Martial Controller

[Garfunion]

I’ve decided to revisit my attempts at we organizing 4th e D&D.
Right now I’m making sure that there is four classes to each power source, each class tied to role. However the martial power source is lacking a controller class. So I’m wondering if I can transform a current controller class into a martial. I was thinking about re-flavoring the Seeker as a martial class.

Side note; i’m trying to go back to the basics of class design as it was in the 4th players handbook.

[Kurald Galain]

Well your first problem is that the seeker is not a controller

[Garfunion]

Well your first problem is that the seeker is not a controller

I’m reading it right now and it say controller.

[Tvtyrant]

I’ve decided to revisit my attempts at we organizing 4th e D&D.
Right now I’m making sure that there is four classes to each power source, each class tied to role. However the martial power source is lacking a controller class. So I’m wondering if I can transform a current controller class into a martial. I was thinking about re-flavoring the Seeker as a martial class.

Side note; i’m trying to go back to the basics of class design as it was in the 4th players handbook.

Controller is a rather weird archetype. Defining it is odd, because Wizards are swiss army knives and Warlocks/Classic Rogues use a lot of debuffs so the overlap is large.

I would define a controller as sacrificing actions to reduce the number of actions the enemy can take, acting as a force divider in the opposite fashion of how a leader is a force multiplier. So a martial controller needs to be able to trade actions to take away multiple enemy actions, putting the team out ahead. They are going to have less cinematic ways of doing that then making walls or clouds of noxious gas, unless you go hand grenade ninjas.

[Garfunion]

unless you go hand grenade ninjas.

I was actually thinking along those lines having someone throwing non-magical items like caltrops, marbles, grease, smoke, etc. unfortunately that’s kind of a gadgeteer and the Artificer has claim that cinematic element. I was thinking about turning the Ranger into a controller due to their connections with traps and snares and using their environment to their advantage.

[Jaeda]

I was actually recently trying to figure out how I would implement a Trapper class for a 4e-derived heartbreaker as a controller for a Device power source (an Alchemist would also be a Device user), but I was having trouble getting it to work right. More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character. A BFS wielder who uses lots of large swings and cleaving attacks (hitting multiple enemies, adjacent enemies, or a blast) could do the former, whereas a brawler/pugilist character who grapples, trips, pins, and otherwise fights dirty to inflict slow, immobilize, stun, etc could do the latter. I could see knockback, tripping, or DoTs from getting hit by a giant sword that cleaves through multiple targets, but it probably wouldn't do some of the weirder things that controllers can do; this character would be a striker first and a controller second.

A grenadier could be a controller, by throwing different types of bombs with special effects, but it would be debatable whether they would even be a martial character.

[Tvtyrant]

I was actually recently trying to figure out how I would implement a Trapper class for a 4e-derived heartbreaker as a controller for a Device power source (an Alchemist would also be a Device user), but I was having trouble getting it to work right. More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character. A BFS wielder who uses lots of large swings and cleaving attacks (hitting multiple enemies, adjacent enemies, or a blast) could do the former, whereas a brawler/pugilist character who grapples, trips, pins, and otherwise fights dirty to inflict slow, immobilize, stun, etc could do the latter. I could see knockback, tripping, or DoTs from getting hit by a giant sword that cleaves through multiple targets, but it probably wouldn't do some of the weirder things that controllers can do; this character would be a striker first and a controller second.

A grenadier could be a controller, by throwing different types of bombs with special effects, but it would be debatable whether they would even be a martial character.

Have the powers target the spaces around you or your allies? So if the enemy targets them they get hit with the trap. You could even make them majority reaction powers, picking the locations on your allies turn with the implication they were preset.

[Garfunion]

As I continued to ponder on the “ninja” theme I was reminded of a cartoon(Avatar the last Airbender) character that used martial arts to disable the enemy around her. So perhaps someone who is capable of moving around the battlefield a lot without getting attacked combine that with various items that they can throw on the ground. Although this might step on the toes of the monk class.

[Anxe]

Maybe you just introduce it as a bunch of alternate class features and powers for monks then?

