General Anime/Manga Discussion 15: The Beach Episode

[JCarter426]

Same, no information on ANN. But, it doesn't premier until tomorrow, so there's still hope. Really want this one to be available (already getting sick of all these shows on Amazon I wanna watch). Definitely not gonna be dubbed, I bet. Same issue right now with Index season 3. People expect Funimation to simuldub it, but episode one has already aired with nobody even simulcasting it in the U.S.

Probably not the same issue. Beelzebub possibly just didn't get picked up by anybody. Somebody had to draw the short straw. A shame, though. It sounded interesting and I hope I don't forget to check it out in the distant future.

Index though is obviously too mainstream for that to happen. Crunchyroll is streaming it "worldwide except Asia, North America, Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa" (their words) and the rumor is either another site swiped the license for the rest of the world or the details of the license are still being hashed out.

Akenasu Shoujo parallel universes, alternate versions of yourself, strange monsters and probable magical girls. I'm gonna see where this one is heading.

I was reserving comment until I after I caught up with the second episode, but it's interesting so far. I want to say "especially interesting for a mobile game tie-in" but it really is interesting as its own thing so that qualifier would be a little insulting.

Bunny girl senpai I'm surprised they made an anime after the manga was finished.

According to the internets, the light novels are still ongoing.

[Kato]

So I've been watching the first episodes of "that time I got reincarnated as a slime" and the first three episodes of "in another world with my smartphone" from a while ago.. And it's amazing how two shows with such a similar premise can be so different in quality. I don't want to say Smartphone is a terrible show, but it is ungodly bland. I mean, the hero is nice enough, being humble about his obvious OP powers and just a little bit pervy despite the girls pretty much thrown at him, but while it's not all bad, it still feels like a waste of a really cool premise.
Slime only had two episodes, is clearly heading towards the OP hero path, too, and tries much less hard to make you laugh, but it still does a much better job at it. (I know Overlord took roughly the same premise and went a third way, doing fine mostly, but these two still seem much more comparable to me)

[Pendulous]

Good news, Crunchyroll confirmed to have "As Miss Beelzebub Likes It" https://twitter.com/Crunchyroll/stat...46051460239361

[JCarter426]

I don't want to say Smartphone is a terrible show

Don't you, though? Don't you?

I didn't watch it because I'd already heard of all the blandness but at least so far the slime isn't succumbing to that. I can't say if it's quite impressed me yet, but at least part of that is because I've been reading So I'm a Spider, So What? and that has the advantage of being written after the genre was established and being done well on top of that. But I'm enjoying the slime so far too.

Good news, Crunchyroll confirmed to have "As Miss Beelzebub Likes It"

Heh, I suppose it wouldn't be the anime business if they finish things at the last minute. Good to hear.

[Kato]

Don't you, though? Don't you?

I didn't watch it because I'd already heard of all the blandness but at least so far the slime isn't succumbing to that. I can't say if it's quite impressed me yet, but at least part of that is because I've been reading So I'm a Spider, So What? and that has the advantage of being written after the genre was established and being done well on top of that. But I'm enjoying the slime so far too.

I don't know, I stopped after episode three because there's much better stuff I need to catch up on. But just being bland isn't the same as terrible. It might get better, it might get worse. I'll probably never find out

Goblin Slayer is funny for me because I half expect Redcloack to be the final boss

It's pretty much just the once; it establishes why goblins are such a scourge to the common people (even if higher level adventurers see them as a non-issue) and gives a context for Goblin Slayer's otherwise potentially off-putting disdain for and brutality against the goblins, who might otherwise be sympathized with.

The series also gets considerably less dark as time goes on and GS starts making some friends.

I feel I could have hated the goblins just fine if they'd have killed and maybe eaten people, but the rape is... why are human women attractive to little green monsters? It just seems stupid and pointless to have it, while I do see the argument to make them look even worse.

Eh, I don't think we'll get a Redcloak like character but if I had to take a guess after the first episode, than the twist is..

Spoiler

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He's a goblins, isn't he?

[Pendulous]

Crunchyroll and Funimation finally picked up the license to Index 3, so fret not. I really should probably watch the first two at some point, since I've already seen Railgun (can't wait for season 3 of that), but I'm currently watching Ouran High School Host Club.

Another current show, Merc Storia, aired today. Was cute and fun, with a nice premise of monsters and humans living together. Based off a mobile game of course, so we'll see how it goes.

[Rynjin]

I feel I could have hated the goblins just fine if they'd have killed and maybe eaten people, but the rape is... why are human women attractive to little green monsters? It just seems stupid and pointless to have it, while I do see the argument to make them look even worse.

Murder and even cannibalism are weirdly forgivable to the human psyche, in part because they can be explained away as necessity. You could potentially pass it off as self defense (adventurers ARE invading their homes after all, and spare little time to communicate before attacking) and lack of resources (meat is meat, and hard to come by underground).

