What is Love?

[Neon Knight]

I was reviewing all my past characters, looking for new inspiration, when I noticed something odd.

I've made many characters. The majority have never seen play. I've made fantastic ones and a few ordinary ones (who actually stick out because of how ordinary they are.) I've made villainous characters and virtuous ones. These characters had wanted, worshiped, and exemplified many things. Power. Justice. Fortune. Glory. Fame. Respect. Glory. Honor. Valor. Enlightenment. Knowledge. Truth. Peace. The list goes on and on. I could name a dozen attributes, qualities, and modifiers that these characters wanted to be and in some cases, were.

I realized that I had yet to make a character who was concerned with love.

I'm not talking about physical love, or platonic love. I"m talking about romantic love. It's a recurring theme in many cultures. In our day and age people are constantly looking for it. And yet not one of the many fictional people I've made was even slightly concerned with it.

Then I considered the fact that none of the games I'd played in had even the slightest trace of romance to them. Not one of the players or the DMs seemed to acknowledge it in even the slightest manner.

What seemed to me to be a major concern for most of humanity and what some argue is our defining trait was completely absent from the role playing I have experienced thus far.

I'm wondering why this is. Is it some taboo? Am I violating some unwritten law by posting this?

For those who have had romance as a major theme or element of a game, how did it work out? Were the characters written right from the start searching for love, or did it just happen?

I've sort of developed an interest in this theme, so any other comments on it are also welcome.

[Korias]

Well, the reason that many people dont play romantic DND games is that it just gets AWKWARD. And in some cases, it will escalate into mature ranges. In an RL campaign, you'd better be VERY careful on who you play with.
In online campaigns, its more of the fact that the majority of us want to simply kill stuff. Most Relationships come up in game, while others are tied to a specific NPC that is from the past. The book of erotic fantasy details this more, and I belive it has a chapter on romance itself.

Personally, These realtionships can be RP Rewarding. Stealing into the closet with the princess is a great way to get info on the king and the noble court, while it gives your character more deapth. But DND is first and foremost and adventuring game, and people dont have time to go on dates in dungeons (Unless your a Tantric Wizard or Cleric).

[tainsouvra]

It works well in a gaming group that has romance in mind from the beginning. Otherwise, you run into a pretty basic problem--when your character woos some pretty little princess in the game, outside of the game one random D&D geek is hitting on another random D&D geek in the middle of a tabletop gaming session. There's nothing wrong with it, but that's just not what most gaming groups have in mind--players hitting on the DM and the DM pretending to be interested.

[Proven_Paradox]

A major factor in this, for me at least, is that my in-person games are complete sausage-fests. I am the male DM, the players are male, and the characters are male. RPing a female NPC for the players on a platonic level can be awkward enough; players getting romantically involved with someone is just not gonna work. I doubt adding a female player or DM would help that, really--it's just going to be awkward most of the time, and since it's usually a one-on-one thing, it also takes time away from the group. In the end, no one likes that.

For on-line games, I could actually see it working out, but not very often. Everyone involved would need to actually be interested in it, and that cuts me out right there--I'm more interested in adventuring, and sometimes I just want to kill things and take their stuff.

[tainsouvra]

I doubt adding a female player or DM would help that, really--it's just going to be awkward most of the time, and since it's usually a one-on-one thing, it also takes time away from the group. In the end, no one likes that.

The groups I've fun have been predominantly female, actually, and it's the same deal. A little flirting once in a rare while is funny, but any more than that and the rest of the group is itching for real adventure rather than so-and-so's love story.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, the reason that many people dont play romantic DND games is that it just gets AWKWARD. And in some cases, it will escalate into mature ranges. In an RL campaign, you'd better be VERY careful on who you play with.

You have to be careful who you play with in real life too.

In all seriousness, this is the reason: it's awkward for everyone involved, DM and player alike.

[Pironious]

My tabletop game recently had a subplot where one of the characters got married, so it's certainly possible. I'll admit it was a political marriage and it was arranged by the girl's family, but they fell in love anyways and there was a big happy ending, until her husband's father was assassinated at the post-wedding feast.

Our game does have a few romantic things here and there, but then again, we're not a rollplaying group, combat in our game is somewhat uncommon, maybe once every few sessions, which certainly leaves time for other things.

We also have a wide variety of characters and players, being a large group of 10 or so, we have about 5 female characters, not including cohorts (About 4 players have leadership for various reasons)

So sure, Romance in games is certainly possible, and no one feels particularly left out if two players or a player and an NPC are having their own little thing, because most characters are somehow caught up in their own little thing at any given time due to our widely mixed backrounds.

[PaladinBoy]

The primary barrier to any type of romantic subplot in our games is that all of the gamers and the DM are male, and we don't feel comfortable with running it because of that. I would like to try a romantic plot with my character, but I think in order for me and the rest of the group to be comfortable with that, not only would we have to have a girl in the group, but she'd have to be my girlfriend in the real world as well as the fantasy world. Even so, we wouldn't want to steal the spotlight from the rest of the group.

