4th Ed. Change of Theme and Genre

[DreadSpoon]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...54&postcount=6

But my 4E rogue does all that, then leaps over the heads of a line of enemies, waits for an opening when an opponent attacks him and then counterattacks immediately, and twists the knife to create a huge gash in the enemy.

While the other players whittled the enemies down, I was leading them around in a chase across the battlefield, running up walls and flipping over bad guys to keep them from laying down the inevitable smack.

I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

[tainsouvra]

Wait, so if one of the greatest warriors alive pulls of a fancy sword move that can't be replicated by a random SCA guy, that means the ninja are taking over D&D?

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Um, D&D was already heavily influenced by pulp fantasy- Notably Robert E. Howard and Franz Leiber, so I don't see a problem with that.

Nothing wrong with rogues being able to jump around like crazy either...

[RS14]

Nothing wrong with rogues being able to jump around like crazy either...

I think part of the problem here is that rogues weren't the sort to jump around. That's what Monks and Ninjas do. Jumping over somebody's head isn't exactly stealthy, which is the general rogue archetype. Of course the rogue is flexible enough that you could have a jumping rogue in 3.5; you'd just have a different concept.

[Crow]

Haha! This is great! I'm seeing everything that happened to Shadowrun (when Fanpro released that game's 4th edition) happen to D&D! The genre changed too much in Shadowrun. It just didn't feel like the same game at all.

That's why I didn't spend a dime on 4th edition. Hopefully wizards does well with DD4. It's too late for me to make a choice on it yet.

Aside, they do seem to be in love with Eberron don't they? I never liked the flavor myself.

[Fax Celestis]

Fundamental Rule of D&D: If You Don't Like It, Change It.

Honestly.

[karmuno]

I'm not too worried about this. For one thing, you can already do a lot of this in 3.x, but it's handled a lot differently. There's nothing in the current rules stopping a rogue from jumping over the heads of enemies and running up walls. It's not promoted either, but I don't suspect it will be in 4E, either. He was only giving examples from his game, and they probably aren't all that common (or if they are, it's because they're experimenting with the new rules, and they want to see just what they can do). Also, simply because this is the flavor of this game doesn't mean it has to be the flavor of <i>your</i> game. It's really just more options it seems to me.

On another note, I like the change in magic items. The current system seems too MMORPGesque IMO.

[Tobrian]

I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

My own personal opinions about a 4th edition aside... no-one forces your to play D&D! If you want "medieval" fantasy, get the Harnmaster (aka World of Harn) RPG. Seriously, this is not meant as bashing on you; HArnmaster is a good and stable system. Or play Warhammer, it had a functioning skill system long before D&D 3E came around. Both RPG are far more "medieval" than (A)D&D ever was.

I've written pages and pages about why (A)D&D has NEVER been "medieval" fantasy, but I seriously need some sleep right now, so don't get me started on this topic...

Read interviews with Gary Gygax, (A)D&D has always been based off and heavily influenced by not just Tolkien, but mainly the works of Fritz Leiber ("Lankhmar") and Jack Vance ("Dying Earth") not to mention Howard ("Conan"). The whole damn wizard magic system with memoed spells is taken directly from Dying Earth setting!

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads.

Er, no? My rogue just died exactly that last session. Ranks in Tumble skill and high Reflex save have to be good for something. "Death from above".

I think part of the problem here is that rogues weren't the sort to jump around. That's what Monks and Ninjas do. Jumping over somebody's head isn't exactly stealthy, which is the general rogue archetype. Of course the rogue is flexible enough that you could have a jumping rogue in 3.5; you'd just have a different concept.

So there's only one single concept for rogues: "stealthy"?? Seriously. That's nonsense. Rogues were runing up walls long before Monks or Ninjas did. There were no Monks or Ninjas in AD&D 2nd Edution, for that matter, and assassins were limited to NPCs.

NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

Fantasy literature and RPG have become heavily influenced by Japan animé for like 15 years now, and influenced by WoW for 5+ years. Just look at all the elves with 10+ inch long pointy "rabbit ears" sticking off their heads. Occasionally it looks cute, but it's starting to massively annoy me, since I grew up with elves with Spock ears. These days, fantasy artists stick pointy ears on EVERYTHING that isn't a human, even on dwarves on occasion.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

D&D has pretended be "heroic" cinematic fantasy setting, but if I want cinematics, I play GURPS Swashbuckler or L5R. With D&D, the dry-as-dust tactical grid combat system gets in the way. Seriously it's like a boardgame. I agree, WotC wants to make D&D more WoW-like, but they started that with 3rd edition. If all the kiddies play WoW and watch anime, that's exactly what they expect and want out of a fantasy RPG.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

Personally, I like Eberron, as a setting. It doesnt try to pretend it's "medieval". I like Pulp Fantasy, I like Steampunk, I like Indiana Jones movies. Steampunk, and it's relative, "ArcanoPunk"/"WizardPunk" is currently (well for some years now) THE hot genre in movies (Golden Compass), fantasy webcomics (Girl Genius), novels (Death Gate Cycle) and computer games (Arcanum). Other RPGs have mixed tech and magic before, but never this seamlessly.

