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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Polymorph is cool, and I'm not gonna beat about the bush, it is a commonly known target for abuse. Plus, even for that, it's complicated. Let's see if we can't both simplify it and bring it into a consistent set of behaviors.




    Removed content
    Natural Spell (Use other feats, described further on)
    Alter Self (use Disguise Self for almost identical effects in the disguising respect)
    Polymorph Any Object (no)
    Shapechange (no)




    Polymorph Subschool
    Some Transmutation spells are marked with the [polymorph] tag, meaning that the caster, hereafter called "you" or the "original form", of such a spell takes on the physical form of another creature, hereafter called the "assumed form". While under the effects of a spell with the [polymorph] subschool:
    -- Your original form's hit points go into suspension.
    -- You gain the health pool of an average specimen of the assumed form.
    -- Depleting the health pool of the assumed form (to 0 HP) ends the effect.
    -- When the effect ends, you resume your original form at the hit point total you had when you cast the spell.
    -- Your statistics and abilities are equivalent to the assumed form's block with the mental ability scores, skills, feats, and class abilities of your original form overwriting those of the assumed form.

    What you keep from your Original Form What you lose from the Assumed Form
    Mental Ability Scores Spell-like Abilities
    Class Features Special Abilities and Attacks
    Slot-Compatible Equipment Equipment in the assumed form's description
    Skills and Feats Racial Spellcasting

    -- You lose the ability to cast spells with [V]erbal, [S]omatic, [M]aterial, and [F]ocus components.
    -- Recalculate your Will Saving Throw as if the assumed form had your Wisdom score.
    -- If the assumed form would change your statistics such that you no longer qualify for feats, you lose access to those feats until the effect ends.
    -- If the assumed form has any racial bonuses to skills, those apply to your skills.
    -- You may not be under the effect of another [polymorph] effect.
    Spoiler: But what about my spellcasting?
    Show
    If you use Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials, you can cast spells that normally require [V]erbal, [S]omatic, and inexpensive [M]aterial components respectively. Therefore, with those feats, the only spells you cannot cast while polymorphed (that means you too Wild Shapers) are those with expensive material components or foci (other than Divine Foci, which are exempt form the components that are restricted by the subschool). Also, look after the spells ;D





    Spell Additions and Revisions

    Polymorph, Lesser
    Transmutation [Polymorph]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S, M (an empty cocoon)
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: Willing creature touched
    Duration: 1 round/level (D)
    Saving Throw: None (Harmless)
    Spell Resistance: No (Harmless)

    The target becomes another creature, following the guidelines of the [Polymorph] subschool. The assumed form cannot have a higher HD or CR than your caster level.

    Polymorph
    Transmutation [Polymorph]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 5
    Duration: 5 rounds/level (D)

    As Polymorph, Lesser, except as noted above, and the target also gains the [Ex]traordinary Special Qualities and [Ex]traordinary Special Attacks of the Assumed Form.

    Polymorph, Baleful
    Transmutation [Curse][Polymorph]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 5
    Target: Creature touched
    Duration: 1 day or Permanent (see text) (D)
    Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial (see text)
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    As Polymorph, Lesser, except as noted above, and the target must make 3 saving throws. 1st, they must make a Fortitude saving throw or succumb to the form you choose. 2nd, they must make a Will saving throw or lose themselves to the transformation, losing all properties of the original form, and taking on the mental ability scores of the assumed form. Lastly, after one day has passed, they make another fortitude save or be transformed permanently, losing themselves as well. Losing all Hit Points while under the effects of Baleful Polymorph still ends the effect, but it also lowers the original form's HP to -1, and giving them the Unconscious and Stable effects. Whenever the spell may end, all former statistics and abilities of the original form are restored.

    Polymorph, Greater
    Transmutation [Polymorph]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 7
    Duration: 1 min./level (D)

    As Polymorph, except as noted above, and the target also gains the [Su]pernatural Special Qualities and [Su]pernatural Special Attacks of the Assumed Form.

