Improving Monsters

[Kajorma]

Technical question again...

My DM and I have been discussing how you go about advancing monsters. In this case we are talking about Gnolls and Goblins.

Now, I'm going to do my best to not insert judgements here, just questions.

Let's say we have a Gnoll with 3 levels of warrior, a Gnoll with 3 levels of fighter, a Goblin with 3 levels of warrior, and a Goblin with 3 levels of Fighter. What are the CRs for these monsters, and why?

Essentially, I want some interpretations of the Advanced Monster challenge Rating section. I'll include the bit from the SRD that I think it relevant:

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Kajorma]

Oh, I meant to add the CRs that those races start with...

A Gnoll has a CR of 1, and a "Goblin, 1st-Level Warrior" has a CR of 1/3

I also didn't include the part of the rules that said associated classes increase the CR by 1 per level.

[blue_fenix]

Let's say we have a Gnoll with 3 levels of warrior, a Gnoll with 3 levels of fighter, a Goblin with 3 levels of warrior, and a Goblin with 3 levels of Fighter. What are the CRs for these monsters, and why?

Gnoll:
CR 1 base
3 levels of Warrior (non-associated because NPC) adds 1.5
Total: 2.5
OR
3 levels of Fighter (associated) adds 3
Total: 4

Goblin:
CR 1/3 base
2 levels of Warrior (non-associated because NPC, only 2 because it already has 1) adds 1
Total: 1.333333...
OR
3 levels of Fighter (associated) adds 3, remove the 1 level of warrior.
Total: 3
OR
3 levels of Fighter (associated) adds 3, keep the 1 level of warrior
Total: 3.3333333...

Of course, CR's are always open to fudging, but based purely on SRD rules that's how I would calculate it.

[The Mormegil]

CR system sucks.

I am running a campaign where a whole palace full of 4th level fighter guards + warblade lvl 16/Queen's knight (homebrewed PrC) 1 with a major artifact + Illusionist 15 + GESTALT Warblade 11/Bloodclaw master 5//Fighter 4/Paladin of slaughter 1/Ghost-Faced Killer 10/Queen's knight 1 + an invulnerable THING that make a +12d6 sneak attack and goes ethereal practically at will without having any actual class level makes a good challange for my PCs only if they are pressed, caught unaware and splitted into groups... I gave them a CR 20 for that all.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Gnoll:
CR 1 base
3 levels of Warrior (non-associated because NPC) adds 1.5
Total: 2.5
OR
3 levels of Fighter (associated) adds 3
Total: 4

Goblin:
CR 1/3 base
2 levels of Warrior (non-associated because NPC, only 2 because it already has 1) adds 1
Total: 1.333333...
OR
3 levels of Fighter (associated) adds 3, remove the 1 level of warrior.
Total: 3
OR
3 levels of Fighter (associated) adds 3, keep the 1 level of warrior
Total: 3.3333333...

Of course, CR's are always open to fudging, but based purely on SRD rules that's how I would calculate it.

Problem with the goblin is that he (like the Kobold and other 'Humanoid' creatures with no Racial Hit Dice) has special CR rules for NPC classes (due to the NPC class being weaker than PC classes):

Challenge Rating: Goblins with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level –2.

So a goblin with 3 levels of Warrior (Character level 3) has a CR of 1. With 3 levels of fighter on top of that, he's a CR 4.

As for the gnoll, keep in mind that

Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice.

So a gnoll has 2 racial hit dice, so he can have 2 NPC class levels at .5 CR each before he catches up. So a gnoll with 3 levels of warrior has a CR of 3:
Gnoll (includes 2 racial hit dice): 1 CR
+ 1 CR (2 levels of warrior at 1/2 CR each - but his character level now equals his racial level, so NPC classes are no longer non-associated)
+1 CR (3rd level of warrior. Gnolls are brawlers, so warrior is considered 'associated' now)
That totals 3 CR.

Add 3 fighter levels, and it's a CR 6 creature.

[AslanCross]

Always feel free to bump the CR up or down as you see fit. Even the Monster Manual says that CRs aren't an exact science.

In my campaign I have an encounter where 3 6th level fighters "educate" the PCs in the finer points of D&D special attacks (Trip and Disarm). Just because they're using the spiked chain trip build, I bumped up the CR by one.

...Mormegil, are you sure you calculated that right? I'm pretty sure I'd give an invulnerable thing that could go ethereal at will with a 12d6 sneak a much higher CR.

In my campaign I have a Death Knight Fighter 1/Warblade 17/Blackguard 2 (CR 23).
The BBEG is a Half-Fiend Ogre-Mage Warlock 13/Blackguard 7 (CR 25, I used the retrofitted CR 5 Ogre Mage from Wizards, and considered Warlock as a non-associated class and Blackguard as associated.)

[Kajorma]

Problem with the goblin is that he (like the Kobold and other 'Humanoid' creatures with no Racial Hit Dice) has special CR rules for NPC classes (due to the NPC class being weaker than PC classes):

Thanks Spike, I didn't see that rule.

I think you misunderstand me though. I meant that as 4 monsters.

1. Goblin Fighter
2. Goblin Warrior
3. Gnoll Fighter
4. Gnoll Warrior

However, you hit on the question here:

So a gnoll has 2 racial hit dice, so he can have 2 NPC class levels at .5 CR each before he catches up. So a gnoll with 3 levels of warrior has a CR of 3:
Gnoll (includes 2 racial hit dice): 1 CR
+ 1 CR (2 levels of warrior at 1/2 CR each - but his character level now equals his racial level, so NPC classes are no longer non-associated)
+1 CR (3rd level of warrior. Gnolls are brawlers, so warrior is considered 'associated' now)
That totals 3 CR.

Do NPC levels become associated after you exceed the racial hit die?

The paragraph on associated levels seems to indicate so, but the last line says "always", which makes me wonder.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

NPC levels are always non-associated, no matter how many you have compared to your racial HD.

[Ulzgoroth]

Unless you're getting your CR as an NPC instead of as an advanced monster... A level 18 human warrior is CR 17. A level 18 gnoll warrior is CR 10, though?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Well, it is not like a level 18 Goblin Warrior is a CR 16 challenge either.

Things break down rapidly when you start adding class levels, associated or not.

[loserthree]

Well, it is not like a level 18 Goblin Warrior is a CR 16 challenge either.

Things break down rapidly when you start adding class levels, associated or not.

I do not understand this.

Would the CR for a goblin with eight levels in Expert be 8, 6, or 4?

More significantly, would the CR for a goblin with four levels in Warrior be the same as the CR for a goblin with four levels in Fighter?

And then there's the whole "can't I just add humanoid hit dice at four-per-level of CR?" line of trouble. . .

[The_Snark]

Unless you're getting your CR as an NPC instead of as an advanced monster... A level 18 human warrior is CR 17. A level 18 gnoll warrior is CR 10, though?

Non-associated class levels become associated once they have as many levels in the class as they do racial HD. Which, actually, works out perfectly with the NPC CR rules (given that humanoids have 1 HD, even if they do drop it for class levels).

A level 18 gnoll warrior is CR 18. Supposedly, anyway. The point is that it's higher-CR than the level 18 human warrior.

But like Silvanos said, things break down when you add lots of class levels.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I do not understand this.

By that I mean that the CR is 16, but it is not an accurate measure of the difficulty of the challenge.

Would the CR for a goblin with eight levels in Expert be 8, 6, or 4?

6. As quoted above you take NPC levels - 2 for Goblins to get the CR.

More significantly, would the CR for a goblin with four levels in Warrior be the same as the CR for a goblin with four levels in Fighter?

Goblin Warrior 4 is only CR 2.
Goblin Fighter 4 is CR 4.

And then there's the whole "can't I just add humanoid hit dice at four-per-level of CR?" line of trouble. . .

Only to creatures that can be advanced using racial HD. Goblins advance by class level and not racial HD.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I do not understand this.

Would the CR for a goblin with eight levels in Expert be 8, 6, or 4?

More significantly, would the CR for a goblin with four levels in Warrior be the same as the CR for a goblin with four levels in Fighter?

And then there's the whole "can't I just add humanoid hit dice at four-per-level of CR?" line of trouble. . .

For gobbos and kobolds, you can get the best bang for your buck by giving them enough NPC class levels to get their CRs to 1, then giving them class levels. A kobold warrior 4/Fighter 2 is the same CR as a kobold fighter 3, but the average stats are (using the base stats from the MM):
Warrior 4/Fighter 2: avg. HP: 29, BaB: +6 (2 attacks on a full attack), 5 feats, +1 stat boost

Fighter 3: avg HP: 16, BaB: +3, 4 feats

And both have the same CR (CR = 3)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

For gobbos and kobolds, you can get the best bang for your buck by giving them enough NPC class levels to get their CRs to 1, then giving them class levels. A kobold warrior 4/Fighter 2 is the same CR as a kobold fighter 3, but the average stats are (using the base stats from the MM):
Warrior 4/Fighter 2: avg. HP: 29, BaB: +6 (2 attacks on a full attack), 5 feats, +1 stat boost

Fighter 3: avg HP: 16, BaB: +3, 4 feats

And both have the same CR (CR = 3)

Fighter is not an associated class for Kobolds either.

A Kobold fighter 3 is probably closer to CR 2.5.

[loserthree]

For gobbos and kobolds, you can get the best bang for your buck by giving them enough NPC class levels to get their CRs to 1, then giving them class levels.

Wait . . .

You can mix NPC and PC levels in the same Monster and still be kosher?

And the following quote,

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

actually means that NPC levels are always treated as nonassociated until they become associated?!?!

That could have been put more clearly, but the product still beats the hell out of other systems for clarity. <cough, cough>White Wolf<cough, cough>

[The Mormegil]

[/quote]...Mormegil, are you sure you calculated that right? I'm pretty sure I'd give an invulnerable thing that could go ethereal at will with a 12d6 sneak a much higher CR.[\quote]


No I did not, but since they got out alive (did I mention they were ECL 12-15?) I thought I should give them a little award...

No, I'm not joking. I AM serious. And ultimately, I think a CR 20 was fair enough. They did not win (they weren't even supposed to), but the invulnerable thing got destroyed in a very spectacular fashion involving some kind of god of destruction and the guy with the artifact didn't get away that easily. If it weren't for the Paladin of Slaughter and the wizard, he would have been killed. And they all got away alive. Well, except a pair of friendly NPCs.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Wait . . .

You can mix NPC and PC levels in the same Monster and still be kosher?

I don't see why not. The kobold may have spent some years as a simple guard for his community, but took on a more intense martial training regime after he was selected to become an elite combatant.

And the following quote,actually means that NPC levels are always treated as nonassociated until they become associated?!?!

That could have been put more clearly, but the product still beats the hell out of other systems for clarity. <cough, cough>White Wolf<cough, cough>

This, I'm not sure about. Lord Silvanos made the comment that NPC classes are always non-associated, regardless of level. Though the specific rules for kobolds and goblins with NPC levels seem to go against the grain by making a weaker than average creature (a kobold level 20 warrior is NOT a CR 17 encounter). I tend to avoid NPC classes, except in the case of some humanoids (like kobolds and goblins, the former needs huge boost to have a semi-balanced CR).

[JackMage666]

I don't really even like adding PC or NPC levels to monsters who are random encounters. Seems like alot of work just for a random encounter. Boss-type enemies, yeah, but the generical Kobold Rogue 3 in the dungeon? That's no fun doing that for every other room.

I just look for either pre-made monster's with class levels (yes, I use the MM4&5 for this), or just go with creatures with CRs the right value.

Saves me so much time.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I don't really even like adding PC or NPC levels to monsters who are random encounters. Seems like alot of work just for a random encounter. Boss-type enemies, yeah, but the generical Kobold Rogue 3 in the dungeon? That's no fun doing that for every other room.

I just look for either pre-made monster's with class levels (yes, I use the MM4&5 for this), or just go with creatures with CRs the right value.

Saves me so much time.

I do the same thing. If I stat out a group of monsters with class levels, it's never on the fly. It's always going to be something planned. Something like a hunting party or elite guard will usually have some class levels.

I know alot of people hate it, but I like using the MM 4/5 monsters with pre-genned stats/class levels.

[loserthree]

Wait . . .

You can mix NPC and PC levels in the same Monster and still be kosher?

I don't see why not. The kobold may have spent some years as a simple guard for his community, but took on a more intense martial training regime after he was selected to become an elite combatant.

I hope to see this from the floating-angry-face-with-a-hat.

Strictly speaking, a Gnoll with 8 levels in Adept would seem have a CR of 5. Now, would that include his Familiar for which we have given him the Improved Familliar Feat to obtain an Imp?

A Minotaur with 6 levels of Monk would seem to have a CR of 7. This likely should qualify as "Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness" so perhaps we should raise the CR to 9. Does that seem right to you, or has it already broken down?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

This, I'm not sure about. Lord Silvanos made the comment that NPC classes are always non-associated, regardless of level. Though the specific rules for kobolds and goblins with NPC levels seem to go against the grain by making a weaker than average creature (a kobold level 20 warrior is NOT a CR 17 encounter). I tend to avoid NPC classes, except in the case of some humanoids (like kobolds and goblins, the former needs huge boost to have a semi-balanced CR).

The special rule for Kobolds and Goblins work at low levels; that is until the special rule starts producing a CR higher than (NPC level)/2.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I hope to see this from the floating-angry-face-with-a-hat.

Strictly speaking, a Gnoll with 8 levels in Adept would seem have a CR of 5. Now, would that include his Familiar for which we have given him the Improved Familliar Feat to obtain an Imp?

A Minotaur with 6 levels of Monk would seem to have a CR of 7. This likely should qualify as "Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness" so perhaps we should raise the CR to 9. Does that seem right to you, or has it already broken down?

The problem with monsters is that there's not list of associated/un-associated classes. It's DM discretion.

In your examples, a minotaur's 'role' is melee combatant. When it boils down to it, the monk's role is basically the same. As such, I'd put monk levels as associated.

As for the 'Monster possesses special attack or etc....', that's listed there only if you just up and give the monster an ability (NOT counting abilities from class levels). For the minotaur in question, if you decided to make it 'dragon-like', and give it wings and a breath weapon, the would could as a minor special ability increase (a power suite that provides a boost to its powers).

This is covered in:

If the special abilities a monster gains are not tied to a class or Hit Die increase, this CR increase stacks.

So a CR increase from a class ability doesn't stack with the CR increase from just adding class levels.

The special rule for Kobolds and Goblins work at low levels; that is until the special rule starts producing a CR higher than (NPC level)/2.

I'd agree with that.

[loserthree]

The problem with monsters is that there's not list of associated/un-associated classes. It's DM discretion.

In your examples, a minotaur's 'role' is melee combatant. When it boils down to it, the monk's role is basically the same. As such, I'd put monk levels as associated.

You'd think so, but then I find the following,

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

which seems pretty specific.

[SpikeFightwicky]

You'd think so, but then I find the following,which seems pretty specific.

Oh yeah, now I remember why I hated weird monster combinations.... Maybe the monk's 'secondary combatant' role makes it a completely non-associated class? Even still, the monk/minotaur does not make a good challenge.

A CR 7 for a minotaur with 6 levels of monk doesn't seem right at all... Taking a regular minotaur (his stats should be 25 point buy, but I'll keep it simple):

Hit Dice: 6d8+18 + 6d8+18 (90 HP)
BaB: +10
AC: 15
Full Attack: Flurry +13/+13 (2d6+5) and gore +8 (1d8+2)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +10 (Saves got a good boost)

Looks like an ettin with less power and AC, but 25 more HP. Definately not CR 7.

[loserthree]

I do not want to get sidetracked here, but I just have to say a few things about that dang minotaur monk.

First, the monster is getting special attention and should be switched from the Standard Array to the Non-Elite Array (since the Elite Array would add to CR, needlessly complicating the discussion) and have 3 additional Ability points for its 12 hit dice. We'll say it's at Str 22, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 6.

AC 16 (10 + 1(Monk AC at level 6) + 5(Natural Armor) + 1(Dex) -1(Size))

Yeah, he's just begging to be hit with Power Attack

Base Speed 50'
BaB of +10/+5
Powerful Charge (4d6+9)

Starts the party off, or closes with anything within 100'

Flurry +15/+15/+10 (2d6+6) Gore +11 (1d8+3)
Improved Trip (Trip modifier +14)

allows the monster to knock down 3 targets (tripping flurry)

Combat Reflexes

and potentially hit them five times per round for that 2d6+6 (once on each hit-after-trip, two on Attacks of Opportunity when they try to get up)

Improved Grapple (Grapple modifier +24)

When concentrating on a single opponent the Minotaur Monk may Grapple as a 1 attack out of the Flurry and do successive 2d6+6 as long as necessary without that opponent have much chance at all to retaliate.

Then there are 5 more Feats to be added, still.

Putting all 5 into Improved Natural Armor increases AC to a respectable 21.
But putting just one of those in Improved Natural Weapon increases Monk Unarmed Attack to 3d6+6 (remember how he's using that while grappling).