Rape, however, is...gratuitous. There's no passing it off as a cultural quirk, misunderstanding, or a matter of necessity, it's just a real, visceral example of their cruelty.

It's a necessity for the series to work that nobody even considers sympathizing with the goblins in any capacity. Otherwise, Goblin Slayer is essentially unlikable; if the goblins are anything other than irredeemable monsters from birth, Goblin Slayer is a psychopathic racist without pity or remorse that is willing to slay even the infants of the race he hates so much without a second thought, and repeatedly professes a desire for their wholesale genocide. It looks like a vendetta (which it SORT of is, but also not) rather than a grim necessity.

I'm with you on general principle; rape is over-used as a dramatic device and I feel even great series like Berserk are marred by it occurring so often it becomes rote, but this is one of the few examples where I think it is actually a CRITICAL moment for establishing the context and premise of the setting.

[HandofShadows]

I feel I could have hated the goblins just fine if they'd have killed and maybe eaten people, but the rape is... why are human women attractive to little green monsters? It just seems stupid and pointless to have it, while I do see the argument to make them look even worse.

This kind of rape isn't about finding the victim attractive. It's about using sex as a weapon and showing power over the victim. That's what rapists like this get their sick gratification from, not the act of "sex". It's all about power and abuse and puts the goblins way on the other side of the moral event horizon.

[LaZodiac]

Murder and even cannibalism are weirdly forgivable to the human psyche, in part because they can be explained away as necessity. You could potentially pass it off as self defense (adventurers ARE invading their homes after all, and spare little time to communicate before attacking) and lack of resources (meat is meat, and hard to come by underground).

Rape, however, is...gratuitous. There's no passing it off as a cultural quirk, misunderstanding, or a matter of necessity, it's just a real, visceral example of their cruelty.

It's a necessity for the series to work that nobody even considers sympathizing with the goblins in any capacity. Otherwise, Goblin Slayer is essentially unlikable; if the goblins are anything other than irredeemable monsters from birth, Goblin Slayer is a psychopathic racist without pity or remorse that is willing to slay even the infants of the race he hates so much without a second thought, and repeatedly professes a desire for their wholesale genocide. It looks like a vendetta (which it SORT of is, but also not) rather than a grim necessity.

I'm with you on general principle; rape is over-used as a dramatic device and I feel even great series like Berserk are marred by it occurring so often it becomes rote, but this is one of the few examples where I think it is actually a CRITICAL moment for establishing the context and premise of the setting.

Have we considered: maybe Goblin Slayer is just bad?

[Rynjin]

Have we considered: maybe Goblin Slayer is just bad?

I enjoyed it up to the point I caught up with the manga.

[deuterio12]

This kind of rape isn't about finding the victim attractive. It's about using sex as a weapon and showing power over the victim. That's what rapists like this get their sick gratification from, not the act of "sex". It's all about power and abuse and puts the goblins way on the other side of the moral event horizon.

Not all since there's the bit where the goblins use it to produce more goblins. Speaking of which I don't think we ever see any female goblins, so for all we know it's the only way the goblins can multiply.

If that makes you ask how did goblins came to be in the first place, well later on there's hints their origin is far from natural.

[JCarter426]

I feel I could have hated the goblins just fine if they'd have killed and maybe eaten people, but the rape is... why are human women attractive to little green monsters?

Plenty of animals (e.g. horses, dolphins) have been known to sexually assault humans. It's not so farfetched.

I'm not watching Goblin Slayer though so I can't comment on the rest of it.

[Lethologica]

Murder and even cannibalism are weirdly forgivable to the human psyche, in part because they can be explained away as necessity. You could potentially pass it off as self defense (adventurers ARE invading their homes after all, and spare little time to communicate before attacking) and lack of resources (meat is meat, and hard to come by underground).

Rape, however, is...gratuitous. There's no passing it off as a cultural quirk, misunderstanding, or a matter of necessity, it's just a real, visceral example of their cruelty.

It's a necessity for the series to work that nobody even considers sympathizing with the goblins in any capacity. Otherwise, Goblin Slayer is essentially unlikable; if the goblins are anything other than irredeemable monsters from birth, Goblin Slayer is a psychopathic racist without pity or remorse that is willing to slay even the infants of the race he hates so much without a second thought, and repeatedly professes a desire for their wholesale genocide. It looks like a vendetta (which it SORT of is, but also not) rather than a grim necessity.

I'm with you on general principle; rape is over-used as a dramatic device and I feel even great series like Berserk are marred by it occurring so often it becomes rote, but this is one of the few examples where I think it is actually a CRITICAL moment for establishing the context and premise of the setting.

