What system for a "Metroidvania" style pen and paper RPG?

[Meta]

My gaming groups have expressed some interest in a Metroidvania inspired game. I don't imagine it would be a particularly long campaign, probably closer to a large module in size, across a couple levels of play. I've played several editions of D&D, Gamma World, Shadowrun, and Savage World, plus I've read up on a few other systems, but my knowledge base is pretty lacking. Any suggestions for a good system to suit this style of game?

[exelsisxax]

My gaming groups have expressed some interest in a Metroidvania inspired game. I don't imagine it would be a particularly long campaign, probably closer to a large module in size, across a couple levels of play. I've played several editions of D&D, Gamma World, Shadowrun, and Savage World, plus I've read up on a few other systems, but my knowledge base is pretty lacking. Any suggestions for a good system to suit this style of game?

DS/gameboy.

More seriously, define what you want in exhausting detail. "metroidvania" is sort of like "quantum" in how it has lost virtually any meaning it has once had as a result of being applied to everything.

[Thrudd]

Agree: We need to define terms and intent. What is it about the metroid type game that you want to emulate? In my mind, that would basically mean a dungeon with a relatively open floor plan, you have more than one choice of route and can backtrack at will. Certain areas are only accessible after possessing a particular item or ability or having cleared out an enemy. A variety of different enemies in different areas. You are ultimately looking to find the "boss" and defeat them, and/or to escape the dungeon.
You definitely want random encounters/wandering monsters. If you leave an area for some amount of time and come back, there should be more or new creatures there.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, the thing is... Metroidvania-style games are very tightly designed. They basically go Explore Area > Fight Enemies > Find Power-Up > Gain Access to New Areas. That's fine for a video game where they can limit the number of ways that the player can accomplish things, but in tabletop roleplaying there's not supposed to be only one way to do things. These scenarios are tailored for the (usually singular) character who will be sent through them. Contrast with tabletop games which have a much looser design and don't normally choose the characters the players get to play as. Also, many tabletop RPGs have characters who gain power through self-learning (whether that's by leveling up or buying new abilities or what have you) rather than by finding the next thing the DM has left for them to find. It is therefore not as easy to control what new abilities your players will develop during the course of the adventure.

Here's an example. In basically any Metroid game, there's some place that Samus cannot jump up to. Later, she get's high-jump boots that let her jump to many places she could not previously reach. In a real roleplaying game, jumping high may not be the only way to reach greater heights. Maybe characters can climb, maybe they have a rope and a grappling hook, maybe the party wizard can fly or climb using magic, maybe they can just stack a bunch of things up to make a staircase. Similarly, in a video game, there are many obstacles that require a specific weapon or item to bypass, but in an RPG there are usually different methods available. The video game character doesn't have the option to break down a wall to go around a locked door, but that's easily something they might want to do if they had the freedom to go beyond their programming.

There are many possible solutions to these kinds of problems that would be available in a game where the players can use their imaginations that are not available in the video-game version where the designers are in control of literally everything. In other words, what makes for a good video game doesn't always hold up outside of the arbitrary world of such artificial constructs.

[Pleh]

The system doesn't matter as much. In fact, for the most part, you really want to handle this in a Freeform RPG and you make it clear to the players that in combat, players have full autonomy to handle combat in any way they choose (with a possible exception of a few bosses), while outside of combat, they should not expect character ability to matter.

Metroidvania is a Japanese Puzzle Box. The idea is to be able to see many possible moves you can make and one particular objective, but only one move you make will actually advance you towards your goal. It's all about the illusion of choice while navigating what is essentially a linear set of logical steps. With the exception of combat (which you should sprinkle everywhere to keep things feeling exciting), no character ability can auto-solve the puzzle. The entire game is about the Player analyzing the scenario and deducing the appropriate solution through logic and trying things out.

As the game progresses, certain out of combat abilities that grant access to other areas might come into play, but that will be made clear as these abilities are gained.

If you use a premade TTRPG system, the character abilities will really take away the control your map needs to pull this off. You probably should have your entire game mapped out including every detail needed to solve it and many red herrings to make the solution less obvious.

