D&D 5e Base Class Contest I Chat Thread

[Requilac]

The voting period has begun and no more changes may be made to the base classes.

Welcome to the chat thread for the Base Class Competitions for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition or a contestant’s work which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but nowhere else may you do so. I will also be holding discussions over what the next competition’s theme should be in here. Let us begin.

Submissions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...s-OR-Sorcerery
Voting thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Voting-Thread

[WarrentheHero]

So by these rules, if a competitor posts their class here on GitP, we can't critique it on the post with the class? Only on this, separate, thread?

[Requilac]

So by these rules, if a competitor posts their class here on GitP, we can't critique it on the post with the class? Only on this, separate, thread?

Before we begin let me start by saying that these rules are open to change. If you find that this rule is faulted, then make your case and I would be willing to change it.

All the class submissions will be in the submission thread anyway, they wouldn't create an individual thread for them in the first place. The reason behind that rule is to make sure that the submissions thread is not cluttered and just has the classes posted there for everyone to view. It’s more of an organizational thing. I didn’t see a major problem with it being set up that way, and that is how the 3.5 contests work, so I saw no reason to not go with it. Do you believe that it needs to be changed?

[Requilac]

Is it acceptable for a class to cast spells that don't use spell slots? For example, each Monk archetype (in PHB at least), as well as the base Monk class itself, gives the ability to cast certain spells, but no-one would really consider the Monk to be a "real" spellcaster.

On a related note, are spellcasting subclasses okay? In the vein of Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster

When I made the interest check thread the main idea was to create a class who is no a martial that can do interesting things not covered by spells, so I would advise against unconventional spellcasting too. That being said, making a class which casts spells without spell slots is not going to get you disqualified nor your work declared invalid. If you wish to do that, do so and you will not get punished, but be aware that you may be less likely to be voted on.

[WarrentheHero]

All the class submissions will be in the submission thread anyway, they wouldn't create an individual thread for them in the first place. The reason behind that rule is to make sure that the submissions thread is not cluttered and just has the classes posted there for everyone to view. It’s more of an organizational thing. I didn’t see a major problem with it being set up that way, and that is how the 3.5 contests work, so I saw no reason to not go with it. Do you believe that it needs to be changed?

Somewhere al9ng the lines of 1.5-2 years ago there was a couple of 5e contests that I think were organized pretty well. They had their main thread latlying out the rules. People would build their classes in separate threads, since they were more visible to those outside the contest, and it avoided posting 2-4 pages of content as comments in the submission. Instead, you would simply put a comment in the submission thread with a link to your class, and a link in your class to the contest.

This way, all critiques relates to your class would be contained within the class's thread, which is much easier than cross-referenxing two threads. And again, it meant that your class could be seen by those who don't bother with contests, so you would have greater feedback, and it avoids cluttering the main thread with 25 levels of class features.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If I post a class as a link to, say, a PDF (to ensure non editable-ness), is there a preferred style or set of things that should go in the actual forum post?

I have one as a Google doc that'll be my entry.

[Requilac]

@ WarrentheHero, I will think about what you said and get back to you on it in a little while.

If I post a class as a link to, say, a PDF (to ensure non editable-ness), is there a preferred style or set of things that should go in the actual forum post?

I have one as a Google doc that'll be my entry.

Have you posted this document anywhere else before entering it in the contest? Because if you have then that is technically against the rule to submit it. We don’t want to make it so that some people get more time to get their project PEACHed than others. And no there is not a requirement for the actual forum post in the submission thread, just put the title of your class in and a link and it should be fine.

[Requilac]

Somewhere al9ng the lines of 1.5-2 years ago there was a couple of 5e contests that I think were organized pretty well. They had their main thread latlying out the rules. People would build their classes in separate threads, since they were more visible to those outside the contest, and it avoided posting 2-4 pages of content as comments in the submission. Instead, you would simply put a comment in the submission thread with a link to your class, and a link in your class to the contest.

This way, all critiques relates to your class would be contained within the class's thread, which is much easier than cross-referenxing two threads. And again, it meant that your class could be seen by those who don't bother with contests, so you would have greater feedback, and it avoids cluttering the main thread with 25 levels of class features.

These are all good points and I had definitely considered that set up to it. The main thing though is that most of the people who are doing these contest are also the same people accustomed to doing or viewing the 3.5e competitions, and I wanted to make it easy for those people to compete here too. And I don't really think the cross-referencing is all that difficult, nor do I believe the idea of keeping all the content in one thread as clutter. I suppose it would attract more attention if each class had its own individual thread, but that is about the only merit I can see.

