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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    To focus on this part: Fiendish and Celestial are both +1 LA in any game that uses this thread's ratings
    HA! So basically, you house-ruled Fiendish, therefore you think it's totally fair to compare it to a non-house-ruled Obah Blessed?

    It's not fair, it's blatantly biased. You need to go do ratings for Obah-Blessed, and compare like to like.

    But also, LA +1 is a significantly higher cost than 5k gp. There's no way you can call an extra LA +1 cheap nor accessible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Furthermore, Obah-Blessed is Dungeon magazine, and therefore very commonly not allowed.
    Savage Species is also not commonly allowed, because it's broken worse than Dungeon mag or Dragon mag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    That said, having read some of the arguments in this thread I now agree with the notion that swindlespitters have hands. +0 LA, which hopefully should satisfy most people.
    It's a step forward. Good for you for listening.

  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    HA! So basically, you house-ruled Fiendish, therefore you think it's totally fair to compare it to a non-house-ruled Obah Blessed?

    It's not fair, it's blatantly biased. You need to go do ratings for Obah-Blessed, and compare like to like.

    But also, LA +1 is a significantly higher cost than 5k gp. There's no way you can call an extra LA +1 cheap nor accessible.
    At lower levels, i'd say that LA+1 is definitely more accessible than that, and since you can buy a single LA off at relatively lower levels, I'm not really seeing the issue here. And if you want Obah-blessed rated, I don't think anyone will stop you from starting your own thread to do so, or provide an argument for its likely LA so it can be discussed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    It's a step forward. Good for you for listening.

    You're welcome to disagree with people and debate, but please remain respectful.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    At lower levels, i'd say that LA+1 is definitely more accessible than that, and since you can buy a single LA off at relatively lower levels, I'm not really seeing the issue here. And if you want Obah-blessed rated, I don't think anyone will stop you from starting your own thread to do so, or provide an argument for its likely LA so it can be discussed here.
    At low levels, the inaccessible part is the Savage Species ritual that you'd need to get the template in the first place. This was central to Inevitability's argument -- you'll see it if you scroll through his earlier posts.

    Savage Species rituals are inaccessible because Savage Species is not a popular campaign inclusion, plus there's the cost to research and the the cost to perform.

    You're not seeing it because you'd need to read the rest of the conversation to know the context.


    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    You're welcome to disagree with people and debate, but please remain respectful.
    You think there's something disrespectful about praising someone for changing his behavior in a positive way?

    Justify that.

  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post

    You think there's something disrespectful about praising someone for changing his behavior in a positive way?

    Justify that.
    Yes, you can be disrespectful while agreeing with someone changing their opinion. What you said seemed to me to be the exasperated sigh of a genius that finally got someone to agree to his obviously right point of view, and not someone thanking an equal for coming around tot heir point of view. Maybe it was meant in good faith, but that's definitely not what it looked like to me.

    You are quite right about me missing the context related to the savage species ritual though, and if me missing this inconvenienced anyone here arguing in good faith I apologize for that.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    Yes, you can be disrespectful while agreeing with someone changing their opinion. What you said seemed to me to be the exasperated sigh of a genius that finally got someone to agree to his obviously right point of view, and not someone thanking an equal for coming around tot heir point of view. Maybe it was meant in good faith, but that's definitely not what it looked like to me.

    You are quite right about me missing the context related to the savage species ritual though, and if me missing this inconvenienced anyone here arguing in good faith I apologize for that.
    Well, you happen to be missing a bit more context. In this case, it's not the first time someone has tried to get Inevvy to remove an imaginary demerit which chiefly exists through assumption.

    It's a bit ironic that you're doubling down on a condescending personal attack while also apologizing for missing the context of a separate attack. I'm bringing this up specifically because you seem to have learned from the latter, so I think there's a chance you might learn from your mistake regarding the former as well.

    Hopefully this derail of yours is over and we can get back to the topic?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Don't worry, I've learnt my lesson and will never derail a thread because of something you said again

    Edit: oh, almost forgot. With functional hands, this creatures is definitely +0 at any level.
    Last edited by DeTess; 2018-06-25 at 02:03 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    With a consensus on hands, I will agree with LA +0. That is a lot to pack into 2 RHD, even if the Dex is the only standout.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    With a consensus on hands, I will agree with LA +0. That is a lot to pack into 2 RHD, even if the Dex is the only standout.
    I agree that it's quite a lot, but I don't think it's necessarily a +1LA equivalent better than two levels in a proper class.
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I agree that it's quite a lot, but I don't think it's necessarily a +1LA equivalent better than two levels in a proper class.
    Where did you get the LA +1? Assigning an LA of +0 means this thing would be directly compared to a race without RHD or level adjustment, possessing 2 class levels and no LA altering templates. I think the 2 RHD line up reasonably well with 2 levels in any particular martial class + any race with no LA, hence LA +0.

