Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Fishing For Crits

    flip it on its back, attack it's weak point, and deal massive critical damage

    Abstract:
    Crits. they feel good, amiright? But what if you could have them more often? What if you could make them deal even more damage. This guide explores the methods of getting more crits and how to make those crits better.

    Throughout, I'll be using the following key:
    Superior
    Decent
    Suboptimal

    Wait, wait, hold on, is Crit-fishing really viable?
    Spoiler: rambling justification
    Show

    Everyone knows that crits deal a lot of damage. Crits increase your damage output on an attack somewhere between 30% and 100%, but a lot of people say "Oh, come on, you're only going to be getting a crit on 1/20 or 2/20 rolls, that's not that reliable." In one sense, they're right. The highest chance you can get per roll is 3/20, or about 15%. However, with various features you can raise the number of rolls you make per attack. A 15th level champion with elven accuracy has a crit-chance per attack of 38%!

    And actually, that's still somewhat misleading, because crit-chance-per-attack isn't really directly connected to DPR. For that, you'll need to look at crit-chance-per-hit. I'll explain this with an example. Let's say that champion fighter up above needs to roll a 13 or higher to actually hit his enemy. He has a 78% chance of hitting him, and a 38% of critting. On the 22% of times that he does not hit, he will deal no damage. On the 38% of times where he crits, he'll deal close to double damage. Lets say he does not have GWM, but has a flaming greatsword that averages 15 damage on a hit.

    expected damage without crits: 0.78*15 = 11.7
    expected crit bonus damage: 0.38*15 = 5.7

    In other words, crits account for fully a third of this character's damage. Therefore critfishing forms a large proportiopnal part of his damage. And this is without using crit-on-demand abilities like assassinate or hold person. Most importantly, however, crits feel great and are very fun. There is a slight problem with crit-fishing, in that a lot of times you'll 'waste' a bunch of damage on a weak target, but in my experience, obliterating a goblin with 75 damage is still tons of fun.

    The other thing to note here is that crit-fishing is something you get better returns on the more that you build into it. If you're not getting advantage and don't have any way to deal extra damage on a crit (smite, brutal critical) the champion 3 feature is actually worse than an ASI.


    Notes
    1. I'm not looking at UA at this time.
    2. This is a practical guide to crit-fishing, not a theoretical discussion of the maximum crit damage you can get. That particular discussion has been done to death. The answer, by the way, is Bugbear vPally 3, Assassin 17, wielding a rapier and using Booming Blade through Magic initiate.
    3. I'm not considering magic items. Going champion 15 makes a lot more sense if you have a flaming greatsword, but we're pretending that you don't.
    4. As with everything in 5e, builds get better with teamwork. It's a lot more practical to ask your wizard to cast hold person than it is to try and fit 3 levels of wizard into your barbarian build.

    Quick Version
    Spoiler: if you're too lazy to read the rest of this guide.
    Show

    Race
    There are three races that offer bonuses to crit-based builds. You don't have to pick one of these, but they are the best options.
    Bugbear: Get's 2d6 damage against surprised enemies. The logical choice if you are picking up assassin levels
    Elf(any type): Let's you get elven accuracy which is a great crit-fishing feat and a great feat in general. Logical for dex-based crit-fishers.
    Orc/Half-Orc: Bonus damage to crits based off of weapon die size. Good for STR-based crit-fishers.

    Class
    Paladin/Whispers Bard/Hexblade: Adds lots of damage after you crit. These abilities are twice as valuable for a crit-focused build as they are normally. Paladin breaks at 2 or 5 for our purposes(6 is also a breakpoint).
    Hexblade:. Gives you a means of fishing for crits if you're DEX-based. Adds lots of damage after you crit. Multiclass away after 1, 5, 9, or 11.
    Sorcerer: Can quicken hold person and then run in and get automatic criticals in melee.
    Assassin: Automatic criticals in a surprise round, and most of your damage comes from dice. Multiclass away after lvl 3 or not at all if you want SA damage.
    Barbarian: makes crits hit harder if you're willing to invest a lot of levels.
    Champion: makes crits more frequent. Ideal for either DEX-based or STR-based fishing. Generally more than 3 levels is not a good idea.

    Intuitive multiclasses include champion/barbarian, any combination of those incestuous CHA-based casters, or Assassin/Barbarian.


