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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default The Spiritualist! (PEACH)(so much PEACH)

    Hey guys! It's been a long time, long enough that it's probably mostly new faces in here...

    Anyway, I've got a homebrew that I'd like you guys to look at. It's called the Spiritualist. It's meant to be a class with the functionality of a full caster, but without spells (technically). Instead, the spiritualist uses his/her relationship with spiritkind to achieve spell-like effects. I've split the class into two Societies (subclasses) which operate very very differently. Mediums commune with the spirits of the dead, while Animists influence the spirits of all things living.

    All the class features are completed. I need more Favors (you'll see). I'm reasonably sure I've got the balance right, but extra eyes are helpful.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tQj...ew?usp=sharing

    EDIT: Here's the link to the updated version:
    http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkVLUy2pl
    Last edited by SilverStud; 2018-01-15 at 03:23 AM.

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    Default Re: The Spiritualist! (PEACH)(so much PEACH)

    The link works. I'll be the first to review this, then, it seems.

    I'll talk about Favors after the base features, since they're all at the end.

    Hit Points
    Hit points at higher levels says "notary levels after 1st".

    Skills
    Skills should be in alphabetical order. Also, why three skills instead of two?

    Rapport
    Looks fine.

    Ritual of Accord
    Warlock gets a similar thing, except at 20th level. Maybe delay this a bit?

    Spiritual Society
    So, you get favors based on societies as soon as 1st level, pick your society at 2nd level, and your first feature is at 3rd level? This is just a jumbled mess, here. I'd suggest they pick the society at 1st level, even if they don't get a feature from it then, it's needed for the favors.

    Additional Favors
    You don't really need this to be a feature. It can just say nothing on the table and just give nothing but the favor increase at those levels.

    Strong Soul
    That's quite a lot of creature types (even if one is pretty specific). Maybe cut one or two? Elementals seem the least "supernatural", out of all of them listed.

    Echoes In Time
    Flavor-wise? I love the idea of this ability. I feel like once it hits a decade, though, it's going a little too far back. Maybe just limit it to one year? Or maybe even something like "a maximum amount of years equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of one)"?

    Sixth Sense
    Probably fine, but again my comment about elementals still stands.

    Trancendence
    This feels a lot more like a capstone than the actual capstone, imo. Anyways, it shouldn't say "once per long rest", but rather at the end say something like "After using this feature, you must take a long rest before doing so, again."

    The tether should state specifically which kinds of weapons can break it. Is it all silvered weapons, or just the githyanki's silver greatsword?

    Pulse
    What kind of melee attack? Weapon? Spell? What kind of damage does it deal?

    Abrupt Reunion
    Reaction to what? Also, saving throw shouldn't be capitalized.

    Spiritual Societies
    You don't need to list "Society Feature:" before every feature, y'know.

    Animists

    Spirit of Cooperation
    Good feature. I like it.

    Effigy
    This should probably have a CR cap, as it can just destroy a fight. Most fights don't last longer than 5 rounds (the maximum you can reach without magic items), and since it's wismod/rest, you can easily do this in any fight. Maybe base it on 1/3 your spiritualist level?

    Replica
    I really like this feature. As far as I can tell, this isn't busted. Good feature.

    Aura of Vitality
    You should limit this to 1/long rest, since otherwise it can devalue hit dice, by just taking multiple short rests for more healing. Also, it's temporary hit points, not "temp HP".

    Paragon of Harmony
    What happens if the spell ends, such as if you attack? Does it instantly recharge? I'd personally make it either a 1-minute ritual, short/long rest, or an action to recharge.

    Mediums

    Familiar Form
    Good, good. I feel like the sidebar above it should just be part of the feature, though.

    Twinned Summon
    The only times this is busted is when the favors are already busted, not in regards to the feature itself.

    Targeted Summon
    Looks fine.

    Greater Summon
    The saving throw disadvantage thing? Bad idea, especially with Banshee's Wail. Duration and damage dice? Probably fine.

    Final Destination
    Pretty much just a ribbon. A ribbon I honestly enjoy, but not a very good capstone.

