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    Default PF - SoP - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic Qs

    Gonna be a spheres newb playing in the Mana Wastes as a Doppelganger Amalgam Mimic via playing monsters by CR rules. Class undecided, though replicating my favorite 3.x spells would be cool. Game starts at lvl 3 or 4, only other player us planning a spheres paladin.

    1) What's the right CR for the Doppelmimic? CR7 seems a bit much.
    Resolved, conferred with GM, CR5 it is.
    Can stack on -CR templates to bring its ECL down to size too, GM has okayed removing said templates in place of gaining a level.

    2) Spheres of Power plus Mana Wastes wild magic equals what? Do they even interact?

    3) I hear tell there's custom spells for SoP? I'd like to research my favorite 3.x spells as PF equivalents.
    Create Crawling Claw, Awaken Sand, Minor Servitor, Awaken Ooze, Programmed Amnesia, a version of 3.x True Creation that only makes Shspesand...
    Can these be done with SoP?

    4) Not super familiar with the Mana Wastes, any place in particular a doppelganger/mimic fusion creature could 'naturally' occur?
    Should it be a lone exemplar or should there be a species?
    Resolved, GM would prefer a singular mutant... for now.


    Is looking to be a learning experience regardless.

    Spoiler: Doppelmimic
    Show

    Mimic Amalgam Doppelganger
    What appeared to be a chest filled with treasure comes to life as it grows long, glistening tentacles and a number of sharp teeth.
    This grayish humanoid creature seems almost unfinished, with a narrow head, gaunt limbs, and a sinister, noseless face.
    Mimic Amalgam Doppelganger
    CR 5
    Source Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 1, Advanced Bestiary, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 89
    XP 400
    N Medium aberration (shapechanger)
    Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +1
    Defense
    AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+1 dodge, +4 natural, +1 Dex)
    hp 45 (7d8+14)
    Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +6
    Immune acid, charm, sleep
    Offense
    Speed 30 ft.
    Melee slam +9 (1d8+4 plus adhesive), 2 claws +4 (1d8+2)
    Special Attacks constrict (slam, 1d8+4), mimicry, perfect copy
    Spell-Like Abilities (CL 18th)
    At will—detect thoughts (DC 12)
    Statistics
    Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11
    Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 21 (can’t be tripped)
    Feats Dodge, Great Fortitude
    Skills Bluff +14 (+18 while using change shape ability), Climb +8, Diplomacy +4, Disguise +14 (+34 while using change shape ability or mimicking objects), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Perception +11, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +5; Racial Modifiers +4 Bluff (additional +4 while using change shape ability), +4 Disguise (additional +20 while using change shape ability or mimicking objects)
    Languages Common
    SQ change shape (alter self), mimic object
    Ecology
    Environment any
    Organization solitary, pair, or gang (3–6)
    Treasure NPC Gear
    Special Abilities
    Adhesive (Ex) A mimic exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive-covered mimic automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the mimic is alive without removing the adhesive first. A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated mimic is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC 17 Reflex save. A successful DC 17 Strength check is needed to pry off a stuck weapon. Strong alcohol or universal solvent dissolves the adhesive, but the mimic can still grapple normally. A mimic can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 5 rounds after the creature dies. The save DC is Strength-based.

    Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely.
    As alter self, humanoids only and small or medium only.

    Mimic Object (Ex) A mimic can assume the general shape of any Medium object, such as a massive chest, a stout bed, or a door. The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A mimic’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. A mimic gains a +20 racial bonus on Disguise checks when imitating an object in this manner. Disguise is always a class skill for a mimic.

    Mimicry (Ex) A doppelganger is proficient in all weapons, armor, and shields. In addition, a doppelganger can use any spell trigger or spell completion item as if the spells were on its spell list. Its caster level is equal to its racial Hit Dice.

    Perfect Copy (Su) When a doppelganger uses change shape, it can assume the appearance of specific individuals.


    Mimics are thought to be the result of an alchemist’s attempt to grant life to an inanimate object through the application of an eldritch reagent, the recipe for which is long lost. Over time, these strange but clever creatures have learned the ability to transform themselves into simulacra of man-made objects, particularly in locations that have infrequent traffic by small numbers of creatures, thus increasing their odds of successfully attacking their victims.
    Though mimics are not inherently evil, some sages believe that mimics attack humans and other intelligent creatures for sport rather than merely for sustenance. The desire to completely fool others is thought to be a part of their being, and their surprise attacks against others are a culmination of those desires.
    A typical mimic has a volume of 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet) and weighs about 900 pounds. Legends and tales speak of mimics of much greater sizes, with the ability to assume the form of houses, ships, or entire dungeon complexes that they festoon with treasure (both real and false) to lure unsuspecting food within.

    An amalgam is two different monsters brought together into one being by either magic or selective breeding. The amalgam template can be used to create a new race to replace a standard one, or new creatures resulting from a crossbreeding experiment, or a series of monsters influenced by a god or demon, or even a unique creature created by a magical accident.

    Doppelgangers are strange beings that can take on the shapes of those they encounter. In its natural form, the creature looks more or less humanoid, but slender and frail, with gangly limbs and half-formed facial features. Its flesh is pale and hairless, and its eyes are vacant and white.
    Doppelgangers prefer infiltrating societies where they can gather wealth and influence, and see little point in forming cities of their own kind. Younger doppelgangers practice their skills by taking over small orc or goblin tribes, then move to more complicated societies like dwarven, elven, and human communities. Rather than making themselves targets by taking positions of leadership, they prefer to be the power behind the throne, or use multiple identities to manipulate influential citizens or entire guilds.
    Doppelgangers make excellent use of their natural mimicry to stage ambushes, bait traps, and infiltrate humanoid society. Although not usually evil, they are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived. They are particularly fond of invading human societies in order to indulge in their desires—some enjoy the complex dance of politics while others seek constant change in the race and gender of both themselves and their romantic companions. While not standard, it is those doppelgangers use their gifts for cruel and sadistic purposes that are most notorious, and these shapeshifters are the primary cause of the race’s sinister reputation. Certainly, a creature capable of changing its shape has a handy way to avoid capture for its crimes, and some particularly malicious doppelgangers enjoy disrupting relationships by posing as unfaithful lovers.
    Rumors persist of even more powerful doppelgangers capable of not only shifting their appearance, but also skills, memories, and even the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of creatures whose forms they choose to mimic. These doppelgangers’ change shape ability functions like the spell polymorph rather than alter self.
    Notes CR has had ad hoc adjustment by GM
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2018-05-27 at 05:53 PM.

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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    The parts I can easily answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    2) Spheres of Power plus Mana Wastes wild magic equals what? Do they even interact?
    I would stipulate that wild magic interacts with SoP. I would recommend to use the Wild Magic handbook, which was released today/yesterday, for the effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    3) I hear tell there's custom spells for SoP? I'd like to research my favorite 3.x spells as PF equivalents.
    Create Crawling Claw, Awaken Sand, Minor Servitor, Awaken Ooze, