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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Ok, to sum things up: I really dislike this wizard fix, but then it's like I'm just going to keep not liking it without having my own suggestion as to what it might be. If I had a suggestion to what it might be, it'd be something else entirely, so here we are. Expect spoilers to justify my decisions.

    The concept for this is that wizards generally tend to be 'balanced' or at least tolerated at lower levels because they don't always have the answer to everything, and they can't afford to sling a spell every round. Thus, what would it look like if we applied that to all levels 1-20 and justified the loss with new mechanics. Also using the table from the earlier link

    The Conservationist
    Hit Die: d6.
    Class Skills: A Conservationist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magical Device (Cha)
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ◊4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

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    You get a higher hit die, and maybe a few different skills, I haven't bothered to check. The d6 still means you wanna stick out of melee, but won't break like a twig.


    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Spells, 0 Level Spells, Bonus Feat
    2nd +1 +0 +0 +3
    3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 1st Level Spells
    4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Opportunistic Casting +1
    5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Bonus Feat, 2nd Level Spells
    6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Opportunistic Casting +2
    7th +5 +2 +2 +5 3rd Level Spells
    8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Opportunistic Casting +3
    9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 4th Level Spells
    10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Bonus Feat, Opportunistic Casting +4
    11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 5th Level Spells
    12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Opportunistic Casting +5
    13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 6th Level Spells
    14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Opportunistic Casting +6
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Bonus Feat, 7th Level Spells
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Opportunistic Casting +7
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 8th Level Spells
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Opportunistic Casting +8
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 9th Level Spells
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bonus Feat, Opportunistic Casting +9

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    Again, standard wizard. BaB is medium as I expect this class to actually fight, but is by no means a gish. Actually the class is probably better off carrying around a bag of wands, but I digress. Now, the elephant in the room is that the class doesn't have a spell progression, and that's purposeful. I mean, from levels 1-20, parties are expected to fight up to 4 encounters, and each encounter should last roughly the same amount of time. The only thing that ever scales is difficulty, and spell levels go up every 2 levels, which should be fine. I'll see about implementing class features in between, but this is it for now.

    EDIT: Now you get something every level, except "Opportunistic Casting" is just there to explain you preparing more spells in a single slot.


    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Conservationists are proficient with all simple weapons. Conservationists are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

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    Unlike the wizard, a conservationist is probably going to keep weapons around just in case, and might somehow end up in melee, but it never hurt to try. Note that you don't get ASF reduction unless you blow it on one of your bonus feats.


    Spells: A conservationist casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A conservationist must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

    To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, a conservationist must have an intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a conservationistís spell is 10 + the spell level + the conservationistís Intelligence modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a conservationist can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell is equal to her intelligence modifier - 10. A conservationist does not get bonus spells. A conservationist determines which spell levels get spells by allocating a slot to her lowest level slot, her next level slot and so on until she reaches her maximum level slot, at which point she repeats the process

    Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a conservationist may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good nightís sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the conservationist decides which spells to prepare. If a conservationist prepares a 0th level spell, then she may cast them like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.

    A conservationist's spellbook functions as a wizard's for the purposes of scribing more spells into it, except she learns 6 spells each level instead of 2, and learns 7+Int spells at 1st level.

    Spoiler: Example
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    Example: Mialee the 7th level Conservationist has a Int modifier of 20 and thus has 10 total spell slots, up to a maximum of 3rd level. Her player calculates the distribution by giving a slot to the 0th spell level, up to her 3rd spell level, which looks like:
    0: 1 | 1: 1 | 2: 1 | 3: 1
    at which point she repeats, getting
    0: 2 | 1: 2 | 2: 2 | 3: 2
    leaving her with 2 slots, which she applies to her 0th and first level slot, leaving her with:
    0: 3 | 1: 3 | 2: 2 | 3: 2


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    Things got reworded! A conservationist functions just like a wizard except her spells/day are much different. I considered just giving x2 slots, but then I realized that'd be the same as int-10, so I changed it to that. The whole "prepare multiple spells in one slot" thing was moved to it's own progression, so everything would be easier to read.


