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Thread: Tier 3+ spells

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Tier 3+ spells

    What spells if they were class features would kick the class up to tier 3 or higher?

    Essentially which spells are better in and of themselves then the combined class features of a tier 4?

    The easy ones are spells like Shadow Conjuration (imitates lots of spells at once), planar ally (nets you an ally that is often stronger then you), and polymorph (take on monster features).

    I'm going to ignore level 9 spells and epic magic, because the game really cracks there.
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    I don't think any one spell would, assuming it's gained at a typical expected level for the spell (7 for Polymorph, 13 for Limited Wish, etc.) and the starting chassis is an NPC class.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    The only notable ability is the combination of Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer which gives you some really nasty abilities starting at level 15 when you can turn into the Phasm.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    I tend to agree. The guy who has just planar binding is (at a high enough level of power for planar binding to matter) probably better than most non-casters. Except he gets his first ability at 11th level, so for half the game he has nothing going on.

    Obviously getting planar binding at 1st level would do it, but there are very few 6th level spells you could get at 1st level that wouldn't be absurd (basically, greater dispel magic and any status restoration effects).

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Planar Ally is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Planar Binding on the other hand is awesome.

    If you want spells with xp costs and versatility there is limited wish.

    Surge of Fortune forces natural 20s which enables vorpal strategies among other ridiculous things.

    Girallon's Blessing gives you 4 claw attacks which is crazy good early game if you have a high str score for damage.

    Fly

    Greater Dimension Door

    Greater Blink

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I tend to agree. The guy who has just planar binding is (at a high enough level of power for planar binding to matter) probably better than most non-casters. Except he gets his first ability at 11th level, so for half the game he has nothing going on.
    Obviously we're only considering the character's tier at levels where they have the ability.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    I think Alter Self as an at-will class feature, even with the 5 HD cap, would bump a lot of tier 4s up to tier 3.

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Gullintanni View Post
    I think Alter Self as an at-will class feature, even with the 5 HD cap, would bump a lot of tier 4s up to tier 3.
    For existing classes, maybe. But on an NPC class with no other class features (or I guess if we're not considering lower levels, a monster race with however-many racial hit dice and no other racial abilities), I don't think so.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    alter self is probably good enough at 3rd to maybe 7th level (particularly if you're an outsider or something). But it's kind of crap at high levels. Being able to turn into a 5-HD outsider is probably nor enough to compete with (say) +10d6 Sneak Attack even if it's good enough to compete with +3d6 Sneak Attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Obviously we're only considering the character's tier at levels where they have the ability.
    I mean, that's not how the Tier System nominally works, but sure.

    In that case, the answer is "any of the broken Wizard spells". If you just care about the level range around the ability (which, if we're throwing out the concept of covering the whole progression, why not?) the answer is "pretty much any good Wizard spell". Getting just cloudkill at 9th level makes you a one-trick pony, but it wouldn't be ineffective.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    I honestly think we're looking at it wrong here. Giving a fighter one spell won't push them up unless the spell is already really powerful, and if the spell makes no thematic sense then it shouldn't be added to the fighter class.

    Here is my idea:
    Spoiler: Modified Fighter
    Show

    LVL BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1 1 2 0 0 Bonus Feat
    2 2 3 0 0 Bonus Feat
    3 3 3 1 1 Extraordinary Spell
    4 4 4 1 1 Bonus Feat
    5 5 4 1 1 Extraordinary Spell
    6 6/1 5 2 2 Bonus Feat
    7 7/2 5 2 2 Extraordinary Spell
    8 8/3 6 2 2 Bonus Feat
    9 9/4 6 3 3 Extraordinary Spell
    10 10/5 7 3 3 Bonus Feat
    11 11/6/1 7 3 3 Extraordinary Spell
    12 12/7/2 8 4 4 Bonus Feat
    13 13/8/3 8 4 4 Extraordinary Spell
    14 14/9/4 9 4 4 Bonus Feat
    15 15/10/5 9 5 5 Extraordinary Spell
    16 16/11/6/1 10 5 5 Bonus Feat
    17 17/12/7/2 10 5 5 Extraordinary Spell
    18 18/13/8/3 11 6 6 Bonus Feat
    19 19/14/9/4 11 6 6 Extraordinary Spell
    20 20/15/10/5 12 6 6 Bonus Feat


    Bonus Feat: As fighter bonus feats

    Extraordinary Spell: At Third Level a Fighter gains a single First Level Transmutation Spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
    At 5th level a fighter gains a first or second level transmutation spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
    Etc so forth

    Spells this would give him access to: Enlarge Person, Bullís Strength, Alter Self, Polymorph, Haste, Fly, and many others, if we restrict the list to only the wizard list.
    Finally set the Duration on all of these spells to be only Rounds/level.



