Charm Person against BBEG

[pwning doodes]

So I'm a new DM, I've only just cut my teeth doing a oneshot. I've almost finished designing a low-level adventure, and I just have a few more tweaks to make, including this.

How can I make sure that the Bard doesn't just use Charm Person on the final boss?

tl;dr: I don't want to outright say "no" to my players when they ask to take perfectly legal actions, but at the same time, I think the story would be less fun without genuine interaction or combat.

Long version:

I plan to make the boss fight be only a single, challenging combatant. He was actually the mysterious quest-giver in the tavern, but turned out not to be as great as the PC's thought. When the players meet the assassin they're supposed to lead him to, the assassin isn't such a bad dude.

Now maybe the players will side with the assassin, tell the tavern guy they failed the mission, and make some friends in the Thieves' Guild. That's fine with me. Maybe when they lead the quest-giver into the hideout and he immediately tries to kill the assassin, they just let him do it. I'm not sure what happens then, but I'm okay with that outcome. If you guys can think of some reward the players get for that perfectly reasonable murderhobo decision in addition to being handed gold by the quest-giver, suggestions are welcome.

However, Charm Person is much less welcome. In my one-shot, they got to the final room, and the Bard went ahead and used two spell slots to Charm both of the goblins in the room (yes, goblins are "humanoid"). They saved the hostage and GTFO before the monsters knew what hit them.

That was funny once, but I really like this villain. As a full-blood human, there's no question that he could be targeted by Charm Person. I conceived of him as a disgustingly overbearing Oath of Vengeance Paladin, but he works much better as a villain than a PC. What I'm saying is that this mission right here? This is his life goal. He is out for blood against the assassin, and he'll be damned if he'll let some random adventurers that he just met take that away from him. Normally, that might lead to a fight, but if Charm Person comes into play, I think it's appropriate that he's resistant to it in some way. Call it a Paladin's devotion in the fluff, but what mechanic do I use? Better saves? Fey Ancestry effect? Straight-up immune? How does that affect his challenge rating? Mostly I want to just use my powers as a GM to say, "No. You can't charm him," but I feel weird about that. I want to let them think they just had bad luck. At that point, maybe I should just fudge the dice roll. "Wisdom saving throw? *rolls a 2* What's your DC? Only 13? He's unaffected by the spell." It's tricking my players, but in a way, all I'm doing is changing the chance of success from small to zero.

I could add more foes, but they would all be under his command, since he's the only one following his own agenda. If he calls off his hypothetical lackeys, they would just stop fighting.

Any suggestions? Anybody else had problems with mind-affecting spells, like Charm Person, Suggestion, and Dominate?

[The Jack]

Best thing to do; Let it happen.

Second best thing to do: give him a good save.

Third best thing to do: cheat his save

Worst possible thing to do: say "no you can't do that". I mean, it's not such a bad thing if you let on you don't want them to do that, but outright stopping something that should be allowed... Players will spit venom.

Honestly it'd make things better if "reasoning with the dude" was an option. "he has to be the villain!!!" is not that fun.

[RazorChain]

First off if you are playing for example 5e then what charm person does it makes the BBEG regard the bard as a "friendly acquaintance ". It doesn't stop him from pursuing his goals. He might not target the bard if a fight breaks out or warn the bard to back off or not to get involved.


Charm person does NOT stop the villain from trying to achieve his goals and it ONLY makes him on friendly terms with the bard.

[Nettlekid]

I plan to make the boss fight be only a single, challenging combatant.

This is your problem, not anything about Charm Person. Even removing the potential for Save-or-Lose spells to ruin your fight in a single action, having a party of 3-6 characters ganging up on even a much stronger opponent will always go in the PC's favor. Action Economy is the most powerful thing in D&D, and a party having the actions they need to counteract the BBEG's turn and then push the battle in their favor will make the fight much less exciting than you plan for it to be.

[Koo Rehtorb]

If the party was there to stop the villain from carrying out his nefarious plot and one of them charmed him I'd carry right on with a modified plan of "Kill the rest of them, and knock out my misguided friend so I can make her see reason later."

[pwning doodes]

All good suggestions. I do plan for them to be able to negotiate/convince, I just don't want that roleplaying opportunity to be gone if someone casts a Charm spell. Once combat is started, it's much harder to pull off anyway. Keeping in mind the thing about "friendly acquaintance" not equalling "throw away your personal goals", it seems like much less of a threat. There would still be room to have an actual interaction instead of just a hands-down auto-win.

Regarding only one boss:

This is your problem, not anything about Charm Person. Even removing the potential for Save-or-Lose spells to ruin your fight in a single action, having a party of 3-6 characters ganging up on even a much stronger opponent will always go in the PC's favor. Action Economy is the most powerful thing in D&D, and a party having the actions they need to counteract the BBEG's turn and then push the battle in their favor will make the fight much less exciting than you plan for it to be.

Hmm, you're probably right. I should bring down his power level some and add more foes. That could even make it more dramatic. Maybe he breaks some kind of one-use magic item and summons some wolves? I'll think of something.

P.S. If anyone cares, the villain guy is the same one I posted about in this thread. Only now he's an NPC.

[Spore]

Charm Person is not mind control. Charm Person does not make the character friendly to ALL the characters in the party. If he combines Charm Person with a slick lie or a very VERY convincing persuasion - rollplay doesn't count, the player needs to procure an actual reason why fighting the bad fight is bad - you should let him have it.

But you are the DM, you can always make him immune. The easiest way would probably be just to change his creature type away from humanoid. If he is a revenant he might qualify as undead. This would still make him follow his goal with great fervor. Consider this. He was killed after doing horrible things by said assassin. By pure force of will, he came back. He always wears heavy clothing and leather because there is a hole where his heart would be. His necklace just keeps his body from rotting and his appearance close to human. If they listen carefully or watch his chest (DC 15 in a silent room) they realize he is not breathing.

Of course this opens up undead control spells and abilities.

[Mechalich]

If charm is a common tactic used by a party, and the BBEG knows the party and has some awareness of their tactics they can and should take steps to have pre-emptive counters in place. A scroll of spell immunity lets the BBEG basically ignore a handful of choice spells the party favors. There are various other methods that would work based on having a scroll or magic item in place.

[FocusWolf413]

If the party was there to stop the villain from carrying out his nefarious plot and one of them charmed him I'd carry right on with a modified plan of "Kill the rest of them, and knock out my misguided friend so I can make her see reason later."

Or he'd attack the bard with extra fervor, as no betrayal cuts as deep as one by your own friend.

[denthor]

Some very real possibilities present themselves.

1 st charm person is broken when his new friend(s) attacks him. If the bard act first in the round. If they show up lose initiative. Figure out how he reacts fist action.

2nd the bard acts first cast charm person he does not save next character attacks same round new save.

3rd party of 4 someone else goes 1st attack. Bard goes next cast charm. Saving throw is dc 15. Since an attack was made before the spell dc is now 11. Your human is in heat of battle so an aggressive action makes the shave lower. If the 3rd person takes an offense action your man gets a second save and a third at DC 11 if the fourth person does.

Once the charm person is thrown all other characters must see action or they get another saving throw especially if the action is aggressive in any way towards the target.

As previously stated Only The Bard is considered a friend the others are watched carefully and reacted to individually

[JeenLeen]

I was in a 5e game where we would KO enemies, have the Warlock use Disguise Self to look like someone else, then have him use Charm Person to get intel.

It usually worked, but sometimes didn't if the prisoner wouldn't trust a good friend. In one example, we captured a drow. She considered him a friend, but friends are just someone you betray later, so she was still rather stand-offish and wondering why he showed up to help her after she got KOed.

I admit that felt a bit like the DM saying "no, not on the boss", but it made sense in-game (and he had warned us such might happen, especially with drow.)

As others have noted, being friends doesn't mean the BBEG won't keep attacking. Depending on edition, it might mean he won't attack the bard -- I think in 5e the Charmed condition includes not attacking the charmer -- but it doesn't freeze other actions, or make him act foolishly beyond trusting one PC.

[Lord Torath]

From Sneakers:

Martin: I thought you said you couldn't kill me!
Cosmo: I cannot kill my friend. <looks aside to henchman> Kill my friend!