    Bonus Feats: A Conservationist gets a bonus feat at 1st level and every 5th level thereafter. These feats can be any [Reserve] feat, [Fighter] feat, Item Creation feat, [Metamagic] feat, or the Battle Caster (CArc) feat, except it allows you to cast in light armor. The conservationist must still meet the prerequisites for these feats as normal.

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    Feats! These are here to adapt to the build goal of the player, but generally the first will be a fighter feat or the battle casting feat, given that reserve feats might be tricky to qualify for and metamagic feats are far off. The 2nd and 3rd feats will likely be reserve, just as something to use when the conservationist isn't casting spells (see: all the time), and the last feats will likely be metamagic since he/she might find use of lower level spells and wouldn't want to waste them on high level slots.


    Opportunistic Casting: At 4th level, and every 2nd level thereafter, a conservationist gains the ability to prepare an additional spell in each of her spell slots. Once the spell slot is expended, none of the additional prepared spells can be accessed. Additional prepared spells must be the same effective level as the spell slot.

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    EDIT: Added Item Creation/Battle Caster feats as options, after realizing that item creation is hardly broken, and I gave light armor proficiency but no ASF reduction. Changed the + prepared spells to its own progression, to a maximum of 10 total slots at 20th level.


    This was originally intended to be a short fix, but I'll probably end up adding some bells and whistles.
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-03-21 at 02:55 PM.
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    Ew, Goaty make stinky homebrew
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Given my understanding of the tiers, you can't both get planar binding/polymorph and not be Tier One. The thing that makes you Tier One is not getting a bunch of spells per day, it is getting broken spells at all. So this is Tier One, and has therefore failed at its goal of being Tier Three or Four. I think you need to define a new balance target.

    Also, I am not sure that (as I understand the mechanics to work), this is even a nerf. It seems like you get INT mod spell slots (which you can use for any level of spells), meaning that you can walk in with half-a-dozen or more spells of a given level as soon as you get access to a spell level. I'm not sure I would trade all my 1st/2nd/3rd level slots for five extra castings of evard's black tentacles at 7th level, but I would certainly consider it. The fact that this appears to be spontaneous-ish casting also seems like a huge upside to me.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    To me, the biggest nerf in this class is that wizards do not have enough spell slots to go crazy-nova in one fight, then rest, as in the cliche "15 minute adventuring day" of trying to squeeze one battle per day. It also limits the willingness to cast if it is known there are several fights upcoming, e.g., probably want to save your spells during the battle in room 1 when you're storming an enemy castle, so you have them for the bigger battles.

    On the other hand, this build reinforces the 'need' for a 15-minute adventuring day, especially at low-to-mid levels when the Int modifier isn't huge. I also think that, outside of certain builds*, the lack of spell slots is probably balanced or superseded by being able to prepare numerous spells in each slot. In other words, as Cosi noted, this isn't necessarily a nerf.

    All that said, this is a really interesting class and I think I might prefer it to a basic wizard.

    How would metamagic work with this class, or would it be a non-option since technically they don't have the "Spellcasting" class feature but instead have their own specific method of getting spells?

    *these certain builds are probably not optimized ones anyway. What comes to mind is a War Weaver using several buffs at once on the party. Probably some builds that benefit from Quickened actions to cast multiple spells per round would also suffer.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Given my understanding of the tiers, you can't both get planar binding/polymorph and not be Tier One.
    The sorcerer could very well get both of those, and is not T1.

    The thing that makes you Tier One is not getting a bunch of spells per day, it is getting broken spells at all. So this is Tier One, and has therefore failed at its goal of being Tier Three or Four. I think you need to define a new balance target.
    Yea, I guess you're right. The actual balance target is to be really amazing at some things (like T1 wizard), but only a few times a day. Kinda like if a 1st level wizard with 11 int dropped a mob of commoners with a single casting of color spray. He gets that one burst of ultimate glory and then needs to let somebody else shine because he just blew 1/3 of his resources (without nova'ing like psions, because the wizard list is just *that* good).

