Space Marine!?

[Kizara]

Ok, I was hoping to pick the board's brains for a moment.

I am looking for a decent Space Marine build, ala Warhammer 40k.

The general concept:

A seasoned, veteren soldier skilled who uses a large blast-rifle as a main weapon, with a greatsword as a backup. He fights for reasons of patriotic devotion to a Theocratical government. I would also like him to be a good leader, someone able to rally the men.

Allowed Material + House rules:

DnD 3.5ed, no psionics, no ToB, no Cscoundrel or Cchampion.
Divine Metamagic is banned.

Some things we have developed to incorporate a sci-fi feel to a standard DnD setting:

1) Blaster pistols/rifles do 4d6 points of fire damage (super-heated plasma)
2) Military issue heavy blaster rifles do 4d8 points of fire damage and are exotic weapons.

3) Regular swords, hammer's, etc can be made with "Vibro-enhancements" which allow them to 'charge' with super-heated plasma to deal an additional 2d6 points of fire damage. This is a non-magical bonus, and can stack with the flamming enchantment.

4) Armor is made out of a special high-tech material that resists the super-heated plasma that blaster weapons fire, and thus is still useful to wear.

If you have any cool rules to suggest to add to this, feel free.

Character Generation:

96 points, distributed as you like on a 1-1 basis. One 18= 18 points, etc.

Race: human preferred, but I'll listen to other options.
Gestalt Variant
Count on him having about 2x normal WBL.
Plan on the campaign going to mid to high levels from lvl 1.


Right now I'm thinking:

Cleric x//pal 3/ftr 2/some kind of ranged damage PrC

16 14 16 14 18 18

Personally, I'd like to find a way to drop cleric and dumb wisdom so I can boost some of my physical stats.

[Hazkali]

Hmm, with Cleric and Paladin levels, I'd search for a feat or PrC that allows you to use your Wisdom modifier on attack rolls. I know that there's one in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which allows you to do so with Simple weapons, although if you're using the BoED by the RAW, you'll need to tone down some of the real life moral greyness that comes with the 40K universe.

[Tengu]

Here's your good leader. Maybe not as a primary class, but useful as a dip. Or for one side of your gestalt.

[sikyon]

Personally, I'm a big fan of fluff. So perosnally, I feel that you just can't get a good repersentation without homebrewing it. For example, those blaster rifles arn't really like bolters, and neither is the armor.


Personally, I'm going to say that a space marine's natural abilities arn't THAT impressive, and most power is gained through equipment. And I don't have the space marine book on me to find match level advancements with implantations.

I'd do something like this:

Space Marine (starting age 10)

Full BAB

Hit dice: D12
Saves: Strong Will & Fort, Medium Reflex

Special: Only Human Male

Enhancements: Gain +1 to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution at level 2 and every other level thereafter

Level 3: And they shall know no fear: Space Marines are immune to any fear effects.

Level 4: Bonus Feat: Endurance

Level 5: Glands: Space marines are immune to all non-magical diseases, and can eat any organic substance. They also spit acid, dealing 3 damage/hour to iron/cold iron, 2 damage/hour to mithral and 1 damage/hour to admantium (chewing through bars).

Level 6: Bonus Feat: Toughness

Level 7: Sleepness: Space marines only need to sleep 6 hours/week (in any intervals).

Level 9: Black Carapace: Space marines gain the ability to wear Powered Armour. Bonus Feat: Diehard

Level 15: Grizzled: Space marines gain +10 Hit Points

Level 18: Vetern: Space marines gain 1 additional attack at their lowest BAB

Level 20: Legendary: Space marine always wins initiative. If an opponent would always win initiative as well, then roll normally.

Equipment:

Level 3: Bolter: May do 4D4 damage at less than 30 feet, 2D4 damage at more than 30 feet. Max range 60 feet. Increase the damage die to D6 at level 5, D8 at level 9. Increase both ranges by 10 feet at Level 5 and 9.

Level 3: Carapace armor: +3 to AC, max dex bonus is +3

Level 9: Powered Armor: +6 to AC, no max dex bonus (powered).