We need episode 1 rape to confirm that the goblins are totally flat monsters-slash-acceptable-targets so that the protagonist needs no characterization beyond "screw goblins"? That sounds like bad writing in service to bad ideas. It sounds like a story which is uninterested in storytelling. Reading the manga basically confirms this - it's a D&D campaign with a DM who's only interested in setting up dungeon crawls and describing everyone's dice rolls in gory detail.

If I wanted the opening episode to brutalize the protagonist with gratuitous violence to establish the monstrous evil of the foe, making it okay for the protagonist to hate them and want to kill them all, I'd watch Attack on Titan. At least it tries to put some kind of intrigue into the plot.

[gomipile]

Good news, Crunchyroll confirmed to have "As Miss Beelzebub Likes It" https://twitter.com/Crunchyroll/stat...46051460239361

Yup, good news. Though, they aren't simulcasting it yet, and they haven't announced when they'll start streaming it. The first episode aired yesterday in Japan.

They might yet catch up and start simulcasting it partway through. Hopefully this doesn't mean they have to rush too much and mess up the subs on the first episode or few. I'd rather the delay get extended if it means better subs.

[Zalabim]

All this talk about Goblin Slayer means I have to remind myself that "Goblin Slayer" is not just an alternate title for Grimgar. Maybe it's set in the same universe. No?

[theMycon]

All this talk about Goblin Slayer means I have to remind myself that "Goblin Slayer" is not just an alternate title for Grimgar. Maybe it's set in the same universe. No?

Unlikely. As much as I'd like a second season, there's no reason to think this is it.

For one thing, there's no hint thus far that this is another world. The first episode PoV character was born & raised there. It's game-like, but functions differently.

For another, it's a common occurrence in this world for most of an adventuring party to lose people, then get right back to it the next day. Grimgar had a significant amount of plot around that one cleric being shunned & emotionally scarred because of it.

Also, Goblin Slayer goblins are subterranean idiots significantly smaller than a human.
Grimgar's goblins are much bigger & better organized.

[HandofShadows]

Not all since there's the bit where the goblins use it to produce more goblins. Speaking of which I don't think we ever see any female goblins, so for all we know it's the only way the goblins can multiply.

If that makes you ask how did goblins came to be in the first place, well later on there's hints their origin is far from natural.

I think you are assuming that we can tell the difference between a male and female goblin easily. There are a number of species that you have to look real hard to tell the gender and that's if you know what to look for. Heck for all we know these goblins may not even have genders, they could be both genders or they could change genders dependent on the environment. We don't know.

[deuterio12]

I think you are assuming that we can tell the difference between a male and female goblin easily. There are a number of species that you have to look real hard to tell the gender and that's if you know what to look for. Heck for all we know these goblins may not even have genders, they could be both genders or they could change genders dependent on the environment. We don't know.

-Goblins are having sex at every opportunity even when their lairs are under attack, but we only ever see them doing so with human women, never with other goblins.
-Following on the above, we see multiple times pregnant human women and goblin children, but never an actual pregnant goblin.

In particular later on we have the goblin

Spoiler

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Leader who had a backup plan of keeping a secret cave filled with human women prisioners so that if his current army was wiped out he could just run away and make a new one. But no mention of him keeping any goblins for breeding, he actually kills his own minions to cover his retreat.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I think you are assuming that we can tell the difference between a male and female goblin easily. There are a number of species that you have to look real hard to tell the gender and that's if you know what to look for. Heck for all we know these goblins may not even have genders, they could be both genders or they could change genders dependent on the environment. We don't know.

Word of God/Series (maybe?) is pretty clear there is no such thing as a female goblin. The series is, apparently, an attempt at the reconstruction of (among other things) the 'always chaotic evil' race trope that has been thoroughly dismantled in the past couple of decades. The goblins are evil. Full stop. Even when left to their own devices, they are horrible little ****s to each other. What they are is more hateful of other species than they are of themselves and just clever enough to be a serious problem, especially when other adventurers aren't willing to take the low pay for the high risk to root out the growing goblin infestations and new parties...well...we see what happens to new parties in the very first episode when they go in unprepared and doing something stupid. Two out of three of them die miserably.

Goblin Slayer is what happens when the Doom Slayer meets Tucker's Kobolds and just that concept alone has me in love with the series...doesn't hurt it is legitimately gorgeous and made me uncomfortable as hell which not many things do. I am all for the heavy metal music cues that will signify Goblin Slayer enacting vengeance on those little bastards and I want to see where the series goes..so long as it does not get gratuitous with sexual violence that is. There's a very fine line between making people uncomfortable to make a point and drive a scene and it becoming a cheap tool used for Squick. Hopefully Goblin Slayer remains firmly on one side and not the other.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, I am wrong about female goblins. I'm only at the start of the series and it wasn't clear they didn't exist from what I have seen so far.

[Lord Raziere]

I hope Goblin Slayer fails, really. let the "always chaotic evil" trope die. I agree with Lethologica, it sounds like just Worse Attack on Titan, and I don't even watch that, because thats already horrible.

Really I need to start writing a series that deconstructs "always chaotic evil" MORE. Just obliterate it into the ground.

[Silfir]

so long as it does not get gratuitous with sexual violence that is. There's a very fine line between making people uncomfortable to make a point and drive a scene and it becoming a cheap tool used for Squick. Hopefully Goblin Slayer remains firmly on one side and not the other.

I'm just going to point out that when Tolkien established his "Always Chaotic Evil" orcs, he got it done just fine without any raping. Those were the days.

I can get on board with the reasoning that if you're seeing too much of the "monsters are people too" stuff for your liking, and all the "fantasy world peace through communication" stuff, coming up with a narrative that goes against the grain is only natural and not a bad thing. If you're going to argue that to accomplish that, you have to put it in some rape or people won't buy it... You're going to alienate some people.

And that's fine in itself. No work of art is enjoyed by everyone the same. I'm just saying - if there's such a thing as non-gratuitous depictions of sexual violence, I really don't see how Goblin Slayer qualifies.

(With that being said - I've watched and enjoyed Firefly, so this might be more a case of not wanting to see the same story again. I'm pretty sure making the Reavers an alien race would have made them a lot less interesting, though.)



I also don't think "Always Chaotic Evil" is one of those tropes that needed to be reconstructed. Isn't the point of reconstructing a trope or a genre essentially showing what was awesome all along about it - like what Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did for the mecha genre post-Neon-Genesis-Evangelion? What is it about the concept of "irredeemably evil fantasy beings that are ok to murder" that needed reconstructing, and what does the element of "in fact, it's not just ok to murder them, it's your moral obligation to murder the everliving daylights out of them because look at all the rape they're doing" add that makes it worth including?

[tensai_oni]

Isn't the point of reconstructing a trope or a genre essentially showing what was awesome all along about it - like what Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did for the mecha genre post-Neon-Genesis-Evangelion?

That's not how reconstruction works and also there were a lot of mecha series that were made between Eva and TTGL and arguably better than both.

Anyway, what were we talking about? Ah, Goblin Slayer, right. It's edgy garbage, basically this season's answer to Terra Formars. Nothing else needs to be said, except perhaps this comparison being offensive to Terra Formars (which at least had some good ideas hidden there, if you can get past the "accidentally" offensive designs for the bugs).

[deuterio12]

Anyway, what were we talking about? Ah, Goblin Slayer, right. It's edgy garbage, basically this season's answer to Terra Formars. Nothing else needs to be said, except perhaps this comparison being offensive to Terra Formars (which at least had some good ideas hidden there, if you can get past the "accidentally" offensive designs for the bugs).

Which good ideas Terra Formars had again? That white skinned blonde humans with blue eyes are the ultimate master race? That eugenics is the best?

At least Goblin Slayer goes out there and says: "Rape is bad. If you do it, you deserve to be nastily stabbed in the guts."

[Callos_DeTerran]

I hope Goblin Slayer fails, really. let the "always chaotic evil" trope die. I agree with Lethologica, it sounds like just Worse Attack on Titan, and I don't even watch that, because thats already horrible.

Really I need to start writing a series that deconstructs "always chaotic evil" MORE. Just obliterate it into the ground.

I disagree with you on that, but I'm not sure I'm able to articulate why. I'll try below, but I don't think I'll be able to do it right honestly.

I'm just going to point out that when Tolkien established his "Always Chaotic Evil" orcs, he got it done just fine without any raping. Those were the days.

I can get on board with the reasoning that if you're seeing too much of the "monsters are people too" stuff for your liking, and all the "fantasy world peace through communication" stuff, coming up with a narrative that goes against the grain is only natural and not a bad thing. If you're going to argue that to accomplish that, you have to put it in some rape or people won't buy it... You're going to alienate some people.

And that's fine in itself. No work of art is enjoyed by everyone the same. I'm just saying - if there's such a thing as non-gratuitous depictions of sexual violence, I really don't see how Goblin Slayer qualifies.

(With that being said - I've watched and enjoyed Firefly, so this might be more a case of not wanting to see the same story again. I'm pretty sure making the Reavers an alien race would have made them a lot less interesting, though.)

You aren't wrong there, that's for sure but then again, just going off of the movies (I couldn't get through the books) goblins and orcs came off as violent d-bags more than evil until the orc from the Hobbit Trilogy anyway.

As for non-gratuitous vs gratuitous...I suppose a big part of it is the fact its not being played for titillation. Don't get me wrong, I'm certain there's a whole group of people who find it as such but Goblin Slayer is not playing it like that. Its nasty, its terrifying, and its leaving mental and physical scares on its victims which we get to see. Its there for a reason but is no way glorified, just a big factor of why the goblins need to be exterminated at the most or gone through a thorough cleansing at the least until normal folks can manage the issue.

