Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 50
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sad place

    Default How much money did you lose?

    You have bought a train ticket for €3.9. However, right at the last moment, you forget that you have bought the ticket, so you buy a new one for €5. Then you remember the first ticket, but it's already too late. You're already on the train, and you can't cancel the tickets.

    How much money have you lost?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Linklele!

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl View Post
    You have bought a train ticket for €3.9. However, right at the last moment, you forget that you have bought the ticket, so you buy a new one for €5. Then you remember the first ticket, but it's already too late. You're already on the train, and you can't cancel the tickets.

    How much money have you lost?
    Depends how you define "Lost".

    I'd say €5, since that's the unneeded spending, but other people could say differently, depending on how they'd define it.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    I'd have spent €8.9... but I caught the train. Better than spending €3.9 and not catching it because I forgot I had a ticket.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sad place

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd have spent €8.9... but I caught the train. Better than spending €3.9 and not catching it because I forgot I had a ticket.
    In this case, losing is different from spending in the sense that spending indicates neutral/useful use of money whereas losing money is about throwing money away (compare: losing money in the stock market).

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl View Post
    In this case, losing is different from spending in the sense that spending indicates neutral/useful use of money whereas losing money is about throwing money away (compare: losing money in the stock market).
    If I forgot I had a ticket, I wouldn't have boarded the train, though. I wouldn't say the money was lost, I would say that I spent €3.9 to ride the train and I also spent €5 to teach myself to remember my tickets.

    Call me an optimist.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sad place

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If I forgot I had a ticket, I wouldn't have boarded the train, though. I wouldn't say the money was lost, I would say that I spent €3.9 to ride the train and I also spent €5 to teach myself to remember my tickets.

    Call me an optimist.
    I see, in that case, please disregard my previous post.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    With that story, I'd definitely go for the £5
    If you changed it so the £3.50 ticket stayed at home, then I might go for the £3.50.

    However like Peelee, the key thing is I spent £8.50 on tickets and got a train ride and a learning experience, and once it was £12.00 for train ride, learning experience and a meal it would be history . That would change with values though. £400 would stick around all year (I'd like to think I would be more careful, though)

    If the £3.50 was an advance and the £5.00 was on the day and I wasn't sure. Then I'd say I 'lost' £3.50, but actively feel I'd spent it on insurance (against changing my mind).

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Israel
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    So, you used\showed the ticket of 5 to board the train? In this case, 5 were used, exchanged in return of service, and can't be treated as lost.

    The first ticket wasn't used, at least until now. If it can be used at a later date or time, then it isn't lost as well, it's a saving. If it can't be used, then the money invested in it are lost forever.

    So, I'd say, your loss is either 0 (if cheaper ticket can be used later) or it's 3.9 (if not).
    In either case, the sum of 5 isn't part of loss.
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-03-08 at 07:08 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    None, because upon realizing my error, I find the train man and ask with a wink if special accommodations may be made. With a knowing smile and a nod, he shows me to the roof, and for a low, low price of two tickets, I get to experience the thrill of train surfing.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Depends how you define "Lost".

    I'd say €5, since that's the unneeded spending, but other people could say differently, depending on how they'd define it.
    Exactly this.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    I mean, this exact thing happened to me, and I just went to the information booth, and they refunded me one of the tickets, so, no money lost?
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Wandering in Harrekh
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Depends if the tickets are transferable or not. If so, I sell it to somebody else going the opposite direction for 4.99 Euros (saving them a penny and recouping most of the loss for me). Loss: one cent.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Depends if the tickets are transferable or not. If so, I sell it to somebody else going the opposite direction for 4.99 Euros (saving them a penny and recouping most of the loss for me). Loss: one cent.
    I would pay a cent to not have to dig out 99.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aedilred's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Bristol
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    I think there are a few ways of looking at it and it's one of mindset as much as anything.

    I am presuming for the sake of the scenario that the two tickets are identical in everything except price (and time of purchase) and that they are for that journey only, so can't be repurposed. If the unused ticket can be used later or the tickets are of different quality, it changes the outcomes.

    An analysis I haven't seen yet is that you've spent €8.90 and got two tickets, but that's twice as many as you needed, so the loss is half the total: €4.45.