There is another problem: Metroidvania is a Solo game adventure. There isn't usually a whole lot of need to have a Party of heroes. As soon as any one of them understands the solution, they simply do it. If they can't simply do it, they just roll. If they don't roll high enough, they roll again.

What you probably want is to give each player a few different pieces of the puzzle required to solve it (the old Two Key Door problem where you have to open it together or it won't open at all).

Example: The exit to this room is concealed by an illusion, barred by a weighted portcullis, and locked with an advanced mechanism. The Elf Wizard naturally detects the secret door and can suppress the illusion, but then is too occupied to lift the portcullis and manage the lock. The Half-Orc Fighter, now able to see the exit, uses their impressive strength to lift the portcullis, but they still cannot simultaneously manage the lock. The Halfling Rogue, now able to see and reach the exit, opens the lock with their uncanny knack and the exit is opened. The heroes can now pass through to the next area.

[Meta]

Stuff requested:

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.



Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

[Thrudd]

Stuff requested:

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.



Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

That describes exactly what D&D is made for. That's a dungeon. 5e would work perfectly, the social stuff is fairly irrelevant to the system anyway. But Basic D&D or AD&D or systems based on those are perfect if you want to remove all the chaff not necessary for dungeoning.

Also "every map connected" is generally how maps work. What else would there be behind a door but another place on a map? Are there some doors that open into the bottomless void?

[Grod_The_Giant]

That describes exactly what D&D is made for. That's a dungeon. 5e would work perfectly, the social stuff is fairly irrelevant to the system anyway. But Basic D&D or AD&D or systems based on those are perfect if you want to remove all the chaff not necessary for dungeoning.

This. You've described a dungeon crawl. You're pretty much exactly described a dungeon crawl. Pick whatever system your group most enjoys the combat in and draw up a big-ass map full o' monsters.

[Meta]

It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Depends on the edition (5e is a lot more controlled than 3.5 in that regard, and from what I remember of 4e that had even less), but even that can be mitigated with careful dungeon design and/or the odd ban. Like I said, the most important thing is the combat-- from the sound of things, fighting is going to be the dominant feature of the campaign, so you'll want a system that puts a lot of spit and polish into that side of things, and that everyone enjoys the flow of.

[Thrudd]

It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Maybe your dungeons are a lot smaller than the ones I'm thinking of. Have you ever seen Temple of Elemental Evil or the Undermountain or a lot of the other AD&D modules? The size of the map aside, it sounds like a fairly classic dungeon. The amount of magic available is really up to you, of course. With Basic or AD&D, players can cast relatively few spells, there are no at-will powers/cantrips, and the player may not even get to choose which spells their character knows (in AD&D it is suggested the DM roll dice to see what spells a level 1 character has in their spell book). Without the ability to retreat from the dungeon, resting safely and recovering spells will be much less frequent as well. I mean, using specific spells (spider climb, levitate, fly, etc.) are exactly the sort of thing that could be the solution to reaching a restricted item or solving a puzzle. Look at Basic D&D or some retroclones before you decide that it is a poor choice. I think if you only know 5e or even 3.x/PF, you really don't know how suited to this idea D&D is. This is the game designed exclusively for players to take characters through gigantic, multi-level dungeon complexes full of secret doors and hidden rooms and tricks and traps where they need to solve puzzles and fight monsters around every corner.

A modification you could make to keep the magic more limited is to replace all spell use with consumable items like potions. Imagine a party of fighters and thieves that each have a few potions or similar one-off items. Their only source of replenishing magic will be items they find in the dungeon.

But there are definitely other systems. Pretty much anything you look at other than D&D is going to have more non-combat features than D&D. Hackmaster is similar to D&D but with more detailed combat procedures. GURPS can be almost anything, there are generic fantasy supplements and an actual dungeon crawling fantasy supplement, too. D6 is another generic that has rules for a range of magic and combat details. Both those systems are really toolkits for you to design your setting, including all the options that will be available to players. In any case, you can choose to downplay the non-combat character elements - just tell players it will be combat focused and list the skills and abilities that will be relevant to your game, and they can build their characters appropriately.

[Pleh]

Stuff requested:

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.



Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

Yes, to this extent, D&D should work fine. The real problem is:

It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Yes, Full Casters. But even magic isn't too bad if you just do the work to plan for what spells are allowed.