Cause that is one of the bigger questions Goblin Slayer asks that I find really fascinating and don't know why it didn't occur to until recently. Just because adventurers outgrew a threat doesn't mean the threat goes away, far from it, it festers and grows until its not being managed at all and is a very serious danger to people too poor to afford protection. It becomes a threat still seen (initially) as beneath veteran adventurers when in reality they're the only ones who CAN handle it without lethal risk.

That's a fascinating thread to me because the guy who is aware of the problem and doing something about it is clearly a damaged individual shunned by other proper adventurers, but he's a hero to the common folk being saved by his actions and efforts. And he's not asking for it, but HE needs help from other people before he destroys himself.

I also don't think "Always Chaotic Evil" is one of those tropes that needed to be reconstructed. Isn't the point of reconstructing a trope or a genre essentially showing what was awesome all along about it - like what Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did for the mecha genre post-Neon-Genesis-Evangelion? What is it about the concept of "irredeemably evil fantasy beings that are ok to murder" that needed reconstructing, and what does the element of "in fact, it's not just ok to murder them, it's your moral obligation to murder the everliving daylights out of them because look at all the rape they're doing" add that makes it worth including?

Well, a big factor to me is that it removes what I consider to be boring moral quandries that have been done to death in recent memory. Goblin Slayer addresses the fact there COULD be a good goblin in the very first episode and at the same time points out why that risk cannot be taken. Even children, we get an example of what happens when even a child is spared...you know, because its a child. Its NOT good. In non-spoiler words, those goblins become much, much more dangerous. They adopt the tactics used to take out their nests, they evolve into specialized and much more dangerous types of goblins, and generally speaking visit even greater harm upon the people that showed them mercy because they're awful little monsters. They aren't funny, they aren't punch clock baddies, if given a moral choice they are going to default to the most horrible option that brings them the most pleasure.

And once it excuses (to a degree, keep reading) GS's actions taken against goblins it can point the story telling at what it wants to talk about. The flaws with adventurers in its world, how people can recover from and cope with trauma, showing the effects of a cycle of revenge and the toll it takes on those caught up in it. Etc. Etc.

And sure there seems to be some rising threat and one in the background about some dark lord and his demon generals, but that's a story for other adventurers. Its focused on the threats and dangers an 'always chaotic evil' race like goblins becomes when left unchecked. It even has the normal RPG cliches...it just gives the answer that everyone knew was the truth but maybe didn't want to admit to themselves. Why DO goblins kidnap girls from the villages that need rescuing? Because they need to breed. Why do they hate everyone? Because it is in their nature to hate and to covet, they weren't driven to it by civilized races or anything like that. And all of that...it makes it so sweet when Goblin Slayer Dooms them to tune of heavy metal.

I like the Giant and I think his story is well written, but I HATE his treatment of goblinoids and Redcloak and such because it strikes of introducing a fake moral quandary when there didn't need to be one. In a story or a game, what is so great about stopping to figure out if THIS group of baddies is really evil or 'born that way and their society and such and thus not really'? It screams of 'look how clever I am for pointing out this flaw in the reasoning of traditional gaming thought'. Well no deal! An always evil type race couldn't function in the way most players think it could when you try to slip subjective morality into things, but rather than try to explain how it does and why it does, you just cope out and go ' Well they're only evil to you!'. Bull. You can't introduce a blight on the world and then try to handwave it as a ' Well they're only evil to you' or 'its outside forces that make them evil' because then they cease to be a blight.

That said...I really hope Goblin Slayer has a moment where Slayer comes across a good goblin. They've already introduced the idea that it MIGHT be possible and we already know what Slayer's reaction is going to be, but will Priestess and his future companions let him do it? Is Slayer still in the right then for not willing to trust the very idea of a good goblin (other goblins survive adventuers by pleading for mercy or pretending like they'll turn off a new leaf. They kill those adventurers the moment they see an opening)? Will it break the bonds that have been pain-stakingly formed over the course of the story? That is a chapter that I want to see already and I've only seen a single episode and read up about the series. I want to see where Goblin Slayer goes and if the titular character survives or escapes his bloody crusade or if it destroys him.

...this is all ignoring just how cathartic it is to watch unabashed, terrible villains get exactly what they have coming to them. That I love. And the thought of seeing Guts and Cu Chalain tear through a goblin horde together.

