We're all jumping the 4e gun...

[ArmorArmadillo]

4e isn't coming out for about a year; and we have no actual facts about it...
No rules, no excerpts, only position statements like "make races scale" and "make each level important".

So, in our rush to have wishlists and predictions of how it's going to change 3.x, aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?

We don't know the rules, and it's safe to assume it's significantly different from 3.5, so we can't assume that rules changes are going to be matters of tweaking mage spellcasting, or slightly reformatting the monk class; heck, we don't even know if there'll be a monk, or anything else until we see it in excerpt.


It's only natural to be excited, and to predict, but I think we should take a step back and realize we can't really predict the changes and rules until we have a basic framework of what 4e is going to be.

[Indon]

I think this would be the best time to compile wish lists; before the details of the game's systems are solidified yet.

[psychoticbarber]

I think you're exactly right. I would put myself in the "hopeful and intrigued" column, but I'm not expecting anything out of 4th Ed yet.

[DraPrime]

You do make some good points. I'd like to also use this post to those who say that 4e is gonna suck.

We know almost nothing about it. Hold back your judgment for now.

The same thing goes for the people who think 4e is going to be the best gaming system in the universe.

[Zeful]

The designers have released three excerpts they are vauge and at the wizards 4e forum the admins and designers are answering questions. Granted it's way to early to be concerned with it. But people are anxious.

[horseboy]

I think this would be the best time to compile wish lists; before the details of the game's systems are solidified yet.

If they're going to be out in spring, then it's already too late. They should be being printed from now until January, then being staged and transported until March-Aprilish, for world wide, multi lingual, simultaneous launch.

[Indon]

If they're going to be out in spring, then it's already too late. They should be being printed from now until January, then being staged and transported until March-Aprilish, for world wide, multi lingual, simultaneous launch.

Man, and here I figured they'd made the announcement _before_ they finished it up... curses!

I guess they're 5'th edition wish lists, then?

[Dausuul]

What, you want us to discuss this calmly and rationally?

This is the Internet, dude.

[Rasumichin]

If they're going to be out in spring, then it's already too late. They should be being printed from now until January, then being staged and transported until March-Aprilish, for world wide, multi lingual, simultaneous launch.

Multi-lingual?

The German translation has been officially anounced for fall 2008.
Are there any translations that will come out at the same time as the original version?
Not that it matters to me, since i'm going to stick with the English edition anyway.

[BCOVertigo]

It's only natural to be excited, and to predict, but I think we should take a step back and realize we can't really predict the changes and rules until we have a basic framework of what 4e is going to be.

I don't think anyone expects their predictions or guesswork to have any real outcome, truthful or otherwise. It's just something to talk about in a place meant for talking.

Besides what's so wrong with hoping the next edition will be perfect? Saying we shouldn't 'get ahead of ourselves' is like telling an 8 year old not to get excited about what he might get for Christmas.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I don't think anyone expects their predictions or guesswork to have any real outcome, truthful or otherwise. It's just something to talk about in a place meant for talking.

Besides what's so wrong with hoping the next edition will be perfect? Saying we shouldn't 'get ahead of ourselves' is like telling an 8 year old not to get excited about what he might get for Christmas.

I'm not saying don't be excited, but people are already starting to break it down into "vancian magic" "30 levels" "racial progression" as though we have some substantive idea of what's in 4e when we're really just building something up we don't know.

[de-trick]

I for one am not happy for 4.0, all it is to make more money because they were trying to milk every thing they could in 3.5, psychic, tome of battle, races, all the setting books, know that they have no more Idea's left there changing the rules to put the same things with the new rules

[Krellen]

Wow. I just watched the presentation Wizards made at GenCon - and I was as overwhelmingly unimpressed with it as the crowd was.

But then, everyone's entitled to a Jaws 4.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I for one am not happy for 4.0, all it is to make more money because they were trying to milk every thing they could in 3.5, psychic, tome of battle, races, all the setting books, know that they have no more Idea's left there changing the rules to put the same things with the new rules

Then don't buy it. Sorry, but you don't know any of this; you don't know what's in 4e, you don't know they're out of ideas...wait and see, then complain.


As for GenCon audiences, they're all sound and fury signifying nothing...fanboys have all sorts of random expectations and gear up to hate things as soon as they hear about them.

And opening presentations don't really tell you much, it's all "we're going to improve this" and "we're going to try and make this better" without any real substance. It's just a litmus test of how much people want something, and a D&D audience doesn't want anything...until they get it.

[horseboy]

Multi-lingual?

The German translation has been officially anounced for fall 2008.
Are there any translations that will come out at the same time as the original version?
Not that it matters to me, since i'm going to stick with the English edition anyway.