This is definitely not suited for "sandbox 3.5 all splats and dragon mag allowed." This may be Core Only E6 (maybe add phb2, comp adv, and dungeonscape at most), so heroes never get to bend reality around their finger.

Also, Metroidvania can make Material Spell Components critical. Yes, you have a full caster, but to get the components needed to cast, you gotta progress.

[Mordaedil]

I'd say D&D works just fine, just take out the wizard, sorcerer, cleric and druid, making bards the main casters.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

E6

I second this suggestion. As the OP points out D&D has a lot of abilities in its advanced content that lets you circumvent the traditional problems of dungeon crawls, like teleportation and scrying. That's why dungeon crawling is typical for the lower levels of d&d, but not as much for the endgame. If you don't want those high level magical options (even just a druid spending the whole day switching between being a flying and a burrowing animal can make a lot of puzzles a lot less challenging) you can either put a heavy restriction on magic or magic using classes, or you can limit how high the levels go. Given that this is supposed to be inspired by games with quick combat that last option sounds better to me, as higher level martial characters tend to have longer battles. Maybe edit the healing and resting rules a bit to prevent 15 minute adventuring days and E6 or E8 should work well for this. (In case Meta in unfamiliar with the term, E6 is basically d&d where you stop gaining levels at level 6 and instead gain a single new feat for every point where you'd level up, leading to characters with diverse options but limited power, E6 characters max out roughly around or below the power level of normal level 10 characters, and spellcasting in particular has a harder time outshining the other ways of life..)

There are loads of other options of course. Systems like Basic Fantasy (never played it, but heard some decent things about it on the forum I think) are designed to give the classic D&D feel in a rules light package, so anything like that might work. If you don't mind homebrewing a bunch a general/setting neutral system like Gurps, Fudge or Fate would work. They're a little more freeform, so it's harder to design puzzles with exact solutions while in d&d things like jumping distance are codified pretty well, but what you lose in rigidness of design you gain in flexibility of what you can add in. I would probably prefer either some version of d&d and in particular E6 or E8 or a streamlined "retroclone" though.

[Florian]

It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Nah, it´s always just one very large dungeon with some choke points, boss fights and backtracking. Metroid and such basically tried to copy a D&D stable, the "Mega Dungeon".

[Anymage]

One of the biggest problems is that, unless you're plotting out a massive megadungeon, one of the big draws to Metroid and similar games is the exploration. (And, if we're being honest, nigh-onto cheats. Players get really invested in being able to get into areas before they're "supposed to" be able to, and often into areas they were never meant to get into in the first place.) You can't simulate the platformer-esque elements of the genre, but you can give big explorable spaces for your players to tool around in.

The other big catch is inherent in the nature of any game where players get to make choices in how their character develops. Samus is guaranteed to get missiles, bombs, high jumps, and ice beams at very particular points in the game. The devs can then plan areas around these expectations. You can't know if the player will pick the Jump spell or the Charm spell. If the players pick an ability you hadn't planned around - or worse, don't pick an ability that you had planned on them getting - that's going to throw a monkey wrench into any plans you may have made.

[Mordaedil]

You can't plan what spells players will pick, but you can plan what magic items are available in the dungeon, which you can use inspired from other Metroidvania games (Castlevania or Metroid, both have amazing tools that might require some unique magic items)

[Meta]

Nah, it´s always just one very large dungeon with some choke points, boss fights and backtracking. Metroid and such basically tried to copy a D&D stable, the "Mega Dungeon".

Distinct dungeons as in they're different biomes. The abandoned manor is connected to the catacombs underneath and the grounds outside but are aesthetically and tactically distinct. That's what I mean.

Slightly off topic, but I play in a 5e Mega Dungeon campaign, called just that. Great for rotating DMs and gimmicks, not so great if you like to roleplay with NPCs a lot.