    Maximizing Crit Chance:


    Disadvantage: because real men earn their crits

    Expand the Crit Range
    In 3x every weapon had it's own crit range. In 5e, everything is 20 by default and there are only a few abilities that increase chance, which means we definitely want them:

    Spoiler
    Show

    Improved Critical(Champion Fighter 3): You're wielding a weapon? Good. You have more crits. No actions used, no resources expended. Very strong. Requires a three-level dip, but then, Champion 3 is a sensible dip for many characters.
    Hexblade's Curse(Hexblade Warlock 1): Requires a bonus action to activate and it's only against one target and it's only once per short rest and since you're going hexblade it doesn't make sense to use anything other than a longsword or rapier... but it only requires a one level dip and it's incredibly synergistic with Sorcerers, paladins, etc. Strictly worse than Improved Critical for our purposes.
    Superior Critical(Champion Fighter 15): On the one hand this takes the awesomeness of Champion 3 and makes it better. On the other hand, you have to go all the way to Champion 15. This is the only way to get an 18-20 crit chance.
    Invincible Conqueror(Conquest 20): get's you to 19-20 for a full minute. Only works on melee weapon attacks, making it by far the weakest of the options for our purposes.


    Rerolls for Days
    So, if you can only make your chances on any given roll so high, the obvious next step is to make more rolls.

    Spoiler
    Show

    More Attacks(various): I talk about crit-chance per attack, but obviously if you get more attacks your chances can skyrocket. Two-Weapon fighting, Haste, the extra attack feature, the Gloomstalker's dread ambusher ability... they're all covered here. That said, some classes that give lots of attacks (like the fighter) don't really give you that much bonus crit damage, so be wary.
    Advantage(mechanic):This is a huge boost to your crit chance, and all you have to do is... well, it varies. There's lots of ways of getting advantage consistently. Some examples include a familiar, Reckless Attack, darkness+devil's sight, and flanking.
    Elven Accuracy(feat): Cons are that you gotta spend half a feat, meet a minimum standard of elfishness, use a non-STR-based weapon, and then find a way to get advantage. Pros are that your crit chance increases by a wide margin.
    Lucky(feat): a great feat in general, and you can use it to boost your crit chances, by turning disadvantage into double advantage. Over the course of a day the effect isn't that great, however, and there are better usages of this ability.
    Lucky(Halfling): is a fine feature that gives a *tiny* (<1%) bonus to your chances on each attack. It also doesn't really combine well with advantage.
    Master Duelist(Swashbuckler 17): Once per short rest, you get to reroll if you're using the right sort of weapon and... yeah, it's better than halfling luck, worse than almost anything else for our purposes.
    Stalker's Flurry(Gloom Stalker 11): As 'master duelist' but once per turn. Not nearly as good as elven accuracy, but it works with all weapons, and against a high AC opponent it's pretty nice.


    Alternately, Don't Roll At all
    There are a variety of bonuses that just give you a free crit.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Hold Person/Hold Monster: Any attack made from 5 feet away against a paralyzed target that hits is an automatic crit. Note that although you'll have advantage, you do still need to actually hit the guy. Very good, but unless you have three levels in sorcerer you'll usually want a friend to cast this for you.
    Sleep/Unconscious: Don't let sleeping dogs lie, hit them before they bite you! This is a good method at low levels, but if you can get them while asleep, you should be able to win regardless.
    Portent(Diviner 2): You don't even roll a d20! The Diviner just hands you a crit and you roll for damage (terrible, terrible damage). This feels very strong, but most of the time this isn't the best usage of the ability and it can only give you at most a crit or two per day.
    Assassinate:All attacks against a surprised foe are crits. Self-explanatory and great.


    Maximizing Crit Damage:


