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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    ClericGuy

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    Default 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    An idea I've been toying with is running a game where levels cap out at 11th.

    As a DM of a long (3 year) running campaign, and with players all now 20th(+) the game really becomes Marvels Avengers at this point. The whole party can fly, alter reality, polymorph into Pit fiends etc. The martials are spitting out enough damage each round to drop most CR appropriate foes rather simply.

    There are epic boons in play, most PCs have an ability score in the 22-24 range, and the party have several potent magic items, including but not limited to the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords, a fragment of the Rod of Seven Parts, a sphere of annhilation, robes of the archmagi, staff of the archmagi, and a few +3 weapons and armor.

    Its epic stuff, but I was wondering how a lower power campaign might play out. One where you cap out at 11th level (keeping the more insane stuff at higher levels out) similar to how AD&D and BECMI capped at around 9-12th level ('name' level for you fellow Grognards out there).

    For those that werent playing back in the day, effectively once you hit around 10th level, you stopped getting new hit dice and many class features and largely only got fixed hit points (and little else) post this level.

    My only concern is the game might get a bit boring post 11th with this method. Although it does speed up, so it might not be too bad.

    My current plan is to stop all advancement from class (and cantrip scaling) at 11th, and then grant 3 HP per level past 11th, and increase proficiency bonus at the same rate (+1/4levels). I'll also move Lifedrinker to 11th as a Blade Warlock capstone.

    Thoughts? Anything I'm missing?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    You want to have the carrot of perpetual advancement but you think that the endgame of level 12+ is too much? An endgame 95% of tables don't reach when starting from level 1?

    If you're dissatisfied with the power level endpoint of 5E D&D AND you want to have gradual advancement that can go on for several years which doesn't leave people at Marvel's Avengers, you should really be running a different gaming system, to be perfectly honest. WHFRPG or even Torchbearer would be more up your alley.

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    The old "E6" variant had you continue gaining feats. I would do something similar, I think-- every so many exp, characters gain an ASI. That allows some continued development and refinement without blowing anything too far open.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Another option is to (roughly double?) the amount of XP required per level, have 11th be the final level 'cap' instead of 20th, and increase the proficiency bonus / level progression to be (1/2 levels) instead of (1/4 levels) and look like this:

    1 +2
    2 +2
    3 +3
    4 +3
    5 +4
    6 +4
    7 +5
    8 +5
    9 +6
    10 +6
    11 +7

    That way there is slower progression, and a cap on the higher level shenanigans, but also a more noticeable improvement of proficiency bonus as one levels up.

    Expertise class feature could also be HR/d to provide a flat +3 bonus to a skill (making your bonus range from +5 to +10, +/- an additional 5 from ability score).

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Make a new Moderate Boons table to give them. A lot of the Epic Boons are actually bad enough to stick them in too.

    This is very similar to the old E6, which is funny because it is in a game that is basically E6 stretched way out.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    You want to have the carrot of perpetual advancement but you think that the endgame of level 12+ is too much? An endgame 95% of tables don't reach when starting from level 1?

    If you're dissatisfied with the power level endpoint of 5E D&D AND you want to have gradual advancement that can go on for several years which doesn't leave people at Marvel's Avengers, you should really be running a different gaming system, to be perfectly honest. WHFRPG or even Torchbearer would be more up your alley.
    Im not overly concerned with other tables mate. Im concerned with mine. My table has reached 20th level (and a few PCs have from 1-3 epic boons as well).

    Ive run and played in high level campaigns in DnD in the past (BECMI, AD&D, 2E, 3.5E, and now 5E) and I havent seen the same power levels in any game other than 3E.

    Not that there is anything wrong with that in the current campagin; the PCs are about to face down Kyuss (CR 30) and hopefully stop the Age of Worms. Im just thinking out loud for a future campaign, that is intended to be a bit more gritty and less superpowered.

    And yes, Ive played many other 'fantasy' systems. Rolemaster, MERP, Savage Worlds, WHFRP, Ars Magica etc. I'd like to constrain this to DnD 5e if possible, seeing if I cant tweak the 5E engine to give me what I want, rather than teach up the players on a new system entirely.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Make a new Moderate Boons table to give them. A lot of the Epic Boons are actually bad enough to stick them in too.

    This is very similar to the old E6, which is funny because it is in a game that is basically E6 stretched way out.
    I reckon 11th level provides the best 'break point' over 6th level. All single classes get something awesome at 11th (ditto 5th). 3 attacks/ round, improved divine smite, 6th level spells etc. It makes a single dip rather punishing (miss those 6th level spells) but gives enough levels to play around with MC combos.