I really don't think DnD is the solution. I've played 10 years of DnD now and I don't think I would describe any of 3.X-5 as being tight when it comes to combat. Add in too much magic and too much emphasis on the social aspect, and I'd like to try something else. I appreciate a lot of the responses so far, but the "No, DnD is fine" ones aren't really getting me closer to an answer.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

You could try the D6 system. Another one I haven't played, so maybe someone else can weigh in, but it looks a bit stricter and less loose around the edges than more freeform general systems, having stuff like base stats and pretty much requiring high stats for good results. At the same time it also seems less complex and option filled than high level D&D. There is a splatbook specifically for the adventure/pulp genre, which might be a nice switchup from medieval fantasy to help set this dungeon apart, and which would reign in the magic (a bit, it is still present).

[exelsisxax]

Distinct dungeons as in they're different biomes. The abandoned manor is connected to the catacombs underneath and the grounds outside but are aesthetically and tactically distinct. That's what I mean.

Slightly off topic, but I play in a 5e Mega Dungeon campaign, called just that. Great for rotating DMs and gimmicks, not so great if you like to roleplay with NPCs a lot.

I really don't think DnD is the solution. I've played 10 years of DnD now and I don't think I would describe any of 3.X-5 as being tight when it comes to combat. Add in too much magic and too much emphasis on the social aspect, and I'd like to try something else. I appreciate a lot of the responses so far, but the "No, DnD is fine" ones aren't really getting me closer to an answer.

"D&D is fine" fully and completely answers the question you asked. If you are unsatisfied, you must certainly pose a revised question. We can't read your mind.

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Literally any game with maps, and most games without maps. This is just a thing that TTRPGs just do so easily everybody forgets that it's a feature.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

TTPRGs are all bad at this, because they are designed to enable play. Basically anything you pick will be about as useless as any other to make this happen. This is what a video game does, not a TTRPG.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Literally any game that has a location-based focus where obfuscation is a physical possibility. So yes, D&D works just as well as anything else, and even supports progression with new capabilities.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.

pffffffffffft ahhahahahhahaha - that's a pretty good joke. Yeah, D&D is basically a monster-fighting game and works fine here.

Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

Sure, but again, so does almost everything else. People are just saying stick with D&D because you indicate you already know it. You'd learn a new system for no benefit. If you want a better answer, ask a better question.

[Meta]

Stuff

D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.


The D6 system looks pretty good at first blush, I'll look a little deeper, thanks Lvl 2 Expert.

[Grod_The_Giant]

D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.


The D6 system looks pretty good at first blush, I'll look a little deeper, thanks Lvl 2 Expert.

Compared to other systems, D&D has a ton of support for combat, a fair bit (depending on exact edition) for exploration, and "here are some social skills" for social stuff. Comparing it to a system with dedicated social mechanics like Exalted is night and day.

But anyway, if you're not feeling D&D, I'd suggest Savage Worlds as the next best option on your list. Going off games I'm familiar with...

• 3.5 D&D/PF: Could work well, lot of depth to the fighting, but also kind of slow to the fighting and would require many houserules as to what sorts of magic are available.
• 5e D&D: Eh. Many similar issues to 3.5, with the added issue of less interesting fight mechanics.
• 4e D&D: From my memory, it sounds real good, with a nice tight emphasis on tactical combat.
• Savage Worlds: Should work out alright. From what I remember, the combat is pretty quick and solid.
• Exalted: Hahahaha, no.
• Mutants and Masterminds: AHHAHAHAHAHA, no.
• Fate: An abstract system geared towards roleplaying is definitely not what you want here.

Again, I suggest focusing on the kind of combat you want (since that sounds like the main element here) and trimming away any other problematic bits.

[Scots Dragon]

Even going with D&D for this, you don't even need to limit all that much. Just have the place be surrounded by permanent versions of Dimensional Anchor, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Screen, and similar, and you've got somewhere in which your traditional teleportation and scrying magic doesn't work all that well, and it makes sense if you're going down the Castlevania path of this being something like the lair of an ancient evil monster like Count Dracula or some kind of evil archwizard. They've specifically made the labyrinthine maze to get to them even harder to navigate.

[Thrudd]

D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.


The D6 system looks pretty good at first blush, I'll look a little deeper, thanks Lvl 2 Expert.

