Dragonwrought kobold

[Nifft]

It's probably unusual for a kobold to commit to xorvintaal as a young adult, so I would expect fluffwise most wouldn't be. Especially if the universe is capricious about the status of DWKs.

The optimal PC DWK might not take level 1 in a class before gaining the Venerable bonus to Int, so doing anything as a young adult might be taboo.

[Vaern]

Everyone is free to mix that little homebrew in there, but the rules don't support it that way. That was his own addition to the rules.

The table for kobold age categories is given in Races of the Dragon ranging from wyrmling to great wyrm along with the ages for which they qualify for each age category, specifically stating that kobolds use the same life cycle as dragons but mature and age much more rapidly.

[Adrunkpotato5]

Are there any non-xorvintaal DWK in the universe? I could not see any drawback in sacrificing non-existing innate spell-casting for a few bonuses.

The drawback is there are a bunch of real dragons playing the game with you and they don't want to compete with you. Taking the xorvintaal template means the GM has an infinite number of reasons to intervene with a killer dragon.

[Doctor Despair]

I've had my eye on dragonwrought kobolds for a while and I've been tallying up what they can do. Correct me I'm wrong but they...

-take epic feats

As I recall, the text discussing taking epic feats as a dragon never specifically says that it applies only to true dragons. It does say that it applies to dragons, however, so all dragons that are the appropriate age category can take epic feats regardless of which side of the fence you land on the "True Dragon DWK" debate.

[Deophaun]

As I recall, the text discussing taking epic feats as a dragon never specifically says that it applies only to true dragons.

It's in Draconomicon, which states in a sidebar in the introduction that it is "mostly" concerned with true dragons. I take this to mean that normal references to dragons in that book should be read as respecting only true dragons. YMMV.

[Mato]

I've had my eye on dragonwrought kobolds for a while and I've been tallying up what they can do.

It won't help. Within a week or two someone else will just post a question/assumption anyway. Just like yours.

Correct me I'm wrong

Ok.

Advancement and Aging
A dragon PC begins at a specified age (in accordance with the current party level in the campaign) and gains character levels as the player wishes over the course of its adventures. As it ages from wyrmling to juvenile, a true dragon’s level adjustment varies between +2 and +6, depending on the age and dragon variety. For a dragon PC, the dragon’s Hit Dice and class levels plus this level adjustment is its effective character level (ECL). For a starting character of juvenile or younger age, this ECL is somewhere between 5 and 20.
As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs, the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment it gains from aging. The character must add this dragon level as the first level it gains after reaching an age shown on the table. It gains no benefit from reaching a new age category until it attains this level.

Lesser Dragon PCs
Using another creature of the dragon type as a player character is rather less complicated than using a true dragon. Such a creature has a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age, so after the character begins play there is no reason to advance the character as a monster again. For example, a wyvern character, with a level adjustment of +4 and 7 Hit Dice, has an ECL of 11 and joins a party of 11th-level characters to adventure. The wyvern continues advancing as a character, just like the other characters in the party.

[Gruftzwerg]

@Mato
you forgot the part that enforces the DM to make LA tables for those"other true dragons" that don't have it so far. LA ain't a requirement for beeing a true dragon, it's a free giveaway for true dragons.
The DM needs to make LA-age category tables for DWK.
He can set em all to LA+0 if he wants or enforce any other values he sees fitting for DWK.

LA doesn't help with DWK beeing true or not. so try again ;)

[Mato]

LA doesn't help with DWK beeing true or not. so try again ;)

I don't think you understand given your excessive hubris, why would I need to try again?

The DM needs to make LA-age category tables for DWK.

According to your circular logic, the DWK is already a true dragon. And because of that, as you've just admitted, the DM needs to make up unprinted house rules that allow a DWK to be a true dragon.

And I can't think of a better short summery of this decade long debate than the last two posts either.

