How would society look like without guns?

[S@tanicoaldo]

Working on an alternative universe scenario where gunpowder and guns in general has never been invented, looking for insights on how that would turn out to be.

What effects such change would have in history? Would we still be using swords and spears?

[hymer]

What effects such change would have in history? Would we still be using swords and spears?

Well, let's be clear: Is it just gunpowder, or are other propellants also non-existent? IIRC, the first pneumatic guns were invented in the Renaissance, e.g.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Well, let's be clear: Is it just gunpowder, or are other propellants also non-existent? IIRC, the first pneumatic guns were invented in the Renaissance, e.g.

No gunpowrder and no form of gun what so ever.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that. No gunpowder, or just in general no projectiles beyond what can be powered by muscles and strings?

If the crossbow is the end-all of development for projectiles, armor would still rule the battlefields.

What would probably change even more things is fortresses. Cannon and artillery made fortresses ever more extreme, until the idea of a fortified position just became almost impossible. Without that, we'd still have walled cities, I'd expect. Which might actually severely limit the growth of said cities. We're back to long, costly sieges, which are mostly decided either by treachery, or either side running out of food and having to go home or surrender.

It leads to some strange questions, though. I mean, without gunpowder, does that also mean no bombs? No combustion engines? Without steam cannons, also no steam engines? No pneumatic cannons means no hydraulics?

We'd be stuck without any machinery beyond cranes, cogs and pulleys.

[hymer]

Also, is a crossbow sort of a gun and should be excluded? It shares many characteristics, at least. What about a rocket? They could be used for artillery purposes, but may be too gun-like.

[LibraryOgre]

So, where's the rest of your timeline? You're talking an AU with no firearms and, I guess, no explosives. Are they chemically impossible (i.e. if I summoned black powder from an alternate universe and set it on fire, it wouldn't significantly react), or just never invented? Are you trying to picture a 2018 CE without firearms, or a 1776 without firearms? What other conditions exist in the world (i.e. magic, extreme longevity, present and active deities, etc.)?

You can come up with a lot of scenarios, depending on how you want your branching points to go.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Rockets have been indeed around for centuries, similar to cannons. But I figure those are all out. What about powerful siege weapons powered by say steel springs? How about magnetic railguns (could have been a thing by now with no competition), or steam (pneumatic) powered cannons? Out as well? Those lasers they use to explode rockets in mid air? those sonic weapons they use to deter pirates? Molotov cocktails? High explosives (grenades, mines)? Chemical weapons? Nuclear weapons? Biological weapons? Details man, details.

If you forbid all tech that makes for potential better weapons than a sword then yes, swords would still be in use. As a side effect most civilian tech also wouldn't exist. No steam power for steam cannons is no steam trains. No gasoline for Molotov cocktails (or just giant armored gunless tanks which flatten everything) is no combustion engine. It takes a lot of productivity out of society and probably strands us somewhere halfway the industrial revolution. We might get the Eiffel tower if we're lucky, but even that would be hard to do without steam powered factories, not to mention no rail bridges to innovate the building techniques used. Going to the moon is right out.

If somehow only military applications of all of these technologies are impossible you get a modern world where people fight with medieval weapons, and inexplicably not with those huge SUV's they have, those diseases they cure or those fireworks they celebrate stuff with.

[The Jack]

Flamethrowers, tazers, chemical weapons, fireworks?


I mean, maybe if it was a setting where god said "you can't use X, Y or Z" then it'd all be cool and we could work out a scenario. But if we just went with a setting where the idea of launching projectiles from tubes with explosives never took off... which is reasonable because early guns just were awful and many debated their use... We'd still have bombs and such... I guess the only change would be that spree shootings would be replaced by random 'nade tossings. Maybe Aircraft would've been more of a nightmare to fight in the earlier parts of this century.

Oh, america would've won vietnam. It'd be a lot harder to wage guerrilla war without fast firing firearms. Guns are a great equalizer.

[S@tanicoaldo]

So, where's the rest of your timeline? You're talking an AU with no firearms and, I guess, no explosives. Are they chemically impossible (i.e. if I summoned black powder from an alternate universe and set it on fire, it wouldn't significantly react), or just never invented? Are you trying to picture a 2018 CE without firearms, or a 1776 without firearms? What other conditions exist in the world (i.e. magic, extreme longevity, present and active deities, etc.)?

You can come up with a lot of scenarios, depending on how you want your branching points to go.

Well I was being vague because I just wanted the broad strokes, if I added another variable(Magic) that would change the base image I'm trying to picture, but let's just say there is magic in the world, it's really rare and scarce, an epic wizard saw the future where guns would kill his loved one and used his own lifeforce to cast a spell that would force people to be unable to invent guns. It's an epic spell but no one is awere it exists.

2018 without firearms.

For the sake of argument let's say it's just like our world.

Rockets have been indeed around for centuries, similar to cannons. But I figure those are all out. What about powerful siege weapons powered by say steel springs? How about magnetic railguns (could have been a thing by now with no competition), or steam (pneumatic) powered cannons? Out as well? Those lasers they use to explode rockets in mid air? those sonic weapons they use to deter pirates? Molotov cocktails? High explosives (grenades, mines)? Chemical weapons? Nuclear weapons? Biological weapons? Details man, details.

If you forbid all tech that makes for potential better weapons than a sword then yes, swords would still be in use. As a side effect most civilian tech also wouldn't exist. No steam power for steam cannons is no steam trains. No gasoline for Molotov cocktails (or just giant armored gunless tanks which flatten everything) is no combustion engine. It takes a lot of productivity out of society and probably strands us somewhere halfway the industrial revolution. We might get the Eiffel tower if we're lucky, but even that would be hard to do without steam powered factories, not to mention no rail bridges to innovate the building techniques used. Going to the moon is right out.

If somehow only military applications of all of these technologies are impossible you get a modern world where people fight with medieval weapons, and inexplicably not with those huge SUV's they have, those diseases they cure or those fireworks they celebrate stuff with.

Only guns, all those forms of weapons in special explosives are ok.

Flamethrowers, tazers, chemical weapons, fireworks?

Fireworks use gunpowder no?

[LibraryOgre]

Ok, well, with that, I think you wind up looking primarily at conflict and crime. What uses are firearms currently put to, and what would replace them?

For military purposes, I'd say you'd see a lot more focus on explosives. Since I can't spray an area with bullets, what if I spray an area with shrapnel?

For home defense, I'd lean towards variants on the crossbow... possibly something like an electric motor to easily **** a crossbow? Still low ROF, but easier to use?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Aaah, okay...

My first thought is that armor would be pretty dominant, as in tanks. They have the explosives to bust through them, but limited means of delivery. You can leave surprises mines, try to sneak up on them or drop bombs from the sky. The downside is that the guns on tanks are impossible as well, so maybe flamethrowers? Or powerful crossbows or catapults firing grenades? Some form of hydraulics powered and made using modern materials and designs of course, so not limited to medieval strength. Airburst grenades, frag grenades, cluster munitions...

Planes would also have an advantage for a while. Whoever invented the seeker missile is a filthy rich man in this universe. Radar guided munitions and stuff should bring planes back into check, except they might encourage our stealth craze even a bit more.

As for infantry weapons... Maybe they switched away from infantry more than we did? Maybe crossbows of some sort? Like those Chinese repeating crossbows/chu ko nu for the Age of Empires players, but with a pneumatic component that amplifies the power that can be put into it? Maybe the rate of fire as well, fully automatic crossbows style? Or does that fall under the spell? Maybe electric weapons, like tesla guns? Nah, too easy to armor against... Maybe flamethrowers and squirtguns loaded with chemical weapons? I figure modern wars would be fought with ranged weapons either way. There is no armoring a person against flame throwers or grenade slingers or napalm bombardments or stuff like that, so you have to engage at range.

I'm just not sure what Texans would all be crazy about in this world. Barbecued sausages? Show horses? Pickup trucks and things that are bigger in Texas? You know what? On second thought I figure they'll be fine.

[Rhedyn]

Well without guns, the Natives would have done a lot better. Early guns were bad for morale, without them the Natives could have stopped the invasion of their lands even with disease still being present.

