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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Welcome back to the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer Edition! This one's gonna be really fun. I doubt too many people are expecting it.

    The form of this challenge is to take a particular D&D 3.5 base class (our "secret ingredient," or SI) and turn it into a functional E6 build, which must feature the SI as heavily as possible. (The only hard rule about this is that you must take at least one level in the SI, though judges are encouraged to look favorably on builds that take all or almost all of their levels in said SI.) Your final build submission should consist of your 6 regular levels and your first 10 epic bonus feats, though providing a snapshot at earlier points through the progression is heartily encouraged. Entries are to be PM'd to the Chair (that would be me!), and they will be posted anonymously; our volunteer judges will then grade each build on a 1-5 point scale in four categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Use of the Secret Ingredient. The builds with the highest three scores will be awarded medals, with the Honorable Mention award going to the non-medaling build that the Chair likes best and/or that receives the most votes for HM in this thread. (HM may not always be awarded, particularly if the number of builds is very small.) And then we all have cake!*

    *Note: You must provide your own cake.

    This is basically like the regular Iron Chef, and let's be brutally honest with ourselves here: this isn't a gargantuan community, and we basically all know what we're talking about at this point. Make the builds, send 'em in, post some scores, and have fun. If you've got questions, lemme know. Still, let's lay out a few rules!
    • Cooking Time: Builds must be submitted via PM to the Chair by 4:59 PM GMT - 8 on Thursday, May 03, 2018 (12:59 AM GMT on Friday, May 04). The reveal shall be on the first evening the Chair has free following the cooking deadline, which is hoped to be that evening or the immediately subsequent one. Judging is then expected (*cough*) to take no more than two weeks, so we'll put the judging deadline at approximately two weeks after that, with adjustments as necessary. (You can do the math yourselves; I don't want to put two dates here and confuse people.) Notice that this is slightly earlier in the day than previous deadlines; the goal is to have the deadline be around the time the Chair gets off of work on that particular day, thereby allowing him to post the builds without having to stay up super late or wait until the next day.
    • Kitchen: Let's break this one down a bit.

      Spoiler: Let's talk about sources
      Show
      • ALLOWED: Almost all D&D 3.5 material published by WotC: Core, Completes, monster books, Races Of books, alternate power source books (Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, etc.), Spell Compendium, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Eberron material, Forgotten Realms material, and other WotC-published 3.5 material. (This list is NOT exhaustive and there are many other legal books that I did not mention by name!)
      • ALLOWED: Material from the 3.5 archives of the Wizards of the Coast website (including, but not limited to, the Mind's Eye articles). If you use it, link it.
      • ALLOWED: Official errata from WotC. If you're relying on this in a material fashion, it's a good idea to link it and to discuss it.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Unofficial errata, including "class fixes" (regardless of the source, including from the original author if not published in a WotC book) or fan-created content.
      • ALLOWED: Unupdated WotC-published 3.0 material (e.g., Sword and Fist, Masters of the Wild, etc.) except for 3.0 psionics. No 3.0 psionics allowed. If you are using 3.0 material, use the general-purpose skill updates (Wilderness Lore becomes Survival, Innuendo becomes Bluff, etc.) and the general-purpose rules updates (spells with a casting time of "1 action" become "1 standard action," etc.) when appropriate.
      • NOT ALLOWED: 3.0 material for which a direct 3.5 update exists. Use the updated material instead.
      • ALLOWED: Dragon Compendium and its errata.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Content from Dragon Magazine and/or Dungeon Magazine unless said content appears in an otherwise allowed source.
      • ALLOWED: Oriental Adventures, including the 3.5 update to Oriental Adventures from Dragon Magazine #318. This is a specific exception to the "no Dragon" rule!
      • NOT ALLOWED: Pathfinder content, regardless of whether it is "D&D 3.5 OGL" or not. If it didn't come from WotC, we don't want it.
      • ALLOWED: From Unearthed Arcana: racial paragon classes, alternate class features/variant classes, spelltouched feats, and variant races. (Traits and flaws are technically legal, but traits warrant a -0.5 point penalty in Elegance, and flaws warrant a -1 penalty in Elegance.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: Other Unearthed Arcana content, including (but not limited to) bloodlines, LA buyoff, fractional BAB/saves, alternate casting systems, alternate skill systems, item familiars, prestigious character classes, generic classes, gestalt, etc.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Leadership, regardless of source. Game elements functionally equivalent to Leadership (including, but not limited to, Dragon Cohort, Undead Leadership, and Thrallherd) are similarly banned. (Familiars, Improved Familiar, animal companions, Wild Cohort, psicrystals, elemental envoys, and similar game elements are allowed, and they are not considered to be "Leadership." If the difference isn't obvious, feel free to contact the Chair with specific questions.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: Third-party content, homebrew, or other non-WotC content.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook. Just because you're "epic" in E6 after 6th level doesn't mean that you're that kind of epic.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Any race or template with a level adjustment other than +0. (Or any other source of LA other than a race or template, if any such things exist.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: For our judges: penalizing solely based on legal sources used, regardless of whether those sources are plentiful, sparse, common, obscure, or something in between. If the material is legal, then it doesn't matter how many or how few books it came out of.
      • ALLOWED: Also for our judges: penalizing for using a source (other than material in Core; don't be vindictive about genuinely obvious stuff) that isn't listed in the build writeup. The chef may choose to present the sources in-line with the text, in a consolidated source list, or somewhere else, but if the source is listed (and is otherwise legal), it counts. If the source is not listed, you may choose to penalize for that.