    Also, I am not sure that (as I understand the mechanics to work), this is even a nerf. It seems like you get INT mod spell slots (which you can use for any level of spells), meaning that you can walk in with half-a-dozen or more spells of a given level as soon as you get access to a spell level. I'm not sure I would trade all my 1st/2nd/3rd level slots for five extra castings of evard's black tentacles at 7th level, but I would certainly consider it. The fact that this appears to be spontaneous-ish casting also seems like a huge upside to me.
    Yeah, I guess to counter that I'll have each "slot" be devoted to a level of spells, and then delay spell progressions. So basically the spell slots level can't be higher than a set level. I'll try to be more clear, but thanks!

    EDIT: So something like learning spell levels at later class levels i.e 0 level at 1st, 1st level at 3rd. 9th level at 20th, etc. Then, each slot has an order of which they get filled, starting with the lowest slot and progressing upwards... In other words, a +1 int modifier at level 3 (thus granting you level 0, and 1 spells) must fill the 0th slot before the 1st level slot, thus your slots would look like: 0th: 1 | 1st: 0. Whereas a +3 modifier at 1st level would look like 0th: 2 | 1st: 1 (Since it gets past 1st and 'resets' back to 0). A +13 modifier at level 19 (8th level spells) would look like: 0th: 2 | 1st: 2 | 2nd: 2 | 3rd: 1 | 4th: 1 | 5th: 1 | 6th: 1 | 7th: 1 | 8th: 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    *these certain builds are probably not optimized ones anyway. What comes to mind is a War Weaver using several buffs at once on the party. Probably some builds that benefit from Quickened actions to cast multiple spells per round would also suffer.
    TBH, I'd leave wizards as they are if they only functioned as GOD wizards -- This nerf is primarily for the T1 monstrosity that can live without a "team" to buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    How would metamagic work with this class, or would it be a non-option since technically they don't have the "Spellcasting" class feature but instead have their own specific method of getting spells?
    Metamagic turns up the effective spell level, so an extended Enlarge Person would be a 2nd level slot. It does have spellcasting, it just doesn't have a set increase in spells.
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-03-19 at 01:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    The sorcerer could very well get both of those, and is not T1.
    This thing gets substantially more spells known that the Sorcerer. As far as I can tell, it learns spells just like a Wizard.

    Yea, I guess you're right. The actual balance target is to be really amazing at some things (like T1 wizard), but only a few times a day.
    Honestly, I don't think the problem with the current Wizard is that he does too much in combat. He has enough spell slots that he can use one max level spell and one or two lower level but still relevant spells in three or four fights a day, and I think that's totally reasonable. A 7th level Wizard dropping evard's black tentacles and stinking cloud in one fight seems like something that most reasonable characters can compete with. The problem with the Wizard are balance abuses like planar binding loops or Persistomancy, and the fact that he has access to minigames most other classes don't. The combat actions he takes at combat time are honestly 100% fine.

    Yeah, I guess to counter that I'll have each "slot" be devoted to a level of spells, and then delay spell progressions. So basically the spell slots level can't be higher than a set level. I'll try to be more clear, but thanks!
    That seems like it causes really weird incentives, if I understand it right. If your spell slots are locked at the level you get them, you benefit from keeping your INT low until you get whatever you think your last set of spell levels will be, then boosting it as much as possible. I would go with something like the Factotum, where you can only spend some fixed number of slots (somewhere between "2" and "half", probably) on your highest level of spells.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    As stated, it's still tier 1 as the tier is defined by how many problems one build can solve. You've made it less able to solve many problems per day, but increased the ability to solve a variety of problems with one character. To really nerf the Wizard's tier, you go the opposite direction. More spells per day, less types of spells available, increasing endurance but decreasing versatility. Basically, you go towards Sorcerer, then past that.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    This thing gets substantially more spells known that the Sorcerer. As far as I can tell, it learns spells just like a Wizard.
    In fact, he does. However, both the sorcerer and the wizard get a ton more spells/day than this guy. Assuming both he/wizard don't get bonus spells (The wizard has more spells with bonus spells alone), the wizard still gets 40 more spells/day than this guy.

    Honestly, I don't think the problem with the current Wizard is that he does too much in combat. He has enough spell slots that he can use one max level spell and one or two lower level but still relevant spells in three or four fights a day, and I think that's totally reasonable. A 7th level Wizard dropping evard's black tentacles and stinking cloud in one fight seems like something that most reasonable characters can compete with. The problem with the Wizard are balance abuses like planar binding loops or Persistomancy, and the fact that he has access to minigames most other classes don't. The combat actions he takes at combat time are honestly 100% fine.
    IMO, that's not what breaks the wizard. He'd still be T1 by virtue of solving every problem, every time. The conservationist can still solve problems whenever he tries, but trying can significantly deplete his resources.

    That seems like it causes really weird incentives, if I understand it right. If your spell slots are locked at the level you get them, you benefit from keeping your INT low until you get whatever you think your last set of spell levels will be, then boosting it as much as possible. I would go with something like the Factotum, where you can only spend some fixed number of slots (somewhere between "2" and "half", probably) on your highest level of spells.
    No idea what you mean here, but I can guarantee that wouldn't work. (based on how I'm envisioning it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    As stated, it's still tier 1 as the tier is defined by how many problems one build can solve. You've made it less able to solve many problems per day, but increased the ability to solve a variety of problems with one character. To really nerf the Wizard's tier, you go the opposite direction. More spells per day, less types of spells available, increasing endurance but decreasing versatility. Basically, you go towards Sorcerer, then past that.
    Cosi pointed out: The spells are broken, not the spells/day. Thus, giving more access to only the bestTM spells makes things worse, not better. The conservationist gets limited access to such broken spells, and is forced to put more situational spells in his spellbook .
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-03-19 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Cosi pointed out: The spells are broken, not the spells/day. Thus, giving more access to only the bestTM spells makes things worse, not better. The conservationist gets limited access to such broken spells, and is forced to put more situational spells in his spellbook .
    And yet the Sorcerer is t2, with more spells per day, all the same broken spells as Wizard and needing no preparation, so they can always use the appropriate broken option if they've picked it up, no risk of not having it ready. And Charisma is a lot easier to pump than Intelligence, while the bonus spells for high score work better for spontaneous casters due to being able to use them right off the bat from temporary boosts.

    The Wizard is t1 due to having more broken spells on call, not due to having more ability to use them.

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    Jormengand's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    The main thing is that while the tiers are supposed to stay constant with optimisation (except the truenamer, because it's somehow special in that it changes tier when optimised), they really don't stay to the point where planar binding is being used to solve literally every problem (or at the very least every problem that polymorph can't). By that level of optimisation, the wizard and sorcerer may both be tier 1, yes, but at that level of optimisation the truenamer is knifing unconscious people on altars with a +15 to knowledge (religion) from utterances and getting planar allies to do his dirty work for him, and no-one's going to claim that makes the truenamer T1.

    The fighter, meanwhile, has just gone to ye olde magic shoppe and bought a candle of invocation.

    If you're going to try to assign a class a tier, the tier has to be based on an optimisation level before the party are literally solving every problem by throwing as many planar whatevers at it as humanly possible.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    And yet the Sorcerer is t2, with more spells per day, all the same broken spells as Wizard and needing no preparation, so they can always use the appropriate broken option if they've picked it up, no risk of not having it ready. And Charisma is a lot easier to pump than Intelligence, while the bonus spells for high score work better for spontaneous casters due to being able to use them right off the bat from temporary boosts.
    I find it hard to believe sorcerers automatically get more bonus spells the moment they get hit with an eagle's splendor, but ok.

    The Wizard is t1 due to having more broken spells on call, not due to having more ability to use them.
    Ok: So you're saying that you can't make a T3/4 wizard homebrew that uses wizard spells even if it got a single spell a day? I mean, if we talk about extremes, using any spell once is so much worse than using a few select spells at-will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    IMO, that's not what breaks the wizard. He'd still be T1 by virtue of solving every problem, every time. The conservationist can still solve problems whenever he tries, but trying can significantly deplete his resources.
    The Wizard doesn't solve every problem every time without abilities that are individually broken. The Wizard is not substantively more powerful than is appropriate. They have power in a wider range of areas, but I think that's a good thing (and I think you're confusing "the Wizard can do a thing when the problem can't be solved with punching while the Barbarian can't" with "the Wizard solves every problem"). The game is better when players have things to do in every minigame.

