What can I sunder?

[Benejeseret]

I am afb (my DM owns them) and so I am wondering what options I have for sundering.

Obviously weapons and shields and the rules for them are clear.

1) Armour my DM said could not be sundered....is this correct?

2) What about holy symbols, wands, spellbooks, helms, boots, amulets, rings?

3) If any of the above can be, which ones and are their pre-set rules about hardness and Hp of these items?

4) Any other neat or creative uses for sunder out there?

[Kaelaroth]

You can sunder weapons, as you've said.

I didn't think you could do anything else, but my brother claims that you can actually sunder anything. Not so sure about that myself.... although it may very well work. His brain is more DnD compatible than mine is.

[Attilargh]

I am afb (my DM owns them) and so I am wondering what options I have for sundering.

Besides weapons and shields, you can also sunder "carried or worn objects". Including belts, buttons and clasps.

[Indon]

Basically, any equipment slot that isn't the actual armor, because they're all 'worn' and only armor gets a specific exemption.

Gloves, belts, helmets, boots, you name it. It will have no impact on the AC of the character you are attacking, though, so unless they're magical sundering them will have no effect.

[Citizen Joe]

I am afb (my DM owns them) and so I am wondering what options I have for sundering.

Obviously weapons and shields and the rules for them are clear.

You can sunder wielded weapons and shields

1) Armour my DM said could not be sundered....is this correct?

You cannot sunder armor that is worn, but if its on the ground or something, then you can.

2) What about holy symbols, wands, spellbooks, helms, boots, amulets, rings?

You do have to SEE the item to attack it, but if it is visible then yes to all that. Many of those items are either stored during a fight or concealed under armor of gloves or clothes.

3) If any of the above can be, which ones and are their pre-set rules about hardness and Hp of these items?

Here's a handy set of tables

4) Any other neat or creative uses for sunder out there?

Some creatures specifically allow you to sunder against them. In particular there is the hydra

[Jayabalard]

1) Armour my DM said could not be sundered....is this correct?

Well, if that's what the DM says, then they are correct.

[Anxe]

My favorite use for Sunder is to throw a player into a bag of holding and then rip it. Gone forever!

[Curmudgeon]

You do have to SEE the item to attack it, but if it is visible then yes to all that. Many of those items are either stored during a fight or concealed under armor of gloves or clothes.

Excellent point, Citizen Joe. But I'd like to add that just because an item isn't covered doesn't mean the PC sees it.

Spot (Wis)

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

Does the PC Spot the enemy's holy symbol "in a reactive manner"? Probably not, unless they're a Cleric or Paladin of an opposed deity and would be expected to react to this image. So the PC has to explicitly use a move action to Spot anything that isn't big or otherwise obvious. The weapon being used against them is obvious, but the unused dagger on the enemy's belt isn't.

Difficulty: Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)

A fine object (holy symbol size) is +20 harder to Spot than a large one. Also remember that combat is distracting:

Spotter distracted: -5 penalty

So the PC would need to use a move action, and make the Spot DC required for the item size, before they even know there's something to try to sunder. Or just make the Spot DC for something they would be expected to react to.

Yes, you can sunder an enemy's magic boots. But you don't get to automatically recognize that the enemy has footwear of any kind, much less identify them as Boots of Striding and Springing, when the booted enemy is busy trying to stick a sword into you.

[Iku Rex]

Curmudgeon, you don't need spot checks to see items (or creatures) that aren't hidden. A spell component pouch in a mage's belt or the holy symbol around an enemy cleric's neck is easily seen with no roll.

Both great sunder targets BTW, to answer the OPs question.

[Pironious]

Curmudgeon, you don't need spot checks to see items (or creatures) that aren't hidden. A spell component pouch in a mage's belt or the holy symbol around an enemy cleric's neck is easily seen with no roll.

Both great sunder targets BTW, to answer the OPs question.

Actually, I like where his head is. A character might see them, but he doesn't truly notice them because he's rather busy at the time.

Also, a dagger for a medium person is tiny, not fine.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, you don't need spot checks to see items (or creatures) that aren't hidden.

But the basic skill use rules say something different:

Difficulty: Very easy (0): Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)

If you need to make a Spot check to see something large in plain sight then Spot isn't just for hidden things.