      If you have questions about anything in this section (or hell, in this ruleset), feel free to ask the Chair.

    • Character Creation: 32 point buy is assumed. For the purposes of this contest, Level Adjustment greater than +0 is banned. (This may be revised at a later point, but I don't feel that the E6 LA rules are conducive to fun in the context of this contest.) No more than two entries per chef per contest, please; if you submit two builds and somehow are so overcome with inspiration for a third that you can't help yourself, PM me and tell me which two you care about the most.
    • Speculation: Please do not post any form of speculation before the reveal. Just don't do it, guys. It's not cool. This means NOT posting any of the following or anything substantially similar: what you think is going to be common, significant elements of your planned build or of other potential builds, or anything else that could directly influence someone else's build choices for good or for ill. (It's acceptable to ask for rules clarifications as appropriate, but try to avoid tipping your hand too much.) Speculation is bad because it can discourage people from posting builds and can also "taint the judging pool" when it comes to Originality, so please just try to be aware of how other people might react to your speculation.
    • E6: Here's how E6 works for the purposes of this contest. Build your character normally for the first six levels. After you reach level 6, you stop gaining levels and start gaining bonus feats every time you would gain 5,000 XP. Since we aren't actually tracking XP, you'll basically list your first ten epic bonus feats in the order that you take them, and we think of them as being kind of like levels. We will not use the LA-equals-reduced-point-buy rules, instead preferring to just ban races with LA, at least for now. We will not use the "capstone feats"; all feats that you take must be normal legal 3.5 feats, not homebrew E6 ones. You may not use the Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook, though if for some reason there are non-Epic feats from the ELH that you qualify for, you may take those. (I don't think there are any, but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong.) It is up to the discretion of each judge whether this is a "hard E6" (magic above 3rd level spells is simply beyond mortal reach, items that have a listed CL above 6th are just plain not available, etc.) or a "soft E6" (if you can somehow get the magic on your character, it's yours, regardless of level), though I honestly don't expect it to come up. Don't go crazy with making assumptions about items and we probably won't have to find out.
    • Presentation: Here's a table for you to use. List your epic bonus feats (in clear order) after the table. If you find a clever way of formatting that that isn't annoying and that doesn't break anything, have fun; if it's portable, I may steal it for the next round. When sending your build or any disputes to the Chair, clearly include your build's name in the subject of the PM, and please present your build exactly as you want the Chair to copy and paste it into the thread.
      If you're using a picture, cite the source and follow any relevant citation rules. Because we have had issues with this in the past, when listing your skills, please make it very clear how many ranks you have at each level. There are multiple ways to do this and we do not wish to cramp anyone's individual style by dictating exactly how this must look, but make sure that somewhere in your entry there's an explanation of how many actual skill ranks you have. It's still fine to list total skill bonuses, if that's your style, but don't only list bonuses.
      Spoiler
      Show
      Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
      1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      Code for the table:
      Spoiler
      Show
      [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
      [tr]
      [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]1st[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]2nd[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]3rd[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]4th[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]5th[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]6th[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr][/table]

    • Contest houserules: Nearly the same as the main contest's rules here: all creatures are proficient with natural weapons they have or may acquire, bonus feats that are explicitly granted without meeting prereqs are usable even without those prereqs, and feats that affect which skills are class skills for you and/or how you spend your skill points (Able Learner, Martial Study, Truename Training, Apprentice, etc.) apply immediately at the level at which you take them (even though you normally spend skill points before taking a feat).
    • Judging guidelines: The minimum score in a category is 1, and the maximum is 5. Judges are expected to be fair, consistent, and open-minded, and they are expected to make a good-faith effort to engage with any reasonable disputes that arise, especially when RAW is in question. That said, contestants are asked to not dispute more than necessary; let's do everything in good faith and really only dispute when a judge is being inconsistent, being unfair, or is otherwise grossly misinterpreting a build.
      Judges may not penalize Originality solely because a build is a tribute or homage to an existing creative work (in or out of D&D canon; note that this is not the same thing as penalizing Originality for using well-known optimization tactics), nor may judges penalize based solely on sources used (whether those sources are plentiful, sparse, common, obscure, or something in between, you should judge the build elements and how they work together rather than what book or what books they came out of, as long as those books are legal for this contest and are cited in the entry).
      As with the main contest, we will follow the "One Mistake, One Penalty" guideline, and it is very important that the judges adhere to it. I'm going to directly copy and paste this from the main thread, and hopefully the original author won't mind too much:
      Spoiler
      Show
      Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

      Non-exhaustive list of examples:

      Skills
      Allowed:
      • Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
      • Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
      • Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs


      Not allowed:
      • Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation

      Prereqs
      Allowed:
      • Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
      • Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
      • Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
      • Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)


      Not Allowed:
      • "Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
      • Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes

      Other general things that are no longer allowed:
      • Penalising because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
      • Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalise if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.


      Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.

    • Other bits and bobs: If there's something major and relevant I haven't mentioned, assume that the way I handle it will probably be the same as the main contest unless stated otherwise or unless doing so would be an obviously absurd result. If you've got questions, I'll give you answers.



    This round's secret ingredient: the SHUGENJA, from Complete Divine! Allez Optimizer!

    The Builds:

    Name Race/Alignment Stub Score from Randuir Chef
    O-Pare NG Dragonborn Warforged Air Shugenja 6 15.5 daremetoidareyo
    Spirit of Fire LE Lesser Fire Genasi Fire Shugenja 6 14.5 thorr-kan
    Nazzy CN Kenku Air Shugenja 5 / Seeker of the Misty Isle 1 14 jdizzlean
    Huang Lu She LN Forestlord Half-Elf Air Shugenja 5 / Divine Oracle 1 12 thorr-kan



    Last edited by Zaq; 2018-05-18 at 09:05 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    The complaint with Hexblade was that its abilities were all 1/day and that there wasn't enough magic. "How can we do anything with just a single 1st level spell per day and maybe a curse or two?" was a common unstated refrain running through the Hexblade entries and the Hexblade discussion. Well, here you go: a full caster.

    If you're wondering why a full caster is bad enough to be a Secret Ingredient, I recommend reading the way that the Shugenja chooses spells very, very carefully. This ingredient has a much higher power baseline than some of the others I've given you, but that doesn't mean that you'll necessarily have as much magic as you want. (And remember the other limitations that come with having the chassis of a full caster.) Now remember that your competitors have the same amount of magic, and it's your job to stand out from the pack and differentiate yourself from the other Shugenjas next to you. You'll be wise not to forget about a single one of the judging categories: Originality counts just as much as Power and Elegance, and those count just as much as UoSI.