    No idea what you mean here, but I can guarantee that wouldn't work. (based on how I'm envisioning it)
    So, I'm not sure what you meant, but my reading was "you get INT mod slots, they can be used for spells you could cast when you get them". So if you have 13 INT at 1st level, you gain a single 1st level slot. If you then bump up your INT somehow at 2nd level, you'd gain another 1st level slot, but if you got that bump at 3rd, you'd get a 2nd level slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    The main thing is that while the tiers are supposed to stay constant with optimisation (except the truenamer, because it's somehow special in that it changes tier when optimised)
    No, it isn't. The Truenamer is less ass as optimization increases, but it does not get relatively better.

    If you're going to try to assign a class a tier, the tier has to be based on an optimisation level before the party are literally solving every problem by throwing as many planar whatevers at it as humanly possible.
    You mean, the level of optimization where a Wizard behaves totally appropriately (given the CR system) and most classes are so direly incompetent as to be unplayable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Ok: So you're saying that you can't make a T3/4 wizard homebrew that uses wizard spells even if it got a single spell a day? I mean, if we talk about extremes, using any spell once is so much worse than using a few select spells at-will.
    I think I might say that? But that's because I think the tiers are stupid and believe you should use some other standard because they're not really coherent for anything other than "how do classes currently work" (if that).

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    No, it isn't. The Truenamer is less ass as optimization increases, but it does not get relatively better.
    This is me talking about how the tier system is supposed to work, not how it does. Try to keep up...

    You mean, the level of optimization where a Wizard behaves totally appropriately (given the CR system) and most classes are so direly incompetent as to be unplayable?
    I mean sure, if by "totally appropriately" you mean "by wrecking everything solo."

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    So, I'm not sure what you meant, but my reading was "you get INT mod slots, they can be used for spells you could cast when you get them". So if you have 13 INT at 1st level, you gain a single 1st level slot. If you then bump up your INT somehow at 2nd level, you'd gain another 1st level slot, but if you got that bump at 3rd, you'd get a 2nd level slot.
    Yes and No. Yes, you would have a difference between having 14 int at 1st and 14 int at 3rd, but it *should* automatically change when you prepare your spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Yes and No. Yes, you would have a difference between having 14 int at 1st and 14 int at 3rd, but it *should* automatically change when you prepare your spells.
    But then don't you have the first problem with this being a Wizard that trades away their low level slots for more top level slots, which doesn't feel super nerf-y.

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    But then don't you have the first problem with this being a Wizard that trades away their low level slots for more top level slots, which doesn't feel super nerf-y.
    Yes... you do? You don't get a single slot for each level until a +9 modifier, starting at the bottom and working your way up. Once you get a +10 modifier... you get an extra 0th level slot! *blows on party horn". A player pumping INT very hard (admittedly, what I'd be doing playing this), would get a +13 modifier (18 base +2 Racial +5 lvls +5 inherent +6 item = 36. 36-10 = 26/2 = 13 modifier), and have spell slots like
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    0: 2
    1: 2
    2: 2
    3: 2
    4: 1
    5: 1
    6: 1
    7: 1
    8: 1
    9: 1

    ...which might be too low, but the regular bonus spell system would have ~18 spell slots, which might be too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Yes... you do? You don't get a single slot for each level until a +9 modifier, starting at the bottom and working your way up.
    That seems ... way too harsh. Like, "you might not be able to cast your spells at all" harsh. Also, one spell per day is definitely too low.

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Um, it sounds like the mechanic works out to

    1. You get one spell per level you can cast
    2. You get a new spell level every odd level
    3. You cannot cast spells of a level above your INT modifier

    At least until you can get a +10 to your INT?

    Am I misreading it?

    OK, I am misreading it--you get +INT spell slots, and you have to fill the lowest spell levels first.