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I was trying to use "just" to mean "simply" (as in "just use the basic rule, instead of quibbling niche rules like I've been doing"), and not to mean "only" (as in "just give them Improved Grab, and nothing else").
    Ah. That makes sense!

    But, sorry: I always cause tangents when I post on this thread.
    Hey, I'm at least a little responsible. And I've got a similar habit...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    The Swindlespitter already has hands so she doesn't need any such grafting, but in general your stance is self-contradictory...
    I disagree. Inevitability and others who mention a lack of hands are aware that there are a few magic items and whatnot that can get around the lack of hands, but there are more ways to get around low Intelligence than a lack of hands. While everyone in this thread is doubtless familiar with celestial/fiendish creatures, the awaken spell, etc, I can't be the only one who hasn't heard of the Obah-Blessed template before now.
    Moreover, if you want to play an animal, you want to play an animal. Playing a smart, talking horse is a pretty small deviation, and indeed close to what the player's idea probably was. Playing a horse given minor mutant powers by a highly-setting-specific type of spirit...not so much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Just as a reference point, this is the level of physiological accuracy that I expect to see in D&D:

    So far I have not been disappointed.
    Image code is broken.
    And I think D&D usually does a bit better with its non-explicitly-supernatural biology. Mostly by giving as few details as possible and letting biologists in the audience fill in the gaps for them...


    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    Yes, you can be disrespectful while agreeing with someone changing their opinion. What you said seemed to me to be the exasperated sigh of a genius that finally got someone to agree to his obviously right point of view, and not someone thanking an equal for coming around to their point of view. Maybe it was meant in good faith, but that's definitely not what it looked like to me.
    Quoted for truth.
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  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    Where did you get the LA +1? Assigning an LA of +0 means this thing would be directly compared to a race without RHD or level adjustment, possessing 2 class levels and no LA altering templates. I think the 2 RHD line up reasonably well with 2 levels in any particular martial class + any race with no LA, hence LA +0.
    Sorry, I was probably reading too much into your post. You mentioned that it had quite a lot of features for 2 RHD, which I interpretted as you wondering wether a higher LA was appropriate. I'll try to stop jumping to conclusions now.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Dracotaur


    The dracotaur, a monster that'll hopefully incite less debate on the precise anatomy of its extremities. They have 3 dragon-type RHD (interestingly enough less than a centaur's 4), which is a pretty good chassis HD-wise.

    Their stats are reasonable for a Large creature. 18 strength, 12 dexterity, and 16 constitution are nice to have, and the +2 intelligence and charisma don't hurt either. +5 natural armor and a 50 ft. base movement rate only sweeten the deal. Their natural bite and tail slap don't deal a lot of damage but a nice additions to their wielded weapon.

    Dracotaurs have a single special attack: the ability to hurl globs of flaming sludge for low damage and lower splash damage. I suppose it beats carrying bows around everywhere.

    Skill-wise, they get racial bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Swim. Also notable is the fact that UMD is a class skill for dracotaurs.

    Unfortunately, dracotaurs lack what makes their equine cousins great rather than merely good: easy access to mounted feats (something something Spirited Charge).

    Even so, with only 3 (very good) RHD, the ability to wield weapons, Large size, good strength and a powerful chassis, I think +1 LA can be justified here. A case for +0 could also be made, and I look forward to that debate.
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  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The dracotaur, a monster that'll hopefully incite less debate on the precise anatomy of its extremities.
    Challenge accepted!
    Um...dragon forelimbs are stated to be pretty dextrous (e.g, in the Dracomiconon), so dracotaurs' forelegs should be as well?
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  14. - Top - End - #764
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Challenge accepted!
    Um...dragon forelimbs are stated to be pretty dextrous (e.g, in the Dracomiconon), so dracotaurs' forelegs should be as well?
    Ya know, that fourth foreleg digit looks an awful lot like a thumb...

