OOTS #1109 - The Discussion Thread

[SilverCacaobean]

Maybe Elan will be there when Roy really needs wise counsel.

I admit, this is one of the sentences I never expected to see.

[LuminousWarrior]

I agree. Durkula has just spent 10,000gp worth of diamonds and opals and 10 minutes to set up that Symbol of Death--doesn't seem he'd waste that much time and money on something that wasn't ultimately supposed to do anything.

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's just that the money is a non-issue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's just that the money is a non-issue.

Errr... he is planning to avoid said doomsday by going off-plane, so in this case, he really can take it with him.

GW

[factotum]

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends.

Maybe, but to get to the point the world ends he needs to spend his resources wisely, and using them to put up a Symbol of Death that he never expects to actually *use* is suboptimal at best. Also, we're not talking about money per se, we're talking about rare and expensive material components for magical spells, which will totally still be useful when world #3 comes around.

[Kish]

I'm of two opinions at this point:

1) Hilgya's early attempts to scry Durkon automatically failed because Durkon was dead.

Both your opinions seem to hinge on the unstated assumption that Hilgya didn't start trying to scry for Durkon until after his death a few days ago. That seems a thoroughly odd assumption to make.

[eilandesq]

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's just that the money is a non-issue.

Also, the main use for diamond dust is raise dead/resurrection spells. Durkula isn't going to need to cast either of those barring some rather unlikely developments, and it even has a bonus of screwing over the OotS from beyond the ungrave if they dust Durkula and they want to Resurrect Durkon--they had to burn through their fund to buy diamond dust back in #1029 to keep their ride with the Mechane and its crew going.

[brian 333]

Both your opinions seem to hinge on the unstated assumption that Hilgya didn't start trying to scry for Durkon until after his death a few days ago. That seems a thoroughly odd assumption to make.

How long has Durkula been dead? But you are correct, I did make that assumption because otherwise there would be no reason for her scrying attempts to have failed. Here's why:

Durkon had no reason to not 'accept the call' if he knew she was scrying. They could have scryed one another, talked it out, and gone on to live a life of child support payments, holiday arguments over visitation privileges, and parental guilt.
That would have been a hilarious scene if Sending was used.

Durkon had every reason to inform Roy that scrying attempts were being made if he did not know it was Hilgya making them. Being aware of a scrying attempt and not informing Roy would have been out of character for Mr. Lawful Good. This could have happened, but it has not been seen in comic so far.

Finally, Durkon has never displayed any awareness of scrying whether on TeeVo or through floating green eyeballs. According to what we have seen of his behavior, he would have been oblivious, which indicates that he never succeed at a Will check vs. scrying. Meaning the scrying attempts should have worked. Hilgya says they did not.

[Keltest]

How long has Durkula been dead? But you are correct, I did make that assumption because otherwise there would be no reason for her scrying attempts to have failed. Here's why:

Durkon had no reason to not 'accept the call' if he knew she was scrying. They could have scryed one another, talked it out, and gone on to live a life of child support payments, holiday arguments over visitation privileges, and parental guilt.
That would have been a hilarious scene if Sending was used.

Durkon had every reason to inform Roy that scrying attempts were being made if he did not know it was Hilgya making them. Being aware of a scrying attempt and not informing Roy would have been out of character for Mr. Lawful Good. This could have happened, but it has not been seen in comic so far.

Finally, Durkon has never displayed any awareness of scrying whether on TeeVo or through floating green eyeballs. According to what we have seen of his behavior, he would have been oblivious, which indicates that he never succeed at a Will check vs. scrying. Meaning the scrying attempts should have worked. Hilgya says they did not.

Succeeding at your will save is different from the check to notice a scrying sensor.

[Fyraltari]

snip

You can't talk to someone by scryin on them.
She did say he subsconciously stopped her from scrying : he did not notice the attempt at all.

[Doug Lampert]

Succeeding at your will save is different from the check to notice a scrying sensor.

Yes, in fact if you succeed on your will save then there is no scrying sensor to notice so it becomes impossible to notice the sensor.

But you do get a spellcraft roll to know what spell you just saved against: 25 + spell level: After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.

But in no case do you know who's trying to scry on you without some method beyond just making a save and a check. Spotting the sensor doesn't tell you anything beyond that there's a sensor, making the spellcraft check doesn't tell you anything but what the spell was.