    May I suggest, for the sake of clarity, and to nerf the nerf:

    1. One spell per level you can cast
    2. New spell every odd level
    3. Bonus spells as per PHB

    Or is the first level 18 INT Conservationist supposed to cast 4 1st level spells per day? Or 2 1sts and 2 cantrips?

    EDIT: And yes, 1 spell per level is cripplingly low. Maybe for a gish, but not for a primary caster.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Oh.

    I'm considering changing the following:
    -At will (sorry will) cantrips (as pathfinder), but spell levels are still delayed. 0th level also doesn't count against your spells/day
    -Bonus spells as spells/day (makes it simpler), but 1/2 level spells/slot to counteract more spells. Still effectively the same, except higher spell levels aren't too harder to obtain, and it's simpler since players can just refer to the PHB table instead of recalculating every time their INT changes. The aforementioned +13 modifier would instead look like...
    Spoiler
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    0: At Will
    1: 4
    2: 3
    3: 3
    4: 3
    5: 3
    6: 2
    7: 2
    8: 2
    9: 2

    ...totaling to 24 spells total. Would that work out? I don't know. I want it to get ~3 spells per combat while having a progression...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Or is the first level 18 INT Conservationist supposed to cast 4 1st level spells per day? Or 2 1sts and 2 cantrips?
    2 1sts and 2 Cantrips

    EDIT: And yes, 1 spell per level is cripplingly low. Maybe for a gish, but not for a primary caster.
    I mean, depending on how you define 'primary caster'. This is not the GOD wizard, spellslinger, or any other PO wizard. This is an opportunist who uses his limited resources to be awesome at some moments and then go back to being mediocre at whatever he does without his spells, which is probably assisted by his bonus feats, either using his reserve feats or fighter bonus feats (metamagic is one of those things where it's expected to have).
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-03-20 at 03:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    ...A random thought occurs to me that the 5e Warlock's slot arrangement would actually work out a lot better for this class's intended setup, as you then have a lot less confusing complexity that's hard to put into tables. Then make it a true 2/3rds caster in spell level, capping out pre-epic at 7th level spells, gotten at level 18. This setup means that you're free to give them enough low-level slots at 1st level to have at least one spell per encounter (pretty sure 4 is the default), then have them get slots at something like one per two levels.

    Spoiler: Here's a table for this initial form of the suggestion:
    Show
    Class Level Spell Slots Slot Level
    1 4 1
    2 4 1
    3 5 1
    4 5 2
    5 6 2
    6 6 2
    7 7 3
    8 7 3
    9 8 3
    10 8 4
    11 9 4
    12 9 4
    13 10 5
    14 10 5
    15 11 5
    16 11 6
    17 12 6
    18 12 6
    19 13 7
    20 13 7


    This results in vastly more high-level capacity than most others get by default, but trades it for vastly lower endurance and absolutely gutted low-level spell efficiency. Lacking the two highest levels of spell and being constantly behind on spell level available. A Sorcerer with a Ring of Wizardry (7th) has about as many 7th level spells alone as this would have spell slots total. With this in place, I'd also give more metamagic feats to give a decent arsenal of options for bumping spell levels up to where there isn't a loss of effect.

    Oh, also, important note about giving this 3/4 BAB: It can potentially CoDzilla with some niche spells, namely Chill Touch, being numerous instances of damage over multiple rounds. More or less the exact thing that works best. The access to the +4 buff spells and Vampiric Touch covers much of the durability concerns.

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    ...A random thought occurs to me that the 5e Warlock's slot arrangement would actually work out a lot better for this class's intended setup, as you then have a lot less confusing complexity that's hard to put into tables. Then make it a true 2/3rds caster in spell level, capping out pre-epic at 7th level spells, gotten at level 18. This setup means that you're free to give them enough low-level slots at 1st level to have at least one spell per encounter (pretty sure 4 is the default), then have them get slots at something like one per two levels.
    No. I know I'm nerfing the wizard, but *some* part about it has to be attractive, right? It's a spell level behind any other full caster as it is, which I think is enough.