    At 6th level, I dont hink one has enough room to move and flesh out a character. MCing cripples you barring a single level dip (any more and you miss your 5th level power up).

    The neckbeard in me likes it for legacy reasons. BECMI and AD&D largely capped out at around 11th ('name') level. It resonates with earlier editions and I kind of like that.

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    For those that werent playing back in the day, effectively once you hit around 10th level, you stopped getting new hit dice and many class features and largely only got fixed hit points (and little else) post this level.
    For the spell casters, you got higher level spells once Greyhawk was released. (Rob Conley suggested to me elsewhere that OD&D was most commonly played was 3 BB plus Greyhawk until AD&D came out).

    One of the few things good about the 1e UA was the additional melee attacks per round for fighters as you went up levels.

    There were some niche skills for Monks, for example, at levels above 11. That said, Druids and Monks had to get into duels to advance levels at some point. Rangers got better spells after level 8, and well beyond that.

    For the four basic classes, though, after 11/name level (Varying from 8-11) your HP went up in small numbers but some other things, like "to hit" and saving throws could still improve.
    ---------------------
    Oops, didn't mean to leave two posts.
    ------------------
    It would seem to me that your challenges for the 20th level and beyond are how you mix exotic foes that they are to defeat. There are probably some killer combinations you can come up with to really test them.

    As to incentives, I'd say the best incentive is fun. :)

    (There is always the choice to have the campaign end and you play, while one of the others DMs?)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2018-03-04 at 03:39 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Basically replacing the XP/ level/ proficiency bonus advancement chart from this:

    0 1 +2
    300 2 +2
    900 3 +2
    2,700 4 +2
    6,500 5 +3
    14,000 6 +3
    23,000 7 +3
    34,000 8 +3
    48,000 9 +4
    64,000 10 +4
    85,000 11 +4

    To this:

    0 1 +2
    500 2 +2
    2,000 3 +3
    5,000 4 +3
    10,000 5 +4
    25,000 6 +4
    50,000 7 +5
    80,000 8 +5
    115,000 9 +6
    155,000 10 +6
    200,000 11 +7

    Every +50,000 XP past 11th ('name') level = +3 HP (no Con applies)
    Every +100,000 XP past 11th ('name') level = +1 proficiency bonus (Maximum bonus +10 at 500,000).

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    For the spell casters, you got higher level spells once Greyhawk was released. (Rob Conley suggested to me elsewhere that OD&D was most commonly played was 3 BB plus Greyhawk until AD&D came out).

    One of the few things good about the 1e UA was the additional melee attacks per round for fighters as you went up levels.
    UA also added some high level stuff as well. From memory a Cavalier using his weapon of choice, and a Fighter with 'double specialization' could get up to 3 attacks/ round.

    Again; it has nice synergy with an 11th level cap (3/ attacks per round).

    For the four basic classes, though, after 11/name level (Varying from 8-11) your HP went up in small numbers but some other things, like "to hit" and saving throws could still improve.
    Yeah. It varied from class to class. But roughly 11th or thereabouts was name level for most classes. Fixed HP and no Con modifier post 11th.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    It would seem to me that your challenges for the 20th level and beyond are how you mix exotic foes that they are to defeat. There are probably some killer combinations you can come up with to really test them.

    As to incentives, I'd say the best incentive is fun. :)

    (There is always the choice to have the campaign end and you play, while one of the others DMs?)
    Im the main DM. One of the other guys is running a secondary campaign for PotA. Im playing a shadowvar (half elf) Hexblade/ Shadow sorcerer Blade-lock in it. Last surviving member of the Tanthul bloodline after Elminster nuked the City of Shade. Has turned his back on Shar, and now answers to a foreign power that whispers in his mind from the Shadowfell... the Raven Queen (seeking to obtain a foothold in Faerun and usurp Shars dominion over the Shadowfell). She even gifted me this nifty black greatsword to do her will....

    Im more thinking for my next campaign. I want to bring a bit of 'old school' back into the game for it, and cap out the high level shennanigans, and slow the pace down a bit.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Lets presume I want to do this.

    Any problems one can see from doing it? I'm moving Lifedrinker invocation from 12th to 11th level (which is arguably where it should have been in any event).

    It leaves enough wriggle room for Rogues and Fighters to benefit from +1 feat/ ASI (at 6th for Fighters and 10th for Rogues) and for cantrips to scale to 11th. Warlocks get a single Arcanum of 6th level and 3/slots short rest as a capstone.

