The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Nifft]

CR 7, yet RHD 16.

Verdict: LA -0, nothing to dust wight home about.

[danielxcutter]

And another one bites the dust. *rimshot*

LA -0, next please?

[Caelestion]

Some day it'll be all wight on the night, folks!

[OgresAreCute]

Looks like this one will be collecting dust.

[Flickerdart]

Someday, there will be an undead worth playing! Probably a template, maybe something which uses turn resistance instead of HD bloat.

The templates have actually done well. Ghost is +3/+4, Skeleton is +1, Lich is +2, Vampire is +3. The bane wraith is a base creature, and playable at +0.

[Inevitability]

The templates have actually done well. Ghost is +3/+4, Skeleton is +1, Lich is +2, Vampire is +3. The bane wraith is a base creature, and playable at +0.

Don't forget the +1 LA tainted minion.

[Dimers]

Yes, LA -0. Its SoD may be a dustification, but it's no justification.

Someday, there will be an undead worth playing! Probably a template, maybe something which uses turn resistance instead of HD bloat.

I'm a fan of cryptspawn template from Magic of Faerun. It's basically just "your character, except undead".

[Remuko]

I'm a fan of cryptspawn template from Magic of Faerun. It's basically just "your character, except undead".

just looked it up and yeah you werent kidding. its very light on....everything.

[Inevitability]

Elemental, Storm

These guys are quite similar to the air elemental (reviewed years ago), so expect frequent comparisons.

Small Storm Elemental

Compared to small air elementals (which got +1 LA), small storm elementals have more constitution, less dexterity, less natural armor, a stronger slam, a considerably lower speed, no Improved Initiative, and better special abilities, such as the awesome Thunder and Lightning. While it seems that they're better at low ECLs, I can't help but feel like the air elemental is more viable at higher levels where 100 ft. fly speed is more relevant than 1/round 1d4 electricity damage. Even so, +1 LA here (but speak up, ones who'd prefer +0!).

Medium Storm Elemental

+0 LA, just like their airy counterparts. The raised fly speed is nice, the strength boost is too, and while the dexterity reduction hurts overall this remains on par with the air elemental.

Large Storm Elemental

8 RHD? No.

Huge and Larger Storm Elementals

No. Just no.

[DeTess]

You might want to take another look at the image you picked :P

Anyway, the small elemental has some nice special abilities, but they don't scale with class levels at all. At higher levels they'll basically be useless, as everything will be able to save against them and the damage will be very low. I'd compare this with a warlock or dragonfire Adept, and unless I'm missing something, they break about even in general combat power at the same level. The elemental does have some nice immunities, and a very nice flight speed, so I'd say the small one is either a strong +0 or a weak +1.

[Nifft]

[CENTER]Elemental, Storm

(snip object lesson in rehosting)

These guys are quite similar to the air elemental (reviewed years ago), so expect frequent comparisons.

Small Storm Elemental

Compared to small air elementals (which got +1 LA), small storm elementals have more constitution, less dexterity, less natural armor, a stronger slam, a considerably lower speed, no Improved Initiative, and better special abilities, such as the awesome Thunder and Lightning. While it seems that they're better at low ECLs, I can't help but feel like the air elemental is more viable at higher levels where 100 ft. fly speed is more relevant than 1/round 1d4 electricity damage. Even so, +1 LA here (but speak up, ones who'd prefer +0!).

Medium Storm Elemental

+0 LA, just like their airy counterparts. The raised fly speed is nice, the strength boost is too, and while the dexterity reduction hurts overall this remains on par with the air elemental.

For a PC, and especially at higher levels, the Electric and Sonic Healing power is going to be a lot more relevant than the +1d4 shock. I don't see it in your analysis at all.

Sonic immunity is rare enough to be a stand-out, since so few monsters even resist sonic damage -- which makes sonic attacks a player favorite. Being able to heal from those attacks offers an awful lot of party synergy.

Similarly, electric immunity is less common than cold or fire, so it's a relatively strong damage type.

There are some decent at-will electricity or sonic damage effects -- this PC turns those into unlimited downtime healing.

You might want to take another look at the image you picked :P

Indeed.

Spoiler: How it looks to people who aren't Inevitability

Show

Anyway, the small elemental has some nice special abilities, but they don't scale with class levels at all. At higher levels they'll basically be useless, as everything will be able to save against them and the damage will be very low. I'd compare this with a warlock or dragonfire Adept, and unless I'm missing something, they break about even in general combat power at the same level. The elemental does have some nice immunities, and a very nice flight speed, so I'd say the small one is either a strong +0 or a weak +1.

It's a flying thing that gets healed by the party's area effects, if the party is smart -- or if the enemy is immune to sonic & lightning, then this PC is probably being healed by the enemy's attacks.

Verdict: LA +1 / +1 / -0 / -0.

[ViperMagnum357]

The small version gains Elemental immunities, 40 ft perfect fly speed as (Ex), the two hardest elemental immunities to get, as healing to boot, Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat; weak net +0 on abilities with a serious Int hit and only +1 natural AC. Electric damage rider on melee and Air Mastery are both negligible, and the (Su) attack is niche, but the shock ability has some use. It does not scale with anything and proves a poor base for anything but a brawler/Initiator, but it provides abilities in 2 RHD that many Epic builds would kill for; I think this is balanced at LA +1 for small.

Medium is meh-those trashy Elemental RHD start to reaaally hurt, you lose your bonus feat for mediocre bonuses apart from an increase on Fly speed. Still, not horrible; the chassis is rather loaded, and you are only losing 1 BAB across the 4 RHD. I would say LA +0...on the weaker end, but just enough to make it a possible pick, though I could see -0 without much issue.

The rest of them from Large onward are LA -0 without much discussion-jumping straight to 8 RHD of a type on the wrong side of mediocre in return for minimal bonuses makes a discussion pointless.

[Covenant12]

Looks like I'm agreeing with consensus, +1/+0/-0/-0.

The small one is a weak +1, and won't be amazing at higher levels. Perfect flight and useful stats, even weapon finesse for free are quite nice. Then elemental type and solid immunities. I don't think it would be broken at +0, but I'm leaning to +1. The free damage will add up before level 5, though I'd prefer is some of it scaled.

Medium does respectable damage, is mobile, and durable enough in a 4-5 level party as 4HD elemental/4HD elemental with one class level. Doesn't scale wonderfully, but good stats, NA, decent flight speed with perfect maneuverability. Take any ToB class and I think he's fine. The 4 RHD that come with the type aren't great, but you only lose one BAB at least.

Larger is too many RHD, pretty much needs actual casting or amazing features.

[Dimers]

Likewise. +1, +0, -0, -0.

Spoiler: reasoning

Show

Flight is very nice at low levels and still a money-saver at high levels. Low, the healing barely matters because the damage types just won't come up; high, a bit of incidental hit point healing is nice but not enough to affect LA. Immunity to crits, poison, stunning, paralysis and drowning, that's all good. Crap RHD, not so good. Thunder And Lightning isn't party-friendly and does damage that's only consequential at 1st level unless your party likes kiting. The loss of Intelligence is kinda awful -- hope you don't like prestige classes, 'cause you ain't got the skill points to enter one.

Comparing the Small elemental plus a level of warlock to a level 4 human warlock, I'd say that's about even (though I'd still prefer the elemental any day -- I love flying). Small elemental plus 7 warlock versus human warlock 10, again about even. So, LA +1 for Small.

Medium has two more bad RHD, better land and fly speeds (?why?), better damage for slam and stormy stuff, more natural armor, different-not-better stats. Given the ability score change, I'd compare the Medium against a barbarian. 4 HD + 1 LA + barbarian1 against human barbarian 6? I'd take the human, no question. 4 HD + barbarian1 against a human barbarian 5? Sure, that's fair. Flight, NA, immunities, a little freebie damage and a natural weapon balance against class features, skills and feat.

[Lans]

So if a storm elemental is psychic and uses expansion, that ups its shock, thunder and lightning damage right? I think a case can be made for large being at least a +0 on a psionic build.

[OgresAreCute]

So if a storm elemental is psychic and uses expansion, that ups its shock, thunder and lightning damage right? I think a case can be made for large being at least a +0 on a psionic build.

Seems like it'd work, but I don't think it's enough to save it from being -0. You're essentially spending 9+ levels on a once-per-encounter AoE attack.

[liquidformat]

ya I agree, being slightly alright if you do a specific psionic build does not save large storm elementals from sucking. As is the thunder attack rather sucks, on the one hand it damages everyone around you in a burst and on the other it doesn't do enough damage to be very helpful. The saving grace for the small and medium storm is really the elemental healing. +1, +0, -0, -0

On a side note I think a storm elemental and shambling mound would have good synergy, maybe throw a stormcaster into the mix for giggles?