    Thinking about it legally, and changing the scenario slightly so that a cause of action arises (let's say it was your secretary who made these mistakes, and had to buy the second ticket, and you were the kind of person who'd sue them for it) I think the measure of loss would be the unnecessary expenditure incurred as a result of the mistake, which on the assumptions above, is €5.

    But if the €5 ticket is better than the €3.90 ticket, then the loss is only €3.90.
    Empire! A community world-building game, always recruiting

    GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
    Red Sabres - Season I Cup Champions, two-time Cup Semifinalists
    Anlec Razors - Two-time Cup Semifinalists
    Bad Badenhof Bats - Season VII Cup Champions
    League Wiki

    Spoiler: Previous Avatars
    Show
    (by Strawberries)
    (by Rain Dragon)

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    I think there are a few ways of looking at it and it's one of mindset as much as anything.

    I am presuming for the sake of the scenario that the two tickets are identical in everything except price (and time of purchase) and that they are for that journey only, so can't be repurposed. If the unused ticket can be used later or the tickets are of different quality, it changes the outcomes.

    An analysis I haven't seen yet is that you've spent €8.90 and got two tickets, but that's twice as many as you needed, so the loss is half the total: €4.45.

    Thinking about it legally, and changing the scenario slightly so that a cause of action arises (let's say it was your secretary who made these mistakes, and had to buy the second ticket, and you were the kind of person who'd sue them for it) I think the measure of loss would be the unnecessary expenditure incurred as a result of the mistake, which on the assumptions above, is €5.

    But if the €5 ticket is better than the €3.90 ticket, then the loss is only €3.90.
    Alternatively: if "lost money" implies that one didn't get a good or service in exchange for the money, then loss was €0, and it was just a ticket more expensive than normal due to user error.

    But if "loss" just means "money I used to have and I don't", then it's the full €8.90.

    It's the same as if you buy an item and discover days later you were too early or too late for a sale. It hurts that you spent more money than you might've, but that'll always be the case. You spent money, you got a good or service. The money wasn't lost, it was exchanged. And sure, it is no fun when you don't do it at the lowest possible cost, but that's how things go, sometimes.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    None. The tickets were clearly underpriced if you were willing to buy 2, as such you paid the correct price and the train has been undercharging on other tickets.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Israel
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    I am trying to think by financial rules.
    It was quite a while since when I learned it, so I can be mistaken.
    I described same thing a few posts earlier, but want to give a more "scientific" explanation, to show why I think that the lost money are 3.9 and not something else.

    Financial reports follow this formula: Assets = Liabilities + Owner's Equity
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_equation

    From wikipedia:
    Asset: An asset is something valuable or useful.
    Liability: A liability is defined as the future sacrifices of economic benefits that the entity is obliged to make to other entities...
    Equity: In finance, equity is ownership of assets that may have debts or other liabilities attached to them.
    So, let's go step by step. Again, a few years passed since we learned it, and I can be mistaken. Feel free to tell me if I am not right!

    Step 0 (stating value)
    Action taken: None
    Assets = 8.9$ total
    Liability = 0 (he didn't buy anything yet)
    Equity = 8.9$ as currency in owner's pocket
    8.9$ = 0$ + 8.9$

    Step 1 (buying ticket for 3.9)
    Action taken: Ticket bought for 3.9. Owner intends to use it later, so it's liability. Currency is reduced from equity.
    Assets = 8.9$ total
    Liability = 3.9$ (owns ticket for 3.9 he intends to use)
    Equity = 5$ as currency in owner's pocket
    8.9$ = 3.9$ + 5$

    Step 2 (buying ticket for 5)
    Action taken: Ticket bought for 5. Owner intends to use it later, so it's liability. Currency is reduced from equity. Equity is now zero.
    Assets = 8.9$ total
    Liability = 8.9$ (owns ticket for 3.9 he intends to use, also owns another ticket for 5 he also intends to use)
    Equity = 0$
    8.9$ = (3.9$ + 5$) + 0$

    Step 3 (boarding the train by using ticket for 5$)
    Action taken: Exchanging ticket worth of 5$ in exchange of getting the service of train. The usage of this service is an equity. Money is transferred from liability to equity.
    Assets = 8.9$ total
    Liability = 3.9$ (still owns ticket for 3.9)
    Equity = 5$ as service of using the train
    8.9$ = (3.9$ + 5$) + 0$