    More seriously, this looks around a weak LA +1. Dragon RHD, net +20 abilities, large size without reach, 50ft speed, +5 natural AC, a negligible special attack, weak natural attacks, and a small but good list of class skills including UMD and Spellcraft. Small skill bonuses, but decent. I would still prefer Centaur as a quadruped with easy Cavalry access; Dragon typing and already large size limit the template options, but this is solid enough to stack up around +1 to most martials.

  15. - Top - End - #765
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Probably a weak +1, or a strong +0.
    The flame spitting attack has crap range and no scaling, though it is a touch attack. And it's got a cooldown of a minute, so it's basically only 1/encounter.

    There are no standout features or abilities.
    There's nothing bad about it either, though I will note that the favored class is Sorcerer, whereas it's really better suited to a martial build, and while 3d12 dragon HD are a solid boost for a gish, it's behind on proficiencies for a gish build.


    And, to be fair, you might be able to talk a DM into allowing you access to some mounted feats in a manner similar to Centaurs. I know that I'd consider allowing that.
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  16. - Top - End - #766
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The dracotaur, a monster that'll hopefully incite less debate on the precise anatomy of its extremities.
    Oh, I bet we could find something. Like, what sort of package would it have under the hood if it's part horse, part dragon, and part human?


    In any event, the lack of class features sucks, and it's not getting a whole lot in return. If it was 2 HD, I wouldn't argue the +1. With 3, though? I think I'm going to have to lean towards that strong +0. Maybe if it got the centaur mounted combat stuff it would be better, but it doesn't.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    What are we comparing this thing to? because even at default it will wreck a level 4 fighter. And With a single class level it only grow worse.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    What are we comparing this thing to? because even at default it will wreck a level 4 fighter. And With a single class level it only grow worse.
    Being better than a fighter isn't much of an acheivement.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    What are we comparing this thing to? because even at default it will wreck a level 4 fighter. And With a single class level it only grow worse.
    Barbarian-Full BAB, D12 HD, 6+Int Skills, and almost entirely combat focused. With one level of Barb, seems a good match for a 5th level Barbarian build with a good pick for a LA 0 race, like Water Orc. The Dracotaur will be much better rounded, but in terms of combat should be roughly on par. So, I think LA +1 is about right.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-06-26 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    What are we comparing this thing to? because even at default it will wreck a level 4 fighter. And With a single class level it only grow worse.
    Fighter is T5. As noted, being better than a fighter doesn't take much. It's similar to saying "better than a monk".

    The nominal point of comparison would be a T3 or T4 melee type, so likely Barbarian or Warblade.
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  21. - Top - End - #771
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Are their bite and tail slap also in addition to their weilded weapon? If so that definitely a plus 1, 3 attacks with a very solid Chasis is very justifiable. Dragon are about the best hd you can get, good saves good skills full bab and d12. Those hd are better than a lot classes. A pity no reach but large size is still good. Very easy plus 1.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Fighter is T5. As noted, being better than a fighter doesn't take much. It's similar to saying "better than a monk".

    The nominal point of comparison would be a T3 or T4 melee type, so likely Barbarian or Warblade.
    Ya I at +1 LA a lvl 4 barbarian has slightly better attack and does more damage due to having martial weapon access, whereas, the drac has slightly better health, better saves, and comprable skill points.
    Warblade will have better battle field tactics and similar damage and attack but again slightly worse health, saves, and comparable skill points. I think if you are using the trap destroyer or wolf totem barbarian it would actually be more useful out of combat at this point due to low amount of magic items at these levels. The Drac's skills should help some if it goes gish, Dracotaur3/Factotem2/trapsmith1/swiftblade9 seems like a pretty strong build to me, maybe finishing it off with warblade+Jade Phoenix Mage or something.

  23. - Top - End - #773
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Yeah, I think I have to say a +2, after having looked at the statblock. Dragon dice are practically T4 on their own, and if you want to compare to a barbarian...

    Dragon: +3 Ref, +3 Will, +2 skills
    Barbarian: +4 STR/+4 CON/-2 AC for one encounter. Illiterate. +10 feet move. Never flat-footed. +1 to some stuff against traps, because that definitely matters.
    Dragon who is also a frickin' dracotaur: +3 Ref, +3 Will, +2 skills, +8 STR/+2 DEX/+6 CON/+2 INT/+2 CHA always, +20 feet move, +5 natural armour, two extra natural attacks (one is 1d8+str*1.5, one is 1d8+str*0.5), all the benefits of being large, darkvision 60 feet, immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis, low-light vision, and a bunch of other stuff.