[Inevitability]

Ephemeral Swarm

ephemeral
ɪˈfɛm(ə)r(ə)l,ɪˈfiːm(ə)r(ə)l
adjective
1. lasting for a very short time.

Not only is this an undead swarm, it's an incorporeal undead swarm! This rare combination of types and subtypes is commonly referred to as 'all the immunities'.

The ability scores are a mixed bag. Intelligence is ridiculously low, wisdom is average, and strength and constitution literally nonexistent, but dexterity and charisma both get a decent +8 bonus.

In violation of the actual swarm rules, the ephemeral swarm deals 1d6 strength damage to creatures caught within it. The typical Distraction ability works as usual.

However, considering the 12 undead RHD that come with playing a creature like this, I can't in good faith assign more than -0 here. Being an incorporeal undead swarm may be nifty, but at this cost it's not worth it.

[liquidformat]

-0 it is, too bad it isn't around 5-6 rhd it would be pretty cool in that case. On a side note I am amused by the derpy one in the middle left side of the picture.

[ViperMagnum357]

I had passed this over during my last read-through of the MM3: 12 Undead RHD + Swarm was all I though I needed to see to make a judgment. Actually looking at it, this seems more interesting than I assumed. A type of no-save Strength damage that also requires no attack roll, and does not do business with SR? That is something to respect, even if it is not much. Unfortunately, as a character there are just so many things you have to work around to meaningfully contribute: the Int problem, having a permanently Incorporeal PC, and of course 12 RHD in a 3 way tie for worst chassis.

I say LA -0 for the Ephemeral Swarm, but this would be an interesting exercise in shaving RHD to reach parity with class levels. There are just too many hoops to jump through as written.

[Celestia]

This would be a very interesting monster to throw at the PCs, but would be virtually unusable as a PC.

[javcs]

If it didn't have so many HD that it's unquestionably -0, it'd need a DM caution marking, though it still might.

[Nifft]

Verdict: LA -0* because it's either unplayable or it's not, depending -- but it's not going to be competitive even if it is made playable.

[Inevitability]

Verdict: LA -0* because it's either unplayable or it's not, depending -- but it's not going to be competitive even if it is made playable.

Making this playable is... very easy actually. It may have 2 intelligence, but because its type doesn't mandate a maximum int score it can just assign anything above 10 in the stat and end up with PC-grade smarts.

Being undead and incorporeal obviously doesn't prevent PC-hood either, and being a swarm just makes it difficult to play, not unplayable (not saying it'll be strong, but it'll be playable).

[Nifft]

Making this playable is... very easy actually. It may have 2 intelligence, but because its type doesn't mandate a maximum int score it can just assign anything above 10 in the stat and end up with PC-grade smarts.

Who said anything about the Int score?

Did you mean to quote someone else?

[Inevitability]

Who said anything about the Int score?

Did you mean to quote someone else?

I must've misunderstood: my apologies.

[Nifft]

I must've misunderstood: my apologies.

No problem. Maybe someone else did say something about Int? Go forth and smite their opinion with my blessing.

I think it's likely to be unplayable because of its subtypes, and because 12 RHD doesn't give nearly enough room to compensate for them nor leverage them.

[ViperMagnum357]

No problem. Maybe someone else did say something about Int? Go forth and smite their opinion with my blessing.

I think it's likely to be unplayable because of its subtypes, and because 12 RHD doesn't give nearly enough room to compensate for them nor leverage them.

I mentioned the Int, mostly because it moves the net abilities from +16 to +8 relative to a mindless Undead that could likely get a free 10 roll from an awakening effect. Even with 2 complete ability dumps, +8 net is what I would consider balanced for roughly 2 RHD. Then you are losing 1 iterative, and have to net +5 BAB on your first eight class levels to gain your 3rd iterative around the time a caster is getting their 9ths-yuck.

[Svata]

I'd be OK with it at like 7 or 8 RHD even (not for a +1, maybe, but a +0, sure). But 12 is too many. -0.

[Celestia]

This is basically a wallflower character. You can't be killed (at least not easily), but you also can't contribute anything worthwhile. You're just there, munching on the free XPs. It's perfect for someone who doesn't want to actually play the game.