    Something similar could be done for many of the martial classes. This would solidly push a fighter to T3 by giving him versatility, while not making him more powerful than any spellcaster as a spellcaster. It would also give them less reliance on spellcasters to fight certain threats.
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    I think I would open up all the spell lists. Make a definitive list to choose from. At least as an (EX) using in armor won't be a problem ;). I am starting in a new campaign in a 2 or 3 weeks and know I can get the DM to let me try this, at least till level 10 or so (her campaigns usually end around there).
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Obviously we're only considering the character's tier at levels where they have the ability.
    This. I'm essentially looking to see what effects are good enough to be high tier, when you get them is less relevant.

    For instance Solid Fog/Black Tentacles are very strong, but at-will black tentacles would cap out at tier 4 because it is just a hammer.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2018-04-03 at 09:06 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    This. I'm essentially looking to see what effects are good enough to be high tier, when you get them is less relevant.

    For instance Solid Fog/Black Tentacles are very strong, but at-will black tentacles would cap out at tier 4 because it is just a hammer.
    Tier 5 or 6 because most things are either immune or it doesn't effect most things past a certain level. You're mostly going to be using it on humanoids and animals that can't fly so it loses it's luster when giants and just generally strong or big things start showing up.
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Instead of looking at just one spell, why not look at a progression of spells, like alterself-->Polymorph-->Draconic polymorph-->Shapechange or prestidigitation-->limited wish---> Wishat the levels that a wizard gains access, to see if its good enough to maintain the character at tier 3 when on either a warrior, expert, adept or magewright.

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Instead of looking at just one spell, why not look at a progression of spells, like alterself-->Polymorph-->Draconic polymorph-->Shapechange or prestidigitation-->limited wish---> Wishat the levels that a wizard gains access, to see if its good enough to maintain the character at tier 3 when on either a warrior, expert, adept or magewright.
    I think the creation line would count as tier 3 under those. Minor creation at level 1, major at level 8, true creation at level 15.
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    For existing classes, maybe. But on an NPC class with no other class features (or I guess if we're not considering lower levels, a monster race with however-many racial hit dice and no other racial abilities), I don't think so.
    Exactly as I said - it has the potential to bump a tier 4 to a tier 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    alter self is probably good enough at 3rd to maybe 7th level (particularly if you're an outsider or something). But it's kind of crap at high levels. Being able to turn into a 5-HD outsider is probably nor enough to compete with (say) +10d6 Sneak Attack even if it's good enough to compete with +3d6 Sneak Attack.
    Even at high levels, it can add natural attacks, natural armor, skill bonuses and movement forms like flight. That's a lot of at will utility for say, a Barbarian.

    Like I said, tier 4 increases to tier 3.

    A high level Summon Monster spell would probably do the trick without any other class behind it.
    Last edited by Gullintanni; 2018-04-04 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Gullintanni View Post
    Exactly as I said - it has the potential to bump a tier 4 to a tier 3.
    I know that's what you said. But the question in this thread is whether it would be enough for a class that had nothing else.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    I honestly think we're looking at it wrong here. Giving a fighter one spell won't push them up unless the spell is already really powerful, and if the spell makes no thematic sense then it shouldn't be added to the fighter class.