    Favors

    Animist
    I'll do these in the order they're here.

    Influence Identity
    Good favor.

    Spirit Protector
    Amazingly good for only 1 rapport and being tier 1. Should cost more, and maybe even make it tier 2 or 3.

    Breath of Life
    This could honestly be tier 0 and cost 0 rapport. It's not super duper amazing.

    Amplify/Diminish
    Good favor.

    Hindrance
    What's the limit on how far away this difficult terrain can be? Can it be literally anywhere you can see? I'd personally make it a limit of 60 feet away.

    Invigorate
    No. This favor is insanely overpowered. Monks and warlocks with this kind of spiritualist in their party become gods among men with how little their resources mean to them.

    Depressing Aura
    Free actions aren't a thing in 5e, it's just (no action required). This feature is way too strong. If you just make it affect one creature, it's more fine, but disadvantage on all saves is too much. Alternatively, you could just do what the slow spell does, and that'd make it fine.

    Exciting Aura
    Attacks and saves with advantage is insanely huge, even if it were just one creature. Maybe make it more close to the haste spell.

    Medium Favors
    I actually won't comment on any of these except one, because they're all actually pretty fine (though Animist is a far superior subclass due to having actual combat options aside from 2 favors from medium).

    Banshee's Wail
    AoE paralyze is already asking for too much for a PC. But then, making it so a failed save also deals considerable psychic damage? This thing is way too good. Maybe make it so only one creature can be paralyzed if they fail the saving throw, and tie the psychic damage into the regular "damage if fail half if success" thing.

    Overall... I like the flavor of this class quite a bit, but there are considerable balancing issues. Animist is a much better subclass than Medium, significantly so, and Banshee's Wail is too good.
    Last edited by Blackbando; 2018-01-14 at 03:36 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Spiritualist! (PEACH)(so much PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    The link works. I'll be the first to review this, then, it seems.

    I'll talk about Favors after the base features, since they're all at the end.

    Hit Points
    Hit points at higher levels says "notary levels after 1st".

    Skills
    Skills should be in alphabetical order. Also, why three skills instead of two?

    Rapport
    Looks fine.

    Ritual of Accord
    Warlock gets a similar thing, except at 20th level. Maybe delay this a bit?
    Fixed the notary levels thing. That was weird.

    I'm not too bothered about putting things in any special order.

    So instead of thinking of Rapport like warlock slots, think of it like monk ki. The monk has a comparable ki pool, and gets them back every short rest. The Ritual of Accord gives the same rate of recovery as the monk, with a little more flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Spiritual Society
    So, you get favors based on societies as soon as 1st level, pick your society at 2nd level, and your first feature is at 3rd level? This is just a jumbled mess, here. I'd suggest they pick the society at 1st level, even if they don't get a feature from it then, it's needed for the favors.

    Additional Favors
    You don't really need this to be a feature. It can just say nothing on the table and just give nothing but the favor increase at those levels.
    Yeah, I see your point. The second-level thing was a holdover from my original design for the class (notice it says Spiritualist v2.0). A lot of things are, actually.

    Ultimately, whether I say "additional favors" in the table is a stylistic choice. I think it is better than an "empty level" like wizards have, because you can clearly see what you're getting at each level. (wizards have empty levels because they get new slot levels, but it isn't immediately obvious)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Strong Soul
    That's quite a lot of creature types (even if one is pretty specific). Maybe cut one or two? Elementals seem the least "supernatural", out of all of them listed.

    Echoes In Time
    Flavor-wise? I love the idea of this ability. I feel like once it hits a decade, though, it's going a little too far back. Maybe just limit it to one year? Or maybe even something like "a maximum amount of years equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of one)"?

    Sixth Sense
    Probably fine, but again my comment about elementals still stands.
    Well, maybe I could drop elementals off the list. Their saves are physical in nature (STR to not trip, DEX to not be on fire), and that doesn't really fit with "Strong Soul."