    All classes get something nice at 11th really. The 11th level cap and slower advancement makes single classing more of a strong option over dips also. Those dips always cost you.

    Most potent spells are in play (Raise dead etc) but the redaction of 7th+ level spells leaves out teleport, plane shift, wish, simulacrum, true polymorph etc. Polymorph is also nixed with a Maximum CR cap of 11th.

    Anything Im missing? Anything that might skew the game or a class badly?

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    An idea I've been toying with is running a game where levels cap out at 11th.....

    Sounds cool to me, I prefer lower levels in 5e, and the only "Avengers" I've liked had Diana Rigg starring in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    ...Rob Conley suggested to me elsewhere that OD&D was most commonly played was 3 BB plus Greyhawk until AD&D came out....

    Thanks for clueing me in to that blog @KorvinStarmast!

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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Ive mentioned it in the forum before, but Zman created a pretty nice E10 variant. You may be able to use his concepts or pick his mind in creating an E11 system of your own. He uses an increased amount of feats, and feats as the currency in which people buy multiclassing. Either way take a look and see if it fits your needs.

    http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/By9iD8H0e

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    All classes get something nice at 11th really.
    The Open Hand monk sobs in a corner. But pretty much.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcangel4774 View Post
    Ive mentioned it in the forum before, but Zman created a pretty nice E10 variant. You may be able to use his concepts or pick his mind in creating an E11 system of your own. He uses an increased amount of feats, and feats as the currency in which people buy multiclassing. Either way take a look and see if it fits your needs.

    http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/By9iD8H0e
    11th as a cut off feels better for mine. The classes 11th level abilities serve as nice capstones also.

    With that set as the capstone, I dont really want people buying multiclassing. Thanks to delayed progression (roughly double XP needed to level) and the hard cap at 11th (and the potency of those abilities) multiclassing comes with its own price.

    But thanks for the heads up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Dragon View Post
    The Open Hand monk sobs in a corner. But pretty much.
    Agree. I give OHM's in my game the choice of one of the following 'style mastery' abilities (they can still choose tranquility if they want):

    Flowing Defence
    At 11th level, if an adjacent creature you can see misses you with a melee
    attack, you can spend 1 point of Ki to make an immediate
    unarmed attack against that creature as a reaction. If you hit
    your opponent and they are no more than one size larger than
    you, they must succeed in a Strength save or be knocked
    prone and have their movement reduced to 0 until the start of
    their next turn.

    Improved grapple
    At 11th level you gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you
    strike a creature not more than one size larger than you with
    an unarmed strike, you can spend 1 point of Ki as a reaction
    to attempt to grapple the creature. You have advantage on
    attacks against a creature you are grappling.

    Whirlwind Attack
    At 11th level, you can use your action to make a melee
    weapon attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet
    of you, with a separate attack roll for each target. Each attack
    that hits deals an extra +1d8 points of weapon damage.

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    Goblin

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    11 is a nice cut off. However make it a clean cut. Just boons or feats after. No more HP, unless they take toughness, which can now be taken more than once.

    All in all I wish my group would play something like this. I prefer grittier lower powered games but they like higher power.

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Callin View Post
    .....I wish my group would play something like this. I prefer grittier lower powered games but they like higher power.

    I wish more games would still start at first level again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Personally if I were to do this, I would put in a way for classes to get one of their higher level abilities, probably as an alternate to a boon or an asi. Also I'd move the 12 asi to 11 to make 11 feel like a real capstone.

    Allow the druid to go on a quest for an archdruid to get their level 18 ability. Warlocks to get their Fourth spell slot. Wizards a 1st level spell mastery, stuff like that.

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Callin View Post
    11 is a nice cut off. However make it a clean cut. Just boons or feats after. No more HP, unless they take toughness, which can now be taken more than once.

    All in all I wish my group would play something like this. I prefer grittier lower powered games but they like higher power.
    My current plan is just going with the 3 HP per 50,000 xp past 11th (and maybe an increase in proficiency bonus, but still undecided on that one; leaning towards a cap of +7 at 11th level).

    By using the XP chart above, PCs advancement is roughly twice as slow as default (but with proficiency bonus increasing at a slightly higher rate to compensate.

    They dont hit 11th level until 200,000xp under the above chart, which is around the same time they would be hitting 16-17th level in a normal game (195-225,000).

    At 355,000 xp, they're 11th level with +9 HP each and a proficiency bonus of +7, instead of 20th level and bonus of +6.

