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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Jul 2007
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    Lightbulb Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components. The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

    Goal: Create a build that showcases the selected ingredients while steering clear of the Forbidden Ingredient.


    This competition has two Necessary Components and one Forbidden Component. This round's components are...

    • Necessary: From Complete Arcane... the Argent Savant prestige class!
    • Necessary: From Complete Mage... the Holy Scourge prestige class!
    • Forbidden: From PHB... the Wizard base class (including Specialist Wizards)!

    Pew pew pew!

    Round-Specific FAQ

    Contestants:

    The rules are as follows:
    • Creation: 32 point-buy is the presumed creation method. You may assume that you will have enough exp to reach ECL 20, and that the occasional bit of crafting, use of spells with exp components, or the like won't prevent you from doing so. However, LA buyoff is an alternate rule which is not in play.
    • Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, please link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed, as are Oriental Adventures and the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt and fractional saves are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.
    • Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until after the reveal in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    • Disputes: Any scoring disputes should be sent to the Chair via PM. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes will be posted in-thread for the judge to review. When disputing, please indicate the judge the dispute is intended for and provide a quote of the disputed comment or comments. Note: the Chair may edit or paraphrase any disputes in presenting them to the judges.
    • Leadership is banned: We're creating one thing, not all of the things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
    • Presentation: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability throughout its life. Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries. Also for this reason, PLEASE do not include any material that may or may not offend any potential viewers/judges/competitors OR break forum rules. Any builds which violate forum rules WILL be withheld from posting.

    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, please use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities

    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code immediately below (spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

    Judges:

    • Scoring: Each judge is required to provide the criteria by which they are judging the builds. By "criteria," we mean a simple explanation of what the judge is looking for in each of the below categories and what kind of scoring we can expect. If a judge deems a build to be illegal, they may provide a 0 in Elegance but may not refuse to judge any build presented by the Chairman.
    • The Categories: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Components.

      • Originality: Is the build unique? Does it deviate from the obvious? Does it forge its own path, or does it fall back on common, established optimization tricks? Some judges score entries for the quality of their concept & backstory as well, though not all do. Providing at least some backstory is heavily encouraged, as it helps the judges figure out who the entry is. Note that the purpose of this category is not to penalize entries that independently came up with the same idea as another entry, but rather to reward entries that explore underutilized and non-obvious areas of optimization, so, judges, try not to base your judging in this category too heavily on what other builds are doing. Multiple entries using the same element may certainly be evidence that the element is unoriginal, but you shouldn't impose anything like a "-1 for each other build using the same class" penalty.
      • Power: Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
      • Elegance: This category was formerly titled "Build Stability." Here, we're essentially measuring how skillfully you put your build together and how you balanced flavor with power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing (meaning any multiclassing that results in an xp penalty), and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, may lose you points. Rule adherence and legality of sources is scored under this category; additionally, reliance on a questionable, controversial, or ambiguous ruling can and should result in a deduction. Neither the number of sources nor their relative obscurity should be penalized--contestants should feel free to use any books they like. Dipping should not be penalized unless it results in a multiclass xp penalty; if the system won't penalize it, neither should judges.
      • Use of Components: Was the Forbidden Component avoided? Were the Necessary Components showcased, or simply used because they were necessary?
    • Disputes: Any scoring disputes will be posted by the Chairman in-thread after reviewing them privately. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes should be responded to by each individual judge. Judges are obligated to respond to disputes to ensure that everyone gets a fair shake. A judge's scores will only be recognized if they have recognized all disputes. In the absence of any other judges, the entries will be judged by the chairman.


    Completion Time:
    • Contestants will have until 23:59 PM GMT Wednesday April 25th to create their builds and PM them to the chairman.
    • Builds will then be posted simultaneously to avoid copying.
    • Judges will have until 23:59 PM GMT Wednesday May 2nd to judge the builds and submit their scores. Judging deadline is subject to extension as required.
    • As the precedent has been set from Episode 2, should all prospective judges have posted their rulings in a neat, timely fashion and all disputes have been settled satisfactorily (to either judges, contestants, or the Chairperson), the judging period may end prematurely to give way to a new episode. No reason to keep working on a finished building and avoid moving onto the next one.


    So who wants to sign up as a contestant and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing! We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build that doesn't gain a medal. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread. Ready? Steady? Get to the junkyard and start building!