    I based Echoes In Time off of Legend Lore, which has no time limit at all. Legend Lore is available at the same level, but as but-one-of-many options for the aspiring wizard. Since that's all the spiritualist gets at this level, I had to make it slightly better, so I removed the "it has to be of legendary significance" caveat. I don't think the time limit is an issue. I made both the cost in Rapport and time spent quite prohibitive for those longer histories. In fact, the 10,000 years one can only be performed by 20th level spiritualists (because it costs 24 rapport).

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Trancendence
    This feels a lot more like a capstone than the actual capstone, imo. Anyways, it shouldn't say "once per long rest", but rather at the end say something like "After using this feature, you must take a long rest before doing so, again."

    The tether should state specifically which kinds of weapons can break it. Is it all silvered weapons, or just the githyanki's silver greatsword?
    I give out this feature at 17th level because wizards (etc) get Astral Projection at 17th level. Also, the reason the capstone is at 20th level is because it allows for unlimited use of the exciting/depressing auras, along with a LOT of other favors.

    Also, if you've read through the DMG you'll notice that the githyanki's silver greatsword is the ONLY weapon specifically capable of cutting an astral tether. They leave the door open for other, homebrewed, weapons by using language similar to mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Pulse
    What kind of melee attack? Weapon? Spell? What kind of damage does it deal?

    Abrupt Reunion
    Reaction to what? Also, saving throw shouldn't be capitalized.

    Spiritual Societies
    You don't need to list "Society Feature:" before every feature, y'know.
    Melee spell attack, force damage (fixed)

    Clarified about the reaction.

    Yeah I got rid of the "society feature" things. They were a holdover from an old design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Animists

    Spirit of Cooperation
    Good feature. I like it.

    Effigy
    This should probably have a CR cap, as it can just destroy a fight. Most fights don't last longer than 5 rounds (the maximum you can reach without magic items), and since it's wismod/rest, you can easily do this in any fight. Maybe base it on 1/3 your spiritualist level?

    Replica
    I really like this feature. As far as I can tell, this isn't busted. Good feature.

    Aura of Vitality
    You should limit this to 1/long rest, since otherwise it can devalue hit dice, by just taking multiple short rests for more healing. Also, it's temporary hit points, not "temp HP".

    Paragon of Harmony
    What happens if the spell ends, such as if you attack? Does it instantly recharge? I'd personally make it either a 1-minute ritual, short/long rest, or an action to recharge.
    To make Effigy more in line with Shape Change, I made the CR cap equal to your spiritualist level. No ancient dragons!

    You're right about Aura of Vitality. I applied your suggested limit.

    No no no no no no no there is no spell. No spell was cast, so the spell cannot end. You are simply under the effects described in Sanctuary. Permanently. Forever. I clarified that in the updated text, and also added the caveat that you only get the benefits while you have Rapport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Mediums

    Familiar Form
    Good, good. I feel like the sidebar above it should just be part of the feature, though.

    Twinned Summon
    The only times this is busted is when the favors are already busted, not in regards to the feature itself.

    Targeted Summon
    Looks fine.

    Greater Summon
    The saving throw disadvantage thing? Bad idea, especially with Banshee's Wail. Duration and damage dice? Probably fine.

    Final Destination
    Pretty much just a ribbon. A ribbon I honestly enjoy, but not a very good capstone.
    A little further down the page you'll tell me that Animist is far superior to Medium, but you want me to nerf one of their best features?

    Dude, maybe it's just something about perspective, but to my eyes Final Destination is one of the best capstones. Late game (when you get the capstone), there's really only one thing keeping death meaningful: the insane cost of good resurrection spells. This completely negates that, which I think is on par with permanent sanctuary. I would like to hear more on this topic though, if you have any ideas to make it better in your view?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Favors

    Animist
    I'll do these in the order they're here.

    Influence Identity
    Good favor.

    Spirit Protector
    Amazingly good for only 1 rapport and being tier 1. Should cost more, and maybe even make it tier 2 or 3.

    Breath of Life
    This could honestly be tier 0 and cost 0 rapport. It's not super duper amazing.