[Lord Raziere]

Well here is we disagree:

what blight upon the world?

there is none.

when you make these orcs and goblins these always chaotic evil races, that attack and kill people yet still are these beings who haven't figured out things like proper armor and whatnot.....when the protagonists have things like magic and armor and technology and civilization and proper organization, the goblins and orcs aren't actual threats even if they're evil they're just pests to clear out. and this pest clearing out- they aren't even good fights. they're just boring hack and slash fests. there is nothing there that actually makes me think that these evil races pose a threat.

no, all always chaotic evil races do is glorify mindless extermination. and in the end, these monsters wouldn't even last that long if we're being realistic. in a realistic fantasy universe- they'd all be long dead, because they never got properly organized or unified and all the smart races wiped them out long ago, not because of any inherent goodness but because of superior social skills, technology, farming and planning. the only time nomadic raiders were truly conquerors over people with land and proper armies where the Mongols under Genghis Khan, and that died the moment Genghis did.

now imagine trying that in fantasy universes filled with wizards and heroes who can somehow get good enough to kill scores of you at once. yeah, there is no reason why these raiders would continue to exist after a certain point, especially if they're constantly backstabbing each other because that pretty much makes sure nothing can ever get off the ground.

and there is good reason to deconstruct always chaotic evil: because genocide is bad. other people with different appearances aren't things to wipe out just because they looking funny and don't behave the way you do, period. its not about "whether they're evil to you" or not or some stupid culture subjectivism, its just Wrong. there is no moral quandary: any being that is sapient has just as much potential to be good as a human, and humans can be jerks. you think orcs or goblins are bad? frack, humans have probably committed worse atrocities than any orc or goblin ever written. against each other no less over things far less objective. if orcs are a blight, than so is every sapient species.

I don't desire orcs or goblins as antagonists at all. for there is absolutely no reason to other than a ridiculous desire to have your guilt-free killing color-coded. When its a game. every killing is guilt free. even if your the evilest PC murderhobo who kills everyone he sees, there is no actual guilt, they don't exist. therefore, why not have good storytelling rather than waste time establishing a nonsensical system to make sure you don't have to feel guilty when from one point its a game, you don't have to feel guilty about anything by DEFAULT, and from another point of view, always chaotic evil is bad storytelling so why bother with it? always chaotic evil is itself the tradition that needs to go. you want enemies? thats easy. just replace "because genetics" with an actual reason to fight.

why just look at so many shows in anime itself that provide those reasons! look how much fighting you can get without resorting to always chaotic evil! there are entire shows that do this! because evil is a thing of individuals and actions! not some mindless blight put there for vague reasons. what is this fantasy really? a thing of fake drama, because it plays up whether there can be a "good" X and makes the X themselves wonder if they are only one of their kind who can be good when its freaking nonsense:

Either you live in a world of miracles/anomalies and the existence of a good X is a one-off unique thing that'll never happen again and whatever deity that caused this happen is a cruel being trying to trick people in which case screw that deity for cursing you to be false hope.

Or you don't live in a world of miracles and anomalies and you can teach others to be good as well since your living proof that it can be done.

Meaning the only sane option is to try and redeem others of your kind no matter what and if turns you can't because your unique, you might as well go out in a blaze of glory to save everyone else the trouble.

I don't care for whatever you desire, because I want to be a heroic goblin or orc, and no, DnD does not provide that fantasy with its constant "always chaotic evil" stupidity. don't get me wrong I love killing me some evil- I love action heroes, superheroes, good fights and destruction- but always chaotic evil races? NO. Just no.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well here is we disagree:

what blight upon the world?

there is none.

when you make these orcs and goblins these always chaotic evil races, that attack and kill people yet still are these beings who haven't figured out things like proper armor and whatnot.....when the protagonists have things like magic and armor and technology and civilization and proper organization, the goblins and orcs aren't actual threats even if they're evil they're just pests to clear out. and this pest clearing out- they aren't even good fights. they're just boring hack and slash fests. there is nothing there that actually makes me think that these evil races pose a threat.

no, all always chaotic evil races do is glorify mindless extermination. and in the end, these monsters wouldn't even last that long if we're being realistic. in a realistic fantasy universe- they'd all be long dead, because they never got properly organized or unified and all the smart races wiped them out long ago, not because of any inherent goodness but because of superior social skills, technology, farming and planning. the only time nomadic raiders were truly conquerors over people with land and proper armies where the Mongols under Genghis Khan, and that died the moment Genghis did.

now imagine trying that in fantasy universes filled with wizards and heroes who can somehow get good enough to kill scores of you at once. yeah, there is no reason why these raiders would continue to exist after a certain point, especially if they're constantly backstabbing each other because that pretty much makes sure nothing can ever get off the ground.

and there is good reason to deconstruct always chaotic evil: because genocide is bad. other people with different appearances aren't things to wipe out just because they looking funny and don't behave the way you do, period. its not about "whether they're evil to you" or not or some stupid culture subjectivism, its just Wrong. there is no moral quandary: any being that is sapient has just as much potential to be good as a human, and humans can be jerks. you think orcs or goblins are bad? frack, humans have probably committed worse atrocities than any orc or goblin ever written. against each other no less over things far less objective. if orcs are a blight, than so is every sapient species.