    I'm struggling to find a reason that I would want to play a barbarian. The dracotaur has more strength and constitution as basic than the barbarian has while raging, has more movement than the barbarian, better saves (yes, better AC and saves against traps than the barbarian too) has a dex and int and cha bonus, oh, and you can't catch the barbarian flat-footed? Fine, my flat-footed AC is better than your AC.

    You want to talk martial initiators instead? Sure, what the hell 2nd-level manúuvre contests all of that? One of the ones that deals an extra 2d6 points of damage? That's basically the extra weapon damage I get just for being large, and that's before my bite or tail has anything to say about it. And in fact, they have quite a stirring dissertation on the matter.

    What else is T3... psychic warrior? Duskblade? Well, a fourth-level psychic warrior can... use a power to get the darkvision I have naturally? Use a power to deal less damage than my attack did anyway? And show me a 3rd, 4th, even 5th-level duskblade that can reliably go toe-to-toe with a dracotaur and I'll show you a hella optimised build.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    The primary natural attack becomes secondary (gaining only .5 * STR) when used alongside a manufactured weapon, which seems likely. Also, I don't think it's reasonable to compare a dracotaur to straight barbarian 4; it should be dracotaur barbarian 1-2 versus barbarian 2/X 3-4, because the barbarian class is two levels long. Also, water orc barbarian, or maybe azurin if advancing into Totem Rager.

    Dracotaur 3+1/barbarian 1 versus water orc barbarian 2/warblade 3 (warblade) seems like a reasonable comparison. Dracotaur has 4 points of extra strength, but the same to-hit (1 lost bab, -1 from Large size). Dracotaur has more skill points (~20), and slightly lower skill caps (but with UMD on there, utility is higher). Dracotaur comes out ahead on AC, hp, saves, and speed. Class features, of course, is where you'd start preferring the barbarian/warblade. Those 2nd-level maneuvers are pretty tasty, and Improved Trip is sweet. Advancing past ECL 5, you're looking at an 1.5 IL advantage (1 LA, .5 extra class level), which is almost a full level of maneuvers. Dracotaur is a strong contender in pure numbers, but loses a bit on versatility.

    Of course, barbarian/warblade is definitely in tier 3, and that might not be your comparison point. At tier 4, you might put the dracotaur at LA +2. In that case, the comparison is between dracotaur 3+2/barbarian 1 versus water orc barbarian 2/dungeoncrasher 4. The dracotaur is two levels behind Shock Trooper (for example), the to-hit difference has shifted in favour of the dungeoncrashing orc, and the orc has an iterative attack. Continuing past that, the lost base attack translates to 4 points of lost damage, balancing out the strength advantage, and the orc is ahead 1.66 feats (and is starting to PrC). I feel that the dracotaur is less convincing in this scenario, but still playable.

    Given the choice, I don't mind putting the dracotaur down as a strong tier 3--I prefer it to an average t4 at LA +2. So my verdict is LA +1 in t3.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2018-06-26 at 03:46 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Given the choice, I don't mind putting the dracotaur down as a strong tier 3--I prefer it to an average t4 at LA +2. So my verdict is LA +1 in t3.
    I would agree the dracotaur is a strong LA +1 and very low +2, honestly at +2 without buyoff it is only competitive with tier 5.
    Note that without taking armor proficiency the dracotaur doesn't get armor until it takes class levels; so at +2 your 2barbarian/3(4)warblade+maybe PRC, 2barbarian/4dungeoncrasher, or 6duskblade all have similar or better AC, more HP(note duskblade with no con bonus has 28hp everything else should be sitting 40-78hp range so in most cases over double), higher attack, more damage, similar saves, dracotaur is pure beatstick in combat and a squishier one at that whereas everyone else in that list has more and better options than just stand there and hit anything that doesn't kill you or escape, and honestly most of them can do more out of combat as well.