    Amplify/Diminish
    Good favor.

    Hindrance
    What's the limit on how far away this difficult terrain can be? Can it be literally anywhere you can see? I'd personally make it a limit of 60 feet away.

    Invigorate
    No. This favor is insanely overpowered. Monks and warlocks with this kind of spiritualist in their party become gods among men with how little their resources mean to them.
    So I mostly took your advice here. I nerfed Spirit Protector to "until the beginning of your next turn." I made Breath of Life zero tier. I put a distance on Hindrance.

    With Invigorate, my intention was the use of Hit Dice. I changed it so that you only gain the Hit-Die-spending benefit of a short rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Depressing Aura
    Free actions aren't a thing in 5e, it's just (no action required). This feature is way too strong. If you just make it affect one creature, it's more fine, but disadvantage on all saves is too much. Alternatively, you could just do what the slow spell does, and that'd make it fine.

    Exciting Aura
    Attacks and saves with advantage is insanely huge, even if it were just one creature. Maybe make it more close to the haste spell.

    Medium Favors
    I actually won't comment on any of these except one, because they're all actually pretty fine (though Animist is a far superior subclass due to having actual combat options aside from 2 favors from medium).

    Banshee's Wail
    AoE paralyze is already asking for too much for a PC. But then, making it so a failed save also deals considerable psychic damage? This thing is way too good. Maybe make it so only one creature can be paralyzed if they fail the saving throw, and tie the psychic damage into the regular "damage if fail half if success" thing.

    Overall... I like the flavor of this class quite a bit, but there are considerable balancing issues. Animist is a much better subclass than Medium, significantly so, and Banshee's Wail is too good.
    I'm pretty attached to Exciting/Depressing Aura. My original draft didn't have the "spend extra to exclude creatures" bit, but I think that is what unbalanced it. So, I've removed that. Now, with either aura, it affects your allies and your enemies equally. Use at your own risk!

    Some questions for you, good sir! Do you think reducing the AoE on Wail to 5 feet would be enough?

    How do you think, hopefully in somewhat specific terms, I can raise Medium to the level of Animist?

    Lastly, I'd like to have opinions from as many people as possible. Please don't feel intimidated by Blackbando's very thorough response (I like thorough, but all critique is welcome!).

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: The Spiritualist! (PEACH)(so much PEACH)

    Haha, yeah, I got a bit thorough. Reviewing classes is really relaxing as a time-killer, but it's easy to just point out a few things I missed. Anyways, for anything I don't respond to this time, that just means I agree with what you've stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    I based Echoes In Time off of Legend Lore, which has no time limit at all. Legend Lore is available at the same level, but as but-one-of-many options for the aspiring wizard. Since that's all the spiritualist gets at this level, I had to make it slightly better, so I removed the "it has to be of legendary significance" caveat. I don't think the time limit is an issue. I made both the cost in Rapport and time spent quite prohibitive for those longer histories. In fact, the 10,000 years one can only be performed by 20th level spiritualists (because it costs 24 rapport).
    Ah, I see. Yeah, I've never had a player use legend lore yet (even though we've had an entire campaign from 1st-to-20th level or two), so I'm not very well versed in how it is. Looks fine, then!