Sorry, was using the Games Workshop model where they simo-release their stuff in 7 languages. Forgot this was WotC.

[Wraithy]

I prefer jumping the 4e shark. bring on the tank and my bike, eey!

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think you've forgotten a fundamental principle of human psychology, Armadillo:

Change means Fear. We see something new and different, we panic. Fact of history.

[Pokemaster]

This is something that I've seen with gaming company a few times, actually. The producers announce some sort of change or development, but doesn't present of the details or simply fails to show how cool they are. The players then assume that the change will suck because new systems tend to have some pretty massive flaws in them. Once the details come out, people realize all the cool stuff they'll be able to do with the system and become generally happy with it.

If Wizard had been smart, they would've put the first five levels of one of the base classes on the website instead of making that stupid video.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I think you've forgotten a fundamental principle of human psychology, Armadillo:

Change means Fear. We see something new and different, we panic. Fact of history.

Well, frankly this isn't change, just new options. It's a new system, but there's nothing saying you can't use 3.5, or even 1e until the end of time.

This would be like freaking out because White Wolf is publishing a new alternative to DnD.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, frankly this isn't change, just new options. It's a new system, but there's nothing saying you can't use 3.5, or even 1e until the end of time.

This would be like freaking out because White Wolf is publishing a new alternative to DnD.

I know that, you know that. But the whole idea of "Panic" sort of precludes rational thought and seeing obvious facts like that, doesn't it?

And as far as your new WW game example...the community of D&D players can ignore that because it's outside their sphere of attention. If it is, specifically, a new World of Darkness game, I guarantee current WoD players will hate and fear it, because it's within their sphere of attention. Similarly, D&D 4e has been thrust in the face of the D&D player community, where we cannot ignore it. Therefore, we act as any group of humans does to a change in the status quo that they cannot ignore: Fear, Anger, and Revulsion.

[psychoticbarber]

Therefore, we act as any group of humans does to a change in the status quo that they cannot ignore: Fear, Anger, and Revulsion.

Damned humans. I'm so glad I'm a martian in disguise .

[Stormcrow]

I'd like to place myself firmly in the can 4E threads have their own sub forum so that I don't have to scroll past them to read the stuff thats relevant in the _now_ camp.

If there isn't a camp I just started it. Anyone is welcome.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I know that, you know that. But the whole idea of "Panic" sort of precludes rational thought and seeing obvious facts like that, doesn't it?

And as far as your new WW game example...the community of D&D players can ignore that because it's outside their sphere of attention. If it is, specifically, a new World of Darkness game, I guarantee current WoD players will hate and fear it, because it's within their sphere of attention. Similarly, D&D 4e has been thrust in the face of the D&D player community, where we cannot ignore it. Therefore, we act as any group of humans does to a change in the status quo that they cannot ignore: Fear, Anger, and Revulsion.

I'm not arguing it with the inevitability, only the rationale.

There are scarier things than 4e (Bears, for example), we should be able to get over our fears.

[CaptN]

AHHHH FRAK! BEARS! RUN! RUN!

I, for one, can't wait too see what 4th ed is going to be like. I have hopes and dreams, fears and nightmares. I've got "whole new world" from Aladdin so stuck in my head that I'm afraid that only knives can get it out, but then I wouldn't be able to see what 4th ed is like!

[Arlanthe]

Scalable races make no sense.

So does an elf start with low light vision, and get a free weapon proficiency with sword at level three? What if the elf is raised among humans?

That's silly.

[CaptN]

Scalable races make no sense.

So does an elf start with low light vision, and get a free weapon proficiency with sword at level three? What if the elf is raised among humans?

That's silly.

It is quite silly, and I'm pretty sure thats not how it's gonna work. From the sounds of it (all of it subject to change, of course), you're gonna get your standard stuff right off the get go, and have a set of feats/abilities you can OPTIONALLY take if you're that race...kinda like Replacement levels, but more standardized

[Dr. Weasel]

I think that was sarcasm. Y'know... to reinforce the OP's statements.

[CaptN]

Errr... Huh? I was just addressing what i thought was an opinion... I don't see how sarcasm came into it... Of course, English isn't my first language (Gibberish is) so I might be missing something.

[Dr. Weasel]

Eh. It might not have been sarcasm.
I don't know, either way it backs up Armadillo's point.

[Nerd-o-rama]

CaptN: Arlanthe's main point of "silliness" is something that already makes no sense with current 3rd Edition races (racial abilities being the same despite the culture the character was raised in.) So, it's easy to assume he was kidding.

Arlanthe: Your main point of "silliness" is something that already makes no sense with current 3rd Edition races (racial abilities being the same despite the culture the character was raised in.) So, we're going to assume you were kidding.