    Polymorph, True
    Transmutation [Polymorph]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 9
    Duration: 10 mins./level (D)

    As Polymorph, Greater, except as noted above, and the target also gains the [Sp]ell-like abilities of the Assumed Form.




    Recommendation: Alter Wild Shape such that it and its improvements instead mimic Lesser Polymorph, and improve as levels progress, allowing Animals, then Elementals at higher levels.

    Also here, have a feat on the house:

    Shifter's Spellcasting
    Prerequisites: Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Transmutation) or a wizard specialized in Transmutation, ability to cast a spell of the [polymorph] subschool
    Benefit: While under the effects of an effect with the [polymorph] subschool, you may cast any spells with [V]erbal and/or [S]omatic components so long as you use a spell slot 2 levels higher than the original spell. If you are a spontaneous caster, this does not require extra spellcasting time as normal metamagic does. If you are a prepared caster, you must expend a prepared spell 2 levels higher than the spell you wish to cast, with that spell being consumed in place of the base spell.
    Normal: Casting spells with [v]erbal or [s]omatic components is impossible without the use of metamagic to negate these components if under the effect of the [polymorph] subschool.
    Special: A Wizard may select this feat as one of their wizard bonus feats.




    So, what do you think? Did I leave any major holes? Is it understandable? Please let me know your thoughts <3
    Last edited by ShiningStarling; 2018-04-11 at 05:02 PM.
    If you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around, do you ever really crash or even make a sound?
    I have felt the pain of losing who you are, and I have died so many times, but I am still alive
    I believe that the darkness reminds us what light can be


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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    I like it for the most part - similar concepts to my recent take but much more succinct!

    Your version works great when the players and DM communicate with each other ahead of time on what is and isn't reasonable. However, part of why I generated such lengthy rulings myself is that there's always going to be a creature running around in a sourcebook somewhere with the potential to break the spell. It's dangerous to give an open-ended "gain all the exceptional special attacks and qualities", hence Pathfinder giving a list of acceptable abilities.

    Gaining the supernatural special attacks and qualities is unfortunately pretty broken right off, however. The quickness of a choker would be one of the first things to leap to mind.
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-04-10 at 09:37 AM.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I like it for the most part - similar concepts to my recent take but much more succinct!
    Sorry to have missed yours, I may not have posted this so soon had I known xD, but thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Your version works great when the players and DM communicate with each other ahead of time on what is and isn't reasonable. However, part of why I generated such lengthy rulings myself is that there's always going to be a creature running around in a sourcebook somewhere with the potential to break the spell. It's dangerous to give an open-ended "gain all the exceptional special attacks and qualities", hence Pathfinder giving a list of acceptable abilities.
    In my eyes, players should not be doing anything behind the GM's back. Being broken can be just fine as long as the GM knows about it. If I didn't trust my players, I would make them use Pathfinder Polymorphs, but then again I probably wouldn't be playing with people I don't trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Gaining the supernatural special attacks and qualities is unfortunately pretty broken right off, however. The quickness of a choker would be one of the first things to leap to mind.
    Oh yeah, it's dangerous, I mean just look at Pun Pun
    I would note, however, that many of the more unique abilities are on weaker monsters, and gaining the [Su]s is the function of the 7th Circle version. Sure, at 20th you can become a Balor and gain all their cool stuff (including their whip and sword strangely, since they're abilities and not equipment) but you still can't cast spells without gimping yourself by 2 circles! and if you want to use a 7th circle spell to become a Choker with Quickness (which will last you 16 HP) or a Medusa with Petrifying Gaze (33 HP, 45 for a Basilisk) then I think that's fine, they can knock you out of the form with one melee hit, or one spell. Plus, the Quickness isn't going to do much for you when your spells are gimped by 2 circles, sure you might be able to nova for a round, but that's a lot worse than say Time Stop or Celerity even. Other than that, I think limiting both the HD and the CR will stop most other notable abuse (unless you're min-maxing caster level, then all bets are off)