Level 11: Frag Gernades: Once per day, the Space Marine may use Frag Gernades when he charges. He no longer Provokes AOO's for that charge chrages (from anyone that would normally get an AOO, not just the creature he is charging)

Level 13: Krak Gernades: Once per Day, the space marine may use Krak Gerndades. In a grapple with an opponent at least one size category larger than him, he may disengage from the grapple and the creature losses 1/4 of it's current hit points.

Level 15: Terminator Armor: Gives +18 AC, no max dex bonus. +10 energy resistance (all types).

Level 15: Storm Bolter: Deals 6D10 Damage with range of 100 feet

Level 15: Power Weapon: +5 enhancement to any 1 weapon.

Level 18: Thunder Hammer and Strom Sheild: The Terminator may trade Storm Bolter and Power weapon for a thunder hammer and Storm Sheild. Storm Sheild: +10 to AC. Thunder Hammer: Doubles the Space Marine's strength bonus. 4D12 damage. If an opponent is struck but not killed by the Thunder Hammer, he may only take a move or standard action on his next turn.



I figure it's pretty unbalanced, but I just kinda stuck it in with fluff. This was more for my own entertainment.

[Renegade Paladin]

A Space Marine's abilities aren't all from equipment; as I recall, they should have a Strength score somewhere in the 30s without the power armor. I'm sorry, but an accurate representation isn't going to work. I've tried with BESM d20 and gotten close, but it isn't going to happen in D&D without extensive homebrew.

[heretic]

Or you could use this.

[Hazkali]

A Space Marine's abilities aren't all from equipment; as I recall, they should have a Strength score somewhere in the 30s without the power armor. I'm sorry, but an accurate representation isn't going to work. I've tried with BESM d20 and gotten close, but it isn't going to happen in D&D without extensive homebrew.

I think the key point here is that the flavour of the Space Marine should be kept, whilst obviously toning it down to fit in with the game itself. Which, ironically, is what GW have done with the Space Marines in 40K. So whilst what Kizara has said is that he wants to play a Space Marine, what we must actually give him is the means to play a tough, strong armoured warrior, with a handful of exotic abilities centred around biological manipulation and their own ferverent, fanatical belief in their own cause and righteousness.

One main problem with this is the different alignment/morality systems operating in the two worlds. In D+D, moral codes are more-or-less our own modern ethical codes, backed up by the existence of absolute good and evil, and the prescription of lethal force to counteract evil. In the Warhammer 40,00 universe, there is no such absolute morality, and the moral code of the Imperium differs greatly from our own modern morals. So much, in fact, someone I know refuses to play 40K because of the very fascistic moral system of the supposed "good" sides. So either Kizara's character will have to adapt to the moral Zeitgeist of the D+D world in which he finds himself, or else Kizara's DM will have to adapt the moral Zeitgeist of the world, lest there be grave conflict between what player and DM see as acceptable for a good character to do.

[heretic]

From the link I posted above, Space Marines get +4 to all stats and then a further bonus to strength depending on what type of armor they have. I know that Termie armor gives +6 strength.

Individual chapters also have little bonuses that they give.

[Quietus]

Since this is Gestalt, I'd probably build this as either a Fighter//Bard, or Barbarian//Bard, depending. D10 or D12 HP, all good saves, full base attack, 6+int skills (and an awesome list), with combat abilities coming either from your raw ability to go balls-to-the-wall or from those years and years of training you've gone through. Bard levels provide bardic perform abilities to rally troops and increase morale, and if you have the charisma to start throwing around a few spells, you can flavor them as "gifts of the emperor". Oh, and it's core.

::Edit:: You can also just pick buff spells like Heroism, which is more troop-rallying. For Perform, I recommend (oratory).

[lord_khaine]

in the warhammer world, there is no good sides, only some that is less evil.

[horseboy]

What chapter? Sounds kind of like Dark Angels. (Las/Plas please! ) Maybe a devastator, or squad heavy weapon guy. What Company2,3,4,reservist in 5,6,7 or 9?

You may want to check Gav's article on space marine gear in inquisitor to help get a base line for your conversions. Mass reactive, exploding shells make big messes.

As far as mechanics, I'd say weapon specialization would be almost a given. As well, maybe as point blank shot and shot on the run.

Implant wise, the implants allow for a marine to be twice as strong as a regular human could ever hope to be (200+ on a 100 scale).
The guy with the d20 version did a pretty good job with converting the implants. (Though apparently it's older than the IA articles, since not all chapters have all implants functioning)

[Tengu]

in the warhammer world, there is no good sides, only some that is less evil.

And Tau, who would be Lawful Neutral, which is the 40k equivalent of the Apostle of Peace prestige class, or something equally Exalted Good.

[Kizara]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone that responded.

This guy said it best:

I think the key point here is that the flavour of the Space Marine should be kept, whilst obviously toning it down to fit in with the game itself. Which, ironically, is what GW have done with the Space Marines in 40K. So whilst what Kizara has said is that he wants to play a Space Marine, what we must actually give him is the means to play a tough, strong armoured warrior, with a handful of exotic abilities centred around biological manipulation and their own ferverent, fanatical belief in their own cause and righteousness.

You hit it spot-on, but then gave no actual aid in doing what you defined.

As for the ethical/alignment issue, I'm not overly concerned with that. We are not trying to make Warhammer 40k into a setting: nethier me or my DM play it, and I've only played the Dark Crusade RTS game based on it.

I can easily see how the character could be LG, believe in the legitimate authority of his LG government, and fight their enemies in the name of faith.
Or he could be a LE paladin of Zarus, same concept.

I'm not looking to use a whole new system, and the 40k homebrew is a good reasource, but its based off of d20 modern/future, which we have no experience with.

As for actual build ideas:

Fighter//bard?? I mean, do you think by combining the two weakest classes you would somehow build a strong character?

Really, as the above guy said, I'm looking for:
" what we must actually give him is the means to play a tough, strong armoured warrior, with a handful of exotic abilities centred around biological manipulation and their own ferverent, fanatical belief in their own cause and righteousness. "

[Quietus]

Fighter//bard?? I mean, do you think by combining the two weakest classes you would somehow build a strong character?

Really, as the above guy said, I'm looking for:
" what we must actually give him is the means to play a tough, strong armoured warrior, with a handful of exotic abilities centred around biological manipulation and their own ferverent, fanatical belief in their own cause and righteousness. "

Tough : D10-D12 HD. All good saves. Check.
Strong armored : Proficiency with at least Medium (Barbarian), or even all armors (Fighter). Check.
Handful of exotic abilities : Reflavored bard magic and plenty of feats. Check.

Another option would be to replace the melee side with Paladin. Switch out the mount for the charging smite option. However, since you're likely to end up doing both the blaster AND the melee stuff, personally, I'd go with Fighter.

The Fighter's biggest weakness is that he can't fly, and that he has a weak will save. Bard levels give him a good will save, and flight outside of equipment doesn't suit space marines anyway. The only thing I'd say would be a problem is the lack of Bull's Strength on the Bard spell list, which you might be able to get houseruled in just because.

The Bard's biggest weakness is that he doesn't do one thing spectacularly well, but does many decently. Combining this with Fighter makes him a good melee combatant, along with his morale-boosting abilities.

Now, the biggest problem, which just occurred to me, is this : If you have enough charisma to do some spellcasting, you're going to run into Spell failure problems in heavy armor. I suppose you could switch Bard to Cleric, which leaves you with a poor Reflex save (not really a HUGE deal), and low skills, but then you bump up the need for Wisdom. However, you get area-affect buffs like Bless and its ilk.

So, ultimately : Yes, I like the bard/fighter idea. I really, REALLY like it. The skill points are beautiful, and with Armored Caster and a mithral (Fluff : "Powered") suit of armor, you can cast with no problem. All good saves, good hit points, full BAB, good skills, all come together beautifully with that. Alternatively, use Barbarian instead of Fighter, removing the need for Mithral anything, and take your first-level feat as Armored Caster. Bing, breastplate armor, no ASF, and when confronted by enemies, you give a rousing speech (spellcasting/inspire courage), before charging into the fray. With Rage, you can even get that much closer to the "realistic" for Space Marines 30 strength - if you can score an 18 strength to start, level 1 when raging you're packing 22. That's pretty damned impressive.

[Solo]

A fighter who casts spells. Isn't that called a Cleric?



You know, a well built Cleric would be able to fight very well and the cleric spells would cover for the Marine's special abilities. (IMHO)

[ThunderEagle]

I don't know about builds, but this is pretty much power armour.

[Kizara]

I don't know about builds, but this is pretty much power armour.

That is a VERY useful link, and can be adapted easily into futuristic power armor.

Thanks man.

[horseboy]

The figher/bard sounds a lot like a Chaplain. They're more melee than blasty. Nice power weapon and your crozus giving you a nice deflection bonus of +3 or 4. All sort of shouting a litany of hate for the unclean, demanding they be purged in the Emperor's fires. Man I really wanna play a paladin now.

Fighter/cleric would be good, especially for an apothecary. Alternately you can take the destruction sphere and get "smite" and be a Grey Knight.

But wait, you want to be squad heavy, with the plasma cannon. I'd recomend instead of fighter, maybe ranger. Depending on the chapter (Notably Space wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars), skills such as sneak, and survival would be considered "class skills" for the chapter.

Edit: What/how do you want your character to work/to do (other than just blowing things up with a big gun) and we could work from there.

[Kizara]

The figher/bard sounds a lot like a Chaplain. They're more melee than blasty. Nice power weapon and your crozus giving you a nice deflection bonus of +3 or 4. All sort of shouting a litany of hate for the unclean, demanding they be purged in the Emperor's fires. Man I really wanna play a paladin now.

Fighter/cleric would be good, especially for an apothecary. Alternately you can take the destruction sphere and get "smite" and be a Grey Knight.

But wait, you want to be squad heavy, with the plasma cannon. I'd recomend instead of fighter, maybe ranger. Depending on the chapter (Notably Space wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars), skills such as sneak, and survival would be considered "class skills" for the chapter.

Edit: What/how do you want your character to work/to do (other than just blowing things up with a big gun) and we could work from there.

For the "Chaplain", wouldn't Paladin fit that bill better? Maybe Pal 3//bard 1/ftr2. But what from there?

Taking more then 1 level of bard for music and skills seems like a waste of time to me.

What is the "sphere of destruction"? I don't remember that from reading my books.

I don't have any desire to be sneaky, indeed the whole concept for the character is something like "Leonidas in space, with guns and power armor".

I want my character to be as combat effective as I can possibly manage, and to do well in a leadership role (which amounts to some kind of AoE buffs and/or divine casting and having a good charisma).

I'm not looking for the image of the space marine with a chain-sword in one hand, and a bolter in another. More like the Assault Terminators with a bigass gun, and a bigger sword as backup.

[horseboy]

What is the "sphere of destruction"? I don't remember that from reading my books.

A bad 2nd edition flash back Destruction Domain. If you go with paladin you'll get it anyway.

I don't have any desire to be sneaky, indeed the whole concept for the character is something like "Leonidas in space, with guns and power armor".

I want my character to be as combat effective as I can possibly manage, and to do well in a leadership role (which amounts to some kind of AoE buffs and/or divine casting and having a good charisma).

I'm not looking for the image of the space marine with a chain-sword in one hand, and a bolter in another. More like the Assault Terminators with a bigass gun, and a bigger sword as backup.

Sounds kind of like a Black Templar. Emperor's Champion, They have artificer armour (it's a master crafted set of power armour that's even more effective) as well as an iron halo (giving you the +4 deflection bonus) The black sword (a bastard sized power weapon) and a master crafted bolt pistol. They don't actually lead lead (so you wouldn't have to take leadership feat), but they are revered as the epitome of "Marineosity". They're very paladinish, so I'd look at the paladin PRC's for what next mechanically.

[Kizara]

Genetically Augmented Template:

+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Cha
Add 1' to base height.
Gain Alertness, Iron Will, Endurance, Improved Toughness and Exotic Armor Proficiency (Power Armor) as bonus feats.
Gain +1 to all saves, and +4 additional versus posion.
Reduce time needed to sleep by 3/4 (so 6 hours if normally 8 hours).

Level Adjustment: +2

(seem reasonable? too much?)

Space Marine PRC:

Prereqs:
BAB: +6
Race: Genetically Augmented Human
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (any blaster or sword), Weapon Specialization (any blaster or sword), Armor Specialization (Power Armor).
Skills: Surivial (space) 8 ranks, Knowledge (tactics) 5 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 2 ranks.

Special: Must be immune to fear.
Must have served with distinction in the Imperial Marine Corps, and be accepted into the elite order of the Imperial Space Marines.
This class must be taken with both sides of a Gestalt.

BAB: Full
Good Saves: Fort, Will
HD: d12

Level 1: Enhancement +2, Divine Smite 1/day
Level 2: Sleeplessness, Divine Blessing
Level 3: Divine Power, Divine Might
Level 4: Enhancement +4, Armor Superiority
Level 5: Melee and Ranged Weapon Mastery, Divine Smite 2/day
Level 6: Divine Ordanance, Righteous Might
Level 7: Enhancement +6
Level 8: Melee or Ranged Weapon Supremency
Level 9: Overpower, Protection of Dogma
Level 10: Enhancement +8, Unstoppable, Divine Smite 3/day

Enchancement (Ex):
The space marine gains this bonus to strength and consitution, and half this bonus to dexterity.

Divine Smite (Su): The space marine can smite the enemies of the Emperor, adding his charisma bonus to attack and his class level to damage. Any paladin levels stack for the purpose of calculating the damage of this attack. The creature struck need not be of a specific alignment or type: as long as it's considered an enemy of the Emperor by the Space Marines, and too unclean to live.

Sleeplessness (Ex): A space marine need only to sleep for 6 hours a week, at any time during that week.

Divine Blessing (Su): The space marine gains a +4 insight bonus to initiative and damage as well as an additional 12 hit points and +5 feet base movement speed.

Divine Power (Sp): The space marine can use divine power as a cleric of twice his class level, 4 times per day.

Divine Might (Su): You gain Divine Might as a bonus feat if you meet the prerequisites. However, the bonus to damage lasts a number of rounds equal to half your charisma modifier (minimum 1 round).
Armor Superiority (Ex): When wearing masterwork or otherwise advanced power armor, you gain DR 8/-. This overides the bonus from Armor Specialization.

Melee and Ranged Weapon Mastery (Ex): You gain Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) and Ranged Weapon Mastery (energy weapons) as bonus feats, even if you do not meet the prerequisites for these feats.

Divine Ordanance (Su): Any munitions you fire, from energy bolts, grenades to missiles, deals an additional 1d6 points of divine damage and also deals half of their normal damage as divine damage. For instance, if you shot someone with a rifle that normally did 4d6 points of fire damage, it instead would do 2d6 points of fire damage + 3d6 points of divine damage. Also, any ordanance you fire is considered blessed.
(divine damage is energy damage that is of no specific type)

Righteous Might (Sp): The space marine can use righteous might as a cleric of twice his class level, 4 times per day.

Melee or Ranged Weapon Supremacy (Ex): You gain Weapon Supremacy with the weapon you originally had Weapon Specialization in.

Overpower (Su): Twice per day, the space marine can become Overpowering for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution modifier. He gains a +4 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +10 morale bonus to any bull rush, overrun, sunder, attempts he makes. He also gains the +10 bonus on melee damage rolls when he charges, grapple checks, and Strength checks to break objects or force open doors. Furthermore, he gains the benefit of the freedom of movement spell for the duration of this effect.

Protection of Dogma (Ex): The space marine’s zealous devotion and faith in his cause and himself protect him from outside influences. He gains a +8 morale bonus against charms, compulsions and enchantment effects.

Unstoppable (Su): At level 10, the space marine gains the ability to become Unstoppable once a day. He gains all the benefits of Overpower (without using a daily usage of that ability) and also gains the following benefits:
+6 resistance bonus to saves
Resistance to fire, cold, acid, electricity and sonic 20
Immunity to 6th level and lower spell effects.
Fast Healing 20
+20ft base movement speed




Ok, so, considering the class is for BOTH sides of a gestalt, and has some pretty good pre-reqs, is it good? Is it reasonable?

[Kizara]

I've updated a semi-final version of the PrC and template:

any thoughts?

Credit to "sikyon" for some ideas and to horseboy for some inspiration.

Also, anyone got a good link to some Space Marine/Black Templar information/back ground flavour?

Edit: As for build, I'm thinking of doing:

Barb 1/marshal 4 (LA 2)//ftr 4/pal 3 and then take the Space Marine PrC I made above.

Take Power Attack, Wpn focus and Spec (vibro greatsword), armor specialization, improved init, point blank and precise shot for feats.