I don't desire orcs or goblins as antagonists at all. for there is absolutely no reason to other than a ridiculous desire to have your guilt-free killing color-coded. When its a game. every killing is guilt free. even if your the evilest PC murderhobo who kills everyone he sees, there is no actual guilt, they don't exist. therefore, why not have good storytelling rather than waste time establishing a nonsensical system to make sure you don't have to feel guilty when from one point its a game, you don't have to feel guilty about anything by DEFAULT, and from another point of view, always chaotic evil is bad storytelling so why bother with it? always chaotic evil is itself the tradition that needs to go. you want enemies? thats easy. just replace "because genetics" with an actual reason to fight.

why just look at so many shows in anime itself that provide those reasons! look how much fighting you can get without resorting to always chaotic evil! there are entire shows that do this! because evil is a thing of individuals and actions! not some mindless blight put there for vague reasons. what is this fantasy really? a thing of fake drama, because it plays up whether there can be a "good" X and makes the X themselves wonder if they are only one of their kind who can be good when its freaking nonsense:

Either you live in a world of miracles/anomalies and the existence of a good X is a one-off unique thing that'll never happen again and whatever deity that caused this happen is a cruel being trying to trick people in which case screw that deity for cursing you to be false hope.

Or you don't live in a world of miracles and anomalies and you can teach others to be good as well since your living proof that it can be done.

Meaning the only sane option is to try and redeem others of your kind no matter what and if turns you can't because your unique, you might as well go out in a blaze of glory to save everyone else the trouble.

I don't care for whatever you desire, because I want to be a heroic goblin or orc, and no, DnD does not provide that fantasy with its constant "always chaotic evil" stupidity. don't get me wrong I love killing me some evil- I love action heroes, superheroes, good fights and destruction- but always chaotic evil races? NO. Just no.

First, yeah we disagree on this and that's cool. Goblin Slayer is not your jam and honestly never assumed it was going to be from what I've seen of your tastes. But to address some of your points...

Spoiler: What blight?

Show

In this particular setting they are very much an issue because of basically the reason you point out. That's what everyone who isn't a goblin thinks of them including the current king. There is a literal part of the story where a gold ranked adventurer (one of the most noted and well regarded ranks) is sending ANOTHER request for help from the army to root out the goblins beneath her city. The king's reaction is basically 'seriously? For goblins? Handle it yourself, I've got other issues to deal with' ignorant of the fact she can't ( she was captured by goblins in the past and lives in such fear of them they haunt her dreams every night) and even if she tried, it could end in her death very easily.

Because the goblins have figured out at least basic weaponry and are figuring out more and more with each encounter with people. Because some kind of battle between the gods happened that halted technological progress and such and goblins (and other threats) aren't letting infrastructure and such be replaced or rebuilt. Nevermind goblins are figuring out their own way to channel the power of the gods, aka goblin 'paladins' have started to appear.

Now imagine you aren't a famous adventurer that commands respect and you live in some town out in the sticks. You can't afford to root a nest if you could find it, its super freaking dangerous...but the longer that nest is there, the bigger its going to get until there's a horde. And hordes can and will just wipe towns off the face of the map. So you try to hire adventurers. The experienced and veterans ones turn you down because the pay is NOT worth the danger and they can do jobs that are dangerous but ALSO pay extremely well because they're considered.a greater danger. The only people willing to consider helping you are rookie adventurers because they need the money and lack the experience to know how dangerous it is. So two out of three times...you just helped the nest grow and become stronger. That last time you got lucky and the nest was destroyed...hopefully, cause if any goblins got away or were spared (which lets face it, sone probably did) then you have a goblin wanderer on your hand. Which are smarter, crueler, and tend to change in unforeseen ways to be more dangerous than ever. Ones that unify and organize the rest of their kind such as, as another spoilerific example, setting about acquiring iron armor and weapons for the rest of their kind when the rest of the world isn't that much further ahead of that level of technology and they have magic as well.

They are a threat that has been allowed to grow because of the very same attitude you just expressed and the people aware of the danger are very worried that it might be too late to actually stop this blight from consuming every town on the frontier and by that point it might not be able to be stopped anymore.

So yes, Goblin Slayer does have a situation and an explanation for why they are more than just the pests people assume they are. And they work together well enough to be a serious problem cause, again, they hate everyone else a lot more than they dislike each other.

Spoiler: Genocide and Always Evil

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Hate to say it, but genocide is always bad only has merit when salience does actually impart the ability to be good. When, to use D&D as an example, you can objectively make the multiuniverse a better place by exterminating the physical incarnations of active evil then the argument to not wipe them out loses a lot of its merit because you are literally killing pure evil that exists only to prey on others. Its not a matter of 'Oh, they just look different and have the potential to be good', we're talking MADE OF EVIL.

So yeah, there is very much a discussion to be had there because in a fantasy situation it doesn't hold up. Its why mutants being used as an allegory for LGBTness and such falls really flat right out of the gate Marvel.