D&D is about fantasy heroes, not fantastic automated data accumulators.

[ZeroNumerous]

Curmudgeon: Spotting something is a reaction. It's a free action. Further, when something is presented like a holy symbol(as it needs to be for a cleric to cast a spell) then it would be out in the open and easy to spot.

Further: A DC 0 spot is automatic success.

[Fax Celestis]

Further: A DC 0 spot is automatic success.

Unless on a natural 1. But any person with any brains is going to say, "I take 10."

[kamikasei]

Unless on a natural 1. But any person with any brains is going to say, "I take 10."

Not on a skill check. Rolling a one lets you pass a DC of one or less.

[Fax Celestis]

Not on a skill check. Rolling a one lets you pass a DC of one or less.

Ooooooooooooh yeeeeeeeeeeeeah. [/blond]

[Harold]

here is one very neat thing to sunder a hydra.

[greenknight]

You do have to SEE the item to attack it, but if it is visible then yes to all that. Many of those items are either stored during a fight or concealed under armor of gloves or clothes.

Another way to conceal an item is to wear a Hat of Disguise or something similar. If you change your appearance significantly, they might try to sunder something which isn't there, leaving your real items alone. This is also a good tactic against attempts to pickpocket your stuff. Even if someone eventually determines it's just an illusion, the glamer doesn't change, so they still have to work out where the real stuff is.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon: Spotting something is a reaction. It's a free action.

Not unless you have the Quick Reconnoiter feat (from Complete Adventurer):

Benefit: You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action.
Normal: Using Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action.

The DM determines what you're reacting to, of course, but if you're in melee combat you're reacting to their armor, shield, and weapon(s) wielded. Everything else is something that requires diverting your attention away from combat.

[Rachel Lorelei]

here is one very neat thing to sunder a hydra.

Actually, sundering a hydra's heads is a terrible stretegy compared to just taking the thing's body out with damage.

[Jasdoif]

Further: A DC 0 spot is automatic success.

Not necessarily. Someone with a Wisdom score of 7 or less, and no ranks in Spot, can fail a DC 0 Spot check.

[Citizen Joe]

Actually, with the right set of feats it isn't that bad. Let's say you advance up the Power Attack tree and pick up imp. sunder, cleave and great cleave. Now, great cleave requires a minimum +4 BAB so minimum level 4 fighter, just enough to get those 4 feats.

Now we'll sink 18 into strength for +4 bonus, being half-orc can jump that to 20 str (+5 bonus). Use a two handed weapon to maximize the bonus. Add in some buffs since the fighter knows he's about to fight a hydra... so bull's strength and enlarge person vials. Strength jumps by 6 for a total of +8 bonus to damage and attack. Add an aid potion for another +1 attack. We'll use a greatsword for 2d6 damage, upped to 3d6 damage from the enlarge person. WITHOUT using Power attack, you've got +13 attack and minimum damage of 15. Now step up and ready an action to sunder a head when attacked, as described in the Hydra description. Hydra heads average 11 hp to sunder. You get +4 to attack with sunder from the Imp. Sunder feat. In this case, your target is the head, which you have +17 attack, which is likely to hit on anything but a 1. Your damage is enough to drop the head with one swing. Since you dropped the head, you can take a cleave and attack another head. Since you have great cleave, you can take any number of cleaves. Thus, using this set up, as soon as the hydra attacks, you can lop off all of its heads (unless your roll a one on your attack).

[Fax Celestis]

"Cleaving off a head" is not the same as "dropping an opponent".

[Citizen Joe]

Well, it attacks like the heads are multiple creatures, it's only fair to treat them as such.

[Dervag]

Actually, sundering a hydra's heads is a terrible stretegy compared to just taking the thing's body out with damage.

On the other hand, it's more in line with the principles of dramatic narrative to serially behead a hydra rather than simply stabbing it in the chest several times.

Not necessarily. Someone with a Wisdom score of 7 or less, and no ranks in Spot, can fail a DC 0 Spot check.

"How did you miss that barn!? It's right there!

"Uh gee, boss, I just, y'know, didn't notice it..."

"Cleaving off a head" is not the same as "dropping an opponent".

It is, however, fatal to most creatures (hence the effectiveness of vorpal weapons).