Eberron with its arcane technology only went the logical path of an arcane industrial revolution.. Magic in D&D has always been there, it's easily available; I've always ranted about how D&D settings espeically Forgotten Realms were bursting with magic at the seams, especially low-level house-hold convenient magic, but there was this unspoken rule that magic was never ever allowed to actually be useful on a societal scale. If it was used in warfare, then only by "heroes", if it was used to ward whole cities (see Silverymoon in the North on Faerun) then only by high-level NPC spellcasters like Elminster. The Eberron artificer, as broken and cheesy as that class is, finally explains where all those funky magic items come from that no normal spellcaster in their right minds would waste their precious XP on.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Am I the only one here thinking that all the stuff this guy is whinging about is stuff already in 3.5? The flipping over guys and jumping over people and all is theoretically either flavored tumble, or dumping an arseload of skillpoints into Jump and Supermanning over people (Praying for a good Jump roll, of course). (It stands to reason that he pumped jump, saying he had a high STR Rogue.)

And the gashing wound? Isn't there something that lets you AoO foes when they attack? And wounding weapons?

The wall run thing is the only one that a 3.5 rogue doesn't normally do, and even then, I'm not going to object. Wall Run is a feat, apparently just with the need for Psionics removed. Besides, Wall Running is nothing I'd put beyond a rogue. It's a great acrobatic manuever for getting across pit traps and the like, and I personally can attest that an average joe can horizontal wall run a good six feet if he knows what he's doing. An acrobat or rogueish type, in a heroic game? That should get up to twenty feet or so. I believe that a wall run skill/feat is all fine and dandy, as long as they prevent doing more than forty feet or so in one go, and it naturally incurs AoO.

I don't object to making it so that Rogues can be acrobats. They already can to a degree in 3.5. This is only taking them a bit farther, so that they can utilize evasion and mobility in combat for once.

[Arbitrarity]

OMG t3h An1m3!1!!!

Oh noes!

[Nakun]

Hey, I'll have you know my 3rd edition rogue had a +47 mod in Jump and a +18 mod in Tumble, and was based off of Kite from .Hack, hell, his name was even Kite, and he did exactly that. He jumped at anything that was too high to hit and tumbled around every enemy he could, and fit in perfectly with the rest of the world despite that. I don't think that the idea of an acrobatic rogue should instantly be labeled as a ninja, even if the conception was anime related. D&D has been about crafting characters that were fun to play and could, in a fantasy world, be conceived as a real person. I mean, were all ready in medieval fantasy, how many historic knights could be brought back from the dead by their religiously inclined pals when they took a beating.

I say if D&D begins pulling from different fantasy worlds or concepts, all the better because it will enrich the world over all. And Fax_Celestis was right, if you don't like it, it can always be changed.

[Solo]

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

That's a rather narrow view of a broad subject.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Another question: What level was this game played at? If it's over 5, it's totally acceptable to me, and if it's over 10, well, what's the complaint even about here?

[Indon]

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads.

High Tumble modifier and there's a Skill Trick in Complete Scoundrel to run up walls.

So, yeah. Rogues can backflip off walls and leap over people's heads (edit: In third edition). In fact, _tons_ of different characters can leap over people's heads.

It'd be nice to have skill tricks. They could even borrow a bit from the maneuver system and have them rechargable. That'd be nifty.

[Bosh]

Well D&D has always been high fantasy, now they're just making it more across the board high fantasy instead of high fantasy magic and low fantasy fighters. For the sake of sanity they had to either smack the casters down to earth or let the other characters do fantastic **** and they chose to go with the second *shrug*

If you want low fantasy (as I do most of the time) play d20 Conan or something. I had a great campaign with it in which I heavily houseruled it and had a game based on the Icelandic Sagas (with about as much magic as was present in those stories). I also want to give a very high fantasy campaign a shot next year and for that I'll use 4e.