    EDIT: Also, forgot to mention, I did take a lot of cues from 5th edition here. I may not like the system very much, but when my group changed the campaign to Pathfinder from 5e, the GM said I could keep 5e's Polymorph, and I had a grand old time I just wanted to see if I could keep the same basic idea without being utterly broken.
    Last edited by ShiningStarling; 2018-04-10 at 04:10 PM.
    If you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around, do you ever really crash or even make a sound?
    I have felt the pain of losing who you are, and I have died so many times, but I am still alive
    I believe that the darkness reminds us what light can be


    My Extended Homebrew Signature

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    In my eyes, players should not be doing anything behind the GM's back. Being broken can be just fine as long as the GM knows about it. If I didn't trust my players, I would make them use Pathfinder Polymorphs, but then again I probably wouldn't be playing with people I don't trust.
    This is a very healthy gaming philosophy, and one that I share. However the consensus on this board is generally to have explicit rulings to counter potential player abuse (as I've learned from my own submissions), so be prepared for more comments along those lines :D

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Shifter's Spellcasting
    Prerequisites: Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Transmutation) or a wizard specialized in Transmutation, ability to cast a spell of the [polymorph] subschool
    Benefit: While under the effects of an effect with the [polymorph] subschool, you may cast any spells with [V]erbal and/or [S]omatic components so long as you use a spell slot 2 levels higher than the original spell. If you are a spontaneous caster, this does not require extra spellcasting time as normal metamagic does. If you are a prepared caster, you must expend a prepared spell 2 levels higher than the spell you wish to cast, with that spell being consumed in place of the base spell.
    Normal: Casting spells with [v]erbal or [s]omatic components is impossible without the use of metamagic to negate these components if under the effect of the [polymorph] subschool.
    I don't get it. 1) Why the Eschew Materials and Spell Focus feat taxes? I can understand that you need the feat that it's replicating, but those?
    2) If I'm reading it right, this is a spontaneous-metamagic that replicates Still/Silent Spell without needed preparations.
    3) Any sort of mage that's using polymorph on themselves is likely a gish, and casts their buff spells onto them before polymorph... which limits the usefulness of this feat
    4) I get that this is supposed to replace natural spell, except it doesn't because Wild Shape is (Su), meaning that it doesn't have a school, nor is it a spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    This is a very healthy gaming philosophy, and one that I share. However the consensus on this board is generally to have explicit rulings to counter potential player abuse (as I've learned from my own submissions), so be prepared for more comments along those lines :D
    Contention: Snowbluff's Axiom
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    I'm going to say this now. All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-04-10 at 05:55 PM.
    Spoiler
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    Going to see how well I am at making homebrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

    "I hope that you don't get the impression that I would munchkin the rules if I was in a D&D world IRL... Even though I totally would" -Myself

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I like it for the most part - similar concepts to my recent take but much more succinct!

    Your version works great when the players and DM communicate with each other ahead of time on what is and isn't reasonable. However, part of why I generated such lengthy rulings myself is that there's always going to be a creature running around in a sourcebook somewhere with the potential to break the spell. It's dangerous to give an open-ended "gain all the exceptional special attacks and qualities", hence Pathfinder giving a list of acceptable abilities.

    Gaining the supernatural special attacks and qualities is unfortunately pretty broken right off, however. The quickness of a choker would be one of the first things to leap to mind.
    Choker doesn't have spells/psionics or SLAs/PLAs or any other (Su) ability other than Quickness, so there's no reason why Quickness should apply to such abilities.

    Regardless, True Polymorph is crazy. A level-20 mage could turn into a Pit Fiend, with 2 9th-level SLAs (one of which is at-will).