    Boom, Headshot


    Stuff That Gives Extra Damage, (But Only When You Crit)
    These abilities were balanced with the assumption that you'd have at best a 10% crit chance. Since we'll be getting crits much more often than that, they're better for us than they are for everyone else.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Brutal Critical(Barbarian 9,13,17): 1 extra damage die of the same type as whatever your weapon deals. This is great, but unfortunately it doesn't get started until quite late.
    Savage Attacks(Half-Orc): Same as Barbarian 9, and stacks with it. Note: when you can get a 9th level feature at level 1, that's a good thing. The only drawback is that being a half-orc means you can't qualify for elven accuracy (half-orc/half-elf=OP?) but that's fine if you're STR-based. Works best with a Greataxe.
    Divine Smite/Eldritch Smite(Paladin 2, Hexblade 5): OK, so these are different features and you can use them when you don't crit. Since we'll be critting so often, though, the value of these (already stellar) abilities is doubled. You can use both smites on the same attack, expending two spells to do so, but that's probably overkill. (just kidding, overkill doesn't exist.)
    Superiority Dice(Battlemaster 3): Once again, you can technically use this when you're not critting, although I don't know why. Then again, you chose to go BM for a crit-fishing build so anything is on the table, really. Not a huge bonus, but it is a positive. Other classes get superiority die or an equivalent. (swords bard) They're all mediocre for our purposes.
    Arcane Shot(Arcane Archer 3): a little bit better than superiority dice for our purposes. Gets much better at level 18, but we all know that isn't a real place.
    Orcish Fury(feat): Can't take it if you're a full orc! But yeah, add another weapon damage die 1/short rest. If you add it after you cit, you get two weapon damage die so clearly that's what you're always going to do. A small bonus, but it's half of a half-feat so what did you expect?
    Psychic Daggers(Whispers Bard 3): Bard smite! 4-5 times per short rest, so you can use it on a non-crit but you won't.


    Stuff That Gives Extra Damage, (And Plays Nicely with Crits)
    Self-explanatory. You want damage that comes in the form of more dice as opposed to damage that comes in the form of flat bonuses. You also want stuff associated with weapon attacks, since that's where your expanded crit range comes into play. There's a ton of good examples here since nearly every class has some way to add dice, but I'm going to talk about the stand-out options. Many of these are great spells and abilities, but I'm ranking them on the basis of how much better they make us at critting.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Sneak Attack(Rogue 1): A fistful or two (or three or four) of d6 goes a long ways. Pure, dice-based damage. Only works with finesse weapons but can be used in a str build if you have a way of getting heavy/medium armor.
    Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade(Cantrip,SCAG): Both of the effects that increase crit range require weapon attacks, so unless you're using portent/hold person, this is probably your best way to crit with a cantrip.
    Shadow Blade(Wizard Spell,XGtE): You get a finesse weapon that deals 2-5 times as many die as a rapier, depending on high you upcast it. Fantastic.
    Holy Weapon(Cleric Spell, XGtE): Shadow Blade's older, less edgy cousin. It's a buff to your weapon and not a new weapon, so if you have a vicious flametongue greatsword this is much better than Shadow Blade. Lasts a full hour.
    Hunter's Mark/Hex(Ranger/Warlock Spell): As close to free bonus dice as you can get without actually being free.
    Improved Divine Smite(Paladin 11):Is actually free. Funny how paladins keep coming up here.
    Ambush(Bugbear, VGtM):2d6 damage per attack against a surprised enemy. Nice. Unfortunately means that you can't be a half-orc or elf. (Half-Orc/Half-Elf, but raised by Bugbears=OP?)
    GWF(Fighting Style):If your DM doesn't pay attention to erratta, this is awesome. By RAW, GWF adds about .67 on average to each die you roll, so long as your attack involves a heavy weapon. Even with Errata, you'll get .67 per weapon damage die, which can still be pretty great for a high-level half-orc barbarian and his 8d12 crit damage.
    Savage Attacker(Feat):Reroll damage on all your weapon damage in a single attack, once per turn. This feat was made for a crit-fishing build! Unfortunately, this feat was made poorly. On 8d12, you'll get a damage buff of ~6. On 1d12 you'll get ~2. Decent by itself, but given the investment it is underwhelming for us.
    Dread Ambusher/Colossus Slayer/Planar Warrior:(Ranger 3): Most of the ranger subclasses get a few extra damage die. Decent.
    Divine Fury(Zealot 3): A free d6 is always welcome.

    There are also a lot of 'smite spells' as well as things like zephyr strike, which will buy you a few d8s and d6s here and there, but they're all very similar (not great) for our purposes so I won't call them out individually.


    Spoiler: FAQ
    Show


    Are GWM/Sharpshooter bad for a crit-fishing build?
    Well, no. If you roll a crit, you're going to hit pretty much regardless of the -5 or not. In fact, because both critfishing and GWM/SS require you to find advantage, these abilities work pretty well with each other. GWM in particular give an extra attack on each crit, which is insane. for builds like this.


    Builds:

    Spoiler: Bugbear Gloom Stalker 3/Assassin 17
    Show


    Feats: Sharpshooter.