    Previous Competitions:
    1. Junkyard Wars in the Playground I: Shadowdancer + Sneak Attack - Rogue
    2. Junkyard Wars in the Playground II: Healing Spells + Ruby Knight Vindicator - Cleric
    3. Junkyard Wars in the Playground III: Dragons + Theurges - Kobolds
    4. Junkyard Wars in the Playground IV: BoED + Undead Type - Completes
    5. Junkyard Wars in the Playground V: Dread Witch + Reaping Mauler - Fighter
    6. Junkyard Wars in the Playground VI: Wonderworker + Profession Skill - Factotum
    7. Junkyard Wars in the Playground VII: Metamagic Feats + LA - Metamagic Reducers!
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    Post Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Aregnt Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard









    FAQ continued
    • On a completely unrelated topic, are the generic classes (specifically, the generic spellcaster class) from UA allowed?
    • While not specifically stated, please assume this competition uses the same restrictions as Iron Chef (this will be updated in the future OPs of upcoming competitions):

    Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.
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    • Okay, I've got another question/comment. Holy Scourge gives the arcane smite ability, which functions like the a paladin class feature. According to the SRD, Smite evil adds damage equal to your paladin level to the attack. Does this mean that a Holy scourge without Paladin levels does not gain bonus damage when using arcane smite?
    • I'm ruling that Arcane Smite adds your Holy Scourge level to damage (as well as Cha bonus to hit, where applicable).

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Instant Inspiration? Uh Oh looks like I won't be judging this one!
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    I've never even heard of holy scourge before. I can see why. What a piece of crap.

    I'm in to cook.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Assuming life doesn't throw me any more curveballs like it has this past month (SO hospitalized twice, cross country flights, work prep for holidays, etc.) I'd love to cook something up. I even have the skeleton of a build already.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    I have some thoughts on this. I'll try to get something together before the deadline.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Seems interesting, I'd be up to judge this. Interested to see what people cook up
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Huh. I had never noticed that Argent Savant requires 5th level spells before. That seems a little bit unnecessary, considering how little the class gives in return, but I guess that's why it doesn't come up much in optimization discussions, even above and beyond the fact that it loses caster levels without giving terribly much that can be described as anything other than "numbers" (and not particularly amazing numbers).

    I have about half of an idea, but I'm not sure it's legal by RAW. I'm also very busy for the next week or so, so I probably won't get anything in. But I bet the results will be pretty interesting.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    holy scourge is terrible. It's not even fun to play (code of stupid conduct) and it gives you almost nothing in return.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    holy scourge is terrible. It's not even fun to play (code of stupid conduct) and it gives you almost nothing in return.
    I see one potential bit of sideways RAWyery that could potentially be BS'd into working in ways that don't seem to be intended, but there's a nontrivial limitation in the way that I may not find a way around. If I don't submit an entry that takes advantage of it (and no one else does either), I'll try to remember to bring it up to you.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    holy scourge is terrible. It's not even fun to play (code of stupid conduct) and it gives you almost nothing in return.
    not only doesn't it give you anything, it somehow feels that this awesomeness is worth burning a caster level and not even giving you full bab. Aren't you supposed to be a paladin?

    Since wizard is banned, I don't think this is speculation (if I'm wrong, please tell me and I'll remove it) but I absolutely adore that they were too stupid to fix your smite, and say it works just like paladin's. If you entered as a wizard, I hope you put a ton of points in cha for absolutely no reason.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Holy Scourge is... wow. Just wow. It's a class that makes you sacrifice a caster level for the ability to lose all of the others as well.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Holy Scourge is... wow. Just wow. It's a class that makes you sacrifice a caster level for the ability to lose all of the others as well.
    I guess it doesn't specify who you're a scourge to.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    I might maybe, just maybe have the smallest hint of an idea.

    On a completely unrelated topic, are the generic classes (specifically, the generic spellcaster class) from UA allowed?
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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    In some ways, I think the Holy Scourge's Code of Conduct is worse than the Paladin's.

    Here's the SRD Paladin entry:

    Code of Conduct

    A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

    Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
    ...so you could probably forgive a Paladin for not mercilessly slaying the greedy merchant in his shop once he detects as evil.

    Holy Scourge however:

    Code of Conduct

    You must devote yourself to the destruction of evil, particularly those who use evil magic and innately evil creatures. You must not resort to evil methods to achieve these goals. You might briefly ignore a lesser evil for the sake of defeating a greater one, but otherwise you must make every reasonable effort to obliterate evil wherever you find it. Should you ever violate this code or step outside the boundaries of what is considered acceptable good-aligned behavior, you lose your holy scourge class features.
    The local villagers better hope you don't have access to Detect Evil.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    I'm pretty sure we default to iron chef rules and generic classes, spell points, and other alternative game options aren't allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    In some ways, I think the Holy Scourge's Code of Conduct is worse than the Paladin's.

    Here's the SRD Paladin entry:



    ...so you could probably forgive a Paladin for not mercilessly slaying the greedy merchant in his shop once he detects as evil.

    Holy Scourge however:



    The local villagers better hope you don't have access to Detect Evil.
    As hilarious as that is, I think the "reasonable effort" will let me off the hook without murdering every innkeeper who (to use D&D's own completely insane example of Evil behavior,) waters down his beer
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I'm pretty sure we default to iron chef rules and generic classes, spell points, and other alternative game options aren't allowed.