You've only played newer D&D. Older editions are literally like completely different games from the stuff that came after 2000, other than aesthetics. Even in the new editions the "social pillar" claim is BS. In older D&D it does not exist. It is literally a game made for fighting monsters and solving puzzles in dungeons and nothing else. Look at D&D Rules Cyclopedia, 1e AD&D, or retroclones like Adventurer Conqeueror King, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

D6 is great. You just need to be careful with what you allow in character creation based on the type of challenges you expect to have. It is easy for players to min-max and have incredibly high skill levels that will trivialize a lot of things. I would not allow specializations at all for a game of such limited scope. Also choose very carefully what style of combat initiative you use.

[Meta]

Even going with D&D for this, you don't even need to limit all that much. Just have the place be surrounded by permanent versions of Dimensional Anchor, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Screen, and similar, and you've got somewhere in which your traditional teleportation and scrying magic doesn't work all that well, and it makes sense if you're going down the Castlevania path of this being something like the lair of an ancient evil monster like Count Dracula or some kind of evil archwizard. They've specifically made the labyrinthine maze to get to them even harder to navigate.

Even with limiting stuff like scrying, there are still going to be a lot of movement abilities, puzzle solving, etc. When I DM 5e I try to be a DM who says yes to players. You can use mage hand to flip this switch or prestidigitation to clear away your tracks, etc. Things like flipping a switch from a distance can throw a wrench in to a Metroidvania type set up though, and that's at just the cantrip level. Better to not let players have those options in the system than to have players pick them or any of the other rather weak spells for this like charm person.

@Grod

4e would be pretty decent, but:
Combat is a slog. It's not bad at really low levels but HP balloons too quickly and characters get a bit unwieldy. I have a couple houserules we already use to fine tune it in our 4e game but it's not super smooth.
Rituals would probably need tweaked. I could cut them out, and it would definitely be removing less than a lot of the spells in 3e, 5e, etc. but still trying to find a system that doesn't require it. It's the best of the DnD systems for this imo.

Savage Worlds would be the top of the games I've played thus far I think, we're in accord there. There is some utility 'magic' but it's a lot less.

I just noticed you're from my neck of the woods. I grew up in Greensburg, PA.

Edit for Thrudd: I'm open to playing an older DnD if it's suitable. I have a couple things to investigate already, do you have a favorite or two from that list or are they all roughly equal?

[Grod_The_Giant]

4e would be pretty decent, but:
Combat is a slog. It's not bad at really low levels but HP balloons too quickly and characters get a bit unwieldy. I have a couple houserules we already use to fine tune it in our 4e game but it's not super smooth.
Rituals would probably need tweaked. I could cut them out, and it would definitely be removing less than a lot of the spells in 3e, 5e, etc. but still trying to find a system that doesn't require it. It's the best of the DnD systems for this imo.

I just noticed you're from my neck of the woods. I grew up in Greensburg, PA.

Yeah, I remember HP bloat being an issue-- I think I cut it by half across the board and things got more fun. I hear they fixed the math in the MM3, but I couldn't swear by that-- it's been a while since I played, and that was only at the start of the cycle.

Southwestern PA represent!

[Knaight]

D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.

The system as it is and the system goals the designers claim to have aren't necessarily the same thing. The designers can claim that there are three equal pillars all they want; in reality there's one massive pillar (combat), one frail and spindly pillar (exploration), and one wire that runs from floor to ceiling (social interaction).

[Florian]

@Meta:

So, to sum it up:
- Characters shouldn't have any innate ability to alter or modify their surroundings
- Character growth should be a mix of internal (more hp, better to hit chance and such) and external (reach a story point, get an ability or equipment piece)
- Room-based dungeons.
- No shopping

How about using the Deathwatch RPG? It´s quite easy to handle "Story Talents" for reaching a check-point or defeating a area boss, which can then "unlock" a new ability to explore further and it´s also easy to modify the requisition system to enable further equipment upgrades for reaching goals.

[Mordaedil]

I'd say consider 1st or 2nd edition D&D. I think it might surprise you. Especially 1st edition where the max hits you at level 10 and every level has a unique title.

[Meta]

Deathwatch could be a good fit. Stick them aboard a derelict space hulk or cruiser or something and they can't just lascannon down doors or risk depressurizing. 40k always has fun flavor too. Do the character roles feel pretty distinct?

I'm up for an earlier dnd edition, just hoping some sort of consensus is reached by the end of this so I can dig in to just the best one.