    Not a crit-fisher, not really, but it has absurd crit damage, and a decent way to get crits. You can hit people from an absurd distance, you're invisible in the dark, you have expertise in stealth, and if you surprise an enemy, you get an automatic critical and deal silly damage. Death Strike lets you double damage against a target.

    crit chance per attack:100% (while attacking a surprised target. Otherwise 10%)

    Crit Damage:(2d8 (longbow) + 5(DEX) + 18d6(sneak attack) + 4d6(Ambush) + 2d8(dread ambusher) + 2d6(hunter's mark) + 10(SS)) * 2 = 228.

    Is it practical? Sorta. You're probably better off going for two more levels in gloom stalker though. Few games make it to tier 4.

    resources needed for listed damage? 1 first-level spell, surprise.



    Spoiler: Half-Orc Champion 3, Zealot 17
    Show

    Feats:Orc Fury, Savage attacker, GWM.

    Lays down fat crits. I know I said earlier that overkill doesn't exist, but in all seriousness it's a problem for this poor guy. You go up to bash a goblin and then you accidentally deal a hundred damage. Good news is, he doesn't really need to expend resources to hurt things. Even better news is that unlike the other two builds listed here, he can get 2-3 attacks off a turn, so he's much more consistent and his DPR is much higher than the numbers suggest.

    Crit Chance Per Attack: 19%
    Crit Damaget: 2d12 (greataxe) + 5(STR) + 3d12(Brutal Critical) + 1d12 (Savage Attacks) + 2d12(Orcish Fury) + 2d6 + 10(Divine Fury) + 5.5 (Savage Attacker) + 5.3 (GWF) + 4(rage damage) + 10 (GWM)= 99

    Is it practical? Yup! You can easily dump Savage Attacker from this build, but otherwise this is a very tough, effective build. Playing a zealot isn't really required here, any barbarian will do.

    resources needed for listed damage? 1 short rest ability (orcish fury) and 1 usage of rage.



    Spoiler: Drow Paladin 2, Hexblade 9, Draconic Sorcerer 9
    Show

    Feats: Elven Accuracy, Magic initiate:Wizard(find familiar)
    Ivocations:Eldritch Smite, Thirsting Blade, lifedrinker

    You too can live a breaking benjamin song! Hexblade's curse expands your range, your familiar gives you one source of advantage and leaves your concentration free. Or you can just skip the fishing and quicken hold person before running in. Your call.

    Crit Chance per Attack: 27%

    Crit Damage: 2d8(longsword) +5(CHA) + 10d8 (smite)+ 10d8 (eldritch smite) + 2 (dueling) +8d8 (GFB/BB) = 142

    Is it practical? Sure. However, bursts like the one shown above consume too many resources, so you're probably better off with a more stable sorcadin build. Note that twinning and quickening the blade attack cantrips is a really good way to fish for crits, since you can get up to four cantrips in a turn (not targeted at one person, however.) Note that you're also kinda low on HP.

    resources needed for listed damage? Hexblade's curse(1/sr), 2 4th level spells.

    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-04-21 at 11:16 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2017

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Love this guide so far! A couple suggestions:

    You might want to include a sky blue rating to help distinguish between components of good crit-fishing builds and great crit-fishing builds.

    Conquest Paladin's capstone increases crit range.

    Monks (esp. Drunken Master), Horizon Walker, Scout, Samurai, and Berserker all have ways to increase their number of attacks.

    Arcane Arrows, Kensei Shot, Eye for Weakness, and Divine Strike can all consistently add damage dice, but I understand if you felt like they didn't warrant inclusion.
    Last edited by Nidgit; 2018-02-17 at 01:07 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    Love this guide so far! A couple suggestions:

    You might want to include a sky blue rating to help distinguish between components of good crit-fishing builds and great crit-fishing builds.

    Conquest Paladin's capstone increases crit range.

    Monks (esp. Drunken Master), Horizon Walker, Scout, Samurai, and Berserker all have ways to increase their number of attacks.

    Arcane Arrows, Kensei Shot, Eye for Weakness, and Divine Strike can all consistently add damage dice, but I understand if you felt like they didn't warrant inclusion.
    Thanks! I knew I missed things There's just so many things to go through.

    I was never going to go through all the means of getting extra attacks. There are... a lot, and in terms of how they affect your crit chances, they're pretty much all the same, so there's no reason to go through them all. In general, fighters and monks are not great at crit-fishing since they tend not to have lots of bonus dice to add. Rangers give you more than 3 attacks, alongside a reasonable number of dice, but they still aren't my top choice.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Soooo... it's classic. It's basic. But :

    Half orc, Champion fighter 17, frenzied berzerker barbarian 3. Usual complement of feats.

    Up to 7 attacks with advantages, crit on 18+, rerolling damages. This is not the biggest crit, but you would have a reliable chance of scoring a crit every 3 attacks, with 2 in the action surge turn.
    Last edited by Coranhann; 2018-02-18 at 09:30 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Half-orc or bugbear Champ 15 / Assassin 3 / Barb 2 perhaps?
    Three attacks at best crit chance with constant source of advantage and aurocrits if you get the drop on some poor fool. Toss in action surge and rage as your rest based resources, can also function as a grappler on the side.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Mar 2017

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Trying to get as much total damage through crits (without looking for the biggest solo crit):

    Half orc, battlemaster fighter 11, diviner mage 3, rogue 6.

    1 - Cast hold person, use portent to make the target miss.

    2 - action surge for 3 attacks with auto crit. First attack with a rapier, then drop it and use a battleaxe (I think you can do that in one turn). Use sneak attack on there with orc fury, and battle

    So 1 attack will be : 2d8(rapier)+2d8(half orc racial)+2d8(orc fury)+2d10(battlemaster)+6d6(sneak)
    The next two will use d12 for weapon and no sneak. Move orc fury if you want to optimize total damage over having one big crit.
    Last edited by Coranhann; 2018-02-18 at 09:50 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    I'm really interested in trying the psychic blades way for Crits. How would that work in your proposed builds? Replace the paladin with Bard? Or would this require a whole seperate build.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    where South is East

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    One important thing that is missing is the caveat emptor that crit does less damage than a +1 hit and how to compensate for it.

    This is why you need brutal critical 2 and/or champion 4 before you get some payback.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    NW USA
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    I played a half-Orc Assassin 3/Barbarian 17 through level 20+ and it played very well... I was hearty enough to scout ahead and get my surprise rounds, and crit the heck out of people on that round. It was a Totem Barbarian, but it would be a Zealot now.

    *Half-Orc (customized)Urchin
    *Assassin 3/Zealot 17
    *17/14/16/8/10/8
    *Intimidation, Stealth, Perception, *Survival, Athletics, Investigation, Deception
    *Common, Orcish, Celestial
    *Thief Tools, Forgery Tools, (Disguise Kit, Poisoner’s Kit)
    *Expertise: Athletics, Stealth
    *Great Weapon Master, Orcish Fury, +2 Strength, Alert

    Zealot of Hoar, doing sort of a ‘vigilante superhero/urban legend’ avenger of the meek sort of thing

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Coranhann View Post
    Soooo... it's classic. It's basic. But :

    Half orc, Champion fighter 17, frenzied berzerker barbarian 3. Usual complement of feats.
    The issue here is that crits just don't do that much damage here. A crit with this build gives 2d12 extra damage at most, which is fine, but when compared with the 1d12(greataxe)+5(str)+2(rage)+1(gwf)+10(gwm)=24.5 that this guy's getting already, is just not that exciting.

    Ymmv, of course. If you have a magic flaming Battle axe this gets a lot better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Half-orc or bugbear Champ 15 / Assassin 3 / Barb 2 perhaps?
    Three attacks at best crit chance with constant source of advantage and aurocrits if you get the drop on some poor fool. Toss in action surge and rage as your rest based resources, can also function as a grappler on the side.
    Bugbear pairs well with assassin, for sure, but I think if you're going this route I'd either do a classic barbarogue or a deepstalker/assassin multiclass. Having both assassinate and superior critical seems redundant to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coranhann View Post
    Trying to get as much total damage through crits (without looking for the biggest solo crit):

    Half orc, battlemaster fighter 11, diviner mage 3, rogue 6.

    1 - Cast hold person, use portent to make the target miss.

    2 - action surge for 3 attacks with auto crit. First attack with a rapier, then drop it and use a battleaxe (I think you can do that in one turn). Use sneak attack on there with orc fury, and battle

    So 1 attack will be : 2d8(rapier)+2d8(half orc racial)+2d8(orc fury)+2d10(battlemaster)+6d6(sneak)
    The next two will use d12 for weapon and no sneak. Move orc fury if you want to optimize total damage over having one big crit.
    Reasonably confident that your best bet is the hexblade/Paladin/sorcerer I listed, but exchanging two levels of sorcerer for two levels of fighter. Somebody puts that thread up every few weeks.