Now to not have guns you either need to limit combustion or metallurgy. Both of these can be done by removing fossil fuels. This easy source of energy was responsible for tough alloys needed for gun barrels. Even if you remove gunpowder, the presence of fossil fuels would still allow for guns.

Now this means a world without guns also lacks cars and would be much more dependent on green energy. We would be much farther behind in technology without that easy access of energy.

I don't think the world would be as unified. Consistent power grids would be difficult to run so society would be built around infrequent power / battery power during times of low wind or sunlight. Only cities near powerful falls or geothermal locations would have consistent electricity. Which would make those City states far stronger than anyone else.

[Berenger]

Well without guns, the Natives would have done a lot better. Early guns were bad for morale, without them the Natives could have stopped the invasion of their lands even with disease still being present.

Steel armor, steel swords, steel crossbows, war horses, war dogs, weaponized diseases and liberal use of native allies / mercenaries on the part of the invaders would be more than enough advantages to ensure the same result for the Americas at least, I think.

[The Jack]

[QUOTE=Rhedyn;22947403]Well without guns, the Natives would have done a lot better. Early guns were bad for morale, without them the Natives could have stopped the invasion of their lands even with disease still being present.

No, even without firearms europeans were leaps and bounds better off than americans (I assume you refer to them). They had better weapons, incomparably better armour (which they'd still be using and improving if they didn't get so good with guns), better construction techniques/fortifications and in general just better technology.

Maybe Australians would fair a little better, but I really mean "a little". Like "6%" instead of "3%" The Americans could've had such a boost, but there's little chance they'd stop the invasion.

[S@tanicoaldo]

For home defense, I'd lean towards variants on the crossbow...

Sounds cool to me

[Mastikator]

Well I was being vague because I just wanted the broad strokes, if I added another variable(Magic) that would change the base image I'm trying to picture, but let's just say there is magic in the world, it's really rare and scarce, an epic wizard saw the future where guns would kill his loved one and used his own lifeforce to cast a spell that would force people to be unable to invent guns. It's an epic spell but no one is awere it exists.

2018 without firearms.

For the sake of argument let's say it's just like our world.

No gun related crimes. Nobody has guns. Wars are still fought with halberds and full body steel armor.

Then people would realize that there's a better way of killing people than holding a sharp metal object. It's driving a big metal object into people. Vehicles would probably be the main weapon, since chemically propelled metal balls are forbidden it would probably be spiked or something. Think Mad Max Fury Road but in good condition and done by sane civilized people.

There would also not be any cannons or artillery so castles are still effective, but with modern technology we can make big concrete walls around cities if we want. So all cities would have very tall big concrete walls surrounding them. Probably in layers since cities grow.

Borders between non-friendly nations would probably feature walls. I mean they already do, but a lot lot more.

Since using swords, knives and halberds to kill people is a lot more personal and difficult I would expect to see less violent crime and more collateral damage in war. War would drive soldiers to think raiding is okay more so than guns and artillery and airstrikes do, so collateral damage would be intentional rather than mostly accidental/negligent.

[Rhedyn]

Steel armor, steel swords, steel crossbows, war horses, war dogs, weaponized diseases and liberal use of native allies / mercenaries on the part of the invaders would be more than enough advantages to ensure the same result for the Americas at least, I think.

Steel is probably far less common if you can't make gun barrels or lack combustion energy sources.

[LordEntrails]

{{scrubbed}}

But, no guns but everything else? (Not sure how you would do that without removing certain key technologies, but...)

Chemical and biological weapons would be much more prominent and from a practical point would probably never have been outlawed in international treaties.

Nomadic tribes wouldn't really exist after ... 1800?

Criminal and criminal activity would change, the strong would prevail. Police would be less effective because criminals would always have to be subdued with force and not the threat of force.

Woman and social minorities would be more victimized than they are now without a means to defend themselves from more aggressive males or larger groups.

International politics would be vastly different. The United States and other military powers would not be able to project their will nearly as effectively as they do.Don't know if such might result in a more centralized international consensus, or less.

[FreddyNoNose]

No gunpowrder and no form of gun what so ever.

so you have arrows?

If you recall history, canons and mortars ruined castles. Guns ruined armor. So without those, we would advance in those areas. castles armor and such.