    Oh, also, important note about giving this 3/4 BAB: It can potentially CoDzilla with some niche spells, namely Chill Touch, being numerous instances of damage over multiple rounds. More or less the exact thing that works best. The access to the +4 buff spells and Vampiric Touch covers much of the durability concerns.
    I guess chill touch would go against what I intended for the class as a DoT (Damage over Time) spell, but the spell isn't *that* good right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    I guess chill touch would go against what I intended for the class as a DoT (Damage over Time) spell, but the spell isn't *that* good right?
    Technically, because of the way that spells that allow you to make multiple attacks with a duration of instantaneous work (Rules Compendium) chill touch allows you to make all of the attacks as part of the same action you use to cast the spell.

    Otherwise, chill touch isn't great; it's a decent metamagic-pony though if you use the right ones.

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Technically, because of the way that spells that allow you to make multiple attacks with a duration of instantaneous work (Rules Compendium) chill touch allows you to make all of the attacks as part of the same action you use to cast the spell.

    Otherwise, chill touch isn't great; it's a decent metamagic-pony though if you use the right ones.
    Oh god, 20 Fell Drain instances.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    No. I know I'm nerfing the wizard, but *some* part about it has to be attractive, right? It's a spell level behind any other full caster as it is, which I think is enough.
    The issue is that the spells coming when they do causes issues, and the mere existence of the 8th and 9th level spells causes problems. By having more uses of peak level spells than any other class gets by default, and starting strong enough to keep up with the t3 group, it has a fairly good capacity and works as a viable t3 alternative to Wizard. I mean, I've been sitting on a semi-NPC class idea that'd work much better for nerfing the Wizard (the actual point being to get "plot magic" into e6 and onto a gap-closing follower to bump a hyper'mundane' to t1 via mage subordinate who specializes in plot magic they lack a good approximation of, but the 5e Warlock is much more in line with the setup this class is going for. And reducing the hellish complexity of the setup you went with while providing a table makes me feel justified.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2018-03-21 at 06:00 PM.

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    The issue is that the spells coming when they do causes issues, and the mere existence of the 8th and 9th level spells causes problems.
    Let's agree to disagree: I think that this class should have the capability to be more useful than any T4-and-below martial any time, any where. That said, in between his flashes of glory, he drops in what he can do significantly, and thus has a heavy dependence on his party. As I see it, you're describing a class that is much more consistent -- something that I don't want.

    I mean, I've been sitting on a semi-NPC class idea that'd work much better for nerfing the Wizard (the actual point being to get "plot magic" into e6 and onto a gap-closing follower to bump a hyper'mundane' to t1 via mage subordinate who specializes in plot magic they lack a good approximation of,
    Plot magic is probably done better with a DM-NPC with custom spells, IMO, but is this a rant orrr...

    By having more uses of peak level spells than any other class gets by default, and starting strong enough to keep up with the t3 group, it has a fairly good capacity and works as a viable t3 alternative to Wizard. (...) but the 5e Warlock is much more in line with the setup this class is going for. And reducing the hellish complexity of the setup you went with while providing a table makes me feel justified.
    Here's what I don't like:
    -No 8th lvl+ spells. As I said above, I expect casters to be better than traditional (fighter, rogue, etc. ToB is different) martials. Oh yea, and 8th level spells don't even get touched until level 17, 9th until 19th. Most games (that I've seen) don't even touch high levels. They are either mid levels (where this isn't relevant) or epic (also where it isn't relevant).
    -High level slots x10. Ok, that's a hyperbole, but the moment you start slinging around your highest level spells, there isn't much reason to even look at the lower levels.
    +The spell/day progression is actually pretty ok, save for the above.
    +Table is pretty nice, but again, no actual progression on levels.
    +Yes, I don't like my own progression, but I have yet to see or think of a better alternative. EDIT: Actually I've considered flat-out bonus spells, but that also goes against my idea of a low amount of spells.
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-03-21 at 06:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    I'm about to give up on this thread, honestly. The basic class mechanics are unnecessarily complicated, and the OP badly needs editing. Her base daily spell is equal to her intelligence modifier - 10. So, the part that makes any sense is terrible--you need a 30 INT to cast any spells. That sucks. And the other part--"her daily base spell"--I don't know what that means.