    Here is my idea:
    Spoiler: Modified Fighter
    Show

    LVL BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1 1 2 0 0 Bonus Feat
    2 2 3 0 0 Bonus Feat
    3 3 3 1 1 Extraordinary Spell
    4 4 4 1 1 Bonus Feat
    5 5 4 1 1 Extraordinary Spell
    6 6/1 5 2 2 Bonus Feat
    7 7/2 5 2 2 Extraordinary Spell
    8 8/3 6 2 2 Bonus Feat
    9 9/4 6 3 3 Extraordinary Spell
    10 10/5 7 3 3 Bonus Feat
    11 11/6/1 7 3 3 Extraordinary Spell
    12 12/7/2 8 4 4 Bonus Feat
    13 13/8/3 8 4 4 Extraordinary Spell
    14 14/9/4 9 4 4 Bonus Feat
    15 15/10/5 9 5 5 Extraordinary Spell
    16 16/11/6/1 10 5 5 Bonus Feat
    17 17/12/7/2 10 5 5 Extraordinary Spell
    18 18/13/8/3 11 6 6 Bonus Feat
    19 19/14/9/4 11 6 6 Extraordinary Spell
    20 20/15/10/5 12 6 6 Bonus Feat


    Bonus Feat: As fighter bonus feats

    Extraordinary Spell: At Third Level a Fighter gains a single First Level Transmutation Spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
    At 5th level a fighter gains a first or second level transmutation spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
    Etc so forth

    Spells this would give him access to: Enlarge Person, Bullís Strength, Alter Self, Polymorph, Haste, Fly, and many others, if we restrict the list to only the wizard list.
    Finally set the Duration on all of these spells to be only Rounds/level.



    Something similar could be done for many of the martial classes. This would solidly push a fighter to T3 by giving him versatility, while not making him more powerful than any spellcaster as a spellcaster. It would also give them less reliance on spellcasters to fight certain threats.
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    If the 1 level-appropriate spell could change with the level as appropriate this seems doable. Something like:
    Level 1-2: Power word pain.
    Level 3-4: Alter Self.
    Level 5-6: Anyspell
    Level 7-8: Summon Giants?
    Level 9-10: Draconic Polymorph
    Level 11-12: Greater Anyspell
    Level 13-14: .... not sure
    Level 15-16: Polymorph Any Object
    Level 17-18: Shapechange (or Miracle? It depends on the number of spells/day)

    This might even qualify for Tier 2.

    A divine crusader that managed to get access to both the Spell and Transformation domains would be a fair approximation of the above.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Gullintanni View Post
    I think Alter Self as an at-will class feature, even with the 5 HD cap, would bump a lot of tier 4s up to tier 3.
    A lot of spells obtained at the appropriate level are super powerful at will. 1/day OTOH, nah.
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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    A divine crusader that managed to get access to both the Spell and Transformation domains would be a fair approximation of the above.
    1. Divine Crusaders only get 1 domain.
    2. By direct RAW no deity has the Transformation Domain, therefore unavailable to the Divine Crusader.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    1. Divine Crusaders only get 1 domain.
    2. By direct RAW no deity has the Transformation Domain, therefore unavailable to the Divine Crusader.
    There are prestige classes that add additional domains

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    1. Divine Crusaders only get 1 domain.
    2. By direct RAW no deity has the Transformation Domain, therefore unavailable to the Divine Crusader.
    Yeah, tricky. Maybe Divine Crusader[spell] who turns agnostic and picks up Transformation via Contemplative?
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Yeah, tricky. Maybe Divine Crusader[spell] who turns agnostic and picks up Transformation via Contemplative?
    Contemplative says it grants a bonus domain available to you by your Deity or Alignment, as in if you're agnostic you can only get law, chaos, good, or evil domains via contemplative.

    Also I'm pretty sure no deity = no divine crusader. So if you become agnostic you can never advance in a divine crusader again in addition to losing all spells.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    A shapechanger that worships a pantheon should be RAW

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    A shapechanger that worships a pantheon should be RAW
    I'm not familiar with pantheon rules. I guess this does satisfy Transformation Domain's RAW as the shapechanger doesn't worship a specific deity, but the RAW for a Divine Crusader is "Every divine crusader has a chosen deity." If the Pantheon rules says to ignore these restrictions then I guess you're good to go.

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    Default Re: Tier 3+ spells

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    I'm not familiar with pantheon rules. I guess this does satisfy Transformation Domain's RAW as the shapechanger doesn't worship a specific deity, but the RAW for a Divine Crusader is "Every divine crusader has a chosen deity." If the Pantheon rules says to ignore these restrictions then I guess you're good to go.
    Divine Crusader uses the term chosen, and not worshiped so it works. Also, the DC doesn't loose its casting by turning its back on its chose deity just by alignment change

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