    I can't wait to see what you come up with!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Oooof I would love to make a Shugenja but I will definitely not have the time. Looking to judge this round I s'pose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Luccan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    It's not so much that Shugenja sucks. It's that it sucks for a full caster. I might give this one a go; it'll be my first Iron Chef entry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
    Avatar by linklele

    Spoiler: Build Contests
    Show

    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Oh, you gotta love the thorough editing on these books. "A shugenja casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics and druids), which are drawn from the shugenja spell list (page XX)." That's not me removing the page number, that's just a placeholder they forgot to update.

    Edit: I also love their example of the sense elements ability, which can be summarized as 'this ability as neat, but as you can see in this example, it's also useless.'

    Anyway, If I don't cook, I'll judge. we'll see which one it'll be.
    Last edited by DeTess; 2018-04-08 at 04:45 AM.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Say what?

    A shugenja casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics and druids), which are drawn from the shugenja spell list (page 144). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

    That's... confusing, to say the least.

    I'll try to whip up something for it. If not, I'll try my hand at judging.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Lol. You can sense earth but it's blocked if shielded by 3 feet of earth.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Lol. You can sense earth but it's blocked if shielded by 3 feet of earth.
    Working as intended. You sense there’s at least three feet of earth there

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhamBamSam's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    I have some thoughts on this which I may or may not actually get around to.

    Iron Chef Medals
    Spoiler
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    Sir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L

    Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII

    Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII

    Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII

    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

    Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV

    Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Long_shanks View Post
    Say what?

    A shugenja casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics and druids), which are drawn from the shugenja spell list (page 144). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

    That's... confusing, to say the least.
    I had to read it twice, but it does make sense if you read it like this:

    A shugenja casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics and druids), which are drawn from the shugenja spell list (page 144). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must

    So, the reference to wizards and clerics refers to preparing ahead of time. It's a weird way to say it though, as they could also have made the comparison with sorcerers or divine souls (also in that book), which don't have to prepare spells.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I had to read it twice, but it does make sense if you read it like this:

    A shugenja casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics and druids), which are drawn from the shugenja spell list (page 144). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must

    So, the reference to wizards and clerics refers to preparing ahead of time. It's a weird way to say it though, as they could also have made the comparison with sorcerers or divine souls (also in that book), which don't have to prepare spells.
    I know, but still that's horrific writing. It's just needlessly ambiguous, as if we needed that any more in DnD.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Luccan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Speaking of confusing writing, does the order a shugenja chooses have to reflect their chosen element (with the exception of ineffable mystery)? That seems particularly relevant to the challenge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
    Avatar by linklele

    Spoiler: Build Contests
    Show

    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


  13. - Top - End - #13
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Speaking of confusing writing, does the order a shugenja chooses have to reflect their chosen element (with the exception of ineffable mystery)? That seems particularly relevant to the challenge.
    It's a little ambiguous—we've got text saying that "the spell dictated by his order often belongs to that element as well" and "a shugenja's choice of specialized element is sometimes determined by the shugenja order in which he studies," which indicates that it's optional, but then the text about the Order of the Ineffable Mystery says that if you belong to that order, you "can specialize in any of the four elements," indirectly implying that belonging to other orders prevents you from choosing your specialty. It's entirely possible that the "sometimes" and "often" bits are simply a fudge factor to account for the anomalous Order of the Ineffable Mystery.

    The example given for Kitsu Mari says (my emphasis) "at 1st level, for example, the shugenja Kitsu Mari must know at least three 0-level water spells—one water spell determined by his order and two additional water spells, plus two other 0-level spells of any element. He also knows one 1st-level water spell from his order, one additional 1st-level water spell, and one 1st level spell of any element." Now, examples aren't always binding, but this example text seems to imply that Kitsu Mari's choice of specializing in water forced him to pick a water-based order, as it doesn't mention that Kitsu Mari actually chose a water-based order to go with his water specialty. It just treats it as a foregone conclusion—KM is specialized in water, and therefore he obviously has a water-based order as well. There's a reasonably strong implication there. The question is if we have enough text to go beyond "implication" and hit "rules."