Now, a hydra appears to be able to function with most of its heads missing. But can it function with all of its heads missing, I ask you?

[Rachel Lorelei]

Actually, with the right set of feats it isn't that bad. Let's say you advance up the Power Attack tree and pick up imp. sunder, cleave and great cleave. Now, great cleave requires a minimum +4 BAB so minimum level 4 fighter, just enough to get those 4 feats.

Yes, but then you're a Fighter who took Improved Sunder and Great Cleave. You see the problem there, I trust.

Now we'll sink 18 into strength for +4 bonus, being half-orc can jump that to 20 str (+5 bonus). Use a two handed weapon to maximize the bonus. Add in some buffs since the fighter knows he's about to fight a hydra... so bull's strength and enlarge person vials. Strength jumps by 6 for a total of +8 bonus to damage and attack. Add an aid potion for another +1 attack. We'll use a greatsword for 2d6 damage, upped to 3d6 damage from the enlarge person. WITHOUT using Power attack, you've got +13 attack and minimum damage of 15. Now step up and ready an action to sunder a head when attacked, as described in the Hydra description. Hydra heads average 11 hp to sunder. You get +4 to attack with sunder from the Imp. Sunder feat. In this case, your target is the head, which you have +17 attack, which is likely to hit on anything but a 1. Your damage is enough to drop the head with one swing. Since you dropped the head, you can take a cleave and attack another head. Since you have great cleave, you can take any number of cleaves. Thus, using this set up, as soon as the hydra attacks, you can lop off all of its heads (unless your roll a one on your attack).

Even assuming this kills it (and you have a 5% chance *per attack* of leaving at least one head), which isn't guaranteed, because the body is still at full HP and it can regrow its heads, that's if you're specifically designed to decapitate hydras and drank several potions.
Meanwhile, hitting the Hydra with enough damage to drop it in one or two rounds is perfectly possible for almost any decent party near a hydra's CR, since Hydras have low HP and AC... you don't have to have a character specifically designed to sever a number of hydra heads in a row and who isn't so great at other things.

On the other hand, it's more in line with the principles of dramatic narrative to serially behead a hydra rather than simply stabbing it in the chest several times.

Not in D&D, it's not. Stabbing things in the chest several times is as directly in line with the principles of dramatic narrative as applied to D&D as you get.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

First of all, a holy symbol is about the size of a fist and must be held when casting spells. Pretty easy to see and break.

Neat uses of sunder? There's a million.

1. Sunder the straps of a backpack, scroll belt, sheath, ect. This is a wizard-killer when used on the spell components pouch.

2. Sunder containers of water, acid, oil, and other liquids. Works very well if you have ranks in Balance, can float or fly, or have some way of just affecting the enemy.

3. For high STR characters, sundering those statues bases can turn them into 20d6 depth charges.

Plenty of creative uses for breaking things, and breaking spellcasters. Hooray for balancing the classes!

[Citizen Joe]

Even assuming this kills it (and you have a 5% chance *per attack* of leaving at least one head), which isn't guaranteed, because the body is still at full HP and it can regrow its heads, that's if you're specifically designed to decapitate hydras and drank several potions.

Actually, half the damage goes to the body.

Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points.

In any case, this is more of a mental exercise to find a reason to attack the heads rather than the body. While the buffing helps a lot, the same effect could be accomplished with a reach weapon and a little luck with the dice.

[Curmudgeon]

First of all, a holy symbol is about the size of a fist and must be held when casting spells. Pretty easy to see and break.

Not necessarily.

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

A holy symbol (AKA divine focus) must be touched, but the rules don't require it to be visible when touched. It's pretty easy for a divine caster to drop one in their spell component pouch, or up their sleeve, and only touch it under cover.

Casting a divine spell differs from turning undead:

You must present your holy symbol to turn undead.

The holy symbol must be out in the open to turn, not to cast.

[Reel On, Love]

touch it under cover.

...um. In the middle of a fight?!

[Kurald Galain]

It's pretty easy for a divine caster to drop one in their spell component pouch, or up their sleeve, and only touch it under cover.

Actually I wouldn't allow that in most cases, on account of it sounding silly and meta-ish. Except for, say, the god of trickery, most gods want you to be open and honest about your worship, not "put the holy symbol up your sleave because that'd make it harder to sunder you".