[OracleofWuffing]

Kind of had the thought of using whips: tangle someone up to Prone or Immobilize, and then Pull them. Add some Sonic damage burst attacks from cracking the whip, maybe Deafen or Daze as you get stronger. Give it a class feature to make whips do damage, and increase its range as you go up tiers. Sure, whips don't work that way, but if I can have a guy that shouts at people to replenish their HP because he's so courageous, I'll make a shot at having a guy that can whip from farther away because he's good with whips. I don't know if there's enough in there to remain relevant all thirty levels, but there's room to start.

But, uh, returning that to the idea of applying it to an existing class, uh... Rats. I really want to say, "Take a Fighter, drop Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, Heavier Armor proficiency, and 3 surges per day (so 6+con). Add Whip Training, increase whip damage to 1d8, twice per encounter whenever you [land an attack with a whip weapon whatever the verbiage would be that would allow this to apply to melee basic attacks and powers with the weapon keyword while wielding a whip] you may choose to add Pull (Wis min 1), Prone, or Dazed EONT to the attack, and an at-will power that lets you make a Burst 1 in range of your whip that does 1d6+Wis sonic damage. Avoid selecting powers that aren't controller-y." Thing is, part of what makes Fighters the unofficial martial controllers, is their Defender capability, so it might come out as an even worse Controller than just rolling an unmodified Fighter.

And yes those Controller abilities should scale with tiers I'm just trying to keep things condensed because I have zero experience in mid or high level play.

But, uh, if you're just concerned about the Controller role as printed, well, someone at Wizards believes Hunters are Martial and Primal Controllers...

[Eurus]

To be clear, you're talking about a martial but not melee controller? That should be easy enough to do with just refluffing your class of choice, yeah.

Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...

[paladinn]

I've never been a fan of 4e, and even less of the "role" concept. 5e is better for dropping it.

That said, the issue of a martial controller always puzzled me. All the other "power sources" had a class for each role (in the pre-Essentials books); but there didn't seem to be a martial controller.

Someone at my local FLGS 'splained it to me: the archer ranger was supposed to fill that niche. Specializing in distance attacks, it does the most toward battlefield control.

Like I said, not a fan; but that was my understanding.

[Keledrath]

Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...

Not really? That's just a druid focusing on beast form.

Honestly, my goto martial controller has always been the Seeker|Ranger hybrid grabbing Archery Mastery for either Clever Shot or Rapid Shot. I've seen about a half dozen variations on this setup using different races, weapons, and paragon paths to accomplish different goals. It's a surprisingly versatile controller.

[R.Shackleford]

I ran a game once where we re-purposed the Invoker into a Martial Controller. Had them use weapons instead of implements.

I think it might have been, essentially, a hybrid Invoker/Warlord (but with rule modifications).

Been a while.

[sandmote]

More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character.

I'd a weapon throwing factor to this, like using a rope as a lasso or for bolas to restrain. The roman pilum was used similarly, to get stuck in a target and interfere with their movement, so there could be abilities using throw weapons like that. And if they depend on clean lines of attack, these might help make up the difference of how much the enemy can maneuver.

Maybe call the class "skirmisher," and use "ninja" and "trapper" for paragon paths?

[tarak_666]

Your best bet might be a refluffed Seeker or Invoker, or maybe a modified druid. Take away wild shape, dump the beast form keyword, and toss a few of the non-beast form powers, change the power source, and you would have a functioning martial druid...

[Keledrath]

If refluffing is on the table, I don't see why you even need to modify the druid. Just fluff wild shape as a stance change or weapon swap, probably between like a bow in humanoid form and a melee weapon in beast form, since they tend to be ranged/area vs melee/close

[Mark Hall]

To be clear, you're talking about a martial but not melee controller? That should be easy enough to do with just refluffing your class of choice, yeah.

Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...

Hmmm... pole-arm specialist? Many of their powers operate in a two-square burst around them, meaning they take up a sizable amount of real-estate, effectively threatening a 5sq*5sq section of the battlefield at all times. Powers that push, slide, or slow.