    Does anyone care to set forth a particular rules argument one way or the other? If there's no agreement, I know which way I'll choose to rule, but I'm willing to hear arguments for or against the concept of your order hard-demanding a specific elemental specialization by RAW before I make a binding ruling.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    It's a little ambiguous—we've got text saying that "the spell dictated by his order often belongs to that element as well" and "a shugenja's choice of specialized element is sometimes determined by the shugenja order in which he studies," which indicates that it's optional, but then the text about the Order of the Ineffable Mystery says that if you belong to that order, you "can specialize in any of the four elements," indirectly implying that belonging to other orders prevents you from choosing your specialty. It's entirely possible that the "sometimes" and "often" bits are simply a fudge factor to account for the anomalous Order of the Ineffable Mystery.

    The example given for Kitsu Mari says (my emphasis) "at 1st level, for example, the shugenja Kitsu Mari must know at least three 0-level water spells—one water spell determined by his order and two additional water spells, plus two other 0-level spells of any element. He also knows one 1st-level water spell from his order, one additional 1st-level water spell, and one 1st level spell of any element." Now, examples aren't always binding, but this example text seems to imply that Kitsu Mari's choice of specializing in water forced him to pick a water-based order, as it doesn't mention that Kitsu Mari actually chose a water-based order to go with his water specialty. It just treats it as a foregone conclusion—KM is specialized in water, and therefore he obviously has a water-based order as well. There's a reasonably strong implication there. The question is if we have enough text to go beyond "implication" and hit "rules."

    Does anyone care to set forth a particular rules argument one way or the other? If there's no agreement, I know which way I'll choose to rule, but I'm willing to hear arguments for or against the concept of your order hard-demanding a specific elemental specialization by RAW before I make a binding ruling.
    I'd like to point out, I asked for a ruling for this Iron Chef specifically. I've seen arguments for both: when I first heard of shugenja, the only handbook I found assumed you didn't have to pick a matching order and element (but you couldn't get spells of your opposite element even if they were in your order. So you could be fire and pick a water order, but if it had a spell from the regular water list, you couldn't have it). When I more recently started a thread with that question (roughly 6 months ago), however, I was informed that in the Legend of the 5 Rings rpg (where shugenja originally comes from) you had to have an order that matched your element (barring Ineffable Mystery). So the closest rules argument I've seen relies on rules from another game.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    I tried googling this but only really found Luccan's thread.

    Imo, I would suggest the spell example to merely be using the most background friendly and the "sometimes" the most specific thing about whether it's allowed. But then, this is my first time ever even considering this, and its daunting enough even without, so I would say that right...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peat View Post
    I tried googling this but only really found Luccan's thread.

    Imo, I would suggest the spell example to merely be using the most background friendly and the "sometimes" the most specific thing about whether it's allowed. But then, this is my first time ever even considering this, and its daunting enough even without, so I would say that right...
    Don't be daunted. Get in there!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Long time lurker first poster, going to see what i can come up with.

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    I doubt I'll get a build in, but time permitting, I will do my best to judge.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peat View Post
    I tried googling this but only really found Luccan's thread.

    Imo, I would suggest the spell example to merely be using the most background friendly and the "sometimes" the most specific thing about whether it's allowed. But then, this is my first time ever even considering this, and its daunting enough even without, so I would say that right...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfsarkar View Post
    Long time lurker first poster, going to see what i can come up with.
    Welcome, welcome, welcome! I can't wait to see what you each come up with.

    My best advice for this whole contest is to never talk yourself out of things. Even if it doesn't go as planned, it'll almost certainly be more satisfying than the "safe" build you submitted instead, or the perfect build you just couldn't put together in time. (It's possible to be deeply flawed and still do very well indeed, so don't be scared!)

    Oh, and always double-check your prereqs. On everything. Trust me.


    Anyways folks, let's talk about elements and orders. After some really deep parsing of the rules, it seems to me that the devs intended for your order and your element to be linked. However, while that's really heavily implied in several different places, it's not hard-coded as an actual rule.

    However! What is hard-coded is that half of your spells per spell level (all the time, at every character level, including into Epic) must be of your favored element. Which means that if your order spell is not of your favored element, you'd better pick your other spells extremely carefully to make sure that you are meeting the "half at all times" criterion. For example, at level 1, you've got "o+1+1" spells known, representing your order spell, one favored-element spell, and one "other" spell. If your order spell isn't of your preferred element, your "other" spell had better be of your preferred element. Because if you have two nonpreferred spells (one order, one "other") and only one spell of your preferred element, then you're breaking the "half at all times" stricture (1 is not 1/2 of 3), and that's against the rules that are actually written down and not simply implied. 1st level is not the only level at which this is potentially relevant, and it's important to remember that the prohibition against learning opposed spells still applies to your order as well.

    Why yes, I did make Shugenja an ingredient for a reason.

    So yeah. Your order and your favored element do not have to be linked, but you are nonetheless beholden to the "half your spells of each spell level must always be from your favored element" rule at all times. Clear as mud?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    -snip-
    Appreciate the clarification. I shall get to work asap.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    How does the Shugenja's spells known restriction affect Sanctified and Corrupt spells (assuming that you pick(ed) up the Arcane Preparation feat or the like in order to gain the ability to cast them)?
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    Is this a good OJEBUWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES, or a bad OJFBUEWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    It's not so much that Shugenja sucks. It's that it sucks for a full caster..

    once upon a time, i attempted a full IC build based off shugenga. ( I thought it was awesome, the judge not so much) I'm not thrilled to revisit it, I'll judge this round :)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    How does the Shugenja's spells known restriction affect Sanctified and Corrupt spells (assuming that you pick(ed) up the Arcane Preparation feat or the like in order to gain the ability to cast them)?
    If you find a way to learn them, I’d say they count as being not of your preferred element but also not of your banned element. You’ve still gotta follow the “1/2 at all times” rule.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    If you find a way to learn them, I’d say they count as being not of your preferred element but also not of your banned element. You’ve still gotta follow the “1/2 at all times” rule.
    And that "1/2 at all times rule" still applies to level 4+ spells that you learn through feats and such (Cerebrosis, Necrotic Cyst, etc.), right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Is this a good OJEBUWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES, or a bad OJFBUEWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    "Oh no, I'm bleeding out of my eyes...it's only now that I see that the delivery fee isn't a substitute for tipping your pizza guy!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Arguss View Post
    "No" means "yes".

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    And that "1/2 at all times rule" still applies to level 4+ spells that you learn through feats and such (Cerebrosis, Necrotic Cyst, etc.), right?
    Yes, I’d say so. Shugenja spell knowledge is really obnoxiously limited.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    I can't find anything to do with this sort of (redacted) and the inspiration to do that is not there in the slightest. I hope I'll be motivated to even judge this one
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Started reading the Shugenja, had to stop and immediately start researching as soon as I reread the first class feature. I have no idea if it's even possible to abuse that, but god willing I'm gonna try.


    Currently Recruiting: Nothing currently. Maybe come start one?

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Started reading the Shugenja, had to stop and immediately start researching as soon as I reread the first class feature. I have no idea if it's even possible to abuse that, but god willing I'm gonna try.
    I cannot wait to see what attempts you and your peers make to optimize Sense Elements.

    You know, also known as "the feature so bad that even the example admits that it's useless."
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    In regards to the elemental focus requiring half of all spells known to be of the element, are we sure that it works how we've said?
    In the text, the first time it comes up is in the sentence "Half of the spells a shugenja knows must be of his chosen element, as indicated on Table 1–4." So would we not just follow the table for determining how many spells we need?
    The example given with Kitsu-Mari does mention three water spells, but because Kitsu-Mari has a water order it's difficult to parse why that third spell has to be water.
    It's not the strongest argument, but saying that for example at level 1 you would need 3 spells of your element would also be the only example I know of in WotC rounding up for halves instead of down.

    Not relating to the rules, but fire shugenjas get the roughest deal. They only have one order instead of two like the others, and their order is all just spells they already have. What gives?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round VIII)

    If a shugenja spell shows an element of All, does that could for or against your element for your spells known qualifications?

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