    As hilarious as that is, I think the "reasonable effort" will let me off the hook without murdering every innkeeper who (to use D&D's own completely insane example of Evil behavior,) waters down his beer
    Wait, what book and page is that example on? That sounds like it's part of a gloriously depraved argument, or at least that it's got some amusingly troubling implications.
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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I might maybe, just maybe have the smallest hint of an idea.

    On a completely unrelated topic, are the generic classes (specifically, the generic spellcaster class) from UA allowed?
    As Venger says, while not specifically mentioned in the OP, it's assumed we use the IC exclusions on UA material. I'll add an FAQ into the second post.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Wait, what book and page is that example on? That sounds like it's part of a gloriously depraved argument, or at least that it's got some amusingly troubling implications.
    I'll try to dredge it up for you. Top of my head, I can't remember what book it's in. It was in one of the sections pontificating about alignment, so probably boed or one of the fiendish codices. In the section it was in, it was basically arguing against playing the stereotypical psychopathic paladin who murders everyone that pings on detect evil and said that the alignment system does not have degrees of evil, so a genocidal dictator and an innkeeper who waters down his beer may both have Evil alignments, so you should use some common sense before you murder people in the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    As Venger says, while not specifically mentioned in the OP, it's assumed we use the IC exclusions on UA material. I'll add an FAQ into the second post.
    Thank you
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    got an idea ... but feel that it's so blindingly obvious that Vizzini is sure to happen ... trying to see if I can find something else

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Okay, I've got another question/comment. Holy Scourge gives the arcane smite ability, which functions like the a paladin class feature. According to the SRD, Smite evil adds damage equal to your paladin level to the attack. Does this mean that a Holy scourge without Paladin levels does not gain bonus damage when using arcane smite?
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    Okay, I've got another question/comment. Holy Scourge gives the arcane smite ability, which functions like the a paladin class feature. According to the SRD, Smite evil adds damage equal to your paladin level to the attack. Does this mean that a Holy scourge without Paladin levels does not gain bonus damage when using arcane smite?
    Huh. All of the class-granted smites I can easily find (Pally, Crusader, Soulborn) do specifically say "per paladin level" or "per crusader level" or "per soulborn level," never "per class level."

    On the one hand, I think you might be technically correct by RAW. On the other hand, I believe that Monks should be proficient with unarmed strikes.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    On the one hand, I think you might be technically correct by RAW. On the other hand, I believe that Monks should be proficient with unarmed strikes.

    Chair?
    Agreed. It was just something weird I came across while trying to figure out how to make this half of the ingredient work. I expect the design intent is that it scales of scourge level or maybe even caster level, but that's not what it says by RAW.

    Also, monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes? What the [four-letter-expletive]?
    Last edited by DeTess; 2018-04-08 at 04:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    Okay, I've got another question/comment. Holy Scourge gives the arcane smite ability, which functions like the a paladin class feature. According to the SRD, Smite evil adds damage equal to your paladin level to the attack. Does this mean that a Holy scourge without Paladin levels does not gain bonus damage when using arcane smite?
    Well spotted. I've checked the CM errata, and this issue is not addressed.

    I'm ruling that Arcane Smite adds your Holy Scourge level to damage (as well as Cha bonus to hit, where applicable).

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    Also, monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes? What the [four-letter-expletive]?
    Yeah, an unarmed strike is a simple weapon, and Monks are one of the few classes that aren't proficient with "all simple weapons." They have a whitelist of proficiencies that their class grants them, and it doesn't actually contain "unarmed strikes." Neither the IUAS feat or the Monk "unarmed strike" class feature says a single word about proficiency, either, so by RAW, a normal Monk is not proficient with their unarmed strikes.

    I've never seen a single game that doesn't houserule this away, to be fair. I think it's likely the single most common houserule in the entire game—partly because most folks don't read closely enough to know that it's a houserule, but even among those that know how the RAW works, I've never seen anyone choose to force the poor Monk to spend other resources (feats, levels, etc.) getting proficiency. But yeah. By the purest of pure RAW, the Monk is even worse than you thought.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2018-04-07 at 07:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Wait, what book and page is that example on? That sounds like it's part of a gloriously depraved argument, or at least that it's got some amusingly troubling implications.
    after combing my library to no avail, I've sought assistance to get to the bottom of this
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    ugh.

    awesome idea may be impossible to implement...

    don't wanna do back up idea :(

    damn you d&d.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    I've got a build stubbed out that I'm pretty happy with. I'm curious how the judges will feel about it.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    My Argent Savant build practically wrote itself, but trying to benefit from Holy Scourge is like drinking from a toilet.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard

    Yeah, the “argent savant” part is rather easy to make useful / fitting ... the “holy scourge” on the other hand is much harder, for all that the absolute numbers aren’t significantly worse (... well they are kinda, but also less restrictive)

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