Searching for a new system

[RFLS]

My group has been playing Pathfinder for years. It's generally done fairly well, but we've recently been getting more and more frustrated with the length of combat and its inability to handle odd character concepts without an exorbitant amount of splat diving. This is nothing against PF, it's just that our group has drifted away from being its intended audience.

We're looking to migrate systems. Here's the wishlist:

• Crunch about halfway between PF and Fate
• Unified resolution system (same type of rolls for everything)
• Ability to handle diverse character concepts
• Short combat
• Easily hackable

My gut says that PbtA and Genesys are good choices, but I was hoping for other suggestions and/or advice on using those two.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I will suggest Burning Wheel. It's a fairly crunchy system if you use everything, but it's specifically designed that you can avoid using the more complicated subsystems if you want to.

Everything is a skill roll that works in the same way. You set a target number and roll a number of dice and try to get that many successes on them. An obstacle 5 extortion test is handled in the same way as an obstacle 5 ancient history test or an obstacle 5 sword test.

The main book + codex supports character creation for a significant number of diverse concepts for humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, dark elves, ratmen, trolls, and great wolves.

Combat has three levels of crunch/length and you can pick which one to use. A simple versus test, a couple opposed tests with wounds/damage thrown in, or an elaborate dueling system. Both of the first two options won't take more than five minutes to resolve. The last one is great for climactic duels but will take a long ass time to run. It's totally optional, though.

Being easy to hack depends on what you want to hack exactly. It's easy to add in additional options for character creation once you understand how they work and it's certainly possible to design additional subsystems once you have experience with the game. Changing core systems isn't recommended at all, though.

[johncs]

I feel a little out there offering this suggestion, since I haven't played Fate and don't know where it lies in crunchiness, but Dungeon World might be worthy of a look. I think it hits all your bullet points.

[Socratov]

While not really a fantasy based system and the epicness of what you encounter really will become overwhelming, I's really suggest you take a look at Call of Cthulhu 7th. The system is simple, uses single mode of resolution (except for damage) and imo has some really nice applications of simplicity. Also, it is really easy to prepare for and if I'm not mistaken you can really hack it into something else entirely...

[Faolin]

I would recommend WOIN. It has a really nice crunch with all the options available in combat and its positional bonuses. The system itself is modular and hackable with three default flavors to mix and match as needed. If what you are looking for is not already in there, the system fully supports you just going off to make it. Character builds are really flexible with the life path system. With default rules combat should be pretty short depending on how the dm runs combat.

[Knaight]

If you're still looking to do fantasy I'd recommend Reign. The core mechanics are very solid, it can cover a wide variety of characters well within the fantasy milieu*, and it also handles large scale organizational conflict better than anything else out there.

*This requirement is actually really easy to meet; for all that PF hypes their character variety it's pretty unexceptional for RPGs that aren't class based, and making said characters is usually pretty direct in those cases.

[Rhedyn]

My group has been playing Pathfinder for years. It's generally done fairly well, but we've recently been getting more and more frustrated with the length of combat and its inability to handle odd character concepts without an exorbitant amount of splat diving. This is nothing against PF, it's just that our group has drifted away from being its intended audience.

We're looking to migrate systems. Here's the wishlist:

• Crunch about halfway between PF and Fate
• Unified resolution system (same type of rolls for everything)
• Ability to handle diverse character concepts
• Short combat
• Easily hackable

My gut says that PbtA and Genesys are good choices, but I was hoping for other suggestions and/or advice on using those two.

I would recommend Savage Worlds. It's a mid crunch generic with tons of support and there are few character concepts I can't actualize in it, but it's not nearly as fiddly as GURPS to achieve that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My gut says that PbtA and Genesys are good choices, but I was hoping for other suggestions and/or advice on using those two.

I've heard good things about Genesys, but PbtA is significantly less crunchy than even Fate, methinks. The Dresden Files version of Fate might not be a bad compromise, being a bit more crunchy than Core and a bit more focused around fantasy/superhero type characters. It's pretty solid.