    Step 4 (aftermath)
    Action taken: Service used. We deduct money from Equity and Assets (remember that Assets = Liabilities + Equities)
    Assets = 3.9$ total
    Liability = 3.9$ (still owns ticket for 3.9)
    Equity = 0$
    3.9$ = 3.9$ + 0$

    As you can see 3.9 remains as dead weight, permanent liability.
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-03-10 at 09:14 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl View Post
    You have bought a train ticket for €3.9. However, right at the last moment, you forget that you have bought the ticket, so you buy a new one for €5. Then you remember the first ticket, but it's already too late. You're already on the train, and you can't cancel the tickets.

    How much money have you lost?
    That's okay I have purchased a book that I have already owned more than once.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Given my country where you can't change the date that the ticket is valid for, the "lost" money would be either 5 'cause if you had checked better you wouldn't have had to buy that one or 3.9 because that is the ticket you wasted.

    Ultimately I'd go with the 5 one, because even if they taxed me for the lack of ticket I'd just use the 3.9 one later to show I had it and avoid paying the tax/get a refund. And when compared to what the day should have been, you are short on 5... Whatever that symbol is, my keyboard doesn't have it.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)


  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Whatever that symbol is, my keyboard doesn't have it.
    Well, this is a bit awkward....
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, this is a bit awkward....
    Actually, I noticed later that I was looking at the wrong post >.> Didn't see that not everyone was using the same coin.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)


  22. - Top - End - #22
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Actually, I noticed later that I was looking at the wrong post >.> Didn't see that not everyone was using the same coin.
    I didn't either until you pointed it out just now! I just assumed everyone was using Euros. Is the unkown symbol in question £? If so, that's the British pound sterling.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I didn't either until you pointed it out just now! I just assumed everyone was using Euros. Is the unkown symbol in question £? If so, that's the British pound sterling.
    Yeah, that one. Somehow I've got ¥ (which is yen I think?) But I haven't got the pound.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)


  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Yeah, that one. Somehow I've got ¥ (which is yen I think?) But I haven't got the pound.
    Use an "L" - the £ sign is just a fancy "L" with a bar through it (from the french from the latin librum, I think). It relates to why pre-decimalisation our currency - pounds, shilings and pence - was abbreviated to L, S & D.

    That or a "#" which is what american record messages occasinally to tell you to press instead.
    (To me that's a "hash", but it often seems to be called a "gate", oh well.)
    Last edited by Khedrac; 2020-03-10 at 02:15 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    I used to know a lot more of the alt codes, but ive gotten old and fat and now just copy/paste when I see others use symbols I don't have if I want to write them. Keeps things simple.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    It depends on how you want to define the value of the trip. But the distinction between the two ways isn't real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    I am trying to think by financial rules.
    I like the approach.

    You could list the trip as value €3.9 or €5. But on the books, both expenditures are debits (losses) to equity as expenses, and credits (losses) to assets.

    In either case, your assets are down €8.9. You either have an equity loss of €3.9 train expense plus €5 double booking expense, or you have an equity loss of €5.0 train expense and €3.9 forgetfulness expense.

    The OP is presumably treating the trip as a necessary expense and not a loss, but the extra ticket as an unnecessary expense and therefore a loss. But accounting doesn't really work that way (which is why there is no single unambiguous answer to the question).

    It's a €8.9 reduction in assets, and an €8.9 reduction in equity.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2020-03-11 at 09:35 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Israel
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Seems I am the only one who says that the loss was 3.9. Well. okay. Still was interesting to participate. I like exercises like this one!

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sad place

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    Seems I am the only one who says that the loss was 3.9. Well. okay. Still was interesting to participate. I like exercises like this one!
    You are not the only one. I think that the loss was 3.9 as well.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Scarlet Knight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hudson Valley, NY
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    I imagine my kid asking for train fare money.

    I had 8.9; I now have nothing when I could have gotten you there for 3.9. Yeah that's 5 lost I could have spent on beer while you were travelling.

    “A long surcote of pers upon he hade, / And by his syde he baar a rusty blade.” - Chaucer

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How much money did you lose?

    "How much money you lost" is not an unambiguous, well-defined quantity, and therefore there is no single unambiguous answer.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •