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    Default Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Thinking of an E6 world.
    People who can cast 2nd level spells are SPECIAL, even among spellcasters.
    Which means that those effects should be considerably rarer than 1st level spell effects.

    But is that necessary? There are a lot of 2nd level spells that, unless something important is in my blind spot, don't have to be 2nd level spells. 2nd level spells are invisibility, web, resist energy, flaming sphere, command undead, mirror image, hold person, soften earth and stone, touch of idiocy.

    Spell slots are valuable things, not spent lightly. (Assuming that Magic MArt is not a thing and casting spells costs precious spell slots, not plentiful GP). So would it be terrible if zone of truth, tree shape, gentle repose, status, magic mouth, shatter, darkvision, augury were dropped to 1st level spells?

    These all seem, narratively, like things a run-of-the-mill wizard or shaman SHOULD be able to do.

    I'm not sure if they're second level spells for historical reasons, because a lot of these spells have been 2nd or 3rd level spells since 1st edition, when Read Magic and Light and Dancing Lights were 1st level spells, or if they have to be second level spells because they should cost you SL2 * CL3 * 25 = 150gp for a scroll instead of only 25.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Part of the issue in my mind is that narrative magic defines the fantasy genre, so 3.5 made it widely available, but it is either useless or overpowered in game setting. E6 fixes the over powered part by removing a lot of narrative magic, but that cuts it from the game.

    I ended up implementing rituals for things like undead, constructs, magic castles, scrying, and other classic cases of narrative magic.
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Let's consider Animate Rope. I know it's a 1st level spell, but I wonder if it would be broken as a cantrip.

    It's action economy is punishing--move action to throw or place the rope, standard to cast, move action to give a command. And for all that, you get to entangle or trip an opponent, or to boost a Use Rope check. If the target fails a Reflex save, that is.

    Sure, there are Bards who run whip shenanigans that use Animate Rope. If they have it as a cantrip, I think that's okay actually--the action economy is still the same, and they get to do their highly situational trick more often.

    If we move away from magic mart, we start looking at whether spells are worth their level-ed slot. And I think a lot of them aren't.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Thinking of an E6 world.
    People who can cast 2nd level spells are SPECIAL, even among spellcasters.
    Which means that those effects should be considerably rarer than 1st level spell effects.

    But is that necessary? There are a lot of 2nd level spells that, unless something important is in my blind spot, don't have to be 2nd level spells. 2nd level spells are invisibility, web, resist energy, flaming sphere, command undead, mirror image, hold person, soften earth and stone, touch of idiocy.

    Spell slots are valuable things, not spent lightly. (Assuming that Magic MArt is not a thing and casting spells costs precious spell slots, not plentiful GP). So would it be terrible if zone of truth, tree shape, gentle repose, status, magic mouth, shatter, darkvision, augury were dropped to 1st level spells?

    These all seem, narratively, like things a run-of-the-mill wizard or shaman SHOULD be able to do.

    I'm not sure if they're second level spells for historical reasons, because a lot of these spells have been 2nd or 3rd level spells since 1st edition, when Read Magic and Light and Dancing Lights were 1st level spells, or if they have to be second level spells because they should cost you SL2 * CL3 * 25 = 150gp for a scroll instead of only 25.
    Well, are you sure E6 is what you want?

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Invisibility is a spell that can do half the job of a good thief. Hold person accomplishes something that for most dedicated spellcasters is really hard to do in a mundane manner. Many of the others are as or even more situational, but when the situation does arise they accomplish something pretty cool.

    If you want (slightly) stronger magic users the easiest thing to do is play E8...
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Well, are you sure E6 is what you want?
    I'm not ready to break completely from D&D, so yeah. What I like most about E6 is that it gives you a background world that makes sense--most people are never facing more than CR 1 challenges (at least not many), so you have exponentially fewer people at each level--50% 1st, 37.5% 2nd, about 10% 3rd, 2.5% 4+, if you're in a challenging environment (frontier or savage area, professionals with PC classes, expert smiths, etc). In a guild, 1st level is Apprentice Member, 2nd level Journeyman, 3rd level Guild Master. So while there may be a spellcaster in every village and a dozen in a good-sized town and hundreds or thousands in a metropolis, a 3rd or 4th level spellcaster is something special.

    So 2nd level spells should be something special. If a spell doesn't tell the townsfolk "Wow, our Twilight Sparkle is a good wizard, but this Great And Powerful Trixie is AMAZING"--it's not a second level spell.

    Likewise, if we have a 1st level spell that could be cast at-will without creating problems, why are we even requiring a spell slot? Make it a cantrip. You still know a limited number of cantrips, so taking Detect Evil/Good/Chaos/Law means you couldn't afford Touch of Fatigue or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Invisibility is a spell that can do half the job of a good thief. Hold person accomplishes something that for most dedicated spellcasters is really hard to do in a mundane manner. Many of the others are as or even more situational, but when the situation does arise they accomplish something pretty cool.

    If you want (slightly) stronger magic users the easiest thing to do is play E8...
    I'm not saying I want stronger magic. I'm saying that a lot of spells were leveled in previous editions, or in the early days of 3rd, when the idea of a "warlock" with free blasting EVERY ROUND would have been unthinkable. I'm saying that a 1st level NPC or PC caster with animal messenger as a 1st level spell and speak with animals at will is not unbalanced compared to a caster with charm animal as a 1st level spell and daze at will.

    It's a game of resource management, and I think that a lot of resources (mostly utility and situational magic) are overpriced by 2018 standards.

    I went ahead last night and made lists

    Cantrips
    Animate Rope
    Deathwatch
    Detect Animals or Plants
    Detect Evil/good/Law/Chaos
    Detect Undead
    Floating Disk
    Hide from Animals
    Hide from Undead
    Ventriloquism

    1st level spells
    Animal Messenger
    Animal Trance
    Darkvision
    Gentle Repose
    Magic Mouth (maybe even a cantrip?)
    Make Whole (but eliminate Mending cantrip)
    Shatter
    Shield Other
    Spectral Hand
    Status
    Tree Shape
    Undetectable Alignment
    Warp Wood
    Zone of Truth

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    So... you're saying that these spells aren't well-designed for playing the game in a way it was never meant to be played, and that they have too high levels in what's deliberately a lower-powered version of the game?

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    So... you're saying that these spells aren't well-designed for playing the game in a way it was never meant to be played, and that they have too high levels in what's deliberately a lower-powered version of the game?
    Exactly!!

    Seriously, this is part of it. A lot of these spells were written and placed as a 2 on a 0-9 power scale, or even as a 2 on a 1-7 for divine spells in 1st and 2nd edition.

    They don't always make sense as a "2" on a 0-3 scale. If we put mage hand and detect magic at 0, entangle and burning hands and expeditious retreat at 1, invisibility and detect thoughts at 2, and fireball, fly and dispel magic at 3.

    I'm not really criticizing the 3rd edition designers here. I may be doing what they did with the Cleric and Druid--making some options more attractive (healbots suck to play), that produces an unexpected result (CoDzilla). But if players end up wrecking my game by turning into trees and ventriloquism-ing all over the place and dragging a Tenser's Floating Disc around everywhere--that actually sounds like fun.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    I think you are doing it backwards. You begin with the spell and try to make it fit what you think you want, but that requires you to do a good bit of extrapolating and predicting the outcome. But most of the listed spells are situational, so you can't know when a tweak intended to increase utility will become, in one particular situation, overpowered.

    My recommendation is to discuss with your spellcaster players their reasons for selecting or rejecting specific spells and then attempt to tweak from there.

    Animated Rope, for example, is a highly valuable spell when mounted foes must charge through a limited space to attack the PCs. With one second level spell you can stop a cavalry charge, potentially dealing more HP in falling damage than a Level 3 Fireball. Does this kind of situation arise often enough to make the spell valueable? Your players will know.

    There is no such thing as balance. Like the Questing Beast, it has eluded the very best DMs grasp since Expert Edition was published. I can show you spoor if you like. However, your campaign will assume certain norms, and spells virtually useless in your campaign might prove overpowered in mine. The trick is to make the less appealing spells more appealing, whether by increasing the raw power of the spell, or by creating scenarios where such spells are more valuable.

    Animated Rope might be an invaluable spell for a party climbing a mountain or delving into a cave. Especially if minmaxers didn't bother with Climb skill during character creation. So, the prize the party seeks is in a monastery atop a mesa. That second level spell slot now assumes much greater utility.

    The purpose of magic is not to inflict damage like a fighter; that's why you have fighters. Video games have impacted this philosophy by 'balancing' the classes based on damage output. But D&D is not a video game. It is a form of collective storytelling in which drama and narrative become more important than the mechanics of the fight. A video game supplies the story and only leaves the fights to the player. A D&D game session can be played without a single fight happening and the players provide the story.

    So, resist the first impulse to balance things and instead run your game. You can always adjust later to decrease the desireability of overused spells and increase the desireability of underused ones. Sometimes simply by taking your players in directions they never imagined.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    So 2nd level spells should be something special. If a spell doesn't tell the townsfolk "Wow, our Twilight Sparkle is a good wizard, but this Great And Powerful Trixie is AMAZING"--it's not a second level spell.
    That's only one interpretation of E6 magic. It's equally as viable to say that in E6, no mortal magic is really that special. I think that's one approach that makes E6 appeal to a great number of people the way it does.
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Animated Rope, for example, is a highly valuable spell when mounted foes must charge through a limited space to attack the PCs. With one second level spell you can stop a cavalry charge, potentially dealing more HP in falling damage than a Level 3 Fireball.
    Except that, in the book, Animate Rope is a 1st level spell. I'm thinking of making it a cantrip. This makes my point that situational spells can be reduced in cost.

    The trick is to make the less appealing spells more appealing, whether by increasing the raw power of the spell, or by creating scenarios where such spells are more valuable.
    I think they also become more appealing if you lower their cost.

    Animated Rope might be an invaluable spell for a party climbing a mountain or delving into a cave. Especially if minmaxers didn't bother with Climb skill during character creation. So, the prize the party seeks is in a monastery atop a mesa. That second level spell slot now assumes much greater utility.
    1st level spell slot. And just about any spell in the book(s) has much greater utility in the right situation, with creative players, etc. That doesn't mean that it should cost a 1st level spell slot (or 25 gp for a scroll) or a 2nd level spell slot (or 150 gp for a scroll).

    You can always adjust later to decrease the desireability of overused spells and increase the desireability of underused ones. Sometimes simply by taking your players in directions they never imagined.
    I think all the spells I'm re-leveling are underused.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    That's only one interpretation of E6 magic. It's equally as viable to say that in E6, no mortal magic is really that special. I think that's one approach that makes E6 appeal to a great number of people the way it does.
    Obviously it's one interpretation. But I think it's fair to say that invisibility and silence and command undead are pretty special, even compared to other spells, and fly and fireball and suggestion are pretty special even compared to those.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Spell levels in D&D are weird because originally they were designed to cover six levels, with sixth level being the one where all the spells went that one would consider "ultimate magical power". Then the six were expanded to nine, but the already existing spells retained their original level. And we've had two different scales existing simultaneously in the same spell lists ever since.
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Making certain spells a level lower will only change the competition to a level lower. As for the earlier example of a horse charging the party: Sure, animate rope would do great, but so would grease, and grease would still be picked more than animate rope (since it has more uses).
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    I think you could easily make more spell levels and give 1 per level. Reducing the power means you have more room to nuance the differences.

    Cantrip: Add Magic Aura, Erase, Hold Portal
    1: Same with removal of those moved to cantrip or 2.
    2: Grease, Charm Person, Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, etc.
    3: The moderately good level 2 spells.
    4: Best level 2, worst level 3
    5: moderate level 3
    6: best level 3
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    I think a fair number of spells are mis-leveled in general, in keeping with 3.5's established assortment of balance problems. I don't think it would be a big deal to keep a running tally of what spells you've changed the level for, and frankly I like it a lot more than giving players access to a whole 'nother level of spells.
    I can't find it at the moment, but I recall one E6 description where the author highlighted a few of the big 4th-level spells that would have major game impacts if allowed.

    Also, keep in mind that magic effects above 3rd level aren't outlawed in E6 games, they just take more effort. Powerful magic artifacts can exist, the players just can't manufacture most of them, and the Unearthed Aracana magic-ritual rules can be in play.
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I think a fair number of spells are mis-leveled in general, in keeping with 3.5's established assortment of balance problems. I don't think it would be a big deal to keep a running tally of what spells you've changed the level for, and frankly I like it a lot more than giving players access to a whole 'nother level of spells.
    The number has gotten fairly substantial. I'll edit the list in later.



    I can't find it at the moment, but I recall one E6 description where the author highlighted a few of the big 4th-level spells that would have major game impacts if allowed.

    Also, keep in mind that magic effects above 3rd level aren't outlawed in E6 games, they just take more effort. Powerful magic artifacts can exist, the players just can't manufacture most of them, and the Unearthed Aracana magic-ritual rules can be in play.
    I wasn't really thinking in terms of higher-level spells (4+), although I could probably find some that could be safely re-levelled. I'm thinking in terms of 2nd and 3rd level spells that, in a coherent E6 fantasy setting, you could see a junior spellcaster doing, that wouldn't wreak havoc with the campaign world. Augury? Zone of Truth? Tree Shape? There's no reason those shouldn't be first-level options. And there are some spells that are so situational that there's no good reason you can't cast them at-will.

    TLDR: Casters with access to second-level spells are pretty rare. Should that mean that (large list of second-level spells that should be in a low-level, high-magic world shouldn't be there? No. Re-level the spell.

    I have some higher-level effects (teleport, bring back the dead) that are okay at 3rd level, with enough limitations. (Teleport--back to the very expensive room where the talisman was created. Bring back the dead, who then have to make saves every day or suffer ability drain until they hit 0 again and die for good.)

    This all assumes that you in fact have limited spells and cantrips known, and limited spell slots--that you can't just load up a heward's haversack with scrolls of half the SRD and a bunch of wands. I'm playing with the idea that you get 2-3 Spells Known per caster level that you cast spontaneously, 2-3 cantrips that you can cast at-will, and a "safety valve" process for casting the rest of your spell list.

    ("Safety valve" process pending approval under Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use)

    Something like the UA incantations rules are in effect, but that's mostly for nation-building projects. Things where, in religious-patriotic rituals, everyone contributes a little bit of "narrativium" to create public goods. Imagine putting a dollar in a collection plate every time you said the Pledge of Allegiance or stood for the national anthem, and using that money/narrativium to power magical effects. (A major town would have enough energy to create a Sword of Dragonslaying. A kingdom would have enough energy to create a magical barrier that prevents dragons from crossing into the kingdom.)

    But that's getting off topic for this particular thread.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I wasn't really thinking in terms of higher-level spells (4+), although I could probably find some that could be safely re-levelled. I'm thinking in terms of 2nd and 3rd level spells that, in a coherent E6 fantasy setting, you could see a junior spellcaster doing, that wouldn't wreak havoc with the campaign world. Augury? Zone of Truth? Tree Shape? There's no reason those shouldn't be first-level options. And there are some spells that are so situational that there's no good reason you can't cast them at-will.
    Mostly I agree with you, though I'd be careful about anything enchantment related- of all the spell schools, I think that's one of the ones with the most potential for getting out of hand quickly and unexpectedly. I feel like Zone of Truth could kill a lot of narrative roleplay for much the same reasons as the Detect Evil ability.


    TLDR: Casters with access to second-level spells are pretty rare. Should that mean that (large list of second-level spells that should be in a low-level, high-magic world shouldn't be there? No. Re-level the spell.
    E6 was designed to tell a different kind of story- the mechanical changes are almost secondary IMO. To be honest, I'm not normally a fan of E6 because that's not the normally the story I want to tell. If you're having trouble making E6 align with your vision, maybe figure out what kind of story you want your players to experience first, and make sure it matches up. E6 isn't always objectively better for every group and every campaign any more than D&D Standard is.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2018-02-24 at 10:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Mostly I agree with you, though I'd be careful about anything enchantment related- of all the spell schools, I think that's one of the ones with the most potential for getting out of hand quickly and unexpectedly. I feel like Zone of Truth could kill a lot of narrative roleplay for much the same reasons as the Detect Evil ability.
    Zone of truth is much less powerful than the name implies. It's a Will save, and all it does is prevent you from actively lying--there are a ton of roleplaying ways to get around that.

    E6 was designed to tell a different kind of story- the mechanical changes are almost secondary IMO. To be honest, I'm not normally a fan of E6 because that's not the normally the story I want to tell. If you're having trouble making E6 align with your vision, maybe figure out what kind of story you want your players to experience first, and make sure it matches up. E6 isn't always objectively better for every group and every campaign any more than D&D Standard is.
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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    I definitely agree there is no hard reason that non combat spells are at the level their at, you just need to decide what magic in your setting is good at.

    A simple example flight is far more common in a superhero settings than your typical sword and sorcery setting

    generally when I am designing games I look and if their is a power everyone regardless of character concept is taking its probably to strong and if a power never gets taken its probably to weak.

    I imagine it would not be hard to find a lot of d&d spells that are clearly unequal in utility, as many choices are simply Superior to others
    Last edited by awa; 2018-02-26 at 09:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    So... you're saying that these spells aren't well-designed for playing the game in a way it was never meant to be played, and that they have too high levels in what's deliberately a lower-powered version of the game?
    This, more than what Awa said.

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    I definitely agree there is no hard reason that non combat spells are at the level their at, you just need to decide what magic in your setting is good at.

    A simple example flight is far more common in a superhero settings than your typical sword and sorcery setting

    generally when I am designing games I look and if their is a power everyone regardless of character concept is taking its probably to strong and if a power never gets taken its probably to weak.

    I imagine it would not be hard to find a lot of d&d spells that are clearly unequal in utility, as many choices are simply Superior to others
    I'm comfortable with power levels defined by flight/fireball/haste, by invisibility/glitterdust/mirror image/flaming sphere/web, by cure light wounds/expeditious retreat/feather fall/protection from evil. I don't want everybody flying around in E6. I *do* want low-level spellcasters getting creative with tree shape and animal messenger and quench. And I'm willing to run a fire sale on things like Hide From Animals, Hide From Undead, Longstrider, Deathwatch, making them one of your cantrip options. (You wouldn't get all the cantrips automatically though.)

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    I don't know, Shatter as a 1st level means you can easily break every weapon as a spell (since few magic weapons).

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    Default Re: Thinking E6. Are a LOT of SRD spells over-leveled? Am I being an idiot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    I don't know, Shatter as a 1st level means you can easily break every weapon as a spell (since few magic weapons).
    Using a 1st level spell to sunder a single nonmagical weapon doesn't seem overpowered. At high E6 levels, it would also work against a suit of armor, which might be more effective since now you've got the entangled condition for the rest of the fight.

    That's not bad because it's overpowered, it's bad because it's irritating--the player loses a very expensive item (hundreds of gold pieces, at a level where you don't have thousands of gold pieces) and can't really replace it during the adventure. Which creates a disadvantage for fighter-types that spellcasters don't have to worry about, and that sneaky types don't have to worry about much (their armor is much cheaper, losing it doesn't hurt them as much, and they're less likely to be targeted.)So it's a tactic that harms PCs much more than NPCs (NPCs usually don't have to worry about the next fight), and harms full-BAB types more than others.

    Does this really get worse when the spell is 1st level? Or is this a problem that is usually contained because there's a narrow band of levels where A) second level spells are in play and B) non-magical armor is still relevant.

    Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

    Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

    Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

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