    Not really the sort of books this thread is about though. This thread is supposed to be about practical, playable builds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malaketh View Post
    I'm really interested in trying the psychic blades way for Crits. How would that work in your proposed builds? Replace the paladin with Bard? Or would this require a whole seperate build.
    Well, it all depends. If you want guaranteed crits, just get 3 levels of sorcerer, 2 of Paladin, and go nuts. Smite, booming blade, and psychic blades on an incapacitated opponent is DPR heaven.

    For fishing, hex 5/whispers 15 is probably the best. You get two little smites right on top of each other that barely cost you anything. As a bonus this works nicely with elven accuracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    One important thing that is missing is the caveat emptor that crit does less damage than a +1 hit and how to compensate for it.

    This is why you need brutal critical 2 and/or champion 4 before you get some payback.
    Well, if you have advantage, a crit range increase is actually better. I think I will put a note in there, but if anyone is reading this guide, they should come up with a build that makes good use of the crit.

    You just need smite or Savage attacks or brutal critical. Any one will do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    I played a half-Orc Assassin 3/Barbarian 17 through level 20+ and it played very well... I was hearty enough to scout ahead and get my surprise rounds, and crit the heck out of people on that round. It was a Totem Barbarian, but it would be a Zealot now.

    *Half-Orc (customized)Urchin
    *Assassin 3/Zealot 17
    *17/14/16/8/10/8
    *Intimidation, Stealth, Perception, *Survival, Athletics, Investigation, Deception
    *Common, Orcish, Celestial
    *Thief Tools, Forgery Tools, (Disguise Kit, Poisoner’s Kit)
    *Expertise: Athletics, Stealth
    *Great Weapon Master, Orcish Fury, +2 Strength, Alert

    Zealot of Hoar, doing sort of a ‘vigilante superhero/urban legend’ avenger of the meek sort of thing
    This looks like an awesome amount of fun. Kind of a reverse on the classic barbarian rogue, eh?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Elven Accuracy(feat): Cons are that you gotta spend half a feat, meet a minimum standard of elfishness, use a non-STR-based weapon, and then find a way to get two sources of advantage. Pros are that your crit chance increases by a wide margin.
    Why do you say that one needs two sources of advantage to make Elven Accuracy work?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    Why do you say that one needs two sources of advantage to make Elven Accuracy work?
    Mistake. I've had this doc building for several weeks, and I wrote that bit before I had Xanathar's, so I was a little unclear. Thanks for catching it.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Lake Superior
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    My last DM is still regretting the synergy of the homebrew he showed us and told us he'd be using. He had a custom critical effect table, and a special table for crafting weapons, with one of the weapon enhancements being an expanded critical range. Not a set range, mind you; it explicitly stated that it increased the range by one.

    Well, once we had the means to make our own gear, we got right down to work. We had a Champion fighter; no crazy build, just your fairly standard S&B dorf in full-plate. He prioritized defense over offense, but as the campaign progressed, became the powerhouse of the party. This was a really long campaign; same characters for about two years running, and we eventually hit level 20. This guy. Annihilated. Everything. If he got in range, he'd knock the poor sap prone (Expertise + Shieldmaster OP), and then smack him 8 (9 if hasted) times. With a crit range of 17-20, he had a 38% chance of critting on a given attack. And he had 8 for the first two rounds of combat. This is where the crit table comes into play; it hosted a slew of events, ranging from negating the crit to instadeath. With all his crits, eventually the shmuck he was smacking would have a bad time, and it wasn't like he was in danger of dying, thanks to his absurd AC and health.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need some fancy build or feat tree, as long as you have some support and persistence, although when you do get it/use a custom build, it's pretty spooky. Hmmm....If he were an elf, that would have been a 49% crit chance with advantage. shudder
    Last edited by Rerem115; 2018-02-19 at 01:32 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2017

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post

    Sneak Attack(Rogue 1): A fistful or two (or three or four) of d6 goes a long ways. Pure, dice-based damage. Only works with finesse weapons so for our purposes it isn't great with a strength build.
    Sneak Attack only works with Finesse melee weapons, which give you the *option* to attack with Dex instead of Str, but you don't need to use Dex for the feature to work (unlike the Barbarian's Rage damage bonus and Reckless Attack, which explicity require you to use Str).
    Last edited by Platypusbill; 2018-02-20 at 07:23 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    -Under the race section you mention half-orcs should be using battleaxe. I'm guessing you mean greataxe. Sadly the math on the greataxe vs maul/sword is pretty bad. Roughly only once you get ~3 crit fishing abilities (expanded range, advantage, crit damage) does the greataxe finally outpace the sword.