To bring it back around to the topic at hand, we see a goblin that has every chance in the world to become good after just being spared by an adventurer as a child. He caves the adventurer's head in with a rock and escapes. And uses that exact same ploy when cornered in the future because it was and is so effective that he's escaped death a few times by feigning surrender and then killing the poor person who tried to show mercy. Goblins are very much sapient and are, to an individual no matter the age, rotten to a core. Even among their own kind, as an example, one goblin wanted a spear as loot that another goblin had taken. The other goblin wanted the mace the first goblin had. You'd think they'd just trade but nope, they both want both weapons just because the other one wabts what they have and fight

A lot of this is about if you like the idea of an always evil race or not. You don't and think its bad writing. I do, so long as its used well not just as an easy way to provide action. GS from my research does seem to use it well, so I'm going to be watching it avidly to see how it actually pans out.

[kamikasei]

This is probably a good time to point out that Tolkien himself didn't like the idea of an Always Chaotic Evil race, and wasn't happy with how he'd handled orcs, because he didn't like the theology of a setup where the forces of evil could corrupt a population entirely in the past and produce irredeemable offspring in the present. So before complaining about how subsequent authors have undermined this great concept with their deconstructions and overthinking, remember that as far as Tolkien was concerned every orc and goblin was as much a child of god as any hobbit or elf, and equally deserving of grace, and the necessity of killing them on the battlefield a tragedy.

[deuterio12]

To be fair even in the original books we do see the orcs complaining that they're only serving Sauron out of pure fear and would rather have a more peaceful existence than being used as cannon fodder in some big evil army.

Spoiler: What blight?

Show

In this particular setting they are very much an issue because of basically the reason you point out. That's what everyone who isn't a goblin thinks of them including the current king. There is a literal part of the story where a gold ranked adventurer (one of the most noted and well regarded ranks) is sending ANOTHER request for help from the army to root out the goblins beneath her city. The king's reaction is basically 'seriously? For goblins? Handle it yourself, I've got other issues to deal with' ignorant of the fact she can't ( she was captured by goblins in the past and lives in such fear of them they haunt her dreams every night) and even if she tried, it could end in her death very easily.

Because the goblins have figured out at least basic weaponry and are figuring out more and more with each encounter with people. Because some kind of battle between the gods happened that halted technological progress and such and goblins (and other threats) aren't letting infrastructure and such be replaced or rebuilt. Nevermind goblins are figuring out their own way to channel the power of the gods, aka goblin 'paladins' have started to appear.

Now imagine you aren't a famous adventurer that commands respect and you live in some town out in the sticks. You can't afford to root a nest if you could find it, its super freaking dangerous...but the longer that nest is there, the bigger its going to get until there's a horde. And hordes can and will just wipe towns off the face of the map. So you try to hire adventurers. The experienced and veterans ones turn you down because the pay is NOT worth the danger and they can do jobs that are dangerous but ALSO pay extremely well because they're considered.a greater danger. The only people willing to consider helping you are rookie adventurers because they need the money and lack the experience to know how dangerous it is. So two out of three times...you just helped the nest grow and become stronger. That last time you got lucky and the nest was destroyed...hopefully, cause if any goblins got away or were spared (which lets face it, sone probably did) then you have a goblin wanderer on your hand. Which are smarter, crueler, and tend to change in unforeseen ways to be more dangerous than ever. Ones that unify and organize the rest of their kind such as, as another spoilerific example, setting about acquiring iron armor and weapons for the rest of their kind when the rest of the world isn't that much further ahead of that level of technology and they have magic as well.

They are a threat that has been allowed to grow because of the very same attitude you just expressed and the people aware of the danger are very worried that it might be too late to actually stop this blight from consuming every town on the frontier and by that point it might not be able to be stopped anymore.

So yes, Goblin Slayer does have a situation and an explanation for why they are more than just the pests people assume they are. And they work together well enough to be a serious problem cause, again, they hate everyone else a lot more than they dislike each other.

There's some other key reasons.

Spoiler

Show

First and probably more important, goblins are just the weakest "monsters" in the universe of Goblin Slayer. The army and high level adventurers won't take care of that goblin nest because they're already busy dealing with ogre mages and demons and not-beholders. Those are the higher paying jobs, and for all the damage goblins do, the demons will do worst even faster if they're not dealt with right now. Goblin Slayer stands out among the adventurers precisely by going "yeah screw the demons about to end the world, got goblins closing in another crappy village to deal with."

Following on the above, we do see goblins serving those stronger monsters as sentries/scouts/fodder so the other reason they're around is because they have their own backup.

In particular the portal thingy suggesting that somebody's sending the goblins in from another world.

[gomipile]

How often has Funimation done dubs of series that aren't simuldubs since they started doing lots of simuldubs? I mean "relatively" recent series, so I'm not counting examples like, say, their recent dub of Escaflowne.