Reach 10'
Cannot be caught Flat-Footed
Scent

can find and hit you when he cannot see you

Does that still sound like CR 7 is too high?

[SpikeFightwicky]

...snip...

Just a few corrections:

It only gets 2 stat boosts.

monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

His attack bonuses are off:
BaB: +10 + 6 Str - 1 'flurry' - 1 size = +14
Gore, as a secondary attack at -5 is: +10 + 6 Str - 1 Size - 5 'secondary' = +10

He only gets 2 AoOs a round (1 standard +1 from Combat Reflexes)

As for the monster, alright, he has decent stats. As I've said, though, (since I'd be DMing if I used this creature) I'd put the monk as an associated class for a 'fighting' creature (and if you don't think that all these combat abilities improve its combat ability, then, I guess the point is moot anyways). Common sense would dictate that it's apparently more than a CR 7.

That aside, I still wouldn't use this monster against my players. It's in the category of 'not fun to fight'. If it doesn't use its trip ability, it's not going to pose as much a threat. If it uses its trip ability, then it's going to be a long pointless battle geared towards screwing over the party. Doesn't sound very fun to me, and I can guarantee my player's wouldn't find it any fun.

[loserthree]

Great. With that out of the way, I still have a question.

A Gnoll with 8 levels in Adept would seem have a CR of 5. Now, would that include his Familiar for which we have given him the Improved Familliar Feat to obtain an Imp?

[SpikeFightwicky]

That's a bit trickier a question.... According to the official 3.5 FAQ:

As a general rule, any creature whose presence on the
battlefield is a direct result of another creature using one of its
special abilities (such as summoning) during the battle doesn’t
grant XP to characters defeating it.

However, it's not always as easy as that, by the examples they give:

Spoiler

Show

However, there are plenty of situations where a DM should
make exceptions to this general rule. Any time that a creature
can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it
otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you
should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally.
Let’s look at a few examples to see how this might work in
play.
Example 1: Over the course of many days, a powerful
necromancer stocks his lair with undead created via spells.
When the PCs fight the necromancer and these undead
minions, the necromancer has his full array of spells, so the act
of creating these undead hasn’t reduced the challenge he
provides. Thus, the Sage recommends awarding full XP for
defeating the undead.
Example 2: The same necromancer is on the run, knowing
the PCs aren’t far behind. He spends some of his precious daily
allotment of spells to animate a few zombies, only minutes
before the PCs bust down his door and attack. That’s a lot more
like summoning, since the creation of the undead represents a
direct drain on the necromancer’s immediately available
resources. Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat
casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same. The Sage
recommends awarding one-half XP for defeating the undead.
Example 3: An evil cleric uses lesser planar ally to call a
succubus to serve him as a spy for 7 days, and sends her up
against the PCs (without being present himself). The Sage
recommends awarding full XP for defeating the succubus. If
the PCs then track down and defeat the evil cleric before he’s
able to prepare spells again, it’s tempting to reduce the XP
award for the cleric by a little bit (since he’s down one 4thlevel
spell), but it’s probably not worth the effort.
When in doubt, err on the side of awarding XP. The DM
shouldn’t be looking for opportunities to deny the PCs fairly
earned XP—if they bested the challenge, they should reap the
reward.

As such, there's no easy answer. Here's some other stuff:
- The adept familiar is part of the class feature, and is thus considered 'part' of the adept CR.
- The adept needs to expend a feat to get improved familiar, so that's more of a balancing factor (though it's hard to tell if taking another feat would be the equivalent power of bumping up the familiar to imp status).

If you are going to give XP for it (which WotC seems to think the decision rests with you), maybe give 75%/50% of the full XP for it (since the wizard did have to expend a feat for it).

That's my 2 cents.

[loserthree]

If it doesn't use its trip ability, it's not going to pose as much a threat. If it uses its trip ability, then it's going to be a long pointless battle geared towards screwing over the party. Doesn't sound very fun to me, and I can guarantee my player's wouldn't find it any fun.

One of my players, reading this thread, has suggested that your players are -- well it comes down to the fact that we're playing different games. It's not the game, it's the game you play with it.

Anyway, written above, someone or several somone suggested that humans gain 1 CR for each NPC level they take. Is this true and where can I find that rule?

To be clear, it is onlyGoblins, Kobolds and any other race that specifically says so in their description (I can't find others.) are the only monsters (of those which advance by class) that do not gain 1/2 CR for each NPC level. Is that correct?