    Seeing as there is such a delay advancing, I would grant them all a feat at 1st level also, (no Vumans, only Humans, who also get an extra skill at 1st in addition to +1's to all stats).

    3d6 in order should be the stat generation method also (discard less than 6, change one ability score to 13 if desired).

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    An idea I've been toying with is running a game where levels cap out at 11th.
    ...
    Thoughts? Anything I'm missing?
    I wouldn't try capping the levels. I would just slow advancement such that you can't reach them realistically.

    Figure out how long you want to run the campaign for (say 6 months, 12 months, 24 months, etc.). Come up with an XP system which pretty much caps you at that. Say 300xp per session (so two years gets you to around 9th), or number of sessions equal to your current level (1 for 2nd, 2 more for 3rd, etc. say 1.5 years for 11th). By the time they reach 10th, they are looking at three months (12 sessions) to reach 12th-level. When progress is that slow... the group will probably just want to wrap things up.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Basically replacing the XP/ level/ proficiency bonus advancement chart from this:

    0 1 +2
    300 2 +2
    900 3 +2
    2,700 4 +2
    6,500 5 +3
    14,000 6 +3
    23,000 7 +3
    34,000 8 +3
    48,000 9 +4
    64,000 10 +4
    85,000 11 +4

    To this:

    0 1 +2
    500 2 +2
    2,000 3 +3
    5,000 4 +3
    10,000 5 +4
    25,000 6 +4
    50,000 7 +5
    80,000 8 +5
    115,000 9 +6
    155,000 10 +6
    200,000 11 +7

    Every +50,000 XP past 11th ('name') level = +3 HP (no Con applies)
    Every +100,000 XP past 11th ('name') level = +1 proficiency bonus (Maximum bonus +10 at 500,000).
    Or maybe a one-use legendary save or similar every 10kxp instead, for resources that burn rather than just accumulate? This also works with a faster leveling table, and allows bursts of true epicness that require husbanding.

    I agree that level 11 makes a fine cap, better than 6 or 10.

    Anyway,

    Ken

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Thanks for clueing me in to that blog @KorvinStarmast!
    Rob's a pretty sharp guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    You might want to check out Zman's E10 variant rules. It takes characters to level 10, but with a twist as you get many feats which you can use to multiclass. It reduces the powerlevel, but still makes it fun to play. He has a thread on this forum somewhere, but I'm typing this from my mobile and I don't know how to post the link. Anyway, you'll be able to find it easily by searching.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    You don't want to halt PC progression. What you should do, I think, is decide which things you wish to stop scaling and at what point.

    Let's say you decide hit points and spell slot levels should stop at tenth and fifth level, respectively. This is a fairly common sentiment. In that case, players should still gain features past those levels and you should come up with something else for casters to get (such as additional lower level slots).

    If you do this then there are certain creatures your players will never be able to fight, such as Tiamat.

    Before doing anything this major, think through exactly what you want to accomplish with it and ensure your players are on board.
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Go for it! Or you can change the scope of the game from alpha strike squards to domain management. Or alter the XP progression tables. Or alter what provides XP (gold spent for Fame for XP; killing weaker things eventually has diminishjng return until it equals 0 XP per encounter,).

    Basically things that either divide focused power or slow power progression, so you can linger in the sweet spot longer.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    I think the proposed 11th level cap is a great idea. Certainly better than traditional 1-20.
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    I would completely remove 6th level spells from the game...

    I would make Bard College's Lv14 their Lv11 Capstone
    I would make Sorcerer's Lv14 their Lv11 Capstone
    I would make Warlock's Lv14 their Lv11 Capstone
    I would make Wizard's Lv14 their Lv11 Captstone


    Wait, what about Clerics?
    The problem with Clerics is that they have Lv17 Features instead of Lv14 Features; Which are significantly more powerful than the other casters.
    but... Destroy Undead CR2 isn't really exciting...
    So... I lied; Cleric will gain Lv6 Spells as their Lv11 Feature?

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    ClericGuy

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    Aug 2014

    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Running ToA as my next campaign, and it caps at 11th. Im thinking this could be a good place to test this rule.

    Will be inserting many of the dungeons from TftYP in there as well. Sandbox.

    They all fit in really nicely. In a nutshell I'll be locating the Sunless citadel outside Baldurs gate, the PCs then find a map to the Forge of Fury [located in Chult, in one of the mines next to Port Nyanzur about 2-3 hexes from the city] in the Citadel, head to Baldurs gate, get contacted by the NPC wizard under the death curse, then get telported to Chult.

