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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Welcome back to the reborn Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer Edition! Our first round with me as Chair had a few hiccups, but I hope we'll come out stronger for it.

    The form of this challenge is to take a particular D&D 3.5 base class (our "secret ingredient," or SI) and turn it into a functional E6 build, which must feature the SI as heavily as possible. (The only hard rule about this is that you must take at least one level in the SI, though judges are encouraged to look favorably on builds that take all or almost all of their levels in said SI.) Your final build submission should consist of your 6 regular levels and your first 10 epic bonus feats, though providing a snapshot at earlier points through the progression is heartily encouraged. Entries are to be PM'd to the Chair (that would be me!), and they will be posted anonymously; our volunteer judges will then grade each build on a 1-5 point scale in four categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Use of the Secret Ingredient. The builds with the highest three scores will be awarded medals, with the Honorable Mention award going to the non-medaling build that the Chair likes best (and/or that receives the most votes for HM in this thread). And then we all have cake!*

    *Note: You must provide your own cake.

    This is basically like the regular Iron Chef, and let's be brutally honest with ourselves here: this isn't a gargantuan community, and we basically all know what we're talking about at this point. Make the builds, send 'em in, post some scores, and have fun. If you've got questions, lemme know. Still, let's lay out a few rules!

    Cooking Time: Builds must be submitted via PM to the Chair by 11:59 PM GMT - 7 on Thursday, February 01, 2018 (6:59 AM GMT on Friday, February 02). The reveal shall be on the first evening the Chair has free following the cooking deadline, which is hoped to be the immediately subsequent evening. Judging is then expected (*cough*) to take no more than two weeks, so we'll put the judging deadline at two weeks after that. (You can do the math yourselves; I don't want to put two dates here and confuse people.)

    Kitchen: Almost all first-party 3.5 sources are legal. Dragon Magazine is disallowed, but Dragon Compendium (and its errata) is allowed. Online material from the WotC website is legal except for unupdated 3.0 psionics, which are banned. (If you use online material, please provide a link to the source.) Unearthed Arcana is legal for paragon classes, alternate races, and alternate class features, but not for fractional BAB/saves, item familiars, generic classes, prestigious character classes, gestalt, bloodlines, LA buyoff, or similar rule variants. We will borrow the existing standard for traits and flaws; they are legal, but traits warrant a –0.5 point penalty in Elegance, and flaws warrant a –1 point penalty in Elegance. Leadership is banned, as is any other feat or class feature that gives you something equivalent. (Familiars and improved familiars are fine, Wild Cohort is fine, psicrystals and elemental envoys are fine, animal companions are fine, but Thrallherd is not fine, for example.) Official errata is considered to be in play. Judges are not to penalize for the use of a large number of sources, nor are they to penalize for using an "obscure" source in one's build. Judges may, however, penalize for using a source without listing it, so please provide a list of sources! It is up to the discretion of each judge whether it is inelegant to "cross setting lines" (by using, for example, Forgotten Realms and Eberron material in the same build). Pathfinder is not allowed. Unupdated 3.0 material is allowed, and the general-purpose 3.0-to-3.5 skill updates (Wilderness Lore and Intuit Direction become Survival, Read Lips becomes Sense Motive, etc.) should be used when appropriate. If 3.0 material has been updated to 3.5, use the 3.5 version instead. If you have questions about anything in this paragraph (or hell, in this ruleset), feel free to ask the Chair.

    Character Creation: 32 point buy is assumed. For the purposes of this contest, Level Adjustment greater than +0 is banned. (This may be revised at a later point, but I don't feel that the E6 LA rules are conducive to fun in the context of this contest.) No more than two entries per chef per contest, please; if you submit two builds and somehow are so overcome with inspiration for a third that you can't help yourself, PM me and tell me which two you care about the most.

    Speculation: Please do not post any form of speculation before the reveal. Just don't do it, guys. It's not cool.