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    This is a very healthy gaming philosophy, and one that I share. However the consensus on this board is generally to have explicit rulings to counter potential player abuse (as I've learned from my own submissions), so be prepared for more comments along those lines :D
    Fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    I don't get it. 1) Why the Eschew Materials and Spell Focus feat taxes? I can understand that you need the feat that it's replicating, but those?
    Because why should casters be exempt from feat taxes? (Also lots of PrCs require the spell focus anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    2) If I'm reading it right, this is a spontaneous-metamagic that replicates Still/Silent Spell without needed preparations.
    I'm not sure I understand your phrasing

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    3) Any sort of mage that's using polymorph on themselves is likely a gish, and casts their buff spells onto them before polymorph... which limits the usefulness of this feat
    Probably, note how it's tacked on the end

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    4) I get that this is supposed to replace natural spell, except it doesn't because Wild Shape is (Su), meaning that it doesn't have a school, nor is it a spell.
    Woopsie, I was totally thinking about other editions where it replicates spells instead of Alternate Form, lemmie fix that real quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Contention: Snowbluff's Axiom
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I don't see how my feelings or rferries's contradict this at all

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Choker doesn't have spells/psionics or SLAs/PLAs or any other (Su) ability other than Quickness, so there's no reason why Quickness should apply to such abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD: Choker
    Quickness (Su)
    Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.
    I see no language to suggest it would not do exactly that.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Regardless, True Polymorph is crazy. A level-20 mage could turn into a Pit Fiend, with 2 9th-level SLAs (one of which is at-will).
    Greater Planar Binding, a spell one level lower, that has no CR cap, can summon exactly that 18HD Pit Fiend and make it do everything you say, putting those crazy abilities off the burden of your own action economy. I certainly find the balance better that you have to use your own actions for those abilities (and using a spell 1 level higher for the privilege)
    Last edited by ShiningStarling; 2018-04-11 at 03:36 AM.
    If you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around, do you ever really crash or even make a sound?
    I have felt the pain of losing who you are, and I have died so many times, but I am still alive
    I believe that the darkness reminds us what light can be


    My Extended Homebrew Signature

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    I see no language to suggest it would not do exactly that.
    No need for such articulation, since the Choker doesn't come with any relevant abilities to comment about.
    I'm unawware of a 3.Xe monster that has Quickness and relevant abilities to talk about.



    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    Greater Planar Binding, a spell one level lower, that has no CR cap, can summon exactly that 18HD Pit Fiend and make it do everything you say, putting those crazy abilities off the burden of your own action economy. I certainly find the balance better that you have to use your own actions for those abilities (and using a spell 1 level higher for the privilege)
    "The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw"
    "The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + your caster level + your Cha modifier)"
    "It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you."

    And here's the more interesting part:
    "The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom."
    Analysis: The more powerful a summoned creature is, the more devious it should also be, making it a potential booby-trap.


    That said, you shouldn't supplement broken spells with additional broken spells.
    If you find Planar Binding to be broken - fix it.

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    Because why should casters be exempt from feat taxes? (Also lots of PrCs require the spell focus anyway)
    Problem: Mundanes have feat taxes.
    Solution: Give casters feat taxes.
    Me: Why don't you just not give mundanes feat taxes then? Also the feat itself is really weak (why would I sacrifice a 2nd level slot to sling an Acid Splash?).

    "A PrC also needs this" is a poor excuse for justifying a feat tax. Sure, people going into such a PrC will have more synergy than they otherwise would, but it kinda goes to shaft everybody else.

    Probably, note how it's tacked on the end
    ??? I guess the better question is: In what situation would a caster *want* this feat? What does this feat provide that casting your buff spells before polymorphing does not already do?

    I don't see how my feelings or rferries's contradict this at all
    rferries: "It's up to the boards to fix potential player abuse and over-optimization before it can happen" (thus putting every class on the same relative playing field).
    Me: "But what about people who like having a higher power level than normal? Are they just supposed to suck it up and deal with it? Suppose you have 4 players: A power-gamer, a roleplayer, and two noobs. Do you really expect all of them to be on the same power level? If you have two groups -- one that's really low-powered and one that's really high-powered, how do you expect them both to adhere to the same ruleset?"
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-04-11 at 12:32 PM.
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    Going to see how well I am at making homebrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

    "I hope that you don't get the impression that I would munchkin the rules if I was in a D&D world IRL... Even though I totally would" -Myself

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    No need for such articulation, since the Choker doesn't come with any relevant abilities to comment about.
    I'm unawware of a 3.Xe monster that has Quickness and relevant abilities to talk about.
    It literally gives them an extra standard or move action. A lack of a rule about spells does not mean they can't use it for spells. There are in fact no caveats on its use. In addition, most of the monsters in the manual that have class levels? Their advancement category usually doesn't say "by class level", so we therefore have evidence that even if no rules are given to govern the acquiring of class levels, it can still happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    "The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw"
    "The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + your caster level + your Cha modifier)"
    "It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you."

    And here's the more interesting part:
    "The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom."
    Analysis: The more powerful a summoned creature is, the more devious it should also be, making it a potential booby-trap.
    Correct. Because its still better than true polymorph. It takes the pressure off your action economy. A caster worth their salt won't let those things fail (or will be a cleric and use the 'ally' version).

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    That said, you shouldn't supplement broken spells with additional broken spells.
    If you find Planar Binding to be broken - fix it.
    I do. I ban it :P
    see below

    [QUOTE=Goaty14;22986831]Problem: Mundanes have feat taxes.
    Solution: Give casters feat taxes.
    Me: Why don't you just not give mundanes feat taxes then? Also the feat itself is really weak (why would I sacrifice a 2nd level slot to sling an Acid Splash?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    "A PrC also needs this" is a poor excuse for justifying a feat tax. Sure, people going into such a PrC will have more synergy than they otherwise would, but it kinda goes to shaft everybody else.
    If I took all my houserulings and homebrewing into account, it would in fact eliminate feat taxes for everyone, and instead focus on what they actually want to do. This is not Giants and Graveyards (Grod the Giant's collection of quite well done fixes for 3.5), this is a concept for a spell line that can fit reasonably well within 3.5's existing power structure.

    I'm making a car, not the road.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    ??? I guess the better question is: In what situation would a caster *want* this feat? What does this feat provide that casting your buff spells before polymorphing does not already do?
    Quick! A Super-Troll just showed up, and you already polymorphed into a Silver Dragon so your party can't stop its regen! You could spend your standard action to dismiss the polymorph, but then you're a scrawny, tasty caster, or you can whip out a fireball, and with this feat then a sorcerer can still move afterwards, and a wizard wouldn't have to have prepared a Stilled Silent Fireball.

    Its situational, but provides something no other feat can.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    rferries: "It's up to the boards to fix potential player abuse and over-optimization before it can happen" (thus putting every class on the same relative playing field).
    Me: "But what about people who like having a higher power level than normal? Are they just supposed to suck it up and deal with it? Suppose you have 4 players: A power-gamer, a roleplayer, and two noobs. Do you really expect all of them to be on the same power level? If you have two groups -- one that's really low-powered and one that's really high-powered, how do you expect them both to adhere to the same ruleset?"
    That's not so much a forum question as a table question. Are you, the GM, going to let one player hog the spotlight, or let them only interact with the game when dice are rolled? High-power systems are not the problem. The problem that games solve is the problem of having fun. If your group can have fun with the rules presented to them, then good! If the rules need tweaking, excellent! We can do that too.

    If you would like a full explanation of my game-design philosophy, I can do that, though I would probably make that a separate thread. As I mentioned above, I'm making a car, not a road here. The purpose here is not "is the game broken", it's, "is this more or less in line with existing 3.5 power, and would it be fun?"

    PS: Yeah the game is broken, that's one of the many reasons it's fun.
    If you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around, do you ever really crash or even make a sound?
    I have felt the pain of losing who you are, and I have died so many times, but I am still alive
    I believe that the darkness reminds us what light can be


    My Extended Homebrew Signature

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    Quick! A Super-Troll just showed up, and you already polymorphed into a Silver Dragon so your party can't stop its regen! You could spend your standard action to dismiss the polymorph, but then you're a scrawny, tasty caster, or you can whip out a fireball, and with this feat then a sorcerer can still move afterwards, and a wizard wouldn't have to have prepared a Stilled Silent Fireball.
    "Oh no! I'm polymorphed into a silver dragon! What ever could I possibly d- Oh, I could just beat it to a pulp!" Seriously though, even in that situation, you just beat up the super-troll until it's unconscious, and then set the body on fire or drown it in acid or something.

    Its situational, but provides something no other feat can.
    Sure, but I'd make the case that it's more situational than Whirlwind Attack. Also, don't most feats already provide something no other feat can?
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    Going to see how well I am at making homebrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

    "I hope that you don't get the impression that I would munchkin the rules if I was in a D&D world IRL... Even though I totally would" -Myself

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    "Oh no! I'm polymorphed into a silver dragon! What ever could I possibly d- Oh, I could just beat it to a pulp!" Seriously though, even in that situation, you just beat up the super-troll until it's unconscious, and then set the body on fire or drown it in acid or something.

    Sure, but I'd make the case that it's more situational than Whirlwind Attack. Also, don't most feats already provide something no other feat can?
    I don't quite understand your objection to the feat - do you object to Natural Spell? Obliviomancer's feat serves the same purpose, but is much less broken. Compare:

    With Natural Spell, a druid gets all the benefits of the assumed form (often equal to or better than a noncaster) AND gets to retain their spellcasting. Natural spell is widely considered a feat tax for druids because EVERY druid takes it.

    With Shifter's Spellcasting, a caster can approximate the same power as above but must invest feats (and a metamagic adjustment) to do so. Much more balanced, and not every caster will take it because not all of them will use [Polymorph] spells (or at least not all of them will tailor their builds around [Polymorph] spells).

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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I don't quite understand your objection to the feat - do you object to Natural Spell? Obliviomancer's feat serves the same purpose, but is much less broken. Compare:

    With Natural Spell, a druid gets all the benefits of the assumed form (often equal to or better than a noncaster) AND gets to retain their spellcasting. Natural spell is widely considered a feat tax for druids because EVERY druid takes it.

    With Shifter's Spellcasting, a caster can approximate the same power as above but must invest feats (and a metamagic adjustment) to do so. Much more balanced, and not every caster will take it because not all of them will use [Polymorph] spells (or at least not all of them will tailor their builds around [Polymorph] spells).
    Call me a heretic, but IMO, natural spell is pretty ok -- I wouldn't place it on the same level of a feat tax of power attack (due to the benefits gained), but it's not bad enough to constitute *this* bad of a replacement. I mean, at best, the druid gets to dump their STR/DEX at level 6 and get permanent flight (there's a whole different bucket of cheese with aberrant wild shape, but then I'd be shifting the goalposts) or be a permanent gish or something. I mean, the feat (shifter's spellcasting) requires so many hurdles to jump I'd be happier if natural spell was just banned. Because it's relevant,
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Call it Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use. When you do:
    • The disruptive munchkin ignores it, argues it, or forces the rest of the group to suffer through it. His power remains the same, and he gets more annoying to play with.
    • The inappropriate powergamer figures out how to circumvent the restriction. His power remains the same.
    • The reasonable player either figures out how to circumvent the restriction (rendering it moot), avoids the class (turning it into a ban) or suffers through it. His power remains the same and/or his enjoyment goes down.
    • The new player avoids the class or suffers through it. His enjoyment goes down.

    Notice how the problem players feel the least impact?
    My question still remains: Name me a caster that would look forward to using this feat the way it was intended to be used (metamagic/feat taxes as they are). Also relevant comment: Consider banning Surrogate Spellcasting (SS) for creatures with the [polymorph] template (or subschool, if you don't implement the following). For tacking the feat to druids, you might consider using some variant of the Giant's polymorph template, give the polymorph template whenever under the effect of the polymorph subschool, and give druids the polymorph template whenever they wildshape.
    Last edited by Goaty14; 2018-04-11 at 07:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Call me a heretic, but IMO, natural spell is pretty ok -- I wouldn't place it on the same level of a feat tax of power attack (due to the benefits gained), but it's not bad enough to constitute *this* bad of a replacement. I mean, at best, the druid gets to dump their STR/DEX at level 6 and get permanent flight (there's a whole different bucket of cheese with aberrant wild shape, but then I'd be shifting the goalposts) or be a permanent gish or something. I mean, the feat (shifter's spellcasting) requires so many hurdles to jump I'd be happier if natural spell was just banned.
    ... dumping strength and dex is a powerful thing, an option that no other class really gets (dex anyways, strength if you use encumbrance I guess, but martials can't dump either of them). In Point Buy, that means you can get an 18 Wis no problem.

    I'm not sure why you would compare Natural Spell and Power Attack, I can't tell which you prefer by the phrasing you used, but its like comparing a cruise missile to a sledgehammer.

    Also, I like Grod's Law. And I followed it. This is a straightforward revision. I made Polymorph less of a pain to use, and the locked the high power in high spell slots. The feat, also does not make things more painful to use. It requires exactly 1 feat that isn't already needed to cast spells while polymorphed (the spell focus), and by taking it, you no longer have to do any special bookkeeping to make sure you're casting spells right while polymorphed! The Wizard and Druid no longer must say, "Well shoot, I really wanted to cast Web, but I didn't prepare it stilled and silent today, only normally". Preparation is already a hassle, this alleviates that. I really do not understand your argument against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    My question still remains: Name me a caster that would look forward to using this feat the way it was intended to be used (metamagic/feat taxes as they are).
    Any Sorcerer that wants to be Polymorphed and still be able to move (since metamagic takes a full round action for them to cast a standard action spell). Again, I really don't see why you're so against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaty14 View Post
    Also relevant comment: Consider banning Surrogate Spellcasting (SS) for creatures with the [polymorph] template (or subschool, if you don't implement the following).
    Most PCs can't take this, seeing as they are humanoid and thus do not meet the prerequisites (you can't use a temporary effect to meet prerequisites while leveling).
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    Default Re: Polymorph Revision - Straightforward [Please let me know of holes, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    ... dumping strength and dex is a powerful thing, an option that no other class really gets (dex anyways, strength if you use encumbrance I guess, but martials can't dump either of them). In Point Buy, that means you can get an 18 Wis no problem.
    If this is the case, then I'd argue that the traditional barbarian gets to dump INT/WIS/CHA and is thus better than the druid in terms of point buy. Same goes for just about any martial that isn't some sort of gish-in-a-can or weaboo maritals (except for the monk, which just flat-out sucks). Also, druids have to suck up a -1 to hit/damage (or -2 if you *really* min/max your point buy) until level 6.

    Also, I like Grod's Law. The feat, also does not make things more painful to use. It requires exactly 1 feat that isn't already needed to cast spells while polymorphed (the spell focus),
    Let me make my point right here: No caster worth their salt is going to be doing that already. Never have I seen in my life somebody suggest that you try to druid-fy a wizard. I mean -- ok, the highly hypothetical, one-in-one-hundred-billion caster that is trying to make a build to cast spells while polymorphed, this is a really good feat as what it is trying to do, it does pretty good, kinda like whirlwind attack. Unfortunately, just like whirlwind attack, it has a really high feat tax for everybody else who isn't using it on a daily basis and is thus garbage.

    TL;DR The feat is great for people that are trying to do that (casting spells while polymorphed). However, if you aren't trying to cast spells while polymorphed (read: literally everybody), this feat sucks.

    Any Sorcerer that wants to be Polymorphed and still be able to move (since metamagic takes a full round action for them to cast a standard action spell). Again, I really don't see why you're so against it.
    In other words -- very few sorcerers?

    Most PCs can't take this, seeing as they are humanoid and thus do not meet the prerequisites (you can't use a temporary effect to meet prerequisites while leveling).
    Source? IIRC, you don't have a feat's benefit when you don't qualify, but I don't think I saw anything saying you can't take stuff that you only qualify for with a temporary effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
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