little divorced from their defensive ones? It seems like it's kinda going for two totally different concepts, if that makes any sense.

    Really, I should've probably invested more heavily in Nightingale style instead of having ten mostly redundant socialize charms, heh. But then, that was the concept.
    Last edited by Eurus; 2017-12-11 at 03:40 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Indeed. My issue, I think, was that Black Claw's offensive options are... a little divorced from their defensive ones? It seems like it's kinda going for two totally different concepts, if that makes any sense.

    Really, I should've probably invested more heavily in Nightingale style instead of having ten mostly redundant socialize charms, heh. But then, that was the concept.
    I will admit, I was wondering if you had taken Heart-Ripping Claw, and if so how on earth that would work in a non-lethal tournament.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    I will admit, I was wondering if you had taken Heart-Ripping Claw, and if so how on earth that would work in a non-lethal tournament.
    Heheh. I chose not to, because... yeah.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Heheh. I chose not to, because... yeah.
    I mean, you're fighting the guy that has the entirety of White Reaper. Most of which is of... debatable usefulness in a tournament.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    I mean, you're fighting the guy that has the entirety of White Reaper. Most of which is of... debatable usefulness in a tournament.
    Valid point! Fun fight, though.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Indeed. My issue, I think, was that Black Claw's offensive options are... a little divorced from their defensive ones? It seems like it's kinda going for two totally different concepts, if that makes any sense.
    I'm not sure if this makes any more sense, but I... think that's kind of the point? The defense is the soft, vulnerable facade that Black Claw puts up, and then the offense (at least Heart-Rending Claw) is the sudden startling revelation of the demonic malice lurking beneath that facade.

    For its part, Flexing the Emerald Claw is subtler, at least, and Storm-Calming Embrace entirely retains the illusion of softness by prohibiting you from savaging or throwing.

    I can see why you'd be underwhelmed by Black Claw's offense, however. It's not the only style that suffers from that. I've been similarly disappointed by Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, which also has only three physical attack Charms. (DPC's offensive options are a little more freely usable, Vindictive Concubine's Pillow Book excepted, but DPC also doesn't have Black Claw's counterattacks, so I think it comes out vaguely even.)
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    I'm not sure if this makes any more sense, but I... think that's kind of the point? The defense is the soft, vulnerable facade that Black Claw puts up, and then the offense (at least Heart-Rending Claw) is the sudden startling revelation of the demonic malice lurking beneath that facade.

    For its part, Flexing the Emerald Claw is subtler, at least, and Storm-Calming Embrace entirely retains the illusion of softness by prohibiting you from savaging or throwing.

    I can see why you'd be underwhelmed by Black Claw's offense, however. It's not the only style that suffers from that. I've been similarly disappointed by Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, which also has only three physical attack Charms. (DPC's offensive options are a little more freely usable, Vindictive Concubine's Pillow Book excepted, but DPC also doesn't have Black Claw's counterattacks, so I think it comes out vaguely even.)
    Yeah, and I mean, martial arts tend to combine for the most part, so it's more forgivable. It's just tricky to put together a good build from all the different potential options in a game that relies so heavily on synergies. Gets easier with practice, I'm sure.
    Last edited by Eurus; 2017-12-11 at 03:55 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Yeah, and I mean, martial arts tend to combine for the most part, so it's more forgivable. It's just tricky to put together a good build from all the different potential options in a game that relies so heavily on synergies. Gets easier with practice, I'm sure.
    The combos are great if you houserule, like I usually do, but they're not so great when you consider that by the rules as written, every one of these styles is a separate Ability. Form Weapon limitations can also be a bit of a hassle sometimes.

    Incidentally, I think the DPC + Nightingale possibilities are somewhat exciting, since DPC itself is built to try to fight at Short range, even giving you options to boost Disengage to keep you there.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    The combos are great if you houserule, like I usually do, but they're not so great when you consider that by the rules as written, every one of these styles is a separate Ability. Form Weapon limitations can also be a bit of a hassle sometimes.

    Incidentally, I think the DPC + Nightingale possibilities are somewhat exciting, since DPC itself is built to try to fight at Short range, even giving you options to boost Disengage to keep you there.
    Oh yeah? That's kinda neat, I figured trying to stay at Short was a losing battle with how effective Rush can be.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Oh yeah? That's kinda neat, I figured trying to stay at Short was a losing battle with how effective Rush can be.
    Rush and Disengage do kind of negate each other. I think the best single Disengage Charm is actually Fleet Dreaming Image in Dodge, which lets you Disengage from Short range, meaning that Rush can't catch you without itself being Charm-augmented.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    Rush and Disengage do kind of negate each other. I think the best single Disengage Charm is actually Fleet Dreaming Image in Dodge, which lets you Disengage from Short range, meaning that Rush can't catch you without itself being Charm-augmented.
    One of my big worries early on was that Ivory Knife would dance around at short-medium range, using Terrifying Shriek when I did manage to close.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    One of my big worries early on was that Ivory Knife would dance around at short-medium range, using Terrifying Shriek when I did manage to close.
    Yeah, that would have been a good idea, could have got me at least one extra turn of being able to attack without getting attacked in return. But the initiative swap from that decisive attack let Tuoni close.
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  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    You did dodge it; I rolled horribly on the attack roll.

  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Wow, looking at it, that was indeed horrible. My sympathies.
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  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    Apparently the dice roller wants to stretch this match out a little bit.
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-11 at 09:46 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    And here I was figuring it would wrap up quickly.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    That's the end of the round so five motes for the both of us; I'll be using Full Defense this round so feel free to declare your next action.

    Edit: I mean, you could just let me grapple you?

    Also, two more rounds until you're uncrashed. Ascension, I assume she's uncrashed when she comes up in the initiative order, should we reach that point?
    Last edited by pfm1995; 2017-12-11 at 09:49 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    After both of you missing, you do indeed both regain 5m, and we go to the top of the next round, with Tuoni at 10 Initiative and Ivory Knife still at 0. EDIT: And with pfm already having declared a Full Defense, that does mean we can go ahead to Ivory Knife's next action.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm1995 View Post
    Also, two more rounds until you're uncrashed. Ascension, I assume she's uncrashed when she comes up in the initiative order, should we reach that point?
    It says "beginning of [her] next turn" after surviving three turns Crashed, so this would be the first of those turns survived... assuming she doesn't gain back over 0 Initiative before then through other means, she'll reset at the beginning of the action after the action after her next action.
    Last edited by Ascension; 2017-12-11 at 11:25 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: The Lotus Blossoms! [OOC]

    On the one hand, attacking into the Crane counterattack is probably an objectively bad idea, and I could just take my own total defense or something. On the other hand, I don't really want to drag this out forever, so let's go for it.
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