    E6: Here's how E6 works for the purposes of this contest. Build your character normally for the first six levels. After you reach level 6, you stop gaining levels and start gaining bonus feats every time you would gain 5,000 XP. Since we aren't actually tracking XP, you'll basically list your first ten epic bonus feats in the order that you take them, and we think of them as being kind of like levels. We will not use the LA-equals-reduced-point-buy rules, instead preferring to just ban races with LA (at least for now). We will not use the "capstone feats"; all feats that you take must be normal legal 3.5 feats, not homebrew E6 ones. You may not use the Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook, though if for some reason there are non-Epic feats from the ELH that you qualify for, you may take those. (I don't think there are any, but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong.) It is up to the discretion of each judge whether this is a "hard E6" (magic above 3rd level spells is simply beyond mortal reach, items that have a listed CL above 6th are just plain not available, etc.) or a "soft E6" (if you can somehow get the magic on your character, it's yours, regardless of level), though I honestly don't expect it to come up. Don't go crazy with making assumptions about items and we probably won't have to find out.

    Presentation: Here's a table for you to use. List your epic bonus feats (in clear order) after the table. If you find a clever way of formatting that that isn't annoying and that doesn't break anything, have fun; if it's portable, I may steal it for the next round. When sending your build or any disputes to the Chair, clearly include your build's name in the subject of the PM, and please present your build exactly as you want the Chair to copy and paste it into the thread.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    Code for the table:
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr][/table]


    Contest houserules: Nearly the same as the main contest's rules here: all creatures are proficient with natural weapons they have or may acquire, bonus feats that are explicitly granted without meeting prereqs are usable even without those prereqs, and feats that affect which skills are class skills for you and/or how you spend your skill points (Able Learner, Martial Study, Truename Training, Apprentice, etc.) apply immediately at the level at which you take them (even though you normally spend skill points before taking a feat).

    Judging guidelines: As with the main contest, we will follow the "One Mistake, One Penalty" guideline. I'm going to directly copy and paste this from the main thread, and hopefully the original author won't mind too much:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

    Non-exhaustive list of examples:

    Skills
    Allowed:
    • Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
    • Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
    • Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs


    Not allowed:
    • Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation

    Prereqs
    Allowed:
    • Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
    • Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
    • Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
    • (Trial, may be disallowed later)Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)


    Not Allowed:
    • "Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
    • Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes

    Other general things that are no longer allowed:
    • Penalising because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
    • Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalise if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.


    Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.


    Other bits and bobs: If there's something major and relevant I haven't mentioned, assume that the way I handle it will probably be the same as the main contest unless stated otherwise or unless doing so would be an obviously absurd result. If you've got questions, I'll give you answers.

    This round's secret ingredient: The NINJA, from Complete Adventurer! Allez Optimizer!

    Spoiler: Contest History
    Show


    The Builds:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Entry Alignment/Race Stub Judge: Randuir Judge: jdizzlean Total Chef
    Shadow (link) CN Whisper Gnome Ninja 5/Warlock 1 14 17.25 31.25 Long_shanks
    Aeilash (link) NG Dragonborn Grey Elf Scout 1/Ninja 4/Avenger 1 14.5 14.75 29.25 RaiKirah
    Ondrej (link) NE Azurin Ninja 5/Incarnate 1 15 13.5 28.5 Lapak
    Flustern Undsack (link) NE Whisper Gnome Ninja 4/Incarnate 2 13 15 28 PrismCat21
    Shinda Suzume (link) NE Hengeyokai Sparrow Ninja 2/HnR Fighter 2/Totemist 2 14 13 27 Darrin
    Belle Bubbles Bloom (link) LN Strongheart Halfling Rogue 1/Monk 2/Ninja 3 13 13.5 26.5 DEMON
    Batninja (link) ?? Anthropomorphic Bat Ninja 6 13.5 12 25.5 3WhiteFox3
    Helter Kari (link) LE Human Ghost Ninja 3/Binder 1/Eidolon 2 13.5 11.5 25 daremetoidareyo
    Talon (link) ?? Anthropomorphic Screech Owl Ninja 6 14.5 9 23.5 PrismCat21
    Tellian d'Thurrani (link) CN Wood Elf Barbarian 1/Ninja 4/Shadow Hunter 1 12 11.5 23.5 Falontani
    Khal Krotu (link) LG Illumian Ninja 3/Monk 1/HnR SA Fighter/Avenger 1 12.5 9.5 22 daremetoidareyo
    Last edited by Zaq; 2018-02-15 at 09:08 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Oh, and for my evil piece here to rub in why this round's ingredient is SI-worthy, I just want to mention that the base rules expect an adventurer to face about 4 or more encounters per day, and unless you've got some real cheese under the hood, those encounters are likely to last at least 3-5 rounds each. And those are minimums; the reality likely skews higher. Just gonna throw that out there.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DEMON's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I actually have an idea that might work. Too bad I will most likely fail to bring it to fruition...
    Fantabulous Duskblade avatar by linklele, for which I am eternally grateful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

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    HisHighestMinio's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I've been interested in IC for a while, but 20th level character builds are intimidating. I think I could submit an E6 build sometime. If not for this round then later.

    I have little experience optimizing, but I can't hope to improve without practice! Just don't expect quality from me.
    My username should have been HisHighestMinion, with an N.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Might try playing around with this while I wait for the main competition. Ninja is sort of in an annoying place of simultaneously feeling like I'm spending too many levels on it in an E6 build, and feeling like I'm not spending enough, as the actual interesting features don't show up until a few levels past 6.

    Iron Chef Medals
    Spoiler
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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Inevitability's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Definitely got a build concept for this.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

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    Jormengand's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I have an idea for this too, but it's exceptionally silly and only really works because it's in E6. Just as well it is, I suppose.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I've been on those forums for a couple of years now and I've always wanted to participate in a competition, but IC or VC seem to demand an enormous investement in time. E6 seems simpler, so I read the previous contests and told myself I would try to participate with the next ingredient, but god damn is the ninja bad. I distinctly remember playing one in a one-shot and having a blast, but I'm that was another time, Before Optimization (or BO) sneaked into my life.
    But hey, I'll dive in the books and see if an inspiration strikes.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Question to the chair (or any contestant with more experience). Are multiclass penalties in effect or if we incur them they could just incur a penalty (in elegance I assume) depending on the judge?

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    It’s technically up to each judge.

    I’m personally not a fan of acknowledging multiclass penalties and I tend to ignore them, but I won’t make an official ruling either way unless there’s a really strong swell of support here one way or the other.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

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    Jormengand's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    If I end up judging, I will, like every DM I have ever played with and ever been, ignore multiclass penalties, for what it's worth.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Inspiration has struck. Get ready for insufficient fluff and a buttload of rules as written.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Might be time to make my own "Debut"
    These challenges have always piqued my interest and now that I have a voice I might as well try it out

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    Inevitability's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I have an idea for this too, but it's exceptionally silly and only really works because it's in E6. Just as well it is, I suppose.
    I say go for it: my own build last round wouldn't work outside of E6 either, and ended up doing pretty well.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

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    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    assuming the community doesn't want to roast me over an open fire, i'll stay on to judge this comp
    Spoiler: Medals & Current Characters
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    C'mon jdizzlean, I certainly wouldn't nice to have your motivation!

    I'm starting to wonder if I have a viable idea for this one.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I would like to throw my hat in the ring to compete, assuming I can get an entry finished on time. I've got some ideas, but not sure how good they are. This format (E6) is somewhat odd.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I have a vague idea: in the very unlikely event I find some time, I may put an entry in.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Anyone else struggling without bringing LA into this?

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Anyone else struggling without bringing LA into this?
    I'm struggling with race, especially regarding originality. I mean, there are only a couple of LA +0 races that really fit the ingredient. I've tried to make my build with other races but always come back to the same two.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I've come to the conclusion that I somehow hate Ninja even more in E6 than I do normally. I may judge if I have time but I find myself either not liking the build ideas I've come up with or needing too many non-Ninja levels to make them work.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2018-01-26 at 10:47 PM.

    Iron Chef Medals
    Spoiler
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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    how do we do equipment/fluff in E6? It's my first time posting to either of them and I've got the build finalized but am struggling with what levels to portray, how much money I have for equipment (WBL 6 or 16??)

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Is Savage Species allowed?
    I may have an idea.
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian
    Is Savage Species allowed?
    I may have an idea.
    Reread the first post explaining what is and is not allowed under 'kitchen'. Savage Species is a 3.0 book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani
    how do we do equipment/fluff in E6? It's my first time posting to either of them and I've got the build finalized but am struggling with what levels to portray, how much money I have for equipment (WBL 6 or 16??)
    You're assumed to have appropriate equipment for your level and build. Adding a section for suggestive equipment and how it would be beneficial to your build, somewhere in your entry will not hurt score. However, if your entry relies on specific equipment to make your entry work, that likely will be counted against you. Generally, I wouldn't worry about adding any equipment at all that the build does not specifically call for. (like Weapon Focus:weapon, or Kensei's signature weapon, or Ancestral Weapon, ect...)
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Hmm. Seems like my "no LA" rule is chafing a bit? I'm willing to discuss alternatives to it, at least for the next contest (might be a bit late to elegantly change the rule for this one). Let's open some dialogue here.

    Basically, I don't think the "LA = reduced point-buy" rules adequately address things, especially on the high end of the LA spectrum. My biggest fear is that people are going to end up primarily playing their race instead of their class. In the main contest, it's one thing to delay your progression by a whole level to get, for example, HiPS from the Dark template, but losing a few points of stats (that are often, though admittedly not always, refunded by the stat bumps of the race/template in question) is a much smaller cost, and I don't think it's actually a balanced choice.

    Leaving LA as LA is too big a cost when you've got a max of 6 HD to play with, but I don't think that paying PB points to get access to LA races/templates is something that we can prevent from overwhelming the SI, whatever it happens to be. (Yeah, yeah, overshadow it completely and risk tanking UoSI, but I think my greater point stands.)

    Yeah, there are a lot of LA-based game elements that aren't really overpowered, but we're all optimizers here, and I'm not too worried about someone making a hobgoblin or a blue or a sharakim. But stuff like the Dark template seems like a no-brainer for any SI that has Hide as a class skill (and several that don't)—your dump stats might get a little dumpier, but you get benefits that are otherwise very expensive in E6, with no slowdown of your main progression. Half-Fey turns 32 PB into 18 PB but offers some nontrivial stat bumps to make up most of the difference—oh, and wings with double your base movement speed and a pile of noticeable racial SLAs. You're not playing a half-fey Ninja, you're playing a Ninja who happens to be half-fey. I don't think half-fey is overpowered in a normal 20-level game (and in an actual at-the-table-with-friends game rather than a build competition, I'm in favor of allowing LA buyoff or otherwise straight up reducing the cost of LA), but I think that what you gain from it is worth more than 14 PB points when you're trying to put together a usable build with the terrible ingredients I intend to inflict on you. Pixie has 0 PB, but a pixie's actual stats are entirely reasonable stats (higher than you'd get with 32 PB in most cases, as long as you aren't STR-primary and can mitigate a lowish CON), and a pixie has ridiculously massive DR/SR for an E6 game, has perma-invisibility, has rock-solid flight, and has friggin' Polymorph (a 4th level spell—normally not possible to get at all in E6 without shenanigans), but with no loss in progression of the main build. I would play an E6 pixie Ninja over an E6 human Ninja any day of the week, since I'd still get to put my unique spin on it with extremely little cost, but pixie would arguably be doing more heavy lifting than Ninja. Are pixies a fairly extreme edge case? Yeah, they are, but the fact remains that they aren't a problem that can be solved with PB alone, and they probably aren't the only case that would cause issues.

    In the main contest, LA directly competes with the rest of your build. It reduces your skill point maximums, delays when you can enter the Secret Ingredient, and is basically a class. It's a cost that you pretty much pay out of the Secret Ingredient or out of your entry to it. (LA is arguably too much of a cost, which is why I'm in favor of buyoff or of reduced LA in an actual home game, but when the goal is to show off clever optimization skills, I want to err on the side of caution.) But that isn't the case with the E6 LA = -PB rules. The cost isn't paid out of the same account. It can't be (again, losing HD when you've only got a max of 6 is way, way too harsh), but I don't see a way to let the LA builds not overwhelm the non-LA builds. I'd love to make LA be an honest-to-god choice that some people will take and that some people won't take, without one side dominating the other by default. But I don't see a way to do that. PB cost is too small. HD cost is too high.

    I feel like a large subset of chefs are going to end up gravitating towards the same small subset of races and templates that offer oversized bang for the buck, since it doesn't compete with your ability to enter or use the SI. A half-fey Shadow Sun Ninja (for example) is going to have a harder time qualifying for the SI, will enter it later, and will have a noticeably stunted growth progression over the course of a 20-level build (again, arguably too much, but it makes being half-fey a choice with meaningful upsides and downsides), but a half-fey Ninja isn't paying the same kind of cost for their power bump. There isn't as much of the chef's touch in selecting base stats (there's some, but significantly less than most of the other components that make your build your build), so I don't feel like base stats alone can compensate for "hey, now you've got weird SLAs and movement modes and special qualities that offer more utility than the SI itself does." And again, it's not exactly gamebreaking to show up with a dromite or a shadowswyft (neither of whom should have LA, honestly), but I don't trust myself to spot-ban all of the troublesome stuff in the same way that I'd try to do if I were GMing a game rather than chairing a competition. Doing so would honestly likely feel arbitrary, anyway.

    I've said enough that I'm probably honestly coming off as defensive by this point, so I'll step back and let other folks weigh in. Basically, I don't see a way to actually make LA races balanced, so my solution is just to make you stick to LA 0 stuff. Now you've seen my thought process, so if you want to argue against it, I'm willing to listen. I'm almost certain to keep the LA ban in place at least for the current round just to be fair to those of you who've done most/all of the work on your builds already and don't want the playing field changed in the middle, but I'm willing to listen to counterarguments for the future.
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  26. - Top - End - #26
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I'm all for keeping LA races out of it completely.
    This is supposed to be a bit of a challenge. LA would largely make it easier and more predictable in getting the 'most powerful/best' builds. And as you said, overshadow what's supposed to be the important part of the build.
    Let the SI shine.
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  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    I think the LA problem is more of a consequence of the awfulness of the first 6 levels of the ninja more than anything else. Even with what I said earlier, I don't think I'm for the inclusion of LA. It gives a unique challenge to E6, to have to work with less possibilities; it's the reason why I might have an entry in one of those GITP contest for the first time... it is way less daunting than the 20 level entries. So, I would argue to keep LA out of it.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Hmm. Seems like my "no LA" rule is chafing a bit? I'm willing to discuss alternatives to it, at least for the next contest (might be a bit late to elegantly change the rule for this one). Let's open some dialogue here.
    Personally, I'm fine with the ban on LA adjusted races. While I don't think it's necessary in actual games (the ones I was involved in), where players are working together and don't (or shouldn't) try to one up each other, in this challenge, I'd say it has it's place.

    Everyone has an even playing field and should be working with the SI first and foremost. And there's still some 200 options for LA+0 & 1HD races out there to choose from.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Quote Originally Posted by PrismCat21 View Post
    Reread the first post explaining what is and is not allowed under 'kitchen'. Savage Species is a 3.0 book.



    You're assumed to have appropriate equipment for your level and build. Adding a section for suggestive equipment and how it would be beneficial to your build, somewhere in your entry will not hurt score. However, if your entry relies on specific equipment to make your entry work, that likely will be counted against you. Generally, I wouldn't worry about adding any equipment at all that the build does not specifically call for. (like Weapon Focus:weapon, or Kensei's signature weapon, or Ancestral Weapon, ect...)
    Ah yes, but it is an un-updated 3.0 book. So I suppose it's fair game. I know that the book has a bad reputation though so I figured I'd ask.
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  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round V)

    Quote Originally Posted by Long_shanks View Post
    I think the LA problem is more of a consequence of the awfulness of the first 6 levels of the ninja more than anything else.
    This is what I've been dealing with. I found my way around the snag

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