    -You may want to mention under the GWM/SS section that GWM itself has very good synergy with crit fishing for obvious reasons.

    -Under ways to get automatic hits you might add that attacking unconscious foes also does the trick. Sleep spell for instance does wonders for this, although usually at lower levels.
    Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2018-04-20 at 12:33 PM.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Platypusbill View Post
    Sneak Attack only works with Finesse melee weapons, which give you the *option* to attack with Dex instead of Str, but you don't need to use Dex for the feature to work (unlike the Barbarian's Rage damage bonus and Reckless Attack, which explicity require you to use Str).
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    -Under the race section you mention half-orcs should be using battleaxe. I'm guessing you mean greataxe. Sadly the math on the greataxe vs maul/sword is pretty bad. Roughly only once you get ~3 crit fishing abilities (expanded range, advantage, crit damage) does the greataxe finally outpace the sword.

    -You may want to mention under the GWM/SS section that GWM itself has very good synergy with crit fishing for obvious reasons.

    -Under ways to get automatic hits that attacking unconscious foes also does the trick. Sleep spell for instance does wonders for this, although usually at lower levels.
    Thanks, made changes.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    I feel compelled to mention that fighting with two weapons is another way to gain attacks.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    where South is East

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Samayu View Post
    I feel compelled to mention that fighting with two weapons is another way to gain attacks.
    TWF crit damage (10.5 * .05) is less than versatile crit damage (11 * .05) in the normal case.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    In your sniper build, you have longbow damage as 1d10 not 1d8.

    Also: if you’re not building at 20, perhaps planar warrior would be the better since the extra attack granted from gloomstalker is a little wasted but planar warriors ability makes your attack all force damage, which has better coverage against foe types.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    I would mention reckless attack, barbarian level 2 advantage on strength melee attack rolls

    in the lots of attacks section
    action surge - cast another spell or full attack action
    haste - 1 weapon attack
    scorching ray can give 3-10 attacks, with action surge 6-19
    eldritch blast with quicken spell and action surge can give 6-12 attacks
    The thread is old but Thoughts on High number of attacks in one turn

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    strangebloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Samayu View Post
    I feel compelled to mention that fighting with two weapons is another way to gain attacks.
    Mentally, I'd merely considered that to be part of the 'extra attack' function, and there are a lot of ways to get more attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualswinger View Post
    In your sniper build, you have longbow damage as 1d10 not 1d8.

    Also: if you’re not building at 20, perhaps planar warrior would be the better since the extra attack granted from gloomstalker is a little wasted but planar warriors ability makes your attack all force damage, which has better coverage against foe types.
    Not many things are resistant to magical B/S/P. But sure, that might be better at some breakpoints.

    Thanks for the catch.
    Quote Originally Posted by numerek View Post
    I would mention reckless attack, barbarian level 2 advantage on strength melee attack rolls

    in the lots of attacks section
    action surge - cast another spell or full attack action
    haste - 1 weapon attack
    scorching ray can give 3-10 attacks, with action surge 6-19
    eldritch blast with quicken spell and action surge can give 6-12 attacks
    The thread is old but Thoughts on High number of attacks in one turn
    Yeah, I'm not going to list each and every thing that grants an extra attack and/or advantage. That'd be tedious. Plus, some things like EB don't work with either of the good expanded crit range abilities.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    I just want to say I appreciate the use of the term "BARDSMITE!" as I have been using it with my local group since the subclass's release. I do want to make a Bard/Paladin smite sometime.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Needs a mention of the Samurai. Yes, it doesn't have a built-in increased crit range, but they can just decide they have advantage for their turn with a bonus action at level 3, and if they go to 15 they can convert the first advantaged attack into two normal attacks, which I believe gives them potentially the greatest sheer number of attacks in one round at level 20 out of anyone in 5e, especially if they have haste.