    Heck Barbarian5/warblade1 with wolf totem, spirit lion, trapkiller acfs, and pretty much any stance/maneuver combos will be all around better than dracotaur +2 LA in or out of battle with the exception of items requiring umd. If our bar is tier 3 I see no argument for LA +2 and even if we are Tier 4 you are on shaky ground and sitting on the floor of tier 4 questionably in tier 5.

    update: Also note at LA +2 everything above should be able to one shot you with power attack at level 6 and on the flip side you will most likely miss them all if you try and power attck them, that is a terrible position to be in as a beatstick.
    Last edited by liquidformat; 2018-06-26 at 04:25 PM. Reason: power attack comment

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    If half-levels could be given, I'd mark this +0.5. It's a smidge too strong for +0, but not really strong enough for +1 - nice bonuses, but nothing class features won't overwhelm in a few levels' time.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Dracotaur: +1. Not the most amazing +1 but it far exceeds an orc barbarian or an LA: +0 warblade. Str equal to orc barbarian in rage, Con and 3d12 he'll catch up and surpass in hps soon enough. Add significant natural armor, 2 secondary attacks in a full attack, and lots of skills no way can that be +0. I tend to balance around monster with 1 good class level, so Dracotaur Barb1 vs. Orc Barbarian or warblade 5.

    Was pondering swindlespitter for some time, going with consensus +0. I wanted to say +1 early but when I saw where he went low levels (dextrous skillmonkey, mostly) he can hit often but is very limited. Two awful RHD is penalty enough, losing a HD to the party as well makes him just sad.

  28. - Top - End - #778
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    You guys may recall my obsession with centaurs. I'll put my tangent in a spoiler this time, even though it's actually related to the dracotaur.

    Spoiler: Tangent about Centaurs
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Unfortunately, dracotaurs lack what makes their equine cousins great rather than merely good: easy access to mounted feats (something something Spirited Charge).
    The centaur is obviously well behind us, but I do kind of want to mention (again) that the Spirited Charge thing for centaurs is from Races of Faerun, which actually made several other changes to the centaur's stat block: reduced natural armor, lance proficiency, hooves as primary attacks, qualifying for Spirited Charge, Trample and Arcane Archer, and LA increased to +3. I don't think any of those things should be assumed, because they're not standard abilities for centaurs.

    Without those changes, how does a dracotaur measure up to a centaur? I think a dracotaur is pretty much equal or superior in every other way: three Good saves instead of 2, d12's instead of d8's (which puts hit points at dead even), better skill list and more skill points, better natural armor, better natural attacks that can benefit from some support, a couple immunities from Dragon type, an armor proficiency, slightly better stat array, and a (weak) special attack.

    This is a pretty potent monster. I think LA +1 is necessary. I don't think it needs LA +2, but I wouldn't think someone was crazy for thinking it does.

    One oddity: dracotaur PCs don't automatically speak Common: they have to select it as a bonus language, or pay skill points for it.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2018-06-26 at 06:52 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #779
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    Str +8 and Large weapons more than make up the difference in attack & damage that you'd lose from one or two beatstick levels.

    Dragon HD (6+Int) skills and +2 Int racial and access to UMD means a strong advantage over the usual Barbarian or Totemist skill spread.


    Let's see...

    Dracotaur 3 / Barbarian 1 / Fist of the Forest 3 vs. Barb 4 / FotF 3, now the Drac's +4 Con is also applied to AC, and the +5 natural armor stands out a bit more.

    Dracotaur 3 / Barbarian 1 / Totemist 2 / Totem Rager ++ -> Notably entering the PrC right on time. It's not my favorite PrC but it's quite viable as a T3.5 meat-shredder.

    Dracotaur 3 / Paladin of _____ 4 / Divine Crusader 1 / Sovereign Speaker 9 / ___ 2 -> Entering right on time, again.

    Dracotaur 3 / Psion 2 / Slayer 10 -> slightly worse in the long term compared to Ranger 1 / Psion 6, but significantly better than Ranger 3 / Psion 2 on a vanilla human. It'll probably play a bit like a Psychic Warrior, given how good it is at melee attacks -- and that's before considering how +8 Str and a Large weapon interacts with Deep Impact.


    Yeah these look like LA +2 is possible, and LA +1 is more than justified.

    Verdict: LA +1.5 but that's not helpful so uh... LA +2, and may the wisdom of crowds round +1.5 in the most just manner.

  30. - Top - End - #780
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

    With only 3 HD and a +int this thing could go Wizard and still get 9th right? That's pretty cool to know its not locked out of being a full caster if wanted. Sorry for that tangent.

    I agree with a lot of others. Feels like a very strong +0 or a weak +1.

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