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  1. - Top - End - #661
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    How does Manyshot help with DR? Each arrow does 2d6 + 5 before anything else, and each one gets DR tagged separately, so you do 7-17 damage before DR with each arrow. DR 5 cuts that to 2-12 and DR 10 cuts that to 0-7. Manyshot just lets an archer full attack as a standard action while hitting their first attacks with a penalty, and boosting their later attacks. And I'm not sure if Manyshot even works with symmetrical archery.
    My bad. I thought it added the damage of both arrows as one attack. Must have read that wrong been a while since I've read the 3.5 version of the feat.

    Also I am fairly certain Manyshot WOULD work with Symmetrical Archery. It explicitly says that any time the Arrow Demon makes an attack (be it standard action or full round) he matches the attacks with a second bow but suffer -2 to all attacks that round. Manyshot just lets you fire multiple arrows when you make a standard action attack.

    Either Way Symmetrical Archery + Manyshot should let the arrow daemon do effectively two full attacks as a standard action if he doesn't mind suffering -6 to hit.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Leaning to +0, caveat that by level 23 or so he's likely -0. I'm assuming well built T3 beatsticks with utility and some good enemy debuff abilities. (skilled ToB builds, mainly) A party made of incantatrix/planar shepherds obviously -0.

    He has some interesting free action tricks, all of which can be shut down by anything immune mind-affecting, which is becoming very common. He can't quicken greater teleport, but at caster level 20 he can quicken greater dispel magic (again at 20) 3/day, which is a handy opener as a swift action. For just one of his precious feats.

    I honestly think he does well enough in his niche at levels 18-19. By early epic he looks to be in a very bad place, though. His spell-likes are caster level 20, meaning without a generous and kind DM, they won't scale ever again. And presumably initiators are discussing epic maneuvers/epic maneuver progression with the DM, this demon should likely just reroll.

  3. - Top - End - #663
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    I honestly think he does well enough in his niche at levels 18-19. By early epic he looks to be in a very bad place, though.
    I think that's fair. For a monster, having all its abilities set, it's a surprisingly complete package, even featuring a ninth-level spell. I would say, however, that the particular niche (mind-affecting suckitude) has an inherent drawback, and this monster deserves LA -0 as a result. I don't think there'd be any problem with an extra class level on top of these 18 RHD.

    @Mind arrow/symmetrical archery: An arrow demon can dual-wield bows specifically. Mind arrows are fired as if from a bow, but not fired from a bow. If they were fired from an actual bow, there'd be no need to tell us they behave as if fired, now, would there? Hence, arrow demons cannot dual-wield mind arrows anymore than they can dual-wield javelins.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Sounds reasonable.

    So what is a good comparison point?
    Well, I don't have access to its stat block other than the above, but I'd agree that it sounds like a hexblade or other partial-casting martial character.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    My bad. I thought it added the damage of both arrows as one attack. Must have read that wrong been a while since I've read the 3.5 version of the feat.

    Also I am fairly certain Manyshot WOULD work with Symmetrical Archery. It explicitly says that any time the Arrow Demon makes an attack (be it standard action or full round) he matches the attacks with a second bow but suffer -2 to all attacks that round. Manyshot just lets you fire multiple arrows when you make a standard action attack.

    Either Way Symmetrical Archery + Manyshot should let the arrow daemon do effectively two full attacks as a standard action if he doesn't mind suffering -6 to hit.
    Symmetrical archery says that an arrow demon making a single attack can attack with both bows, not that they repeat the same attack with the other bow. Presumably this means that they split up the manyshot attack between both bows.

    Hm, not sure if we should keep discussing this though with a new monster out for discussion.
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  6. - Top - End - #666
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Demon, Sorrowsworn

    Ya the comparison point seems to be a hexblade, this is likely to be a better melee beatstick than the hexblade but its other features are going to be shut down quite often at these levels. So while it is an alright beatstick with lack of customization that is also all it can be outside of the few encounters where the enemy doesn't have protection. I dislike the argument that this thing is -0 at ~23+ isn't everything that doesn't abuse epic spell casting a -0 at those levels? On the plus side it isn't a one trick pony that is completely useless when its mind mojo gets shutdown so I don't think it is -0 any more than most of your tier 4 & 5 classes are a LA -0. As such I am going with +0 LA.

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    Symmetrical archery says that an arrow demon making a single attack can attack with both bows, not that they repeat the same attack with the other bow. Presumably this means that they split up the manyshot attack between both bows.
    I don't know how you could to get that assumption from the description of Symmetrical archery combined with the stat block. They are clearly stating that anytime you would normally get a single attack you instead get two attacks. So each iterative attack is doubled, many shot is doubled, and so is rapid shot. The only real issue I can see is if you have one bow with the speed enhancement and one without it you should technically get two shots from that enhancement instead of one which seems like an issue.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I can't see the sorrowsworn being so crazy that it needs to be penalized relative to a level 19 "normal" build. I'd take it over a level 19 Monk, but the phrase "damning with faint praise" comes to mind here.

    Part of the problem is that there is basically no class they can take that will matter after 18 RHD. Even the typical "eh, just slap on a martial adept" response is a little bit weaksauce with that many lost IL. Maybe Battle Dancer for a quick boost to AC?

    I mean, I can't say that the demon's tricks are worthless. They very much are not. Free action save-or-lose abilities usable at will? That's awesome, even if the mind-affecting nature is a gigantic mark against them. That and the raw numbers make them at least not embarrassing, especially compared to other high-HD things. But I'm not convinced that we need a positive LA.

    I just don't see a level adjustment being necessary. Why are we holding this thing back from gaining more than one class level pre-Epic (all bets are off once Epic hits)? I mean, the difference between 1 class level and 2 class levels is relatively trivial in this specific context when so much of the "build" is already going to be accounted for, and while the sorrowsworn has enough tricks that I don't think a -0 is needed, I also don't think that it needs to be penalized more than it already is with 18 of its HD already locked in place.

    Or, put another way, if we're letting this thing into the party at all, I don't think that it needs to be held back. A super unoptimized party might find this thing to be overwhelming relative to them, but in that case, I don't think that keeping one level away from it will solve that problem. That ends up with a fundamental difference of kind rather than degree, and it's not a problem that LA can directly fix (short of WotC's old "just make the LA so prohibitively high that it's effectively a soft ban" approach, which we've rejected as problematic).
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  8. - Top - End - #668
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    I don't know how you could to get that assumption from the description of Symmetrical archery combined with the stat block. They are clearly stating that anytime you would normally get a single attack you instead get two attacks. So each iterative attack is doubled, many shot is doubled, and so is rapid shot. The only real issue I can see is if you have one bow with the speed enhancement and one without it you should technically get two shots from that enhancement instead of one which seems like an issue.
    Manyshot could go either way since it is not an attack action, but a standard action that makes an attack involving multiple arrows. There are 3 possible ways to rule it: 1. you double the manyshot 2. you get an additional arrow with your normal manyshot 3. you can use both bows to make a single manyshot. Each of these readings has advantages over at least one other reading.

    edit: Something I just thought of, doubling manyshot would likely also double the penalty, since it cares about how many arrows you are firing for that.

    Rapid shot and speed enhancement DO NOT work with symmetrical archery, because when you are making a full attack the ability explicitly states that you can double your NORMAL iterative attacks, IE, the ones from BAB. Since rapid shot and speed are not normal iterative attacks, they cannot trigger symmetrical archery. This also prevents doubling TWF bonus attacks, since those are feat iterative attacks and not BAB iterative attacks. And before mention is made of arrow demon's having rapid shot as a chosen feat, the stat block doesn't use it.

    For example, when making an attack action, an arrow demon can fire one arrow from each bow at its normal attack bonus minus 2, and when making a full-attack action, it can fire one arrow from each bow for each of its normal iterative attacks
    Last edited by zergling.exe; 2018-06-18 at 01:26 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #669
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Unlike most demons, they lack a wide range of SLAs, with their only one being at-will, self-only Dimension Door. Not without purpose, but unlikely to make a large impact on the game.
    I disagree. Being able to teleport around randomly would be a lot of fun. (Though I agree that at 11th level it's probably not going to have an unbalancing effect on the game. Some new tactical options and another way to trivialize traversal obstacles, most of which don't bother any party with fly, but that's about it.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I think the reason that this strikes me as, if not odd, at least worthy of discussion is because 10 RHD is quite literally the majority of your build before you hit 20.
    Um...actually, majority means more than half. It's one hit die short of being the majority.


    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    You really need +4 net abilities, +1 natural AC, and one solid ability to justify RHD, even good RHD.
    ...
    In my case, I consider each discrete RHD to need +4 net abilities, +1 natural AC, and a solid ability to match a classed build equivalent
    Where did you get that? It sounds like someone's been doing some interesting analysis of RHD, and I'd like to read it.


    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    The PHB's glossary disagrees with your attribution of force as energy damage:
    Which brings us back to dessication, frostburn, and other unusual damage types introduced in one supplement or another. They're not energy types, they can't be affected by resist energy or the like, but that doesn't really matter. Are these damage types all affected by damage reduction, just because they're not energy?
    And for that matter, what about positive and negative energy? They're specifically called out as not being energy in the energy-damage sense; does DR help against that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Isn't there a bow that it could use in melee?
    I think there's some elven bow in some supplement or another that works like that. It's probably hard to find in Large size, but you might be able to get it custom-made.
    ...Erm, your elven friend might be able to get it custom-made. Demons probably aren't welcomed by most elven bowyers.


    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    Keep in mind that a creature with more than 2 arms is not allowed to take TWF, it is automatically replaced by MWF by RAW. Which sucks because there is no IMWF or GMWF printed anywhere (in 3.5) so they can't get additional off hand attacks without homebrewing equivalents (or updating 3.25 SS content).
    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    The Greater and Improved MWF feats are in Savage Species, and are mechanically identical to the TWF line: end result is a 5 feat chain to get your iteratives and look at a net -2/-4 attack penalty depending on whether or not all your off hand weapons are light or not.
    Which is why I think TWF should have just had an addendum saying that it and feats depending on it worked if a many-limbed creature wanted to use all of its limbs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    If we're going to just tack on 10 levels of a base class for rider damage, Scout does it considerably more consistently than Rogue (it requires you move 10 ft., method is not mentioned, you have at-will D-door)...
    Doesn't that take a standard action? That would be an impressive and terrifying combo with 3E haste, but I don't think 3.5 has any way to quicken SLAs more than a few times per day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft
    BTW, Soulbow works with Arrow Demon. Its mind arrows are identical to arrows fired from longbows.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute
    No, it doesn't. The Arrow Demon needs a bow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft
    Nuh-uh, the Soulbow says it's identical to a bow attack!
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute
    It says it's identical to an arrow.
    I'm amused by this argument.
    Logically, I agree with OgresAreCute. Thematically, I agree with Nifft. Mechanically, I agree with the DM. I think it's safe to call it a gray area.
    Out of curiosity...does the soulbow have anything else that would potentially move an Arrow Demon Soulbow above +1 LA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    What's your specific benchmark for this?
    Why do people keep asking? Do they expect the answer to change, or did they just not notice/are in denial of the times Inevitability answered?
    This is especially egregious, since he gave an answer of his benchmark literally for the last monster.
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    Negative LA Assignment Thread
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Spoiler: Arrow Demon
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    I disagree. Being able to teleport around randomly would be a lot of fun. (Though I agree that at 11th level it's probably not going to have an unbalancing effect on the game. Some new tactical options and another way to trivialize traversal obstacles, most of which don't bother any party with fly, but that's about it.)



    Um...actually, majority means more than half. It's one hit die short of being the majority.



    Where did you get that? It sounds like someone's been doing some interesting analysis of RHD, and I'd like to read it.


    Which brings us back to dessication, frostburn, and other unusual damage types introduced in one supplement or another. They're not energy types, they can't be affected by resist energy or the like, but that doesn't really matter. Are these damage types all affected by damage reduction, just because they're not energy?
    And for that matter, what about positive and negative energy? They're specifically called out as not being energy in the energy-damage sense; does DR help against that?



    I think there's some elven bow in some supplement or another that works like that. It's probably hard to find in Large size, but you might be able to get it custom-made.
    ...Erm, your elven friend might be able to get it custom-made. Demons probably aren't welcomed by most elven bowyers.




    Which is why I think TWF should have just had an addendum saying that it and feats depending on it worked if a many-limbed creature wanted to use all of its limbs.



    Doesn't that take a standard action? That would be an impressive and terrifying combo with 3E haste, but I don't think 3.5 has any way to quicken SLAs more than a few times per day.






    I'm amused by this argument.
    Logically, I agree with OgresAreCute. Thematically, I agree with Nifft. Mechanically, I agree with the DM. I think it's safe to call it a gray area.
    Out of curiosity...does the soulbow have anything else that would potentially move an Arrow Demon Soulbow above +1 LA?


    Tone != Attitude. "Polite" is a tone, not an attitude. You can express a bad attitude politely; look at Faux Affably Evil (and to a lesser extent Affably Evil) for extreme examples.




    Why do people keep asking? Do they expect the answer to change, or did they just not notice/are in denial of the times Inevitability answered?
    This is especially egregious, since he gave an answer of his benchmark literally for the last monster.
    people are expecting a benchmark per monster. comparing like to like. a full caster monster will not be benchmarked based on how it compares to martials. a beatstick will not be compared to casters. each monster has its own benchmark and one wasnt listed for this new monster.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Why do people keep asking? Do they expect the answer to change, or did they just not notice/are in denial of the times Inevitability answered?
    This is especially egregious, since he gave an answer of his benchmark literally for the last monster.
    What he gave for the previous monster was the tier, which is not what's currently being asked.

    Hopefully your confusion has been addressed, and you can drop your offended act.


    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    people are expecting a benchmark per monster. comparing like to like. a full caster monster will not be benchmarked based on how it compares to martials. a beatstick will not be compared to casters. each monster has its own benchmark and one wasnt listed for this new monster.
    Exactly right.

    This is a somewhat complex monster, and apparently he judged it to be +1 over the benchmark. But what was the benchmark?

    The thing honestly looks underwhelming to me, so I'm hoping that seeing the original basis for comparison will show how it out-performs relative to something known to be decent.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    This is a somewhat complex monster, and apparently he judged it to be +1 over the benchmark. But what was the benchmark?

    The thing honestly looks underwhelming to me, so I'm hoping that seeing the original basis for comparison will show how it out-performs relative to something known to be decent.
    I know we're always aiming for tier 3 unless something else makes more sense (racial casting, etc), but are there actually any tier 3 archer classes? Most of the stereotypical archer classes (ranger, scout, fighter) are tier 4 and below. Only one I can see in tier 3 is Psychic Warrior, but I don't know if a ranged build on that class would still remain in that tier.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I know we're always aiming for tier 3 unless something else makes more sense (racial casting, etc), but are there actually any tier 3 archer classes? Most of the stereotypical archer classes (ranger, scout, fighter) are tier 4 and below. Only one I can see in tier 3 is Psychic Warrior, but I don't know if a ranged build on that class would still remain in that tier.
    Yeah, and a Ranger only touches T3 when she abandons bows in favor of Wild Shape.

    I know Cleric Archers can be petty great, but they're not in T3 either.

    Chaos Incarnate has some archery melds, but I dunno how well they compare.

    Totemist has some archery-like tricks (... if you find a DM with a generous interpretation of Manticore Belt).

    Binder has a low-level vestige with a decent archery ability (Leraje -> Ricochet), well decent at low levels at least, I don't think it keeps pace at ECL 10+.

    So... yeah. You make a good point. I'd been mentally comparing the Arrow Demon to a particular Ranger PC, and that's maybe too low-tier to be valid.


    However, the Arrow Demon rating seems to be closed now, so the benchmark that I'm currently asking for is the Sorrowsworn.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    However, the Arrow Demon rating seems to be closed now, so the benchmark that I'm currently asking for is the Sorrowsworn.
    Oops. The sorrowsworn is extremely beefy, has 13 skill points per level (albeit with a relatively small skill list), free action crowd control and a grab-bag of spell-likes, in addition to full BAB including all iteratives... I suppose something gishy-like? Gishes in tier 3 would be Duskblade, Psychic Warrior and Bard. I don't know what tier a full-casting multiclassed gish ends up in (with Abjurant Champion and such), but I feel like it would be higher than 3.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    @GreatWyrmGold: my analysis is not so much a hard rule as a ballpark estimate. It originally grew out of my analyses of templates when I was theorycrafting Gestalt martial builds; I took what I considered one of the more balanced, genuinely good templates and built a framework. The starting point was the Gravetouched Ghoul from Libris Mortis: LA +2 with no negatives beyond a type change, and relatively basic benefits in discrete packages. Net +14 abilities, +2 natural AC, and 4 ability packages of note: Undead typing, +2 Turn Resistance, 3 low damage natural attacks with a rider effect on the claws, 1 bonus feat. Divide it up proportionally across 2 LA, and you get +1 natural AC, net +6 abilities, and either 1 excellent ability (Undead typing) or 4 solid abilities (natural attacks + rider effect, +2 net ability, Turn Resistance, bonus feat) for each of the 2 LA.

    That is the basic framework of how I judge the LA on templates these days: for each point of LA, assuming no buyoff, I am looking for a net of +6 abilities, +1 natural AC, and either one very good ability or 3-4 decent ones. Obviously very few templates fit neatly into that category, but it is a starting point to work with when balancing parity against worthwhile, Tier 3+ classes.

    When I began viewing RHD through a similar lense, I took that and modified it: RHD, even terrible RHD, are almost universally better than straight LA, so the basic framework I came up with was: 1 RHD needs to provide a net +4 of abilities, +1 natural AC, and 1 decent ability. That is judged against what I consider 'middle of the road' RHD like Monstrous Humanoid and Magical Beast, which provide a chassis most similar to better classes. Dragon and Outsider RHD are much better and accordingly weighed as a benefit, and the rest of the RHD types are weak enough to be considered a penalty for taking them, and adjusting accordingly.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-06-18 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I know we're always aiming for tier 3 unless something else makes more sense (racial casting, etc), but are there actually any tier 3 archer classes? Most of the stereotypical archer classes (ranger, scout, fighter) are tier 4 and below. Only one I can see in tier 3 is Psychic Warrior, but I don't know if a ranged build on that class would still remain in that tier.
    That was why I was pushing for +0 LA, the comparison points I know of are all Tier 5 or low to medium tier 4 and often not very playable once you hit level ~10 due to how many spells shut you down and the fact that DR 10+ starts coming into play. At +0 the demon arrows benefits elevate nonmagical archery into tier 3 realms which I assumed was the goal here to be competitive with tier 3 not to be kneecapped because you are too good for 4 & 5...

    I think the comparison for Sorrowsworn should be a gish, I have primarily seen hexblade thrown around which is a decent choice given the save or suck abilities of the Sorrowsworn except for the fact that hexblade is tier 4. If we look at other gish such as duskblade, sorcadin, swiftblade, and even melee focused bard; we tend to see similarities to the comparison between hexblade and Sorrowsworn. The Sorrowsworn is a better beatstick whereas the gish are much more versatile and harder to shutdown their non-beatstick characteristics, especially at these high levels. Some of these gish can have level 9 spells depending on what they emphasized (sorcadin & swiftblade) and others can have comparable/better melee capability (duskblade specifically comes to mind here). In my head Sorrowsworn comes out below the normal gish standard due to how easily its niche is shutdown so I am thinking low end +0 LA but possibly close to -0.

    I have a hard time seeing any DM who wants a low end power game letting almost any monster class into the party at all as from my experience of these types of games they tend to be human/ little to no magic, so I don't think there even needs to be any evaluation done on such basis.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I think sorrowsworn are a +0. As a pc, around tier 3, they should be able to get their abilities off often enough. Unless all your enemies are built pcs. That's a significantly different game if the dm is handcrafting everything you face, and likely outside the norm. Some types are bad for you, but a lot aren't.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    I think sorrowsworn are a +0. As a pc, around tier 3, they should be able to get their abilities off often enough. Unless all your enemies are built pcs. That's a significantly different game if the dm is handcrafting everything you face, and likely outside the norm. Some types are bad for you, but a lot aren't.
    The Sorrowsworn's core abilities are all [Mind-Affecting] - Undead and Constructs are immune, and magical immunity to Mind Affecting is going to be more or less standard for any reasonably intelligent, appropriately resourced, entity of your level or higher, ignoring the fact that the serious opponents are this level are likely to be casters or similar, with the attendant good will save, and/or Dragons or Outsiders, with their own good will saves and good stats.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Agree with +0. A spammable save-or-suck doesn't mean much when every target of consequence is going to no-sell it, and the spell-likes, while very handy, don't offer anything overpowering. It has a pretty durable chassis for 18RHD - but again, only the saves matter in rocket tag. I could see this thing making a good frontliner in low-op games where there's a gentleman's agreement to win fights mainly by HP damage.

    Pros:
    - high saves, especially fort
    - lots of nifty utility buttons

    Cons:
    - very little on the offensive side that enemies of that level can't laugh off
    - an aura that's more likely to hurt your own side than the enemy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    I could see this thing making a good frontliner in low-op games where there's a gentleman's agreement to win fights mainly by HP damage.
    Seriously like I said above, what low-op game would allow this thing in, or for that matter 90% or more of the monsters we have put LA on? Low-Ops is rarely monster friendly...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    In both cases, the benchmark is T3-T4. Also, the sorrowsworn demon has been updated to +0 LA.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    people are expecting a benchmark per monster. comparing like to like.
    I would have thought the "comparing like to like" would stick by now, without Inevitability having to explicitly say "We're comparing this guy to a hexblade" or whatever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    What he gave for the previous monster was the tier, which is not what's currently being asked.
    Hopefully your confusion has been addressed, and you can drop your offended act.
    It wasn't confusion or offendedness, or acting as either. It was irritation at seeing the same question over and over in four threads with the answer rarely if ever changing significantly. It wastes time to answer the same question over and over, to discuss it over and over, to point out that the question has been freaking answered over and over...
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I would have thought the "comparing like to like" would stick by now, without Inevitability having to explicitly say "We're comparing this guy to a hexblade" or whatever.



    It wasn't confusion or offendedness, or acting as either. It was irritation at seeing the same question over and over in four threads with the answer rarely if ever changing significantly. It wastes time to answer the same question over and over, to discuss it over and over, to point out that the question has been freaking answered over and over...
    I think that comparing like to like has stuck, the problem is that not every monster has a clear analogue.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Dinosaur, Battletitan


    This about sums it up.

    Seriously though: the battletitan is awesome, but it's also got 36 RHD, and it's basically the common slash-grab-swallow monster except intended for much higher levels of play (where it fails to perform well, in case you were wondering).

    No matter how well that 42 strength gets utilized, no matter how cleverly those epic feats are used, in the end a battletitan will fail to perform as expected at ECL 36: a place when PCs are supposed to be capable of handling multiple demon lords at once.

    Perhaps the easiest -0 LA I've ever issued.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I think that comparing like to like has stuck, the problem is that not every monster has a clear analogue.
    Exactly right.

    Furthermore, discussion about what is an appropriate analogue will remain on-topic, and will continue to occur, in spite of whatever crap the irritable bowel disgorges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    [CENTER][CENTER]Dinosaur, Battletitan

    (...) ECL 36: a place when PCs are supposed to be capable of handling multiple demon lords at once.

    Perhaps the easiest -0 LA I've ever issued.
    Yeah 36 RHD, not much to discuss on that guy.

    Verdict: LA --, not for PCs.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Yep. -0. Not even useful as fodder at that level.

    Possibly useful as a monster if the party is operating in a low magic zone, or has some sort of in-game reason to not use magic/equivalents to instant win. Otherwise ... not even useful as an Epic Druid's companion (or anybody else's companion).
    The necromancer won't want it because it sucks and has too many HD. Not even a mind controller would want it for anything other than a short term expendable/ disposable minion, because keeping it long term would be a resource drain (if it's still alive, you need to take care of it).


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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    they just look so derpy with their goofy armor that looks like it is about to fall off. But seriously who thought it was a good idea to use epic feat slots for such uselessness. Its already cursed to be little more than a flag barer you could at least give it some nice feat WotC. I don't think it will even make for a good wild shape form at these levels since you can have the sa of all magic beasts and dragons you become...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Battletitan Dinosaur is definitely LA -0 and then some, but I cannot get over the atrocious feat selection. This thing has...Run. I know the armor proficiency feats are fluffy, but you would think they could have at least replaced Run with something useful. Like Great Fortitude.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    Battletitan Dinosaur is definitely LA -0 and then some, but I cannot get over the atrocious feat selection. This thing has...Run. I know the armor proficiency feats are fluffy, but you would think they could have at least replaced Run with something useful. Like Great Fortitude.
    I disagree, even on a fluff bases giving it three armor proficiency feats is ridiculous on something with this many rhd when we have warhorses and riding dogs, not to mention warbeast. I mean seriously what type of intelligent humanoid wouldn't train this thing for war?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    It actually has a rider on its back. An armored knight with a lance. Words fail me.

    Why is this thing not a stock "stupid D&D monster" on par with the flumphs or the gelatinous cube?
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