[kamikasei]

Okay, seriously, I don't want to be unfair in singling you out here and I don't intend this as a personal attack, but:

...ninjas and aliens and psions... apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

...come on! It cheapens what valid criticism and concern there is about 4e to make every hint that WoTC drops into a "ZOMG psions ToB animeeeeeeee!" Of course they're going to talk up how flashy and exciting the stuff they're pulling in their sessions is; it's viscerally appealing to imagine playing a character with kewl moves, and easier to advertise than ten sessions of deep character development. But it seems a lot of people hereabouts are turning quite mild statements about ability trees based on weapon type, enhanced use of skills in combat, etc. into a phantasmal vision of nightmarish "magic fighters" who shoot lightning from their warhammers and rogues who teleport about the battlefield hamstringing people from above. It's unfounded and it damages your credibility.

[horseboy]

Additionally, the story team has been doing some really exciting things connecting monsters to one another and building a coherent ecology for the world of D&D, and that's another thing that MM5 tried to do as well. So, if you are looking to "preview" 4E, add that book to your list.

I find this very odd. Given that this game is SO generic, how can there be a "the world of D&D"? There's like, what 4,5,6 different settings they have used? Which one is "THE" world of D&D?

[tainsouvra]

Of course they're going to talk up how flashy and exciting the stuff they're pulling in their sessions is; it's viscerally appealing to imagine playing a character with kewl moves, and easier to advertise than ten sessions of deep character development.

I will have less of your logic and more of your chicken-little, please.

[Hawriel]

Personaly I hate the artwork in 3.X. It does have a WOW or FF influince to it that I just hate. why becouse i loved the medeavil feal to AD&D. Yes 2nd ed did have one, you could see it in the art alone. A warhammer was drawn like a real warhammer not a 20 pound hammer head on a stick.

My first character was a thief, I moddled him off of Aryl Flynn, Indian Jones, basicly cheesy 60s hollywood robin hood adventure serial movies. He was, and still is, a swashbuckler. He had a the crap kicked out of him alot but I had fun doing it.

So whats rong with thieves jumping around? Nothing so did fighters for that matter. Any one remember the Complete elf, fighter, thief ect books from AD&D? there was a swashbuckler KIT for the fighter and the thief. Kits where PRCs for 2nd ed. Some really powerfull like the Bladesinger. Now its a pritty limp class. Well I think most PRCs are crap.

That is also why im not impressed with the style of the world created by wotc. the kits added to the flavor and consept to a character PRCs are nonsencical and only fead powergaming with bad consept and writing. The prcs I like are usualy the 5lvl ones that add style to a class such as the invisible blade and the devine hammer.

[Solo]

Grammar is your friend.

[Indon]

I find this very odd. Given that this game is SO generic, how can there be a "the world of D&D"? There's like, what 4,5,6 different settings they have used? Which one is "THE" world of D&D?

AD&D monster compendiums had in-depth information on creature habitats, diets, and much more.

Also, I'm pretty sure Forgotten Realms, and then later Greyhawk, were the "Official" D&D worlds.

[Damionte]

Forgotten realms has never been the official D&D world. It's simply been the most popular. before 3.0 there was no official world. D&D was a generic game and you fit it into the world you wanted to play in.

Be that:

Dark Sun
Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
Dragonlance
Ravenloft
Birthright
Mystara
Spelljammer
Planescape
Midnight
Eberron
Oriental Adventures
Your own Homebrew

or whatever....

Another response to Deadspace.. or whatever his name is.
D&D hasn't as you said earlier, always been about just knights in armor and powerful wizards. Or however you worded it. Alternate stories settings have been an official partof D&D since 78.

[Reinboom]

Yay, we get to be able to do things that have been performed by people in the forgotten realms series of books - this makes it so much more D&D!
Wait, we already could. Right reflavoring.

For some reason, people keep confusing Greyhawk, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, or Homebrew Setting into D&D. I don't understand this. Everything is optional and you can reflavor it.

Also, I already thought 3.5 had doppelgangers (aliens), psions, and ninjas? And doppelgangers have been standard from the beginning.
Actually, AD&D also had psionics. And definately had doppelgangers.

What's new again?

[Zeful]

I can make a knight in platemail run Up The Walls. It's two feats away for most characters then max out the Jump skill. There instant full-plate ninja. I can also get a barbarian wielding a sword the size of a helecopter blade, half-orc, 18 base Str, +5 to levels, +6 strength boosing item, +6 manual of Str enhancement, with a 35 Str the half orc could lift 1064 lbs as a light load, which means potientially a sword bigger than the buster sword.