Assuming that Durkon would have known who or what was forcing him to make will saves every now and then and would then have announced his intent to voluntarily FAIL any future will saves just in case it was someone wanting to talk to him is not a justified assumption (gosh, I sure hope no one throws a hostile will save spell at me while I'm voluntarily failing all will saves).

Note that there's NO WAY TO KNOW what the spell is in advance in the case of scrying, the check to spot the sensor or identify the spell is explicitly after the save.

And note also that SENDING is a lower level spell than SCRY for clerics and is actually USEFUL for talking to someone and does not allow a save in the first place. So the existence of a save makes the spell almost by definition hostile rather than a communications attempt. In fact, spells that allow a save but are usually harmless have the save specifically marked as "harmless" and the saving throw is rolled only if the target desires to do so (as opposed to the usual idea that the save is the default). Since Scry is not marked harmless you don't get any indication that you don't need to save prior to rolling the save.

[brian 333]

The scry each other bit was not incorrect. If each can hear what is going on at the point of their focus, as Hilgya certainly can, they can scry on one another and have a conversation..

As has been pointed out, there is nothing that gives a character information on who is trying to scry them, but Durkon is able to cast Divinition, and I'm betting Thor would inform Durkon that his baby-momma is looking for him. (This is how Hilgya got back in the picture.) And Hilgya doesn't get a save on that. This would also settle any questions of paternity at the same time.

But, the reason Durkon may not be aware of the attempts is his less than 12 Int score. All he'd have known is that he was getting repeated Spellcraft Checks and if any of those happened to succeed he'd have been aware of divinition magic. At which point he would have informed Roy, which we never saw, but which could have happened in a future flashback panel.

Which brings us back to the HPoH. Hilgya very logically may have not even looked for Durkon until she decided that the best revenge for stretch marks is to murder the guy who caused them.

[Kish]

Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons, so put the D&D rulebook down and look at what Hilgya said. Scrying is resisted by one's subconscious, in OotS if not in any tabletop roleplaying games; she's perfectly willing to assume the worst about Durkon but she still didn't take her scrying failures to mean he was actively and knowingly repelling her. Durkon has (on-panel, even, if Dragon Magazine counts) made Will saves he never learned the reason for. Basing assumptions that she only started looking for him a week or so ago on assumptions about Durkon's stats and how scrying works in OotS is unwise, and trying to build on those assumptions without even stating them first even less wise.

[Doug Lampert]

The scry each other bit was not incorrect. If each can hear what is going on at the point of their focus, as Hilgya certainly can, they can scry on one another and have a conversation..

Why in the world would a spell designed to secretly spy on someone let the target hear what you are saying. The spell does NOT give any such capability. Hilgya can hear through the sensor, that's part of the spell, the target can't hear squat through the sensor. Why would he be able to hear?

Again, this is NOT the talk at a distance spell, that's Sending, this is the spy at a distance spell. It isn't intended to allow two-way communications, and it does not allow two-way communications.

[Keltest]

Why in the world would a spell designed to secretly spy on someone let the target hear what you are saying. The spell does NOT give any such capability. Hilgya can hear through the sensor, that's part of the spell, the target can't hear squat through the sensor. Why would he be able to hear?

Again, this is NOT the talk at a distance spell, that's Sending, this is the spy at a distance spell. It isn't intended to allow two-way communications, and it does not allow two-way communications.

The intent is that the two spellcasters are both scrying each other at the same time. If Sending is writing somebody a letter, or holding a phone conversation, then this would be setting up a video chat.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yup. Yet another way the rules can be gamed to achieve something never intended.

[Jasdoif]

Why in the world would a spell designed to secretly spy on someone let the target hear what you are saying. The spell does NOT give any such capability. Hilgya can hear through the sensor, that's part of the spell, the target can't hear squat through the sensor. Why would he be able to hear?

I think brian 333 is positing some convoluted scenario where Hilgya and Durkon managed to scry on each other concurrently; where Durkon hears Hilgya through his scrying and Hilgya hears Durkon through her scrying. Which could work, if they were willing and already in communication with each other to coordinate the timing....I'm thinking that if Hilgya had contacted Durkon to try arranging something like this, then Hilgya had contacted Durkon.

[Lord Joeltion]

Yeah. Not that there isn't room for a fakeout (I'm kind of expecting the inexplicably-less-than-ten-minutes-to-cast sending to be incongruous with what they just saw); but expecting the Order to scry HPoH means expecting the Order can scry HPoH, and the whole ambush is liable to fall apart if HPoH isn't there with the decoy...as opposed to actually working on getting the world ended.