    I'd also suggest Samurai 11/Hexblade 3/Gloom Stalker 3/Assassin 3. Pact of the Blade for any melee weapon, Improved Pact Weapon if you want to go ranged. Yes, you need to spend 2 bonus actions over 2 turns, first to enable your curse during the first round, then to enable Fighting Spirit for the second, but if get the jump on your enemy you can benefit from both Dread Ambusher and Assassinate during the 1st turn (might as well Action Surge then for the extra crits, am I right?), plus you are a bit more SAD as you can ignore Strength (especially if you start as a Hexblade), so I believe this is pretty potent.

    Is it as reliable as the Champion for sheer, continuous crit percentage? No, but it can slice and dice against bosses at least well enough to deserve a mention in this guide IMO.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Avigor View Post
    Needs a mention of the Samurai. Yes, it doesn't have a built-in increased crit range, but they can just decide they have advantage for their turn with a bonus action at level 3, and if they go to 15 they can convert the first advantaged attack into two normal attacks, which I believe gives them potentially the greatest sheer number of attacks in one round at level 20 out of anyone in 5e, especially if they have haste.

    I'd also suggest Samurai 11/Hexblade 3/Gloom Stalker 3/Assassin 3. Pact of the Blade for any melee weapon, Improved Pact Weapon if you want to go ranged. Yes, you need to spend 2 bonus actions over 2 turns, first to enable your curse during the first round, then to enable Fighting Spirit for the second, but if get the jump on your enemy you can benefit from both Dread Ambusher and Assassinate during the 1st turn (might as well Action Surge then for the extra crits, am I right?), plus you are a bit more SAD as you can ignore Strength (especially if you start as a Hexblade), so I believe this is pretty potent.

    Is it as reliable as the Champion for sheer, continuous crit percentage? No, but it can slice and dice against bosses at least well enough to deserve a mention in this guide IMO.
    I personally think the Barbarian dip is better for reliability due to Reckless attack, as it doesn't have a set number of uses as only 3 uses of the Samurai's ability that also costs a bonus action, just costs to much.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Aland islands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Avigor View Post
    Needs a mention of the Samurai. Yes, it doesn't have a built-in increased crit range, but they can just decide they have advantage for their turn with a bonus action at level 3, and if they go to 15 they can convert the first advantaged attack into two normal attacks, which I believe gives them potentially the greatest sheer number of attacks in one round at level 20 out of anyone in 5e, especially if they have haste.

    I'd also suggest Samurai 11/Hexblade 3/Gloom Stalker 3/Assassin 3. Pact of the Blade for any melee weapon, Improved Pact Weapon if you want to go ranged. Yes, you need to spend 2 bonus actions over 2 turns, first to enable your curse during the first round, then to enable Fighting Spirit for the second, but if get the jump on your enemy you can benefit from both Dread Ambusher and Assassinate during the 1st turn (might as well Action Surge then for the extra crits, am I right?), plus you are a bit more SAD as you can ignore Strength (especially if you start as a Hexblade), so I believe this is pretty potent.

    Is it as reliable as the Champion for sheer, continuous crit percentage? No, but it can slice and dice against bosses at least well enough to deserve a mention in this guide IMO.
    Echo knight 11, gloomstalker 3, hexblade 1 can have 5(10 if action surge)attacks with 19-20 crit range. :) question is in which order to take the levels. :)
    Last edited by Spacehamster; 2020-07-03 at 08:04 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Closed Account
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Elven Cleric of Trickery + Elven Accuracy + Invoke Duplicity means shortsword attacks, Inflict Wounds, and Spiritual Weapon get super advantage.

    At 4th level a critical hit with booth Inflict Wounds and Spiritual Weapon is going to wreck most creatures day. 40 average damage, assuming a 16 Wisdom, leaves a mark.

    A High Elf can get Booming Blade at level 1.
    Otherwise a multi-class for Shadow Blade is good for encounters when you have already used your Perfect Illusionary Double.

    Between Invoke Duplicity, Hold Person, and Shadow Blade, you have 3 encounters with near ensured Advantage, and this can come online way before the 20th level builds already posted.

    If you do not want to Multi-class asking to swap Pass Without Trace for Shadow Blade on the Trickery Domain spell list is a fair swap in my opinion.

    Makes one more Rogue-lite, and less Party Stealth Enabler.

    Pass w/o Trace is a great spell, so choosing betwixt it and Shadow Blade is a bit of a Sophie's Choice dilemma.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Grognardia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide

    Metamagic Mod: and yet time deals the cruelest crit of all.
    Tarot-Mage-atar by Cuthalion, long may they reign.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •