Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I'm at BS 2 / rogue 1 right now, I am really torn on what to do at my next level up. I know getting to BS 3 / rogue 2 for shadow blade and cunning action is my first real benchmark, but I'm not sure which is the more important to get first.

That's probably a safe way to get into tier 2 if you're more focused on damage. You won't hit any ASIs until level 6 or 7 on this path, but if you're more combat focused it's a good way to help the party.

[Klorox]

Nice guide, two things:

1) you suggest the synergy between booming blade and using a whip, but you need a feat to make booming blade work at more than a 5’ range.

2) could you please elaborate on multiclassing AT/bladesinger?

I’m currently playing one but I wasn’t aware that there was that much synergy. I just thought it was kinda fun and cool. 🤷*♂️

[Nhorianscum]

I understand that this is an 'Arcane Trickster's Guide" but can't you achieve this by going Swashbuckler X/ Lore Bard 6 and actually be Better at it?

Yea you lose out on Sneak Attack but you gain a better range of Spells and Skills?

Not trolling and very curious about Other Magical Thief builds.

To be fair if we're not locked into AL's PHB+1 Rav background AT (Orzhova for preferance) + Scagtrips is sorta the build-to-beat. (In AL ranged AT is our go to for Rav background abuse).

Swash with 6 lore levels really isn't cutting the mustard by comparison.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

Nice guide, two things:

1) you suggest the synergy between booming blade and using a whip, but you need a feat to make booming blade work at more than a 5’ range.

2) could you please elaborate on multiclassing AT/bladesinger?

I’m currently playing one but I wasn’t aware that there was that much synergy. I just thought it was kinda fun and cool. ��*♂️

To cast booming blade on a reach melee weapon, you need spell sniper. It doubles the distance of your attack spells. Booming blade has a listed range of 5ft. With spellsniper you've now got 10ft, the reach of a whip.

The problem is, you get good sneak attack damage + booming blade or green flame blade damage as per usual, but you've turned what would normally be a D8 damage die into a D4 just to keep 5 extra feet away from the enemy. With evasion, uncanny dodge, +3 to 5 AC from bladesong, another +5 from shield and +2 from haste why would you WANT to 5 feet away from the enemy? You can tank ancient dragons with that AC.

And with warcaster and bladesong you'll have advantage + INT on your concentration saves. And if you have resilient for con you're now proficient in con saves. You'll almost never drop concentration whenever you do get hit. If you get hit.

A bladesinger/arcane trickster can have 3 combat roles; AC/evasion tank, primary or secondary melee DPS, or blaster.

For AC/Evasion tank use the formula I listed above. You should have at least 29ac at this point.
For primary/secondary melee, use an upcasted shadowblade + sword coast cantrips. You'll have 7D8 + 6D6 on a single attack with a 5th level shadowblade/booming blade combo. Now imagine that with a crit.
For blaster, try greater invisibility with synaptic static or steel wind strike. Disadvantage on saves against synaptic static and you get advantage on your attacks with steel wind strike. Again, imagine the crits.

[Klorox]

I know I’m just scratching the surface of this class (I’m playing an eladrin arcane trickster at level 3), but it is just so much fun!

Thanks for the advice in this guide!

[bendking]

For AC/Evasion tank use the formula I listed above. You should have at least 29ac at this point.
For primary/secondary melee, use an upcasted shadowblade + sword coast cantrips. You'll have 7D8 + 6D6 on a single attack with a 5th level shadowblade/booming blade combo. Now imagine that with a crit.
For blaster, try greater invisibility with synaptic static or steel wind strike. Disadvantage on saves against synaptic static and you get advantage on your attacks with steel wind strike. Again, imagine the crits.

I have to say, with extra attack & Shadow Blade: 8d8 + 5d6 + 8 (66) is pretty damn good at level 15 (AT9/BS6 to pull off 5th level Shadow Blade) considering all of the utility you provide.
Of course, it doesn't hold a candle to what some optimized nova builds are capable of, but it's pretty damn good I would say.
Seems like AT/BS can be a pretty effective primary striker.

EDIT:
That said, you are giving up your concentration slot if you want to do consistent damage that is in the ballpark of a straight AT.
Here is a little chart I made comparing AT9/W2 to AT5/W6:

Spoiler: Damage comparison

Show

Damage (AT9/W2 VS AT5/W6):
Level 5:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 2d6 + 3 (23.5/32.5)
Level 8:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 3 (27/36)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 2d6 + 3 (28/37)
Level 11:
DIP - BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/48.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/50.5)
MC - BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 4 (28/41.5) EA: 2d8 + 3d6 + 8 (27.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 3d6 + 4 (32.5/46) EA: 6d8 + 3d6 + 8 (44.5)

Conclusions: if you want to go deeper into Wizard and be a better casting, you are going to be lagging behind in damage unless you use Shadow Blade.
However, if you're using Shadow Blade, your concentration slot is taken, thus you won't be able to cast your most powerful spells.
I would say this constitues a play-style of disabling first, and only then switching to Shadow Blade and striking harder.
It's also worth noting that at level 11, when you get extra attack, you can outperfrom the regular AT by quite a bit with Shadow Blade.

@Specter: a penny for your thoughts?

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I have to say, with extra attack & Shadow Blade: 8d8 + 5d6 + 8 (66) is pretty damn good at level 15 (AT9/BS6 to pull off 5th level Shadow Blade) considering all of the utility you provide.
Of course, it doesn't hold a candle to what some optimized nova builds are capable of, but it's pretty damn good I would say.
Seems like AT/BS can be a pretty effective primary striker.

EDIT:
That said, you are giving up your concentration slot if you want to do consistent damage that is in the ballpark of a straight AT.
Here is a little chart I made comparing AT9/W2 to AT5/W6:

Spoiler: Damage comparison

Show

Damage (AT9/W2 VS AT5/W6):
Level 5:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 2d6 + 3 (23.5/32.5)
Level 8:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 3 (27/36)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 2d6 + 3 (28/37)
Level 11:
DIP - BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/48.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/50.5)
MC - BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 4 (28/41.5) EA: 2d8 + 3d6 + 8 (27.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 3d6 + 4 (32.5/46) EA: 6d8 + 3d6 + 8 (44.5)

Conclusions: if you want to go deeper into Wizard and be a better casting, you are going to be lagging behind in damage unless you use Shadow Blade.
However, if you're using Shadow Blade, your concentration slot is taken, thus you won't be able to cast your most powerful spells.
I would say this constitues a play-style of disabling first, and only then switching to Shadow Blade and striking harder.
It's also worth noting that at level 11, when you get extra attack, you can outperfrom the regular AT by quite a bit with Shadow Blade.

@Specter: a penny for your thoughts?

Thread necromancy! Yay!

Using concentration as an AT/bladesinger on shadowblade isn't bad at all. If you have a sorcerer or wizard in the party who can haste you, or if you have a potion of speed then you'll dance around the battlefield and dominate all encounters. There are also some very good non-concentration spells you'll have access to that are huge boosts to you and your allies. Upcasting blindness/deafness on a group of enemies is HUGE because you're effectively giving yourself and allies advantage on all attacks against them, and the spell doesn't use concentration. Then there are other non-concentration spells like cone of cold, steel wind strike, synaptic static if you want to use them. One of my favored tactics is starting combat hidden, using synaptic static or blindness/deafness then using bladesong on turn 1, then turn 2 bonus action shadowblade at 5th level and move in for the kill on turn 2.

Also if you're running an AT/BS build getting hit by damage spells is not a bad thing; use absorb elements, upcast it to 4th+ level and add some extra D6s to your next melee attack. The last time I used my AT/BS in a game I was able to hit a crit after using absorb elements on a cone of cold at 6th level. 8D8 + 5 shadowblade + 6D8 booming blade + 12D6 sneak + 12D6 cold. It was an epic kill on an archmage.

And as for other optimized nova builds? For sure, a sorlock quickening eldritch blast after something has been hexed is pretty potent at 8D10+40 (assuming 5 CHA and g) + 8D6 is going to outdamage on average, but it is so boring. (Speaking as someone who has played a couple of warlocks.) It's so much less versatile than an AT/BS, as well. The point of the arcane trickster bladesinger isn't to be the party's novaburst in the same way that a sorlock, pallock, sorcadin, assassin/champion, zealot/palladin/fighter combos are. It's built to be very good at a lot of things, and is very good at helping party synergy.

[HiveStriker]

Hi!

First of all, thanks and congrats for this guide. By far the best I've seen in years: exhaustive enough for anyone to grasp how to play an Arcane Trickster, yet concise enough and greatly structured so it's not a pain to read.

Didn't have time to read in detail (especially the races and such), but a few comments.

On spells: I'd strongly recommend Comprehend Languages as a non-school suggestion, at least for AT that want to act as party-face, or those that rely heavily on espionnage (pair with Observant then).

On feats:
- For any regular melee AT that can reliably land Booming Blade, I'd recommend Mobile: paired with possibly occasional Longstrider, it makes you a real pain to deal with because you can safely retreat back so melee-geared enemy simply has no other choice than either fall back on ranged attack (not its forte) or move and take the additional damage.
- For Grappler Rogues: Grappler feat is a staple for those: it does not help on first turn's action economy where Grappling will take your action's Attack, but on enemies with high HP it makes you completely autonomous in applying Sneak Attack while you drag it away from enemies (and possibly allies). Of course, if you intend to tag-team with another melee that can reliably Shove before your Grapple, then the point is moot, but that's kinda rare imx. ^^
- For any AT: Ritual Caster: Wizard, provided DM allows you to write scrolls of spells you know (following DMG/Xanathar's rulles), helps expanding your utility and global number of "spell known" without having to actually multiclass into a Wizard.

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: Raise Thread.

[andyjayoth]

This has been a great help to me when making my Arcane Trickster. Thanks a lot.

I don't know if my old age is failing me, but I could have sworn there was a colour grading, but I'm not seeing it now.

[bendking]

Hi!


- For any regular melee AT that can reliably land Booming Blade, I'd recommend Mobile: paired with possibly occasional Longstrider, it makes you a real pain to deal with because you can safely retreat back so melee-geared enemy simply has no other choice than either fall back on ranged attack (not its forte) or move and take the additional damage.

Why would you need Mobile when you have Cunning Action?

[nickl_2000]

Why would you need Mobile when you have Cunning Action?

Opportunity gains. So instead of using a disengage for your bonus action you can:

-Bonus action hide for advantage
-Run 80 feet away to kite them from safety
-Two weapon fight to get the sneak attack in since you missed the first attack
-steal a potion of the wizards belt so he can't use it.

It just opens up more uses of your bonus action.

Now whether that is worth it or not is up to the player, but it certainly has it's uses.

[andyjayoth]

Opportunity gains. So instead of using a disengage for your bonus action you can:

-Bonus action hide for advantage
-Run 80 feet away to kite them from safety
-Two weapon fight to get the sneak attack in since you missed the first attack
-steal a potion of the wizards belt so he can't use it.

It just opens up more uses of your bonus action.

Agree.

I was thinking of taking Mobile during a latter ASI level.

There is something dissatisfying about using Cunning Action to disengage. As you say, lost opportunity to; Dash, Hide or use Mage Hand.

The extra 10ft certainly helps if your character is a Halfing.

[Klorox]

I’m thinking of dipping wizard on my AT. Which subclass works best?

I’m thinking abjuror, diviner, war wizard and bladesinger are good options.

[nickl_2000]

I’m thinking of dipping wizard on my AT. Which subclass works best?

I’m thinking abjuror, diviner, war wizard and bladesinger are good options.

They all have their place. Personally I would choose in this order

Bladesigner
War Wizard
Diviner
Abjuror

Abjuror is the lowest because your ward is only going to be at max 11 HP. The Bladesinger AC bonus and the War Wizard reaction is going to save more than that over a day. As for diviner, well that one just doesn't seem that fun to me, but that's more me than anything else. Lots of people love it.

[HiveStriker]

Why would you need Mobile when you have Cunning Action?

Opportunity gains. So instead of using a disengage for your bonus action you can:

-Bonus action hide for advantage
-Run 80 feet away to kite them from safety
-Two weapon fight to get the sneak attack in since you missed the first attack
-steal a potion of the wizards belt so he can't use it.

It just opens up more uses of your bonus action.

Now whether that is worth it or not is up to the player, but it certainly has it's uses.

Exactly that.

They all have their place. Personally I would choose in this order

Bladesigner
War Wizard
Diviner
Abjuror

Abjuror is the lowest because your ward is only going to be at max 11 HP. The Bladesinger AC bonus and the War Wizard reaction is going to save more than that over a day. As for diviner, well that one just doesn't seem that fun to me, but that's more me than anything else. Lots of people love it.

I'd put Evoker, Conjurer, Enchanter and Illusionist in good place here too, above every school you put except Bladesinger to be honest.

Conjurer can set up some nice "proof-less" thefts, by grabbing an object with bonus action Invisible Mage Hand (which, at least at my table, would make the object invisible as long as it's completely grasped "inside") while conjuring a similar one with your action. Again, dependant on DM but for me, at worst a decent Deception check would be required.

Illusionist can be absolutely marvelous, paired with Invisible Mage Hand, to perfect some illusions by actually moving objects "in sync" with the illusion. Plus it totally fits the mischievous thematic of Arcane Trickster. Plus some great spells are Illusion spells (like IIRC Mirror Image), so you can possibly get them earlier and easier if you'd like.

Enchanter makes thievery extremely easy since you can enchant with an action and target a Wisdom save, either as a fail-safe for Mage Hand Sleight of Hand or as a long enough distraction to run away with Dash as bonus action (or Hide).

Evoker is of kind limited use at low level, especially since you won't have much in terms of offensive spells, although some Earth Tremor is sometimes good (especially if your friends can be unaffected). But once you got Magical Ambush, it makes pushing Wizards up to 5 very worth it for spells like the classic Fireball. Sure, by that time, such spells become useless against high CR creatures, but against those you can learn more classic save or suck mental spells. Fireball still stays relevant to weaken groups. Admitedly though it's overall one of the less good choice unless you instead get Wizard up to 5 earlier and make Magical Ambush the long-run objective.

[Rhyuk]

1st post yay!

First of all thanks for the guide!! I started my first DnD campaign last Friday and I rolled an AT. This guide has been my bible. One thing that I'd like mention is the option of using Id Insinuation (Unearthed Arcana) instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. If you pick Toll the Dead as one of your cantrips I think Id Insinuation is a better choice as you could be doing up to 24 of necrotic/psychic dmg per turn to a "crazy" dude. Obviously you have to take in consideration your party's composition and how each spell benefits its members (falling prone laughing vs letting them run around like a maniac but taking dmg while they do so). Also, Id Insinuation doesn't trigger a save roll every time they are damaged.

What do you guys think?

[nickl_2000]

1st post yay!

First of all thanks for the guide!! I started my first DnD campaign last Friday and I rolled an AT. This guide has been my bible. One thing that I'd like mention is the option of using Id Insinuation (Unearthed Arcana) instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. If you pick Toll the Dead as one of your cantrips I think Id Insinuation is a better choice as you could be doing up to 24 of necrotic/psychic dmg per turn to a "crazy" dude. Obviously you have to take in consideration your party's composition and how each spell benefits its members (falling prone laughing vs letting them run around like a maniac but taking dmg while they do so). Also, Id Insinuation doesn't trigger a save roll every time they are damaged.

What do you guys think?

Id Insinuation is a far superior spell over tasha;s.

They both go against wisdom so that is even
Incapacitated is a much better condition to cause than prone and incapacitated (prone is disadvantage for ranged attacks).
Tasha's triggers for only int 4 and higher
Tasha's has a new save every time they take damage.
Id does damage.


If you have Id Insinuation as a choice, there is basically no reason to take tasha's (other than possible social reasons).

[Edgerunner]

May not be Optimal but...
Does Melee AT with the Mobile feat make you a Swashbuckler, minus the +CHR to initiative/free SA vs single target, if you add a LvL of Fighter for TWF? I like the idea of combining the two best Rogue sub-classes, arguably, into one build.

How does this stack up to AT with Booming Blade?

[Klorox]

May not be Optimal but...
Does Melee AT with the Mobile feat make you a Swashbuckler, minus the +CHR to initiative/free SA vs single target, if you add a LvL of Fighter for TWF? I like the idea of combining the two best Rogue sub-classes, arguably, into one build.

How does this stack up to AT with Booming Blade?

AT works great with booming blade, but the swashbuckler is even better since they’ll get sneak attacks and can skip away from enemies leaving them with the choice between a ranged attack.

TWF is absolutely not worth it if you’re going to use booming blade. Booming blade is just better.

[Segev]

Id Insinuation is a far superior spell over tasha;s.

They both go against wisdom so that is even
Incapacitated is a much better condition to cause than prone and incapacitated (prone is disadvantage for ranged attacks).
Tasha's triggers for only int 4 and higher
Tasha's has a new save every time they take damage.
Id does damage.


If you have Id Insinuation as a choice, there is basically no reason to take tasha's (other than possible social reasons).

Tasha's hideous laughter incapacitates and knocks a target prone. It prevents escapes, amongst other motion issues. Id insinuation doesn't knock a target prone, so it's free to move away, admittedly without being able to Dash. But it does do damage.

Against creatures immune to the Prone condition (or with Int 3 or lower), id insinuation is absolutely better.

One incidental perk of Tasha's hideous laughter that is also a potential downside: the target is explicitly laughing, which defintiely makes noise.


But, yes, I think, overall, id insinuation is the more broadly useful spell and thus is more powerful. Both are, I think, too strong for level 1. Compare hold person, which is level 2 and doesn't do that much more in terms of taking an enemy out of a fight, and is even less broadly applicable than Tasha's hideous laughter.

[Lyracian]

1ST-LEVEL SPELLS
At level 3, you get three of these, two from the enchantment or illusion schools and one from any school. Choose it wisely, because it can only be traded by Enchantment/Illusion spells later on.

I love this guide and wanted to point out the latest errata lets you change your level 3 Any school spell for another any school spell.
https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/d.../PH-Errata.pdf
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 98). In the final sentence of this subsection, the closing phrase has changed to read as follows: “... unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.”


Stroke of Luck
Thinking about what you might use this for specifically as an Arcane Trickster I came up with the following. Does anyone else have suggestions?

• Counterspell - If you take this spell, or Dispel Magic, you can guarantee countering.
• Scrolls - As an arcane caster you can make sure you cast a level 5-9 Wizard spell Scroll. Only useful if there is not a full arcane caster around.

[Specter]

It's been a long time! Let me take these one at a time.

I know I’m just scratching the surface of this class (I’m playing an eladrin arcane trickster at level 3), but it is just so much fun!

Thanks for the advice in this guide!

Hey, don't mention it.

Thread necromancy! Yay!

Using concentration as an AT/bladesinger on shadowblade isn't bad at all. If you have a sorcerer or wizard in the party who can haste you, or if you have a potion of speed then you'll dance around the battlefield and dominate all encounters. There are also some very good non-concentration spells you'll have access to that are huge boosts to you and your allies. Upcasting blindness/deafness on a group of enemies is HUGE because you're effectively giving yourself and allies advantage on all attacks against them, and the spell doesn't use concentration. Then there are other non-concentration spells like cone of cold, steel wind strike, synaptic static if you want to use them. One of my favored tactics is starting combat hidden, using synaptic static or blindness/deafness then using bladesong on turn 1, then turn 2 bonus action shadowblade at 5th level and move in for the kill on turn 2.

Also if you're running an AT/BS build getting hit by damage spells is not a bad thing; use absorb elements, upcast it to 4th+ level and add some extra D6s to your next melee attack. The last time I used my AT/BS in a game I was able to hit a crit after using absorb elements on a cone of cold at 6th level. 8D8 + 5 shadowblade + 6D8 booming blade + 12D6 sneak + 12D6 cold. It was an epic kill on an archmage.

And as for other optimized nova builds? For sure, a sorlock quickening eldritch blast after something has been hexed is pretty potent at 8D10+40 (assuming 5 CHA and g) + 8D6 is going to outdamage on average, but it is so boring. (Speaking as someone who has played a couple of warlocks.) It's so much less versatile than an AT/BS, as well. The point of the arcane trickster bladesinger isn't to be the party's novaburst in the same way that a sorlock, pallock, sorcadin, assassin/champion, zealot/palladin/fighter combos are. It's built to be very good at a lot of things, and is very good at helping party synergy.

This. Also:
- Arcane Tricksters are not meant to have as much damage as other options, but most of their damage is at-will, so that tips the scale.

Hi!

First of all, thanks and congrats for this guide. By far the best I've seen in years: exhaustive enough for anyone to grasp how to play an Arcane Trickster, yet concise enough and greatly structured so it's not a pain to read.

Didn't have time to read in detail (especially the races and such), but a few comments.

On spells: I'd strongly recommend Comprehend Languages as a non-school suggestion, at least for AT that want to act as party-face, or those that rely heavily on espionnage (pair with Observant then).

On feats:
- For any regular melee AT that can reliably land Booming Blade, I'd recommend Mobile: paired with possibly occasional Longstrider, it makes you a real pain to deal with because you can safely retreat back so melee-geared enemy simply has no other choice than either fall back on ranged attack (not its forte) or move and take the additional damage.
- For Grappler Rogues: Grappler feat is a staple for those: it does not help on first turn's action economy where Grappling will take your action's Attack, but on enemies with high HP it makes you completely autonomous in applying Sneak Attack while you drag it away from enemies (and possibly allies). Of course, if you intend to tag-team with another melee that can reliably Shove before your Grapple, then the point is moot, but that's kinda rare imx. ^^
- For any AT: Ritual Caster: Wizard, provided DM allows you to write scrolls of spells you know (following DMG/Xanathar's rulles), helps expanding your utility and global number of "spell known" without having to actually multiclass into a Wizard.

Thank you, sir.
For your 3rd-level spell, you want something you can be guaranteed to use. Even if you don't understand a spoken language, it's likely that someone else in the party will, because of the diverse players involved. Some campaigns don't even focus on languages either. Same with Observant (unless you have an odd INT).
But if you manage to get some Comprehend Languages scrolls, more power to you.
Mobile is also a good option to double down on movement, but there are things that are higher up the priority list (like keeping concentration).

1st post yay!

First of all thanks for the guide!! I started my first DnD campaign last Friday and I rolled an AT. This guide has been my bible. One thing that I'd like mention is the option of using Id Insinuation (Unearthed Arcana) instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. If you pick Toll the Dead as one of your cantrips I think Id Insinuation is a better choice as you could be doing up to 24 of necrotic/psychic dmg per turn to a "crazy" dude. Obviously you have to take in consideration your party's composition and how each spell benefits its members (falling prone laughing vs letting them run around like a maniac but taking dmg while they do so). Also, Id Insinuation doesn't trigger a save roll every time they are damaged.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!

I love this guide and wanted to point out the latest errata lets you change your level 3 Any school spell for another any school spell.
https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/d.../PH-Errata.pdf
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 98). In the final sentence of this subsection, the closing phrase has changed to read as follows: “... unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.”


Stroke of Luck
Thinking about what you might use this for specifically as an Arcane Trickster I came up with the following. Does anyone else have suggestions?

• Counterspell - If you take this spell, or Dispel Magic, you can guarantee countering.
• Scrolls - As an arcane caster you can make sure you cast a level 5-9 Wizard spell Scroll. Only useful if there is not a full arcane caster around.

Well, that's a very good errata!

[MrStabby]

Tasha's hideous laughter incapacitates and knocks a target prone. It prevents escapes, amongst other motion issues. Id insinuation doesn't knock a target prone, so it's free to move away, admittedly without being able to Dash. But it does do damage.

Against creatures immune to the Prone condition (or with Int 3 or lower), id insinuation is absolutely better.

One incidental perk of Tasha's hideous laughter that is also a potential downside: the target is explicitly laughing, which defintiely makes noise.


But, yes, I think, overall, id insinuation is the more broadly useful spell and thus is more powerful. Both are, I think, too strong for level 1. Compare hold person, which is level 2 and doesn't do that much more in terms of taking an enemy out of a fight, and is even less broadly applicable than Tasha's hideous laughter.

So my thinking about hideous laughter is that it seems about right, but probably depends on your DM/Game.

Essentially you are using a resource to trade your action for some number of actions from your enemies. Now whether this is a good trade deends on a lot of factors:

1) Probability of saving. Kind of the obvious one and a great way for you to spend an action and a spell slot to exchange your action for Zero enemy actions. On the other hand you can be exchanging your action for 2, 3 or more enemy actions if they have rubbish saves. That said, if you are incapacitating things that were not really a threat then it is not really much of a benefit. Better to think about it in terms of fractions of a side - say you are 25% of your party and you take out 15% of the threat of a fight by targetting one enemy than that enemy would need to fail at least two saves for you to be coming out ahead (yeah, on average all the usual caveats etc.) Now long can you keep concentrations for? My personal experience is that on average you can get about 1.5 failed saves from a well placed hideous laughter.