Otherwise... Mutants and Masterminds, maybe? It's pretty quick and solid once you get used to it, and has massive flexibility.

[Thrudd]

I would debate whether PbtA can handle diverse character concepts, characters are entirely archetype based, with little or no customizability. "Crunch"-wise, I'd say it's a bit simpler/less crunch than Fate.

Assuming you want heroic fantasy or swords & sorcery similar to PF/D&D settings, I second Savage Worlds as a generic that is less mechanically taxing than PF/3.5, though still fairly detailed in combat.

D6 is another generic with a flexible amount of crunch (there are options for how detailed you want combat to be, so it can be very tactical or basically cinematic). Resolution is very simple - roll some d6's and compare the sum to a difficulty number. For a bonus, the entire D6 system is free, with downloadable pdfs for all the sourcebooks (universal D6 system, Fantasy, Space, Adventure/Modern)

Neither game uses classes, characters are described by attributes, skills and advantages/disadvantages/merits/flaws.

Both these games are hackable by design, they give you advice for creating your own content. D6 depends on you doing so a bit more than savage worlds, at least to some extent. There are three different types of magic system presented in the three source books (that are all compatible/interchangeable) with examples for basic sorts of powers and spells - but also guidelines for designing your own powers.

[Anonymouswizard]

We're looking to migrate systems. Here's the wishlist:

• Crunch about halfway between PF and Fate
• Unified resolution system (same type of rolls for everything)
• Ability to handle diverse character concepts
• Short combat
• Easily hackable

Any preference for genre?

Short combat is probably the hardest to deal with. The easiest way to shorten combat is less bookkeeping, which tends to mean that mooks will go down easily.

It sounds like you essentially want a more crunchy, maybe completely non-narrative Fate.

Maybe Fudge? Fate is essentially a Fudge hack to incorporate a narrative mechanic, and Fudge is just as versatile as Fate is but with some crunch added here and taken away there. A physical copy is one of those things that I keep telling myself I'll get when I can justify it. Not quite as character-versatile as Fate as the lack of aspects make such characters as intelligent magical swords harder, but still significantly more versatile than Pathfinder (which isn't hard, I think I only own one or two games less versatile than Pathfinder). I'm a bit surprised Knaight hasn't mentioned it yet, but I suppose it's a bit below you're defined crunch level.

In terms of Fate, it starts to get more crunchy as you add in more Extras, which means that both Dresden Files versions are crunchier than Core (even Dresden Files Accelerated, characters become heavily Stunt-based). It never gets overly crunchy but you can still get to a decent level.

[2D8HP]

RuneQuest

and other Chaosium BRP, games which are just so intuitive.
(Here's a pdf sample), is my "go-to" generic system.

They're many BRP based games, the most known of which is Call of Cthullu, which I found to be one of the easiest RPG's to Gamemaster or "Keeper", more D&D like were RuneQuest (the original "BRP" game), Pendragon (my favorite, here's a pdf sample of some of the 5th edition rules, the latest I have, a 5.2 is out now).

Chaosium's Stormbringer had a magic system based on summoning supernatural entities, which I really recommend.

Here is a

review of Stormbringer

that seems to go deepest into the "mechanics" that I've been able to find (warning NSFW language).

I really have a hard time in reading PDF's, but here's a

Quick start Magic World PDF

the rules of which I'm told are based on Stormbringer. but was the most D&D like as Magic World was designed to use "Runequest like rules, but with a gonzo D&D feel".

[Knaight]

I'm a bit surprised Knaight hasn't mentioned it yet, but I suppose it's a bit below you're defined crunch level.

That would be why I didn't mention it. It's not halfway between PF and Fate, it's right on par with Fate. It's still my favorite generic, and other than crunch level it's excellent for this.

[RFLS]

I would recommend WOIN. It has a really nice crunch with all the options available in combat and its positional bonuses. The system itself is modular and hackable with three default flavors to mix and match as needed. If what you are looking for is not already in there, the system fully supports you just going off to make it. Character builds are really flexible with the life path system. With default rules combat should be pretty short depending on how the dm runs combat.

