Darths & Droids IV: Not in Numerical Order

[dmmaus]

If you want to see someone put more analysis into this than any sane person would, I'd recommend giving Dr. Curtis Saxon's Technical Commentaries a read. Star Destroyer bridge article linked here.

Trivia: Curtis Saxton started his Ph.D. at Sydney University in the Astrophysics Department at the same time that I was completing mine. So yes, I knew him, although we never became more than acquaintances.

FWIW: My view is that Star Wars treats technology inconsistently, so this sort of in-depth analysis is doomed to failure, or to special pleading and inventing details to try to make it more consistent than the amount of thought that the writers put in.

[Kornaki]

Spoiler: Sequel Trilogy and Shields

Show

Well, when approaching Starkiller Base in VII, Han has to bypass the shields using Hyperspace. Later the shield needs to be dropped to allow the Resistance to attack.

In VIII, DJ needs to slice the shields on the Supremacy to land.

In Rogue One, obviously that impenetrable shield covering Scarif Base is a major plot point.


But...

In VIII, Poe has no trouble blasting the surface cannons on the Fulminatrix. Ditto the same in VII, but at least there he had just left the hangar.

Shields on the Final Order Destroyers in IX don't seem to prevent Jaana and Finn's Landing Craft from Deploying.


I don't recall any issues with shields either way in Solo.

You could make arguments for why things were different here rather than there, but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency.

An inconsistency? In the sequel trilogy? Say it isn't so!

[Aeson]

Spoiler: Continuing shields discussion

Show

Well, you can't assume that shields prohibit the passage of starfighters because that's the topic being debated here.

The point was that that sequence cannot be used as evidence that shields do not prohibit the passage of starfighters. There appear to be starfighters exiting the hangar at the approximate time at which Anakin is entering the hangar, therefore if the shield blocked the passage of starfighters then it would have to be down at that moment to allow the droid starfighters to leave, thus Anakin's ability to enter the hangar at that time is not evidence for the inability of shields to stop starfighters.

A Star Destroyer has its bridge completely blown away by asteroids and isn't capable of doing anything to stop it. I think it's safe to say that Star Destroyer shields, at the least, do not deflect asteroids.

The asteroid sequence is of very little value in this discussion for two main reasons:
1. The inability of the shield to protect the command tower from an apparently fast-moving kinetic impactor a considerable fraction of the command tower's size says very little about the ability of the shield to protect the command tower from a significantly-smaller kinetic impactor such as a single-person starfighter.
2. The Star Destroyer in question was potentially subjected to other impacts prior to the one which appears to have destroyed the bridge - they've been searching the asteroid field for some time, and dialogue implies that this is not the first asteroid to strike a Star Destroyer without having been interdicted by a turbolaser blast.

Thus, we don't know if the loss of the command tower results from the shield being incapable of interfering with the asteroid, the shield being overwhelmed by the asteroid without damaging it sufficiently to protect the command tower, or the shield having already been brought to a point where it can no longer effectively protect the command tower as a result of prior impacts.

Would you discuss Solo and/or R1?

I would not particularly care to, no; while I think Rogue One is, despite its mediocrity, probably the best of the currently-extant Disney Star Wars movies, I do not consider it to be particularly consistent with the pre-Disney movies, and I do not recall there being anything of particular relevance to this discussion in Solo.

Regardless, if you care to bring up the Y-Wing attack on the Star Destroyers at the end of Rogue One, I would argue that this demonstration of starfighter capability is inconsistent with the threat profile that starfighters present in both the Original and Prequel Trilogies. If a mere four Y-Wings armed with "ion torpedoes" can disable a Star Destroyer, why does the Empire consider snubfighters to be little threat to capital ships? Why are the Rebel pilots so incredulous when informed that a pair of X-Wings would be the only escort each transport leaving Hoth would have to defend it against a Star Destroyer? Why are these ion torpedoes not used by either side at Endor, when presumably at the very least the Rebellion has had opportunity to prepare for the engagement and, given the infiltration team's lack of visible concern at encountering Executor over Endor, seems to have been expecting that they might be confronted by at least one or two Imperial capital ships during the assault on the Death Star? Why are starfighters throughout the Original and Prequel Trilogy effectively limited to harassment attacks against heavy combatants - even, as in The Phantom Menace, when the heavy combatant is at least nominally an upgraded freighter rather than a purpose-built combatant? As to the ramming sequence, it's a) stupid and b) makes very little sense from a mechanics perspective. Finally, the shield over Scarif is another example of a shield which prohibits the passage of starfighters.