I could keep going and point out that in D&D it's possible to play an Anime character. But then it's only a matter of roleplaying if your idol bard swaps personalities whenever he see's his reflection, or a girl that changes to a mouse when a man of the opposite gender hugs her when she's stressed, well that might require some form of craft contingent and polymorph. Changes gender with water? See above.

I could go on about how anime can be expressed with some roleplay and inventive use of spells. Your gripe seems to be about the fighting anime (DBZ, Nartuo, Bleach, Ranma1/2 etc) in which the main character can defy the laws of phyisics through an exersice of will. 3e can mimic ninjas and Cloud Strife through the core mechanics without much effort. The addition of the psionics ruleset makes it easier. I don't see your point, you don't have to play an anime character in D&D if you don't want to, no one's holding a gun to your head as they make you write the character sheet and tell you how to play, so the 'theme' is a non-issue because you can change it. You can make your players stand on the ground and have them hit each other every 6 seconds or you can describe it as something high energy and cool. So in the end it's up to the DM whether the feel is an anime or a novel, not the mechanics.

I'm done now

[tannish2]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...54&postcount=6





I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

a swashbucker/dervish(for movement mastery) with boots of striding/springing (commin item, correct me if im wrong) and a decent STR can easily jump over peoples heads
second: obviously you dont know any freaky martial arts people, they can actually do that crap, AND MOST OF THEM ARENT EVEN NINJAS!
third: thief acrobat, class from complete adventurer, need i say more?
fourth: dopplegangers are NOT aliens, thats mind flayers, didnt u read any of the fluff in the abberation book?(the name escapes me right now) and i beleive they were considered so much a part of D&D that they were not released with the SRD...
fifth: i doubt wizards would name a spell series (like summon monster or cure) called genericanimeblastattack but if they did, i would just get a staff of genericanimeblastattack 5 for a ninja.... and have an anime character
sixth: it would be very simple to change things... its called house rules....

PS: yes, ebberon is a disaster, if only for the inconsistancy of airships... why not just make a teleport or have an artificer make a teleport 5x/day item?

[Tor the Fallen]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...54&postcount=6





I'm disappointed. Most of the rules changes of 4th edition sound great. Simpler play, less rules to work through, etc. But I and most others started playing D&D to role-play in worlds of knights and elves and wizards, not ninjas and aliens and psions.

Rogues don't backflip off walls and leap over people's heads. NInjas (fake ones, at that) do. Medieval knights don't spin around in whirlwind attacks or do tuck and rolls out of fireballs, but apparently a D&D fighter isn't based on medieval fantasy warrior anymore, it's based on an anime character.

WotC are inventing an entirely new game - not just different rules, which would be fine, but a whole new "cinematic fantasy" genre - and WotC has just taken the D&D moniker so they can capitalize on the brand recognition.

It's like the new rules are being built around the Eberron disaster. That setting in its own pages refered to itself as "pulp-fiction fantasy." I think that sums up the direction of 4th edition, and to a lesser extent 3rd edition, quite well. D&D is no longer medieval fantasy. It's ninja-in-plate-armor fantasy.

Cry me a river.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.

What's so ****ing hard to understand?

[Hyrael]

I'm a big Eberron fan, myself. I know it's not that popular on the boards here, but I like it. I enjoy Dungeon Punk or MagePunk or whatever you want to label it-maybe I'm spoiled by Discworld.

But, Ive always been reassured by the existance of "mainstream" D&D, which maintains a more old school feel. as long as there's a nice big group of people somewhere playing normal, traditional, old-school D&D that I can also game with, I feel better for it. Dungeon Punk is nice in small doses, but I like it because it's something different, not the core of the game. If Dungeon Punk becomes the standard, core state of the game...well, I think I'd rather break out my pointy hat, bushy white beard, and oak staff, get my reliable Fullplate-Clad Sword-and-board buddy, and show everyone that you dont need speaking stones, mirrorshades, magic trains, or kung-fu to kick goblin ass and look cool doing it.

[Damionte]

........ obviously you dont know any freaky martial arts people, they can actually do that crap, AND MOST OF THEM ARENT EVEN NINJAS!
?

Some of them may have been pirates ! :p

[ImperiousLeader]

This does not seem to indicate a substantive change in genre, theme or tone.

[Solo]

Some of them may have been pirates ! :p

But how does the man KNOW that the "martial arts people" are not in fact ninjas?

Is not the true ninja *unknown* to all save his victims?