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  1. - Top - End - #691
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    Why is this thing not a stock "stupid D&D monster" on par with the flumphs or the gelatinous cube?
    Serious answer to the rhetorical question: lack of history.

  2. - Top - End - #692
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    The only use for a Battletitan is to be reared by Bubs the Commoner.
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  3. - Top - End - #693
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The only use for a Battletitan is to be reared by Bubs the Commoner.
    Since dinosaurs = birds, perhaps with sufficient shenanigans we can exploit Chicken Infested so a Commoner can throw unlimited Battletitans around.

  4. - Top - End - #694
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    Why is this thing not a stock "stupid D&D monster" on par with the flumphs or the gelatinous cube?
    I don't think many people know what it is. Also, flumphs and gelatinous cubes are silly, but this is just kind of useless.

  5. - Top - End - #695
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    The battletitan would make a wonderful addition to a fantasy tabletop wargame army - it wouldn't look the least bit out of place in Age of Sigmar, and could probably pull its weight there.

    As a D&D piece it falls flatter than a pancake. -0 for lack of a lower available score.
    Last edited by Random Sanity; 2018-06-20 at 07:51 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #696
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Hmm animal HD. 1/4 CR to level ratio by default, for good reason. Though this thing is closer to 2:1. Probably would boarder on a walking TPK at CR 12 though.

    I mean it's CR 16 seems a little high though lowering it anymore does make it quite dangerous. Out of curiosity: if we used CR = ECL what ECL would this thing be? Honestly the biggest issue with it's swallow whole is the fact it can only hold 1 medium creature. 51+ grapple and with that almost DC 40 Fort check to avoid essentially being screwed makes his swallow whole borderline a SoL.

  7. - Top - End - #697
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Hmm animal HD. 1/4 CR to level ratio by default, for good reason. Though this thing is closer to 2:1. Probably would boarder on a walking TPK at CR 12 though.

    I mean it's CR 16 seems a little high though lowering it anymore does make it quite dangerous. Out of curiosity: if we used CR = ECL what ECL would this thing be? Honestly the biggest issue with it's swallow whole is the fact it can only hold 1 medium creature. 51+ grapple and with that almost DC 40 Fort check to avoid essentially being screwed makes his swallow whole borderline a SoL.
    With many monsters that are effectively just big sacks of meat, after a certain point you cross the line from "monster as opponent" and hit "monster as puzzle."

    It has numbers, but it also has literally nothing but numbers, and it's got animal-level intelligence. It also cannot fly. If the numbers are too big for you to take by getting in there and slugging it out, then the goal is less to outfight it and more to outsmart it. It can do absolutely nothing about a flying sniper, just to use the most painfully obvious example possible (and remember, getting something to run away and hide still counts as a victory). Or you can use the fact that it has the Animal type to actually make Wild Empathy worth something—send in the Ranger and befriend the beast in ways you couldn't do against something that doesn't have the Animal keyword. And so on.

    After you cross the threshold of "this thing has numbers that are too big to engage directly," within certain limits of reasonability, there's not really a difference between 36 HD and 45 HD and 60 HD. You still can't beat it by getting up in its grill and exchanging melee attacks (note: I'm not saying that it's impossible to build a character who can do such a thing with a battletitan, but the point is that we're assuming that there's some threshold beyond which you say "his martial ability is bigger than mine and I cannot win a slugfest in stand-and-bang range"), so you're going to have to find an alternate way of dealing with the encounter no matter what. That might even be intentional. Sacks of meat are boring, though there's an awful lot of them in the MM1.
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  8. - Top - End - #698
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Hmm animal HD. 1/4 CR to level ratio by default, for good reason. Though this thing is closer to 2:1. Probably would boarder on a walking TPK at CR 12 though.

    I mean it's CR 16 seems a little high though lowering it anymore does make it quite dangerous. Out of curiosity: if we used CR = ECL what ECL would this thing be? Honestly the biggest issue with it's swallow whole is the fact it can only hold 1 medium creature. 51+ grapple and with that almost DC 40 Fort check to avoid essentially being screwed makes his swallow whole borderline a SoL.
    Hard to say, if it was fully respected at somewhere between 10-16 adding warbeast template, endurance and steadfast determination, and other feats split between INA, PA, and MA it could be a playable character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    After you cross the threshold of "this thing has numbers that are too big to engage directly," within certain limits of reasonability, there's not really a difference between 36 HD and 45 HD and 60 HD. You still can't beat it by getting up in its grill and exchanging melee attacks (note: I'm not saying that it's impossible to build a character who can do such a thing with a battletitan, but the point is that we're assuming that there's some threshold beyond which you say "his martial ability is bigger than mine and I cannot win a slugfest in stand-and-bang range"), so you're going to have to find an alternate way of dealing with the encounter no matter what. That might even be intentional. Sacks of meat are boring, though there's an awful lot of them in the MM1.
    Our level 5 group one time stumbled across a tarrasque and after some planning and setup we actually beat it by pissing it off into chasing us off a cliff into a tar pit. So ya when things are a big pile of numbers with little intelligence there are maybe options.

  9. - Top - End - #699
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Can animals use incarnum? The titan could have some swing there as a monster.

  10. - Top - End - #700
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Dinosaur, Bloodstriker


    Another dinosaur! This one's Large, has 9 RHD, and is defensively oriented. That said, it has actually interesting abilities, so let's take a look!

    Strength and constitution are decent, all other stats are awfully low. A 20 ft. burrow speed has some uses, free Powerful Charge is neat, and +10 natural armor is hardly unimpressive, but overall the chassis disappoints.

    The bloodstriker has three special abilities aside from low-light vision. First of them is Blood Squirt (the ability to spray lines of acidic blood each 1d4 rounds): an attempt at an offensive ability that deals pitifully low damage. Even against hordes of weak opponents the ability is unlikely to score significant kills.

    The other two abilities are both defensive: Caustic Blood deals acid damage to melee attackers not using manufactured reach weapons, and Spiked Skin adds 1d8+6 piercing and slashing damage to that. The only real difference between the abilities is that Caustic Blood only activates on successful attacks, while Spiked Skin also damages if the triggering attack misses.

    However, with little to no offensive presence (an 1d8 bite hasn't been adequate for a long time), and no way to draw in enemy attacks, the bloodstriker will probably end up being ignored by foes in favor of squishier targets, leaving it mostly useless. -0 LA.
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  11. - Top - End - #701
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I don't disagree with the rating of -0, but it feels like a Large sized Charge-focused creature with a Burrow speed has a better chassis than many melee types for actually serving as a roadblock to physical threats, and the HD are low enough that there's some room to bolt on class levels. It might make for an interesting example of an admittedly sub-optimal build (low/moderate damage melee 'tank'.)

  12. - Top - End - #702
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Man, I want to like this thing. As you said, they attempted to do something a little different than purely “sack of meat,” which is great! Buuuuuut we’re still dealing with a pile of poor RHD and godawful INT, so this makes a better Wild Shape/Polymorph option than a racial option. (I’m sure there are more strictly optimal choices for WS at the relevant level, but still.)
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  13. - Top - End - #703
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    I think this guy could become somewhat decent in a dungeon-crawl style campaign once it has some levels in Crusader. Its lack of skill-points and decent skills is really holding it back from contributing in any way outside of combat though. -0 sounds fine.
    Last edited by DeTess; 2018-06-21 at 11:23 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #704
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Mmmmh...I actually think this thing could be salvageable as a chassis, even with the really bad typing. However, a few too many RHD as is, so I am giving it LA -0. It just does not have enough benefits to justify its RHD, even though potential remains.

  15. - Top - End - #705
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Maybe at 4 RHD, but definitely not at 9. LA -0.
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  16. - Top - End - #706
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Argh. Why can't the cool thing with acid blood have fewer RHD?

    LA -0, but I want one as a mount.

  17. - Top - End - #707
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    LA -0, but I want one as a mount.
    Can I add this to the archive?
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  18. - Top - End - #708
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Can I add this to the archive?
    Of course.

  19. - Top - End - #709
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    if acid blood spray did decent damage this think might be alright, however, the fact that it doesn't even deal enough damage at its level and has no scaling just kind of ruins it. I feel like they were trying to go for that cute little umbrella dino that spits ink/acid in Wayne Knight's face but failed horribly.

    On a side note I now want to home brew one of those! But ya -0 LA, I look forward to the infamous dino that is next!

  20. - Top - End - #710
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I think this guy could become somewhat decent in a dungeon-crawl style campaign once it has some levels in Crusader. Its lack of skill-points and decent skills is really holding it back from contributing in any way outside of combat though. -0 sounds fine.
    I was also thinking crusader levels would be interesting.
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  21. - Top - End - #711
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Dinosaur, Fleshraker


    The fleshraker: no other animal gets more frequently mentioned in optimization threads of any kind (except perhaps chickens). It's been used as an example of druids being overpowered, of WotC being bad at assigning CRs, of Venomfire being totally awesome... That said, how does it perform as a PC?

    4 animal RHD aren't that bad, but still something you'd like to avoid if possible. 17 strength, 19 dexterity, and 15 constitution are quite nice physical stats, and the four (!) natural attacks don't hurt either, especially with three of those carrying a dexterity-damaging poison. Add a mouthpick weapon and you've got yourself one threatening combatant.

    Leaping Pounce, the creature's main ability, is excellent. Not only does it duplicate Pounce, it also allows for free trip (and potentially grapple) checks against small enough charge targets. Furthermore, it also adds a neat little rake to every charge.

    Last are a large bonus to Hide, as well as Jump.

    As useful as these features may be, the fleshraker suffers from a lack of opposable thumbs, intelligence, and versatility. However, I think +0 LA is still very appropriate on this creature. At ECL 4, it won't be outshining various other T4 options, but it will have several advantages that make it worth considering.

    Do discuss!
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-06-22 at 01:32 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #712
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Fleshraker: 4 RHD, not a deal breaker. Net +16 abilities, +5 natural AC, ground speed of 50 ft at medium, Leaping Pounce and 1 Rake on a charge. Dex damage Poison is the best of the common varieties, and 1d6/1d6 is sufficient on 3 attacks to be a viable threat. Jump bonus is meh, but that is a very respectable Hide bonus.

    Overall, I am leaning towards LA +0. At 4 RHD, the Fleshraker should be about parity with a well built ground charger. Trading away any pretense of skills for poison and putting itself near the top of the damage curve, I think it is playable.

  23. - Top - End - #713
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Fleshraker

    Speed: 50 ft, that's good for a Medium biped.
    AC: +6 natural, that's also quite good at level 4, and respectable as a slotless item all the way to level 20.
    Abilities: Str +6, Dex +8, Con +4, Int -8, Wis +4, Cha +2 -> net +16, that's pretty great for any non-Wizard-like.
    Skills: +6 racial Jump bonus, and +8 racial Hide bonus (+10 in forests).

    Solid chassis.

    Special abilities:
    - Pounce - this is the cornerstone of many builds, and has good synergy with the Jump racial bonus thanks to Leap Attack. Yours gets a free Trip and a free Grapple that immediately counts as a Pin.
    - Natural Attacks - you get 4 technically, but you can't tail attack and bite attack the same target, so sometimes one will go unused.
    - Rake - basically a bite replacement without the targeting restriction.

    Build options seem straightforward and awesome:
    • Psychic Warrior for Expansion and claw-boosting powers. Since your Leaping Pounce has special effects if you're larger than your target, you really like Expansion.
    • Non-Wildshape Druid for Wis to AC and Animal-boosting spells, plus venomfire if your DM is foolish enough to allow uncensored FR books.
    • Totemist for more natural attacks and natural attack enhancers, all based around Con and Wis.
    • Swordsage for Wis to AC, some fun Jump maneuvers in Tiger Claw, and all the good stuff in Shadow Hand.
    • Scout, because Pounce + Skirmish is hilarious.
    • Cleric, because you are Raptor Jesus, and go Cloistered if you want a few skill points in spite of your Int malus.


    The 4 RHD hurt the classes above T3 the most, but that's perfectly fine since the target tier is T3. The ability boosts and free Pounce are well worth 4 RHD.


    Verdict LA +0 assuming class abilities are allowed to work and equipment is possible to buy, even if armor is more costly. In a game where Pounce is difficult to obtain -- e.g. where Spirit Lion Totem isn't allowed -- this might be LA +1, since Pounce is really good.

  24. - Top - End - #714
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Fleshraker[*] Non-Wildshape Druid for Wis to AC and Animal-boosting spells, plus venomfire if your DM is foolish enough to allow uncensored FR books.
    That was my first thought too, the druid spells are pretty awesome for the Fleshraker for the same reason they kind of suck for the nymph, and given the fact that you already have pounce barbarian dip isn't as important. Also given that they have a tail attack aren't these guys one feat away from no hands not being an issue? I think these guys justifiably deserve +0 LA.

    On a side note I have been wondering for a while if hand of mage would help at all for monsters without hands, and was wondering what people though. Is it a no go because of specific call out of pointing a finger? I feel like anything with claws technically qualifies a loose definition of 'fingers' and it seems like it would be useful for things like picking up gems, gold coins, heck you could even use it to put a pack on your back (too bad it can't pickup anything that is magic, though that seems silly to me) and maybe use a door nob depending on if the door nob is ruled as part of the door so outside the weight limits...

    On another side note I think the fleshraker picture is one of the worst in the game, I mean seriously did someone just hit it in the shoulder so hard that it dislocated its shoulder after stumping its hand a few times?

  25. - Top - End - #715
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Concur, Bloodstriker -0.




    Concur, Fleshraker +0. Better as a wildshape/polymorph form, though. Oooh ... Were-Fleshrakers.
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  26. - Top - End - #716
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Oddities in the fleshraker's mechanics:
    • In Leaping Pounce, it says the Trip attempt doesn't provoke AoOs, but it doesn't say that about the Grapple check. It also doesn't exempt you from having to make a touch attack before the Grapple.
    • I've usually interpreted the rules for rake attacks during a Pounce as still requiring you to establish a grapple during your Pounce attack, which means you need Improved Grab. The fleshraker is one of the few creatures (along the griffin and the sphinxes) that gets Pounce+Rake without Improved Grab, which is really confusing to me.
    • Also, the fleshraker (like the tiger) seems to have gotten approval to waive the BAB requirement for Improved Natural Attack. This is funny, because there is an errata entry for Improved Natural Attack (not related to this issue), and immediately after it, there is an entry about correcting monsters that don't meet the BAB requirement for Weapon Finesse.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    But seriously who thought it was a good idea to use epic feat slots for such uselessness. Its already cursed to be little more than a flag barer you could at least give it some nice feat WotC.
    I have no idea what feats were available. Oh, I'm sure there are some great feats in the Epic Level Handbook, but the designers probably wanted to stick to core feats as much as possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Our level 5 group one time stumbled across a tarrasque and after some planning and setup we actually beat it by pissing it off into chasing us off a cliff into a tar pit.
    I'm surprised that worked for long. I would have thought that the tarrasque would get out of the tar pit without too much difficulty. Unless it started munching on tar and got its mouth stuck shut or something...
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    . Oooh ... Were-Fleshrakers.
    Neanderthal were-fleshrakers, for when you failed natural history class.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Neanderthal were-fleshrakers, for when you failed natural history class.
    I don't need history. I watch the Flintstones. Now excuse me, I need to go buy children's vitamins and cigarettes.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Neanderthal were-fleshrakers, for when you failed natural history class.
    I mean, it's D&D. They've got dinosaurs walking around in the present day: if anything neanderthals and dinosaurs together would be more historically accurate.
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