[Dire_Flumph]

Spoiler: Continuing shields discussion

Show

Regardless, if you care to bring up the Y-Wing attack on the Star Destroyers at the end of Rogue One, I would argue that this demonstration of starfighter capability is inconsistent with the threat profile that starfighters present in both the Original and Prequel Trilogies. If a mere four Y-Wings armed with "ion torpedoes" can disable a Star Destroyer, why does the Empire consider snubfighters to be little threat to capital ships? Why are the Rebel pilots so incredulous when informed that a pair of X-Wings would be the only escort each transport leaving Hoth would have to defend it against a Star Destroyer? Why are these ion torpedoes not used by either side at Endor, when presumably at the very least the Rebellion has had opportunity to prepare for the engagement and, given the infiltration team's lack of visible concern at encountering Executor over Endor, seems to have been expecting that they might be confronted by at least one or two Imperial capital ships during the assault on the Death Star? Why are starfighters throughout the Original and Prequel Trilogy effectively limited to harassment attacks against heavy combatants - even, as in The Phantom Menace, when the heavy combatant is at least nominally an upgraded freighter rather than a purpose-built combatant?

Spoiler: Snubfighters vs Star Destroyer

Show

I think you're falling into the same misconception as those who say all you need to do to take down a Super Star Destroyer is ram an A-Wing into the bridge. The Y-Wings aren't the only thing attacking the Star Destroyer. Even if we don't directly see much of the capital ship engagements, there's an MC80 (The Profundity), several Nebulon-B Frigates, at least one Braha'tok-class gunship, at least two Hammerhead Corvettes a few CR90 Corvettes supported by a number of GR-75 transports and multiple fighter wings. That's the threat the Star Destroyers are facing.

Before the Y-Wings attack, we hear the line "Hit that Opening!" suggesting, like with the Executor in Return of the Jedi, that combined fire has caused one of the shields on the larger craft to buckle, allowing the Y-Wing bombing to do direct ion damage to the now vulnerable Star Destroyer systems. Without the support fire from larger craft, it's unlikely the Y-Wings themselves would have done any notable inconvenience to the Star Destroyer.

[Aeson]

Spoiler: Snubfighters vs Star Destroyer

Show

I think you're falling into the same misconception as those who say all you need to do to take down a Super Star Destroyer is ram an A-Wing into the bridge. The Y-Wings aren't the only thing attacking the Star Destroyer. Even if we don't directly see much of the capital ship engagements, there's an MC80 (The Profundity), several Nebulon-B Frigates, at least one Braha'tok-class gunship, at least two Hammerhead Corvettes a few CR90 Corvettes supported by a number of GR-75 transports and multiple fighter wings. That's the threat the Star Destroyers are facing.

Before the Y-Wings attack, we hear the line "Hit that Opening!" suggesting, like with the Executor in Return of the Jedi, that combined fire has caused one of the shields on the larger craft to buckle, allowing the Y-Wing bombing to do direct ion damage to the now vulnerable Star Destroyer systems. Without the support fire from larger craft, it's unlikely the Y-Wings themselves would have done any notable inconvenience to the Star Destroyer.

Spoiler

Show

There is an enormous difference in power between a weapon system which can disable a capital ship with a critical hit in the right place but is otherwise at worst a minor nuisance to the capital ship and a weapon system which can disable a capital ship with a handful of shots that don't really seem to be targeting anything in particular. Judging by their on-screen performance, all starfighter weapons in the Original and Prequel Trilogies fall into the former category whereas the ion torpedoes of Rogue One are very much in the latter category, even if the other ships of the Rebel fleet had to create an opening for the attack.

[137beth]

I've already forgotten this part of the movie, so I don't remember if

Spoiler: Episode VII

Show

this is when we hear from Snoke? Either way Nute is definitely not who I expected to hear from.

[Aeson]

I've already forgotten this part of the movie, so I don't remember if

Spoiler: Episode VII

Show

this is when we hear from Snoke? Either way Nute is definitely not who I expected to hear from.

Spoiler: Episode VII

Show

My recollection of the film is that we first hear from Snoke when we see his oversized hologram on Starkiller Base; this is simply the part where Kylo Ren throws a temper tantrum and destroys some consoles with his lightsaber.

[Keltest]

Spoiler

Show

There is an enormous difference in power between a weapon system which can disable a capital ship with a critical hit in the right place but is otherwise at worst a minor nuisance to the capital ship and a weapon system which can disable a capital ship with a handful of shots that don't really seem to be targeting anything in particular. Judging by their on-screen performance, all starfighter weapons in the Original and Prequel Trilogies fall into the former category whereas the ion torpedoes of Rogue One are very much in the latter category, even if the other ships of the Rebel fleet had to create an opening for the attack.

Spoiler

Show

I mean, in ESB the ion cannon used by the rebels was able to do the same thing without even the rebel fleet creating that opening. There is precedent. Ion shots in general are specifically designed to disable machines and electronics but dont really do all that much physical damage compared to a regular blaster or laser. Its also why the clone weapon shots in the prequels are blue. Theyre also using ion weapons, albeit apparently ones with less disruptive and more destructive power.

[hamishspence]

Clone blaster bolts are blue because blasters come in many colours, not because they have an ion component.

[Aeson]

Also, "ion weapons are blue" is a video game convention that has no basis in the movies - the Hoth ion cannon fires red bolts.