[Malimar]

That only proves that "regular" Kobolds are disqualified.
Note that a non DW-Kobold is already treated as Dragons for all effects related to race:

But may I ask if you have a stat-block for for a DWK anywhere? I guess not. So you can't be sure of that (they are treated as regular Kobolds with their Advancement).

Feats don't change anything they don't say they change. Advancement remains the same because the feat doesn't say it changes it. The claim that this feat changes advancement is unsupported by the text.

[daremetoidareyo]

The drawback is there are a bunch of real dragons playing the game with you and they don't want to compete with you. Taking the xorvintaal template means the GM has an infinite number of reasons to intervene with a killer dragon.

Just get a chaotic Dragon to take you under his wing until you get good.

[Nifft]

According to your circular logic, the DWK is already a true dragon. And because of that, as you've just admitted, the DM needs to make up unprinted house rules that allow a DWK to be a true dragon.

Not that guy but that's not what he said at all.

LA is not a necessary ingredient for a creature to exist.

LA is a necessary ingredient for a powerful race that the DM allows as a PC.

Draconomicon says that any True Dragon which is allowed as a PC but which lacks a table showing LA per age category should have one drawn up by the DM.


Nobody says kobolds are ~forced~ to be a legal PC race. After all, they're from a monster book, just like all the other True Dragons.

But if you're using the Draconomicon and you want to allow Kobold PCs, then the DM is encouraged do what the book says and write up an LA-by-age-category table.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't think you understand given your excessive hubris, why would I need to try again?
According to your circular logic, the DWK is already a true dragon. And because of that, as you've just admitted, the DM needs to make up unprinted house rules that allow a DWK to be a true dragon.

As Nifft has already pointed out, I was referring to:

Other True Dragons
For true dragons other than those found in the Monster Manual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3–22: Additional Level Adjustments.

I didn't admitted anything. I just thought that you would have read the "other true dragons" part which is right before the "lesser Dragon PC" on the same page as your quote..^^
Or at least page1 of this thread where I already quoted it..

It's nothing homebrew or even optional, the DM is enforced to that by RAW.

[Bartmanhomer]

*I'm eating popcorn while watching everybody arguing the most most funniest argument in this thread.*

[Gruftzwerg]

*I'm eating popcorn while watching everybody arguing the most most funniest argument in this thread.*

you're welcome =)
I enjoy these threads too. Almost everybody walks in and thinks he knows the outcome, just to find out how their believes have no ground in RAW (as seen with the Advancement/LA per age category argument..^^).


*btw, I prefer my popcorn salty*

[Bartmanhomer]

you're welcome =)
I enjoy these threads too. Almost everybody walks in and thinks he knows the outcome, just to find out how their believes have no ground in RAW (as seen with the Advancement/LA per age category argument..^^).


*btw, I prefer my popcorn salty*

Do you prefer regular salt or low-sodium salt?

[Gruftzwerg]

Do you prefer regular salt or low-sodium salt?

Regular salt. I don't believe in those pseudo healthy food ingredients. And IIRC low-sodium salt isn't even classified as food. Should give you something to thing about ;)
More fat & more salt is my way to cook. We Turkish people tend to overdose with salt & spices and are still all healthy ;)

[Bartmanhomer]

Regular salt. I don't believe in those pseudo healthy food ingredients. And IIRC low-sodium salt isn't even classified as food. Should give you something to thing about ;)
More fat & more salt is my way to cook. We Turkish people tend to overdose with salt & spices and are still all healthy ;)

Here your regular salt, dude. *I give a container of regular salt to Gruftzwerg.*

[Promethean]

Am now curious what a decent LA by Age Category chart for DWK would look like. Not to mention the fact that a DWK Can't actually use half of the cheese available to true dragons without additional "dragon" templates like Dragonspawn or Half-Dragon. Epic feats at old age also aren't worth much if your campaign setting doesn't use the Epic Level Handbook and caps off at ECL 20.

[Doctor Awkward]

Dragonwrought kobolds are not true dragons.

See the entirety of that thread for further details.

The short version: If the Dragonwrought feat made kobolds true dragons, it would say so explicitly in the feat description. Because that's how the rules work. Since it doesn't, they aren't.

[Promethean]

Dragonwrought kobolds are not true dragons.

See the entirety of that thread for further details.

The short version: If the Dragonwrought feat made kobolds true dragons, it would say so explicitly in the feat description. Because that's how the rules work. Since it doesn't, they aren't.

Eh, I really don't think it can be argued that they are. They have no Breath Weapon, Innate Spellcasting/psionics, innate Special Abilities, Frightful Presence or naturally growing stats/Racial HD. They don't qualify for 90% of the things afforded to true dragons off that fact alone. So for build purposes they need More "dragon" templates stacked on top of them to qualify.

Honestly undermines what I thought the original purpose of DWK was, that Kobolds weren't dragons, but were trying to realize their lost heritage Become Dragons. Which I find would be a great reason for a kobolds to strive for certain for that in play(Without taking things exclusive for dragons mind you, but actually look for some ancient magic that'd allow him to become a dragon).

For the purpose of said player I'd add things from that old encyclopedia arcane book on dragons. One Thing I liked and think would fit is the dragon ascendancy system, where a character trades xp and sorcerer spell slots to acquire draconic features they temporarily manifest at first, but become more innate as they acquire more and make them permanent. Combine that with dragon-pacts in Dragon Magic(WOTC), Dragon Exarcts(MMV), Dragon Vassals(Bestiary of Krynn, Revised), and Dragonspawn(Bestiary of Krynn, Revised) and you have an in story reason for your Players kobold(and all kobolds in general) too seek out a dragon master to aid their ascention. At the end of the adventure(Level 20) I thing I'd actually have the dragon NPC crown the creature as a respected member of the race, Thus transforming the lvl20 character into a 20HD adult dragon.

[Bartmanhomer]

*I stop eating my popcorn for a second.*

Ok, I'm going to say something. First of all Dragonwrought Kobolds are definitely not true dragons. They have no bloodlines or any connections of True Dragons. They're replitians. I don't know who started this silly debate but it's been going on forever. Ok I'm done finished talking.

*I continue to finished eating my popcorn.*

[daremetoidareyo]

Dragonwrought kobolds are not true dragons.

See the entirety of that thread for further details.

The short version: If the Dragonwrought feat made kobolds true dragons, it would say so explicitly in the feat description. Because that's how the rules work. Since it doesn't, they aren't.

That's the thread that convinced me that kobolds aren't true dragons. It's a painstaking read through.

[Promethean]

*I stop eating my popcorn for a second.*

Ok, I'm going to say something. First of all Dragonwrought Kobolds are definitely not true dragons. They have no bloodlines or any connections of True Dragons. They're replitians. I don't know who started this silly debate but it's been going on forever. Ok I'm done finished talking.

*I continue to finished eating my popcorn.*

While they definitely aren't true dragons, I'd definitely argue against them haven't no connection. They're treated as dragons rather than humaniods for the purpose of spell effects, Have multiple draconics rites for unlocking sorcerer related powers, and the dragonwrought feat changes their type to dragon, so while they don't qualify as True Dragons they're definitely descendant from them in some way. Like how a silverbrow human is descendant from silver dragons.

[Nifft]

True Kobolds > True Dragons, which are clearly just bigger, slower Kobolds.

Facts:
- The average True Kobold has more Sorcerer casting capacity per HD than the average True Dragon.
- A True Kobold can become Pun-Pun; a True Dragon can become a pair of high-end boots and a matching handbag.
- True Kobolds got a book which makes them more awesome as PCs; all True Dragons have gotten are books which make them more interesting encounters.

We all know what happens when PCs meet an encounter -- the PCs tend to walk out with a lot of loot, including body parts. The dragon tends to die like a female yeth hound.

[Bartmanhomer]

While they definitely aren't true dragons, I'd definitely argue against them haven't no connection. They're treated as dragons rather than humaniods for the purpose of spell effects, Have multiple draconics rites for unlocking sorcerer related powers, and the dragonwrought feat changes their type to dragon, so while they don't qualify as True Dragons they're definitely descendant from them in some way. Like how a silverbrow human is descendant from silver dragons.

Ok. You got me there.

[Luccan]

Why do Kobolds get all the love? Did wizards of the coast think "should we give the little lizard man cool features OR ONE OF THE CORE RACES? Yep, lizard man it is" Humans get close to no love in D&D, stop the hate and accept humans into the getting cool features club.

To be fair, they get presented as a valid PC option in most books (because even Wizards realized that they weren't threatening to unbalance the game with *gasp* AC+1 and 30ft movement as a Small creature). Every race got to share a "Races of..." book, but since kobolds got an option to be dragons in theirs, it's less that "kobolds get all the nice things" and more "kobolds get kobold things and some get dragon things". Seriously, without Dragonwrought, you're looking at the above mentioned benefits, a -4 total stat change regardless of subrace, the ability to act as Tiny in a limited number of circumstances (useful, but not breaking), crappy natural weapons, darkvision, light sensitivity, and of course, picks. You can get a couple cool racial feats, but beyond that, Dragonwrought (and thus being a dragon) is where the true power of a kobold lay. Without it (and even with it, depending on what books you're using), there isn't too much more than most other races (and I would say probably less than most).

Plus, if you're concerned about the web enhancement, it literally exists because they wanted to make playing as the scaly underdogs more appealing and on a more equal footing without dipping into your feats. I'd say the most disappointing thing is that kobolds probably took up some room that could've been given to giving full-blooded orcs more specific options or goblinoids any specific options.

Also, humans already get some of the best +0 LA racial features in the game and several unique and useful feats.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dragonwrought kobolds are not true dragons.

See the entirety of that thread for further details.

The short version: If the Dragonwrought feat made kobolds true dragons, it would say so explicitly in the feat description. Because that's how the rules work. Since it doesn't, they aren't.

I'll quote some of your linked text and add my answers to it:

The Draconomicon states in no uncertain terms that there exist true dragons and lesser dragons. A true dragon will be explicitly called out as such. If it is not, it is a lesser dragon. Anything else is speculation.

And we have a rule for lesser dragons, that they lack the dragon age categories.. see where this is going?^^

Is not how the rules were ever intended to be read. Every single creature has age categories, if you want to count Middle, Old, Venerable, and Maximum as such.

Sry, but nope. Every creature has "Age/Aging Effects"(!), but only true dragons have "dragon age categories".

Aging Effects != Dragon Age Categories

Complete different things.


* btw, nice that you joined the discussion. I was already missing you and hoped you would join =)

[Deophaun]

My favorite DWK character was convinced that he was indeed a true dragon. He was a Dragonfire Adept and made copious use of the humanoid shape evocation because in his mind it suppressed his fearsome presence, which was so powerful that it broke the minds of lesser creatures, causing them to mistake the majestic dragon in front of them for a lowly lizardrat. He needed his minions with their faculties intact, so it took a few adventures before any other party member realized what he actually was.

[Doctor Awkward]

And we have a rule for lesser dragons, that they lack the dragon age categories.. see where this is going?^^

Nowhere.

A dragon is a true dragon if it is explicitly called as such in the rules.
If it is not called as such, then per those same rules it is automatically a lesser dragon.

All other similarities are irrelevant.

[Luccan]

Nowhere.

A dragon is a true dragon if it is explicitly called as such in the rules.
If it is not called as such, then per those same rules it is automatically a lesser dragon.

All other similarities are irrelevant.

While not their angle, that's what I read their point as. They seems to say a dragonwrought kobold does not have true dragon age categories and is thus not a true dragon.