Well, I said Durkon could be scrying them, but that was merely an example. I originally meant that he was keeping an eye on them by whatever means (or expecting to be spied). Durkula is fond of using his minions for tactical advantage after all. Also, getting his hands at business without worrying about the more pressing matters (ie: preventing the party from arriving before it's too late) would consist of Evil-Stupid.

Either way, fake or not, Durkon was shown to be concerned about delaying the party; so I'm pretty sure he isn't being Evil-Stupid. If he is keeping a good channel of information, then he might be aware a high level cleric is with them; and if I were him, I wouldn't discard the chance that the clerics of Thor would be trying either way. A simple "sending" on their part would communicate Roy about HPoH's strategy; so covering that possibility doesn't strike me quite as crazy*. Specially with a spell like Symbol of Death involved.

*Durkula has no way of knowing that in reality, that is totally not the case.

I agree. Durkula has just spent 10,000gp worth of diamonds and opals and 10 minutes to set up that Symbol of Death--doesn't seem he'd waste that much time and money on something that wasn't ultimately supposed to do anything. Also, he'd have to know exactly when the Order were planning to scry on him in order to do it.

That's... actually where my suspicions arose originally from. Spending so much resources in a spell* that isn't guaranteed to work 100% doesn't look like smart management to me. And I don't mean just the money, but the time/effort invested too. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Order has it easy, but there's probably a handful other strategies Durkula may have chose, but opted for the Symbol instead. That is for me, at least suspicious.

*Granted, the spell is overkill. But in a cave environment, there are various ways it might be rendered useless. Again, I'm not implying that in the actual comic this will turn out to be true, just that the possibility exists.

The underlined part is one thing I just wanted to point out: If the Symbol of Death is fake, he actually has wasted no resources on it, except whatever time it took for him to wait them to bite the bait. While he is staging the scene, his minions could have been preparing other traps (if any) or doing the prep for whatever his actual next move would be.

However, I will point out that Durkula probably knows about Hilgya, because he has some survivors from the trap in the corridor with him and will no doubt have asked them how they failed to defeat the Order. So, he knows they have a reasonably high-level cleric with them, although he probably doesn't know who it is as yet.

This is another reason why a staged false trap would work. Knowing you are being spied is a HUGE tactical advantage, more so than spying the enemy yourself. Again, my question wasn't about "how much of a chance there is for this very contrived situation to actually happen?"; but: "is there any reason to discard this Symbol of Death won't turn out to be a red herring for the party?"

Why in the world would a spell designed to secretly spy on someone let the target hear what you are saying. The spell does NOT give any such capability. Hilgya can hear through the sensor, that's part of the spell, the target can't hear squat through the sensor. Why would he be able to hear?

Again, this is NOT the talk at a distance spell, that's Sending, this is the spy at a distance spell. It isn't intended to allow two-way communications, and it does not allow two-way communications.

I think he was referring to simultaneous scrying, which would essentially become the D&D equivalent to video-call. When you talk, the other's scrying spell would serve as your microphone (audio-receptor); your own scry would function as the speaker (audio-emitter) to hear what the other is answering.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think Hilgya would have described the resistance to scrying as "subconscious" in #1108 if that's not how it works in OotS. Durkon was never aware he was resisting that particular spell, and (RAW be damned) may not have been aware at all that he was "making a saving throw".

Also a cleric of Durkon's level is going to be saving with +10 from class progression and also +WIS modifier, which is likely to be +6 or even higher for a WIS based caster. That lets him add +16 to his die roll, less -5 because Hilgya knows him well. I don't think Kudzu counts as a "body part" of Durkon.

Durkon was probably rolling with +11. Hilgya's DC was 10 + 5 (spell level) + her wisdom modifier, which might be as high as Durkon's.

Durkon had a 50-50 chance of saving if Hilgya's DC was 21 (10 + SL=5 + WIS MOD=6). She should have gotten through at least once.

[oonker]

I don't think Hilgya would have described the resistance to scrying as "subconscious" in #1108 if that's not how it works in OotS. Durkon was never aware he was resisting that particular spell, and (RAW be damned) may not have been aware at all that he was "making a saving throw".

Also a cleric of Durkon's level is going to be saving with +10 from class progression and also +WIS modifier, which is likely to be +6 or even higher for a WIS based caster. That lets him add +16 to his die roll, less -5 because Hilgya knows him well. I don't think Kudzu counts as a "body part" of Durkon.