For now though I think we should probably stick with the current model. It is one people are more familiar with (to my knowledge) and is somewhat easier to organize and keep together. Maybe in the future I will implement that but it seems like a fault to do so now. If enough people also bring up the same complaint I will definitely change it, but it just doesn't seem like the best idea now that I have already started everything.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Have you posted this document anywhere else before entering it in the contest? Because if you have then that is technically against the rule to submit it. We don’t want to make it so that some people get more time to get their project PEACHed than others. And no there is not a requirement for the actual forum post in the submission thread, just put the title of your class in and a link and it should be fine.

Nope. I have a different one that I have posted before that I was going to submit until I saw that rule , but the actual submission will be brand new.

I may have slightly misread the theme--it does use weapon attacks but it has plenty of other stuff it can do so I think it counts.

[Requilac]

Nope. I have a different one that I have posted before that I was going to submit until I saw that rule , but the actual submission will be brand new.

I may have slightly misread the theme--it does use weapon attacks but it has plenty of other stuff it can do so I think it counts.

Using weapon attacks is fine, and without that this would be quite the competition, your class just can't have to focus on them. I would classify the rogue as a good class to represent this concept, and take into account just how many attack rolls they make.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Using weapon attacks is fine, and without that this would be quite the competition, your class just can't have to focus on them. I would classify the rogue as a good class to represent this concept, and take into account just how many attack rolls they make.

Ah good. I'll post it tomorrow then.

[Requilac]

Just to stimulate some possibly interesting conversation and clear up any rules confusion, who plans on entering the competition later but does not yet have a fully built class so has yet to post it? Don’t feel the need to answer this, I am just doing this out of curiosity and to see how much attention this thread got.

[thegreatone5224]

Whenever I end up with enough time to do so I will make a class for this.

[clash]

I have plans to post something as well

[WarrentheHero]

I saw someone posted a Google Drive link as a pdf... How do I do that? I finished my class on Google Drive, but don't know the best way to share it here. I know how to get a shareable link, but I liked the look and un-edit-ableness of the pdf.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I saw someone posted a Google Drive link as a pdf... How do I do that? I finished my class on Google Drive, but don't know the best way to share it here. I know how to get a shareable link, but I liked the look and un-edit-ableness of the pdf.

I ended up saving it to PDF (using the download feature), then uploading it and sharing it.

[Sindeloke]

Just to stimulate some possibly interesting conversation and clear up any rules confusion, who plans on entering the competition later but does not yet have a fully built class so has yet to post it? Don’t feel the need to answer this, I am just doing this out of curiosity and to see how much attention this thread got.

I might throw my Marshal on the pile if I can think of a capstone in time.

[Requilac]

I may participate if I get some inspiration.
Placeholder thread for my entry if I do.

I could help you to come up with a concept if you would like me to. Nothing mechanical really, but if you need any ideas I could suggest some.

[clash]

What are the rules regarding spell alternatives? Things like arcane archer shots, Battle master dice and the like?

[MoleMage]

Any feedback anyone wanted to provide on the Spiritcaller so far would be appreciated. I'd be happy to swap feedbacks with anyone else or multiple elses also.

Gonna be back tomorrow to try and finish that up.

[Requilac]

What are the rules regarding spell alternatives? Things like arcane archer shots, Battle master dice and the like?

The idea behind this contest was to create classes which use interesting features outside of spell-casting, so spell alternatives would be frowned upon, but you are not technically going to get punished for your class to have such a feature. It might lose you votes, but its not going to get you disqualified or invalidated.

Any feedback anyone wanted to provide on the Spiritcaller so far would be appreciated. I'd be happy to swap feedbacks with anyone else or multiple elses also.

Gonna be back tomorrow to try and finish that up.

I would be willing to review your class once it is fully built if you would like me to. I just cannot necessarily do so immediately and it may take me a few days.

[MoleMage]

I would be willing to review your class once it is fully built if you would like me to. I just cannot necessarily do so immediately and it may take me a few days.

I have properly finished the class features, but not the proofreading. No rush on review, you have a generous deadline for this contest.

[WarrentheHero]

So, my class is pretty complicated with regards to many of the options available to it. I've put it all into as plain, simple text as possible, but there's still the possibility of questions regarding edge cases and things like that. Is it allowable to post a companion FAQ-esque document alongside it? It won't add any content, it will just be a a few answers to "But what if I do X"- type questions. On the one hand, it might clear up confusion before there is any, but on the other, I can see how one might think that "clarity of class features" is a voting issue and thus the class should stand without a helper. Thoughts on the matter?

[Requilac]

So, my class is pretty complicated with regards to many of the options available to it. I've put it all into as plain, simple text as possible, but there's still the possibility of questions regarding edge cases and things like that. Is it allowable to post a companion FAQ-esque document alongside it? It won't add any content, it will just be a a few answers to "But what if I do X"- type questions. On the one hand, it might clear up confusion before there is any, but on the other, I can see how one might think that "clarity of class features" is a voting issue and thus the class should stand without a helper. Thoughts on the matter?

I don’t see anything wrong with that. An FAQ companion seems perfectly by the rules to me.

[MoleMage]

I've been reading the other two classes that are up so far and here are my thoughts.

General

• We could make a party with just these characters and a healer. Someone submit a healer so that a party entirely from this contest is viable.
• I'm not an expert on balance. Or on design philosophy. Please take all of my commentary with a teaspoon or so of salt.

Protean

• Class table says "Master of Corruption", class feature is named "Master of Mutations" in description.
• I was initially wary of the constitution-based class features but you've given what is clearly meant to be a front-line participant a 1d8 hit die and terrible armor options, which definitely compensates for having such a heavy Con reliance.
• Instinctive Adaptation's effect feels like it could have been a mutation. The name of the feature initially made me think "faster use of a mutation".
• Typo on claws says "you add your modifier to this damage roll as well" but doesn't specify which modifier. I think by context maybe proficiency bonus since you already specified that they are finesse?
• Claws perfect mutation says you can attack twice with them as a bonus action instead of once. Is that for dual-wielding?
• Extendable Reach and Tunneling Limbs are difficult to use because the arms slot is occupied by both provided Chaotic Strains.
• Spiny Carapace should probably use a reaction for the amount of damage it does. For comparison, the spiked-armor-using Battlerager from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide does 3 damage when struck in melee and requires the character to be raging to trigger.
• Rapid growth doesn't specify how often it can be used or what type of rest recovers it.
• Love the return of the hulking hurler.

You'll notice that most of my comments above are proofreading rather than mechanical; this is intentional. I think that overall you've done a very good job of building a functional class that matches your design space mechanically. I would play this class if I wanted to be weird and I am pretty sure that I would feel weird while playing it. Additionally, by my inexpert casual observation, it looks to be within the power curve of existing classes.

Investigator (commentary made before archetypes were finished)

• The table says "Analysis Points" but the description says "Perfect Analyst".
• You have no combat-applicable class features until 6th level in the core class, other than being able to automatically identify stats of a creature as a bonus action. Detective gets +Int to initiative starting at 3, but nothing in particular to do with it. While your class is clearly meant to excel more in out-of-combat contexts, consider what a player of your class is going to be using their action for each round in combat.
• Enhanced Analysis's fourth option seems like it should say damage by context, but says attack rolls.
• Enhanced Analysis doesn't scale beyond increasing Int, which I would probably max out as soon as possible in this class. With a racial bonus of at least +1 and using standard array, this means I would maximize the potential of my core combat ability by level 8, gaining no further scaling as I progress into higher level play. Consider giving it more upgrades, possibly alongside upgrades to other features.
• No core class gets evasion earlier than level 7; your Explorer archetype gets it at 3. Consider giving this archetype something similar to the barbarian's danger sense (level 2) instead at this level, and evasion later on to line up more with monk and rogue.

All in all this class has (so far) a lot of cool flavorful abilities that don't carry a lot of power (ribbons). Almost all of their combat ability is tied up in their level 6 ability, improved by their once-per day level 18 ability. I would suggest giving this class more power earlier on (which doesn't need to be spells or attack bonuses; something in the spirit of Bardic Inspiration would seem more appropriate to the class). I'm curious to see how your archetypes play out once you've fleshed them out more.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Protean

• 1) Class table says "Master of Corruption", class feature is named "Master of Mutations" in description.
• 2) I was initially wary of the constitution-based class features but you've given what is clearly meant to be a front-line participant a 1d8 hit die and terrible armor options, which definitely compensates for having such a heavy Con reliance.
• 3) Instinctive Adaptation's effect feels like it could have been a mutation. The name of the feature initially made me think "faster use of a mutation".
• 4) Typo on claws says "you add your modifier to this damage roll as well" but doesn't specify which modifier. I think by context maybe proficiency bonus since you already specified that they are finesse?
• 5) Claws perfect mutation says you can attack twice with them as a bonus action instead of once. Is that for dual-wielding?
• 6) Extendable Reach and Tunneling Limbs are difficult to use because the arms slot is occupied by both provided Chaotic Strains.
• 7) Spiny Carapace should probably use a reaction for the amount of damage it does. For comparison, the spiked-armor-using Battlerager from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide does 3 damage when struck in melee and requires the character to be raging to trigger.
• 8) Rapid growth doesn't specify how often it can be used or what type of rest recovers it.
• 9) Love the return of the hulking hurler.