    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    A little further down the page you'll tell me that Animist is far superior to Medium, but you want me to nerf one of their best features?
    The design philosophy of "make the entire subclass weak just so it can get one thing that's broken" isn't really a good one, however with your proposed fix of Banshee's Wail earlier, I think this is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    Dude, maybe it's just something about perspective, but to my eyes Final Destination is one of the best capstones. Late game (when you get the capstone), there's really only one thing keeping death meaningful: the insane cost of good resurrection spells. This completely negates that, which I think is on par with permanent sanctuary. I would like to hear more on this topic though, if you have any ideas to make it better in your view?
    See, that's the thing; in most campaigns, a late game party actually has a LOT of money. Resurrection is only expensive if you have to do it a lot. Zealot Barbarian gets free resurrection at 3rd level, to compare, and, while some people may debate about the balance, most people are content with calling that feature a ribbon in most campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    I'm pretty attached to Exciting/Depressing Aura. My original draft didn't have the "spend extra to exclude creatures" bit, but I think that is what unbalanced it. So, I've removed that. Now, with either aura, it affects your allies and your enemies equally. Use at your own risk!
    EDIT: I had forgot to respond to this point. I like this, now, as it encourages a potentially more risky play. There are probably some combos it's pretty strong with (bardic inspiration), but I think that it's balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    Some questions for you, good sir! Do you think reducing the AoE on Wail to 5 feet would be enough?
    Firstly, I'd like to thank you for your courtesy of referring to me as "good sir". Not many people are willing to be polite, so, thank you. Secondly, I believe that should make it fine, yes. It even makes the Medium's disadvantage on saves balanced, too, I'd say.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    How do you think, hopefully in somewhat specific terms, I can raise Medium to the level of Animist?
    I believe that what Medium really needs are some more favors. At the moment, I believe Banshee's Wail is the only damaging favor it has, so for the majority of a campaign, it has no real sources of damage, and the utility it brings isn't even close to that of a spellcaster, so it's not compensating either. Perhaps take a look at some necromancy spells, or undead attacks (hellfire orb from death knight could be interesting if toned down a bit, but I'm unsure if the "hellfire" portion really suits the medium feel you're going for).

    By the way, unrelated to Medium, here, but I believe that you should give a tier 0 favor that's along the lines of a damaging cantrip, because otherwise the class doesn't have much of a way to consistently help in fights, if it runs out of resources.
    Last edited by Blackbando; 2018-01-15 at 01:25 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Spiritualist! (PEACH)(so much PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    I believe that what Medium really needs are some more favors. At the moment, I believe Banshee's Wail is the only damaging favor it has, so for the majority of a campaign, it has no real sources of damage, and the utility it brings isn't even close to that of a spellcaster, so it's not compensating either. Perhaps take a look at some necromancy spells, or undead attacks (hellfire orb from death knight could be interesting if toned down a bit, but I'm unsure if the "hellfire" portion really suits the medium feel you're going for).

    By the way, unrelated to Medium, here, but I believe that you should give a tier 0 favor that's along the lines of a damaging cantrip, because otherwise the class doesn't have much of a way to consistently help in fights, if it runs out of resources.
    You've got a good point here. Right now the Favor list is INCREDIBLY short. I intend for each tier to have between 2 and 5 Favors, with both lists being equal in length.

    As for how the Favors are flavored, well....

    My thinking is that Animists influence things, while Mediums do things. Amplify/Diminish, Exciting/Depressing Aura, Hindrance... They all influence outcomes. I want the Animist to be mostly a de/buffer.

    You're right that hellfire isn't quite the right flavor. I am planning on having some not-the-evil-kind-of-necromancy necromantic stuff. Any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    The design philosophy of "make the entire subclass weak just so it can get one thing that's broken" isn't really a good one, however with your proposed fix of Banshee's Wail earlier, I think this is fine.
    I... you got me there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    See, that's the thing; in most campaigns, a late game party actually has a LOT of money. Resurrection is only expensive if you have to do it a lot. Zealot Barbarian gets free resurrection at 3rd level, to compare, and, while some people may debate about the balance, most people are content with calling that feature a ribbon in most campaign.
    That is a very important point. Maybe if we add something... else... to it? Maybe something like Hurl Through Hell, or... or maybe could link it up with Transcendence?

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    Default Re: The Spiritualist! (PEACH)(so much PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    You're right that hellfire isn't quite the right flavor. I am planning on having some not-the-evil-kind-of-necromancy necromantic stuff. Any ideas?
    It could be interesting to give it something along the lines of temporarily manipulating a corpse (like animate objects) to do an attack. Not a full-on zombie minion, but more along the lines of either a single attack, perhaps?


    Quote Originally Posted by SilverStud View Post
    or maybe could link it up with Transcendence?
    Oooh, now you're thinking. Maybe buff up the Pulse damage, and also possibly prevent weapons from severing the tether?

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