    In the Forge, the PCs find a map to the Dwarven colonies to the south (that Tinder destroyed) and reference to a red dragon.

    From there I can insert Lost Shrine of Tamochan easy peasy in any hex (fits seamlessly), the Tomb of Horrors in the swamp in the middle of the map (fits seamlessly), Against the Giants can be slightly refluffed to feature the Giants who are looking for Artus and the Ring of Winter, White Plume Mountain can be inserted to the south in the Volcano, and Trouble in Thay can be easily inserted by reference to the Red Wizards in and about Omu (the vault itself houses Aceraks phylactery).

    The campaign is for PCs of 1st-11th (and designed to be played on 'hard mode') so it meshes with the idea propsed in this thread.

    I intend to use the slower advancement listed above (plus the death curse, and toggle meat grinder mode on, and a few other tweaks to protect bounded accuracy such as no stacking + magic armor and shields, or bows and ammo, or stacking items that increase save DC/ spell attack rolls.

    There will be a few other tweaks as well such as reduced benefits from resting [2 x 5 minute short rests/ per long rest allowed, each short rest only allows for max 1/2 HD spend [round up], long rests no longer auto replenish HP, and instead restore 1/2 expended HD [round up], which can be spent at the end of the rest, and only restores 1 slot of each of levels 1-5, plus 1 slot of levels 6+].

    Ive also decided on replacing core Proficiency bonus for PCs with: levels 1-3 [+2], levels 4-6 [+3], levels 7-9 [+4], levels 10-11 [+5]. Im coupling this with an XP chart that reguires around double the required XP to advance [so PCs at 11th level, have enough XP to be 17th level under core rules]. Proficeincy bonus advances at the normal rate from the players perspective, but class features and higher level abilities advance slower.

    Im now trying to come up with a system whereby a PC can get a boon of some kind at every [lots-o-XP] beyond 11th.

    Ideally those boons should be worth around half a level (Increase CL by one, or gain HP kind of thing).

    Thoughts?

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    I would completely remove 6th level spells from the game...

    I would make Bard College's Lv14 their Lv11 Capstone
    I would make Sorcerer's Lv14 their Lv11 Capstone
    I would make Warlock's Lv14 their Lv11 Capstone
    I would make Wizard's Lv14 their Lv11 Captstone


    Wait, what about Clerics?
    The problem with Clerics is that they have Lv17 Features instead of Lv14 Features; Which are significantly more powerful than the other casters.
    but... Destroy Undead CR2 isn't really exciting...
    So... I lied; Cleric will gain Lv6 Spells as their Lv11 Feature?
    Trouble is that quite a few iconic and perfectly reasonable spells, such as True Seeing, are 6th level and up. There's also Delayed Blast Fireball, Plane Shift, Gate, Reverse Gravity, Antimagic Field...plenty of high level spells are fine and don't have too much of an effect on balance. It's just spells like Wish, Forcecage, and Foresight that mess up class balance.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    ClericGuy

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    Aug 2014

    Default Re: 5E/11 - Capping class features at 11th level

    QUOTE=Easy_Lee;22901345]Trouble is that quite a few iconic and perfectly reasonable spells, such as True Seeing, are 6th level and up. There's also Delayed Blast Fireball, Plane Shift, Gate, Reverse Gravity, Antimagic Field...plenty of high level spells are fine and don't have too much of an effect on balance.
    Capping at 6th level spells stops teleport and plane shift, calling meteors from the sky, altering reality via wish etc. I see that as a feature, not a bug. It leads to a lower magic game, which is more than appropriate for some games.

    Im OK with heroic levels of play, but post 11th level the game becomes Marvels Avengers meets DC. Everyone is flying, altering reality, regenerating, reversing time, teleporting around the place and going toe to toe with the Balrog unarmed and winning inside a few seconds.

    Im looking for a more gritty, Marvels Defenders level of PC power. Hence the cap.

    Plus it resonates with earlier editions, and Im a sucker for nostalgia.

    It's just spells like Wish, Forcecage, and Foresight that mess up class balance.
    Havent had a problem with Forcecage at all. Have a Warlock that uses it. Tried it on a lich who misty stepped out. Used it to great effect on a Death Knight in an epic moment though. Uses a high level slot of which you dont get many. Leaves a problem behind that still needs to be dealt with in any event.

    I do have problems with Simulacrum effectively doubling a PCs resources for GP expenditure.

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