    I don't understand the point of the "Opportunistic Casting" minigame of memorizing sleep and magic missile in one 1st level slot and burning hands and floating in another one. "I would cast magic missile, but I already cast sleep, so I guess I'll use burning hands"--how does that add to the game?

    I don't see how having the same number of spells per day at each level (setting aside stat increases) is a good thing. Generally your highest spell level or two are the really relevant ones, so with an 18 INT (or maybe a +18 from a 46 INT?) you go from having 4 relevant spells at level 3 to having 2 at level 7.

    +Yes, I don't like my own progression, but I have yet to see or think of a better alternative.
    For a 3/4 BAB class, how about 1 spell per spell level and give them at least medium armor? As best I can tell, most Conservationists will only have 1 spell per spell level of their highest level or two anyway. So why not junk the Rube Goldberg mechanisms and just do that?

    It's a semi-prepared caster--is that the point of Opportunistic Casting?

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    Default Re: The Conservationist: 3.5 Wizard Nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Let's agree to disagree: I think that this class should have the capability to be more useful than any T4-and-below martial any time, any where. That said, in between his flashes of glory, he drops in what he can do significantly, and thus has a heavy dependence on his party. As I see it, you're describing a class that is much more consistent -- something that I don't want.
    The consistency is that there aren't surges and then mediocrity-but-still-usable. There's a semi-surge (their entire spell competence) and then nothing. The lack of low-level slots guts endurance to the point they'll need the party to provide the backstop if they screw up. They get three or four spell slots for the typical four-encounter adventuring day, meaning they'll frequently have enough for a spell each round of combat. Especially if they get multi-round spells.

    Plot magic is probably done better with a DM-NPC with custom spells, IMO, but is this a rant orrr...
    When I say "plot magic", I'm talking about long-range teleportation, reviving the dead, long-term flight, army creation and a lot of other stuff past 3rd level that's important to high fantasy storytelling that should exist in e6 worlds, but doesn't, at least not without some really extensive shenanigans

    -No 8th lvl+ spells. As I said above, I expect casters to be better than traditional (fighter, rogue, etc. ToB is different) martials. Oh yea, and 8th level spells don't even get touched until level 17, 9th until 19th. Most games (that I've seen) don't even touch high levels. They are either mid levels (where this isn't relevant) or epic (also where it isn't relevant).
    7th level spells is plenty enough for that. Hell, 5th level spells is plenty for that, with enough slots and the right list. The core martial classes are horrible, and the Wiz/Sorc list is so powerful that Sword of the Arcane Order bumps Paladin darn close to t3 on its own.

    -High level slots x10. Ok, that's a hyperbole, but the moment you start slinging around your highest level spells, there isn't much reason to even look at the lower levels.
    Twice as many as a Sorcerer gets of that level, but not a single slot above or below that level, leaving them with something like an eighth of the overall slots and somewhere around a third the total spell levels. They get a heck of a lot more impressive showings at certain levels, but when they get to two spell levels behind, they're not really keeping up in t1, or even t2, gameplay, just because of the endurance loss. Which generally means they default to t3.

    And there's not an effect of each kind at every level, and metamagic can do a startling amount to make low level effects worth using.

    +The spell/day progression is actually pretty ok, save for the above.
    Then why not use it with adjustments you want to make for it?

    +Table is pretty nice, but again, no actual progression on levels.
    How so? "Slot level" is the level of the spell slot, as with normal spellcaster, class level is the 1st column and the number of slots is the 2nd column. Unless you think Bards don't get meaningful progression in spells on levels? Seriously, the difference between 3rd and 4th level spells is huge, too much plot-magic availability.

    +Yes, I don't like my own progression, but I have yet to see or think of a better alternative. EDIT: Actually I've considered flat-out bonus spells, but that also goes against my idea of a low amount of spells.
    Taking what I suggested as the basis of the casting mechanic would, at least, give you a table to work with for the baseline. Shift how many slots are gotten and what level they are to get the sort of feel you're going for, but it gives a clear baseline without fiddly wording.

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