It might work online, but everyone would need to know about it when starting and accept it.

[TheOtherMC]

Love......love is......hmmmm.....

well love is that +2 circumstance bonus that lets you survive one more day

[Quietus]

The groups I've fun have been predominantly female, actually, and it's the same deal. A little flirting once in a rare while is funny, but any more than that and the rest of the group is itching for real adventure rather than so-and-so's love story.

Freudian slip?


I think it's because romance is a very much personal thing. Inside a game, when you've got romantic storylines, if more than cursory attention is paid to them (AKA "Okay Bob, while everyone else heads to the inn for ale and possibly a quick barfight, you take your lady out to a nice place, and enjoy a quiet evening), then the entire session focusses on either one or two people for a period of time, while the rest of the group is going "We get it, they're in love. Let's get moving!".

I do think that it CAN be included, however, it has to be something A) that everyone in the group agrees is appropriate for the game, and B) that's handled exceptionally well by the DM and player(s) in question. Also, C) It should be, for the most part, tended to as noted above. It should be mostly off-camera, so as not to hog the session.

Now, there ARE some games where I've seen this work well - but those were small games. I've got one game I'm in where it's myself, the DM, and a mutual female friend. Since the entire game focusses on just us two *anyway*, we can play out the romantic side of things without worrying about leaving anyone else out. I've also had 1 on 1 games happen where the character took interest in a female NPC, which again, since there's only that one player and the DM, no one's left waiting while things happen.

Outside of those, there's also the obvious "escalation of maturity" that threatens to happen. In the two-player game I mentioned earlier, it's been established than anything mature happens off-camera; We've basically come to the agreement that rather than being explicit, we simply say "We have an enjoyable evening" (*Coughs* Maybe not in those exact words, but still clean), which yes, is typically accompanied by giggling, or "And then we fade to black", which is the better way to handle it.

[kamikasei]

The groups I've fun have been predominantly female, actually, and it's the same deal. A little flirting once in a rare while is funny, but any more than that and the rest of the group is itching for real adventure rather than so-and-so's love story.

Yeah, not only is it likely uncomfortable for those involved as well as those watching, it's also boring. Romance is kind of a one-on-one thing, so it would seriously hog the spotlight.

[tainsouvra]

Freudian slip?

...no comment. I'd really like to, but nope, no comment.

Nice catch there.

Yeah, not only is it likely uncomfortable for those involved as well as those watching, it's also boring. Romance is kind of a one-on-one thing, so it would seriously hog the spotlight.

Actually it just occurred to me that there's a very similar situation that occurs enough that most posters probably have seen it, and it emphasizes why romance is often off-camera if it happens at all:

Ever been out with your friends, and one of them invites his girlfriend? You know the guy I'm talking about, not the one who brings her along as one of the guys, but the one who is going to be so focused on her that the rest of you might as well not be there once she arrives? Isn't that annoying?

The players around the table during a long romantic plot probably feel the same, and for the same reason. For that matter, the characters probably would feel the same, and for the same reason.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

Ahem. I include a lot of romantic subplots in character creation, but they're always with NPC's. It just seems weird to me to flirt with another PC.

[JellyPooga]

Baby don't hurt me...
Don't hurt me...
No more...

[dammit; ninja'd!]

Sorry, I couldn;t help but think of Night at the Roxbury

Anyway, on topic...yeah, love/romance in RPG's either works really well, or doesn't at all.

Much fiction has some kind of love interest (if anything, a higher percentage of fantasy fiction has some kind of love interest than any other type of fiction), so why not RPG's...after all, most RPG's have a grounding in popular fiction, right?

However, as has been pointed out, many RPG groups are male only or have limited female appeal/input/involvement, within which groups, a love-type scenario could well be either be crude and/or awkward.

On the other hand, in a more mature/gender-flexible gaming group, it can be a viable plot device or personality quirk/RP-feature of a game/character.

It all depends on who you play with, really, and how much your gaming group role-plays as opposed to roll-plays...the heavier role-playing the more viable a love-interest becomes.

[Orzel]

When someone brings their girlfriend and their PCs get involved, a TPK occurs from buff and heal hogging. Or worse. PC created subplots. "You don't have to go to eat each time we enter a town. Especially with you two being a wanted criminals with flashing his ID. Oh look the town guard."

It's always either off camera and barely matter or on camera and hog the light in my experiences.

[horseboy]

Baby don't hurt me! Don't hurt me! No more!

(Sorry, I had to do that, it's in my contract)

I was thinking of that the other day. Basically a t'skrang warrior who was a questor of Astedar. He wouldn't just be out there to score, but to "help a brother out". All too often "adventurers" are some of the most powerful beings around, yet have the social graces of rutting vermin. (Gee, I wonder why) It would be his job to help them be socially acceptable and to see that they get their "happily ever after".

[jjpickar]

Well love is...(three days later) and that's the secret to true love.

Seriously though, I play mostly with guys and it feels awkward but I could see it working with a mature group. Personally, I like to play D&D to escape the romance laden fantasy books so as to get more orc thrashing.

[Dr. Weasel]

It really doesn't come up because any attempt is quickly shut down through blatant refusal, arbitrary Succubi or a BBEG's interruption. Anything to avoid this.

[Machete]

Awkward unless its the two Frenzied Berserkers flirting.

Then its all blood smearing, grappling, screaming, and gifting each other body parts of dead enemies.

[The_Werebear]

Definition: Love is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope...Love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose against statistically long odds."

I think that is a noble, if scary, definition. My personal eloquence isn't up to the task.

Love should not really be the main focus of a DND group unless everyone is cool with it. Or involved with it. It takes a very mature group to be able to handle it, and even then it should be kept off camera. However, I will mention that love between two NPC's driving the plot forward can be effective, rewarding, and not give everyone the icky feeling they may get from having to watch two male player's female character's make out.

[LotharBot]

Many D&D groups are made up primarily of teenage males. In a group like that, nobody wants to pretend to be a girl, flirt with another teenage male, etc. There's a lot of social stigma to overcome.

In mixed-gender teenage groups, I suspect the girls already get too much attention from the guys, so they're not likely to be interested in role-playing anything romantic.

In adult groups, for the most part, people have their own romantic lives to live. They're just not interested in fake romance.

It can be done, but it's not going to make sense for the majority of groups.

[Xuincherguixe]

It's come up with some of my characters. And it's always very awkward.

But, that's part of the point I think.

Anyways, as I see it there are a lot of good reasons why it doesn't come up in games often. Which have all been pointed out.

And I get the impression that there's an awful lot of us who haven't got a clue about this stuff. Closest thing to experience I have is from some of the women I was roleplaying with. The soap opera it turned into was actually pretty damn funny.

[Neon Knight]

Huh. That makes sense.

Since the majority of my RP has been online, the awkward factor completely flew over my head.

I guess there are a lot of reasons for the lack of romance most of them pretty darn good ones. Guess I'll get back to the drawing board and come up with a less creepy idea.

However, I will mention that love between two NPC's driving the plot forward can be effective, rewarding, and not give everyone the icky feeling they may get from having to watch two male player's female character's make out.

So, if the players hit on each other, or if a player hits on the DM, its awkward and wrong, but if the DM hits on himself, it is okay?

Yes, I realize that is not what you meant.

[Xuincherguixe]

If it's awkward and wrong that's all the more reason to do it :P

[Korias]

So, if the players hit on each other, or if a player hits on the DM, its awkward and wrong, but if the DM hits on himself, it is okay?

Yes, I realize that is not what you meant.

Yes, thats perfectly ok, As the DM is simply conveying the reaction of the players action into the world. In Online RP, people will play female characters ( I happen to) and will often get into online relationships. In RL, Married couples might have characters enter into relationships. Truth be told, I've seen people get MARRIED cause their characters did. Well, not JUST because their characters did, but they did it as a precursor saying that they were getting married in RL. At first we thought "Yeah. Your Characters are getting Hitched." And then we realized "Congrats!"

[Ravyn]

I've actually seen romance sideplots in a good half of the games I've been in--PC-NPC, PC-PC, NPC-NPC--heck, one of my personal favorites was an NPC-PC-PC love triangle which was finally resolved by the second PC deciding she was far more interested in keeping her reputation spotless and in the potential alliances the match between the other two could work for. It's all in how the group functions--the more RP-minded people tend to do it more justice, I think, and particularly in an electronic format where it can really be a side thing and not just take over the table's attention, it can be just as interesting a sideplot as anything.

[Stephen_E]

The one way you might be able to base a PC around the concept of romantic love is to play a character who is always trying to put others together romantically.

The sort of person who's a sucker for the soppy story and crys at weddings and when watching romantic movies.

You'll need a GM who'll work with you, but basically your PC will always leap in to help the starcrossed lovers, battle the Orc tribe to rescue someone fiancee, try and bring peace to the warring families so the couple can marry, ecetre.

There are heaps of adventures you can get into playing the "love doctor".
Just think, as you reach high levels your renown may grow and you'll find outsiders turning up asking you to find them a perfect mate (when it's a Balor asking, you really don't want to say "No" or screw it up).

Stephen

[brian c]

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

Ahem. I include a lot of romantic subplots in character creation, but they're always with NPC's. It just seems weird to me to flirt with another PC.

If I had posted without reading the thread, I would have to edit in that I was double ninja'd.


Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh
Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh

[Dhavaer]

Yeah, not only is it likely uncomfortable for those involved as well as those watching, it's also boring. Romance is kind of a one-on-one thing, so it would seriously hog the spotlight.

It's something to do in a PbP when all the other players are offline, though.

[Tor the Fallen]

If I had posted without reading the thread, I would have to edit in that I was double ninja'd.


Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh
Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh

Oh, I don't know, what can I do
What else can I say, it's up to you
I know we're one, just me and you
I can't go on