[hamishspence]

I'd speculate that the video games got the idea for making them blue, from the stun bolt used on Leia in ANH. Ion weapons are basically stun weapons, but for ships - they take the ship out of action, without actually damaging it.

The superweapon ion cannon seen in TCW season one, interestingly, is purple.

[Keltest]

Clone blaster bolts are blue because blasters come in many colours, not because they have an ion component.

... Huh. I swear that i read somewhere that they used ion weapons specifically because they were more effective against droid soldiers, but now i cant find that source.

[hamishspence]

This might have been what you were thinking of:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/DC-..._rifle/Legends

On the high setting, the large rifle's powerful blue plasma bolts were more than capable of penetrating the armor of most infantry personnel, and because of the hyper-ionization, they were exceptionally effective against both droids and living targets.[6]

[Rogar Demonblud]

In answer to your question in the comments, keybounce, may I point you towards Jim's scheme with 'Fredo/Greedo/Han' in Eps 4 & 5?

[Kantaki]

New comic

A perfectly reasonable response to Nute Gunray living in your computer.

Spoiler: Episode VII The Force Awakens

Show

Also, much better than the temper tantrum canon Kylo threw.
Seriously, a good part of the audience was laughing when I watched the movie.
And at least I just couldn't take the guy seriously after that scene.

[theangelJean]

I had to google "Solidus": "an alternative name for the Slash punctuation mark".

[Dire_Flumph]

Hah, I like where this is going. How do you get your players rethink their allegiance to Team Evil? Make them realize they'll be reporting to Nute.

[Kantaki]

Hah, I like where this is going. How do you get your players rethink their allegiance to Team Evil? Make them realize they'll be reporting to Nute.

"Rethink" as in "make them prioritize taking over"?
Because now they have a motivation to derail any and all plans.
Not that that changes much with these guys.

[Dire_Flumph]

"Rethink" as in "make them prioritize taking over"?
Because now they have a motivation to derail any and all plans.
Not that that changes much with these guys.

No, that would be Pete's MO no matter which side he's on.
But regardless of motive, that gives them all reason to work together now.

Spoiler: (Upcoming Sequel Trilogy Spoilers) So I guess...

Show

Is Palpatine going to be a meat puppet for Nute's mind then?

And I have to say, I'm *really* curious to see Snoke's intro now.

[Kantaki]

No, that would be Pete's MO no matter which side he's on.
But regardless of motive, that gives them all reason to work together now.

Spoiler: (Upcoming Sequel Trilogy Spoilers) So I guess...

Show

Is Palpatine going to be a meat puppet for Nute's mind then?

And I have to say, I'm *really* curious to see Snoke's intro now.

True enough.

Spoiler: Episode XI

Show

Might be. Anakin'd work too. I'm also not sure Gunray would want to go back into a meatbag body. Being an AI has some advantages after all.

And Anakin ultimately was the big bad of the previous campaigns, so him coming back would make sense.

Nute on the other hand, well, it's probably going to be like last time they dealt with a GunrAI iteration. Mayor problem, but not the final boss.

[Xihirli]

This isn't a spoiler since I have no idea if it's gonna happen, but Snoke could be Anakin waiting to betray Gunray.

[SirKazum]

This isn't a spoiler since I have no idea if it's gonna happen, but Snoke could be Anakin waiting to betray Gunray.

Sounds a bit spoilery to me since unspoiled readers have no idea who or what a Snoke is, but hey.

[The Glyphstone]

Sounds a bit spoilery to me since unspoiled readers have no idea who or what a Snoke is, but hey.

They know its the name of Nute's lieutenant as of the last strip, so I think the Snoke's existence isn't a spoiler anymore.

[SirKazum]

They know its the name of Nute's lieutenant as of the last strip, so I think the Snoke's existence isn't a spoiler anymore.

I mean, other than "Nute's lieutenant". But I might be getting too precious with spoilers here, so whatever.

[KillianHawkeye]

I say, Snoke 'em if you've got 'em.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Show of hands: how many have wanted to take a lightsaber to a computer at some point?

*raises hand*

[Keltest]

Show of hands: how many have wanted to take a lightsaber to a computer at some point?

*raises hand*

*Also raises hand*

Frequently a work computer even.

[Rockphed]

*Also raises hand*

Frequently a work computer even.

My personal computer I get admin privileges on, so I can just reformat the offending drive. At work I'm not allowed to be an admin (something about "security"), so lightsabering the computers is much more attractive.

Edit: And, as far as spoilery media go, our non-spoilered readers should also avoid watching The Lego Star Wars Holiday Special until we finish episode 9. Though I'm not sure how many spoilers of 9 it contains. It definitely contains spoilers of 7 and 8. On the gripping hand it does a better job of explaining the salient points of 7 and 8 than the movies do.

[SirKazum]

On the gripping hand it does a better job of explaining the salient points of 7 and 8 than the movies do.

By this point in the discussion, it's probably not spoilery to say that's not a very high bar to clear, right?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Dwarves haven't mined down far enough to find that bar.