That's the second time I've seen WOIN recommended. How does it handle with the sort of high fantasy a Planescape setting can get up to?

If you're still looking to do fantasy I'd recommend Reign. The core mechanics are very solid, it can cover a wide variety of characters well within the fantasy milieu, and it also handles large scale organizational conflict better than anything else out there.

Large scale conflict is actually something that we're looking for; it slipped my mind. They're gearing up to overthrow a small government, and are actively rabble rousing to do it right now.

I've heard good things about Genesys, but PbtA is significantly less crunchy than even Fate, methinks. The Dresden Files version of Fate might not be a bad compromise, being a bit more crunchy than Core and a bit more focused around fantasy/superhero type characters. It's pretty solid.

Otherwise... Mutants and Masterminds, maybe? It's pretty quick and solid once you get used to it, and has massive flexibility.

I hadn't considered Dresden Files; I even have it on my shelf. I'll give it a once-over, I remember being impressed when I read it.

Any preference for genre?

Short combat is probably the hardest to deal with. The easiest way to shorten combat is less bookkeeping, which tends to mean that mooks will go down easily.

It sounds like you essentially want a more crunchy, maybe completely non-narrative Fate.

Maybe Fudge? Fate is essentially a Fudge hack to incorporate a narrative mechanic, and Fudge is just as versatile as Fate is but with some crunch added here and taken away there. A physical copy is one of those things that I keep telling myself I'll get when I can justify it. Not quite as character-versatile as Fate as the lack of aspects make such characters as intelligent magical swords harder, but still significantly more versatile than Pathfinder (which isn't hard, I think I only own one or two games less versatile than Pathfinder). I'm a bit surprised Knaight hasn't mentioned it yet, but I suppose it's a bit below you're defined crunch level.

In terms of Fate, it starts to get more crunchy as you add in more Extras, which means that both Dresden Files versions are crunchier than Core (even Dresden Files Accelerated, characters become heavily Stunt-based). It never gets overly crunchy but you can still get to a decent level.

Definitely high fantasy for genre; we all want to finish out the campaign. The issue with Fate/Fudge is that the way they're set up requires some serious hacking to deal with the sort of scaling players get between 10 and 15 in PF, which is what the campaign has been building towards (localized Prime Material conflict that they know is going to lead to a widespread Planescape conflict).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The issue with Fate/Fudge is that the way they're set up requires some serious hacking to deal with the sort of scaling players get between 10 and 15 in PF, which is what the campaign has been building towards (localized Prime Material conflict that they know is going to lead to a widespread Planescape conflict).

Definitely check out the Dresden Files version, then. It sorts of defaults to a much higher refresh than Core, and the supernatural power stunts can get seriously scary.

[Faolin]

That's the second time I've seen WOIN recommended. How does it handle with the sort of high fantasy a Planescape setting can get up to?

I would definitely use cinematic rules than, and let equipment go past max dice pool. The system is designed so that vertical progression falls off so I would have the skill keywords be a bit more loose as well.

[Delta]

I'll second (third? fourth?) Savage Worlds, checks all the boxes on your list perfectly in my opinion.

[Anonymouswizard]

That would be why I didn't mention it. It's not halfway between PF and Fate, it's right on par with Fate. It's still my favorite generic, and other than crunch level it's excellent for this.

Eh, taking Core as the benchline I consider Fudge slightly crunchier, but still nowhere near the halfway point mentioned. But all bar one requirement is worth mentioning in my opinion.

Definitely high fantasy for genre; we all want to finish out the campaign. The issue with Fate/Fudge is that the way they're set up requires some serious hacking to deal with the sort of scaling players get between 10 and 15 in PF, which is what the campaign has been building towards (localized Prime Material conflict that they know is going to lead to a widespread Planescape conflict).

Oh boy.

That's serious scaling. As in I've seen many games that just don't deal with that variance in power levels, let alone that range. Certainly nothing I own that's lighter than Pathfinder.

[Rhedyn]

If you need Pathfinder like scaling, then I recommend Shaintar for Savage Worlds. Characters deep into legendary get pretty powerful and the books come with the Bestiaries you need for that.