There could be other improvements? How about steam engines/trains? Balloons? Mass production? Math, account, medicine, and etc. Your question is far too open ended.

[S@tanicoaldo]

There could be other improvements? How about steam engines/trains? Balloons? Mass production? Math, account, medicine, and etc. Your question is far too open ended.

What does any of that has to do with the existence of guns?

[Sgt_Dubie]

I have to agree with the last post. Criminal activity would be worse, weak being more easily victimized. Mass killings wouldn’t stop, but the weapons would be swords or explosives. Wars would be longer, more drawn out. There would be a lot more persistent Cold War type atmosphere going one globally.

I also don’t see how to accomplish no guns but keep, say, the internal combustion engine... a piston is basically a bullet, fired down a barrel (cylinder) by a rapidly expanding gas created by burning a combustible (gasoline) set off by a primer (spark plug). The only thing really keeping the piston from going anywhere is the crankshaft.... this world would likely just shape up into something that resembles a more civilized but technology impaired medieval setting in 2018

[Rhedyn]

What does any of that has to do with the existence of guns?

What prevents guns from being a thing has consequences.

Unless the reason is a reality bending rule that "guns" simply aren't, then the consequences of no guns becomes less.

[Tiadoppler]

Flamethrowers. Flamethrowers everywhere, attached to everything.

Aircraft would be supremely dominant until the invention of guided SAMs (assuming that explosives still work, but everyone just has a mental block re: guns). Without AA guns or effective (WWI/WWII era) fighter/interceptor weaponry, bombers would be even more effective and devastating.

Biological and chemical weapons might be much more common, and seen as a quick, decisive way to end a battle rather than a war crime.

Personal ranged weaponry would be relatively limited in kinetic energy and reload time, and so might rely more heavily on lethal electric shocks, poisons, acids, toxins, etc.

There would have been significantly more effective resistance to Europe's colonists around the world. A few ships full of crossbowmen do not have the same ability to project power as ships with a broadside of cannons and musketeers/riflemen. The world would not be nearly as influenced by European culture. The nations and borders of the world would be completely different. For example, the US would not exist, although Britain might have a few colonies on the east coast of North America.


Edit:
Perhaps, eventually, after rocketry has been invented and developed for a while, some combination of a crossbow and a Gyrojet gun would be developed, creating non-'firearm' personal ranged weaponry that shares many of the same characteristics as modern firearms.

[FreddyNoNose]

What does any of that has to do with the existence of guns?

I answered your question. Did you notice? Then I added more.

You asked what society would look like without them. Other areas would still advance.

[Karl Aegis]

No skeet ranges. Doesn't really change society as a whole, but it limits forms of entertainment. No fireworks either. So less smuggling of fireworks, probably.

[Luz]

No cowboys or western movies.

[Blackhawk748]

You mentioned that there is magic (even though its rare) and with that and no guns im pretty sure the mages will wind up being in charge, simply because they could very well just destroy multiple individuals in full plate (which would continue to advance, though i have no idea how). With power like that people would flock to them.

[LibraryOgre]

No cowboys or western movies.

Joe Abercrombe, The Red Country

[Brother Oni]

Just to be that guy, modern smokeless powders aren't the same thing as black powder (what's commonly called gunpowder); modern firearms don't use gunpowder any more as they've all been replaced by single/double/triple base powders which are a mix of nitrocellulose/nitroglycerin/nitroguanidine (although artillery are the only things that tend to use triple base powders).

It begs the question though, if black powder didn't exist, but explosives do, wouldn't people just use explosives as the propellent instead?

In terms of weaponry, much more development into DEWs although rail/coil guns seem to fall into the prohibited category. I wouldn't be surprised if battery technology was also more advanced and law enforcement/military had man sized pulsed energy projectiles.

[Sgt_Dubie]

... modern firearms don't use gunpowder any more as they've all been replaced by single/double/triple base powders which are a mix of nitrocellulose/nitroglycerin/nitroguanidine (although artillery are the only things that tend to use triple base powders).

pulsed energy projectiles.

Just to be another ‘that guy’ I have more than one gun in my cabinet, manufactured in the 21st century, that uses black powder in either front stuffing methods or built cartridges....