2) How much it limits your party's actions. If it stops a fireball from your side for fear of breaking the effect then there is another cost. If you hit the only target next to melee allies then you really run the risk of breaking the effect. Sure, a small downside, but it does come up.

3) Number of enemies in an encounter. Related to the one above... if you have two enemies in an encounter and you enchant one... you get a big effect, but one the other is down you are having them make a lot more saves if the party are attacking them.


My experience is that you can recoup more actions than you invest, that you can come out ahead, but it isn't reliable and I would expect you to come out ahead given you are expending resources on it. Certainly it does scale up quite well though.

[Mr Adventurer]

Played my first ever AT last night, hit 3rd level before our second encounter. Had time to cast Mage Hand before encounter started, and it was a blast: DM let me take all the arrows out of quivers (with a Dex check, since technically MH can normally only take one object i.e. one arrow), which really neutered the goblins sniping us from ledges!

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but a synergy I enjoyed discovering was that Mage Hand says you move it 30 feet each time you use it, and as an AT you can use it twice per round if you use your Action and Cunning Action - so it's faster than other Mage Hands, too.

[Lyracian]

So my thinking about hideous laughter is that it seems about right, but probably depends on your DM/Game.
1) Probability of saving. Kind of the obvious one and a great way for you to spend an action and a spell slot to exchange your action for Zero enemy actions. On the other hand you can be

My experience is that you can recoup more actions than you invest, that you can come out ahead, but it isn't reliable and I would expect you to come out ahead given you are expending resources on it. Certainly it does scale up quite well though.

The other factor is comparing it to your attack. Sure they could save against the spell but your attack could also miss. Taking one opponent out for a round or two may be much better than an extra 25 points of damage. They might get attacks while they are down but that is where tactics come into play. You can take a Boss out for a few rounds while you deal with his minions or separate a pair of strong opponents while your allies focus on one of them. Even it it is only one round the advantage attacking a prone target you give may also be worth that expenditure of resources.

For me this is the spell to use with Magical Ambush. With Int 16 you have DC 15 anything with a +5 Wiz save has a 70% chance of failing the save due to disadvantage which is the same chance of hitting AC 20 with advantage and a +9 attack (Dex 20 + Prof). There are plenty of monsters that have less than +5 for a save.

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but a synergy I enjoyed discovering was that Mage Hand says you move it 30 feet each time you use it, and as an AT you can use it twice per round if you use your Action and Cunning Action - so it's faster than other Mage Hands, too.

True but hand does go pop if it is ever more than 30' away. You could move it from 30' behind you to 30' in front of you using your Action and Bonus action in combat but I am struggling to think of a situation where that might actually prove useful...

[Mr Adventurer]

True but hand does go pop if it is ever more than 30' away. You could move it from 30' behind you to 30' in front of you using your Action and Bonus action in combat but I am struggling to think of a situation where that might actually prove useful...

I used it when there were enemies in either side of us, with me in the middle. Another circumstance would be if you have a high Speed. But it's just great that you can use it twice to do two different things in two different places in one round.

[Lyracian]

I used it when there were enemies in either side of us, with me in the middle. Another circumstance would be if you have a high Speed. But it's just great that you can use it twice to do two different things in two different places in one round.

But what did you actually do with the hand? I struggle to think of scenarios where there are two things I would ever want to do during combat with the hand? Stealing stuff while others are fighting is great but what are you managing to do that would have been better than doing an action, probably an attack, your self?

[Mr Adventurer]

I described it in my post above: I emptied the quivers of two ledgetop archers of their arrows. This forced them to come into melee to engage us where most of our expertise was, rather than harrying us from range.

[nickl_2000]

But what did you actually do with the hand? I struggle to think of scenarios where there are two things I would ever want to do during combat with the hand? Stealing stuff while others are fighting is great but what are you managing to do that would have been better than doing an action, probably an attack, your self?

I don't know, pickpocketing a spellcasters component pouch away from them is pretty darn effective.