There is also a Pathfinder to Savage Worlds monster converter here http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/convert2.html

[Knaight]

Definitely high fantasy for genre; we all want to finish out the campaign. The issue with Fate/Fudge is that the way they're set up requires some serious hacking to deal with the sort of scaling players get between 10 and 15 in PF, which is what the campaign has been building towards (localized Prime Material conflict that they know is going to lead to a widespread Planescape conflict).

Fudge can do this with pretty minimal hacking, for a few reasons. Most notably it has a scale mechanic which is explicitly built to handle dramatic size differences, and which very elegantly allows for a game to handle both person scale conflict and massive capital ships and the like. The mechanic is also built to handle dramatic speed differences.

The only hacking necessary is expanding that one mechanic. Fate struggles here, having removed Scale (what I'd consider one of two distinctive mechanics, the other being the trait ladder Fate stole and butchered), but Fudge can handle it just fine.

[LibraryOgre]

My group has been playing Pathfinder for years. It's generally done fairly well, but we've recently been getting more and more frustrated with the length of combat and its inability to handle odd character concepts without an exorbitant amount of splat diving. This is nothing against PF, it's just that our group has drifted away from being its intended audience.

We're looking to migrate systems. Here's the wishlist:

• Crunch about halfway between PF and Fate
• Unified resolution system (same type of rolls for everything)
• Ability to handle diverse character concepts
• Short combat
• Easily hackable

My gut says that PbtA and Genesys are good choices, but I was hoping for other suggestions and/or advice on using those two.

PbtA is good, and Dungeon World is pretty straightforward and hackable. I also like Savage Worlds and D6 Fantasy

Savage Worlds is dx&d6, exploding, take the best of the two, usually against a 4 target number. Characters are diversified via Edges and Hindrances, and you can pretty easily hack new things into it... I've used to for Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, and Dragonlance hacks, and sat down with the Deluxe edition and spun out a story of bird-people, dwarves, and dark magic for a couple of pre-teens that was enjoyable... and used the same system for an entirely non-magic "Go beat up Nazis before D-day" scenario, again with kids.

D6 Fantasy is a bit more old school, a bit more heavy on the crunch, but still a good, solid system. It's the development of a system originally used for Star Wars.

[ZenoForce88]

If you don't mind a Japanese theme, and some high tech meshing with the fantasy I would advise Tends Bansho Zero. Fairly light, combat is fast, and there's a good deal of different character types. The hardest thing to get around is that it's run kind of like a play, where players and the GM can award a point that acts as exp and hero points for doing something awesome or just playing towards a fate.

It's not entirely set up for on-going type campaigns, but I've managed to get it to work with minimal effort.

[CharonsHelper]

Anyone else surprised that no one has mentioned D&D 5e yet? It's faster than Pathfinder, and with that knowledge there's relatively little to learn.

A bit too "GM may I" for my taste - but it's definitely much more streamlined than Pathfinder and it works pretty well.

[Anonymouswizard]

Similar to 5e, Fantasy AGE could work. Bear in mind it's a lot flatter in scale than D&D, I'd do level 5 to level 15ish as a very rough guess, but caters lose a lot of versatility.

It has three classes (Warrior, Rogue, and Mage), each of which gives some basic combat abilities (and spells for mages). Then you get focuses, which are a +2 to relevant rolls with that Characteristic, and Talents which are essentially feats split into three parts (or feat chains). Races are probably the best, a set of standard benefits then two results from a take, with mixed heritage characters getting to deal one of those rolls for a different race's table.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyone else surprised that no one has mentioned D&D 5e yet? It's faster than Pathfinder, and with that knowledge there's relatively little to learn.

A bit too "GM may I" for my taste - but it's definitely much more streamlined than Pathfinder and it works pretty well.

I wouldn't exactly call it "able to handle diverse character concepts" or "easily hackable," though. Also doesn't really match up with the power scaling described later on.

[RFLS]

It looks like we're going to run with Dungeon World and some pretty heavy hacking for it. Thank you for the advice, everyone!