You'll notice that most of my comments above are proofreading rather than mechanical; this is intentional. I think that overall you've done a very good job of building a functional class that matches your design space mechanically. I would play this class if I wanted to be weird and I am pretty sure that I would feel weird while playing it. Additionally, by my inexpert casual observation, it looks to be within the power curve of existing classes.

Thanks for the good words. A few responses--

General: yeah, this one's designed to be weird. On purpose. It's designed to be a "that looks screwy, what the @#$#@ is that" class. I'm big on body horror for some reason.

1) Oops. I changed my fluff description and thought I had caught all the changes.
2) Yeah, I wanted it to have a reason to pump CON--making CON an active thing. But on a heavy armor or high HD class that would have been overkill.
3) I wanted some of the "good at varying environments" to be automatic with no opportunity cost. I could tweak the name a bit though.
4) It's designed to be your attack modifier (STR or DEX)--basically you have the TWF fighting style with the claws only (add modifier to damage roll for offhand).
5) Yes. The claws come separately (I should make that more clear) so you can hold a regular weapon in 1 hand and use the claws as the offhand OR use claws in both, for a total of 2 regular attacks (could be claw or manufactured) and 2 bonus action attacks. It's basically the monk while flurrying, but trading the strong control options (ie Stunning Strike) for a bit more consistent damage.
6) Extended reach is the one I was considering changing, or possibly making a special case for the two Strain ones (making them subclass features that don't occupy that slot, since they already don't take up an active mutation slot). Tunneling I was considering as an out of combat thing. You can switch to the combat mutations as a bonus action, so it's only a minor cost, but I'd like to allow for reach if possible.
7) Probably true. The class only has limited use for reactions as it stands, so that would work.
8) That's intentional. It's designed to be at-will (since you don't get another source of damage unlike the more attacks from the claw). Too much? It could be CON-mod/LR.
9) The image of a player bowling with enemies (or throwing the halfling at an enemy) is just too iconic. It's totally something the Hulk would do.

[JNAProductions]

Posting in to take roll. I've been in the hospital, but will work soon.

[MoleMage]

Thanks for the good words. A few responses--

General: yeah, this one's designed to be weird. On purpose. It's designed to be a "that looks screwy, what the @#$#@ is that" class. I'm big on body horror for some reason.

8) That's intentional. It's designed to be at-will (since you don't get another source of damage unlike the more attacks from the claw). Too much? It could be CON-mod/LR.

I worked some of that math out, and it looks like Skulker leads at level 3 for ability bonus +4 and +5, trails after extra attack at level 5 regardless of ability bonus until perfect mutation, at which point it again leads for ability bonus +4 or higher by a smaller margin since by that point brute gets crushing grip (also leads at ability bonus +3 once mutation dice improve to 1d10 at level 17).

So Rapid Growth is stronger through the middle tiers but weaker at both ends. I was considering it in comparison to barbarian rage (which is limited until 20), since Rapid Growth's damage boost is higher than rage's at all levels (using average die value), but accounting for the other bonuses rage grants, I think rage is an overall stronger mechanic and you can probably justify unlimited rapid growth. Besides, I think that even without rage barbarians out DPR Brute because they get heavy weapons and reckless attack so they can use Great Weapon Master.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I worked some of that math out, and it looks like Skulker leads at level 3 for ability bonus +4 and +5, trails after extra attack at level 5 regardless of ability bonus until perfect mutation, at which point it again leads for ability bonus +4 or higher by a smaller margin since by that point brute gets crushing grip (also leads at ability bonus +3 once mutation dice improve to 1d10 at level 17).

So Rapid Growth is stronger through the middle tiers but weaker at both ends. I was considering it in comparison to barbarian rage (which is limited until 20), since Rapid Growth's damage boost is higher than rage's at all levels (using average die value), but accounting for the other bonuses rage grants, I think rage is an overall stronger mechanic and you can probably justify unlimited rapid growth. Besides, I think that even without rage barbarians out DPR Brute because they get heavy weapons and reckless attack so they can use Great Weapon Master.

Good. I'm not too worried about relatively small differences, especially since Brute gets the grappling going while Skulker has defensive advantages.

And both have more utility and variation than a barbarian, so I'd expect the barb to be better in a straight up DPR race.

[Lanth Sor]

So I don't really play 5E but I'm trying my hand at class deign. Major concern my class will have a bite as primary attack option, but is giving scaling damage reasonable like a monk but at a higher amount so like base die being D8. Another trait is they will be able to to swallow whole 2 sizes smaller and eventually 1 size larger. Is there any monsters that a are good pull point?