Durkon was probably rolling with +11. Hilgya's DC was 10 + 5 (spell level) + her wisdom modifier, which might be as high as Durkon's.

Durkon had a 50-50 chance of saving if Hilgya's DC was 21 (10 + SL=5 + WIS MOD=6). She should have gotten through at least once.

She spent one night with him, that hardly counts as "Hilgya knows him well".

[zimmerwald1915]

She spent one night with him, that hardly counts as "Hilgya knows him well".

I'm sure Hilgya would take great offense at the implication that she "knew" him poorly

[137beth]

Why in the world would a spell designed to secretly spy on someone let the target hear what you are saying. The spell does NOT give any such capability. Hilgya can hear through the sensor, that's part of the spell, the target can't hear squat through the sensor. Why would he be able to hear?

Again, this is NOT the talk at a distance spell, that's Sending, this is the spy at a distance spell. It isn't intended to allow two-way communications, and it does not allow two-way communications.

As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.

(emphasis mine)
The spell description explicitly allows you to open a two-way communication by casting a 0th level spell through the Scry.

[Doug Lampert]

(emphasis mine)
The spell description explicitly allows you to open a two-way communication by casting a 0th level spell through the Scry.

A level 0 spell which is not on the cleric list, and, being level 0 is not on any domain list, and hence that NEITHER of them can cast.

How is this relevant?

Or, of course, if talking were her goal, she could have cast the lower level Sending spell that gives no save and allows you to talk.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm sure Hilgya would take great offense at the implication that she "knew" him poorly

Carnal knowledge counts for something, amIright?

[Kish]

A spell which, even if Hilgya and Durkon both got it somehow, would still have a failure chance as long as either of them is not level 20.

Why is anyone acting like there's a mystery to solve here, anyway? Hilgya did not contact Durkon because she was not trying to contact Durkon. Hilgya did not successfully scry on Durkon because, as she spelled out, he made Will saves without ever knowing what he was saving against.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which could work, if they were willing and already in communication with each other to coordinate the timing.

Hmmm, good point. I guess we need to be having regularly scheduled Scry-pe calls instead of calling on a whim.

[brian 333]

Multiple failed saves versus low DC can be made and multiple successes versus high DC can be made. I've done the first and seen the second. But with multiple attempts, as seemed to be what Hilgya was saying she did, she should eventually have succeed even against a save Durkon can only fail on a 1. The odds don't get better with each roll, but over time each number on the die should turn up.

So it is very possible that Durkon just made the save more than once, but each attempt to scry reduced his overall chance to succeed. Which brings me back to the idea that the attempts auto-failed because Durkon was dead.

The final success only occurred when Hilgya actually scryed for Durkon's vampire.

And I readily admit I could be wrong. My record of accurately predicting where The Giant goes next is about as low as Elan's Wisdom, (which is a major factor in my enjoyment of his work.)

[8BitNinja]

Normal ice and snow are both crystalline. Source

Snow isn't a crystal, it's a flake.

[Keltest]

Multiple failed saves versus low DC can be made and multiple successes versus high DC can be made. I've done the first and seen the second. But with multiple attempts, as seemed to be what Hilgya was saying she did, she should eventually have succeed even against a save Durkon can only fail on a 1. The odds don't get better with each roll, but over time each number on the die should turn up.

So it is very possible that Durkon just made the save more than once, but each attempt to scry reduced his overall chance to succeed. Which brings me back to the idea that the attempts auto-failed because Durkon was dead.

The final success only occurred when Hilgya actually scryed for Durkon's vampire.

And I readily admit I could be wrong. My record of accurately predicting where The Giant goes next is about as low as Elan's Wisdom, (which is a major factor in my enjoyment of his work.)

Durkon has only been dead a couple days. For his death to prevent scrying, she would only have just been trying to find him within the past week, which we know is not the case.

[Jay R]

Maybe Elan will be there when Roy really needs wise counsel.

Oh, good. He can help Roy try to find some.

[brian 333]

Durkon has only been dead a couple days. For his death to prevent scrying, she would only have just been trying to find him within the past week, which we know is not the case.

And yet her Divinition spell was cast in time to meet the OotS in dwarftown as opposed to, say, Tinkertown. It seems logical to me that that occurred very recently, which means the scrying sttempts could have been recent as well.

Admittedly I could be wrong, and probably am, but I haven't read another speculation that accounts for what we know.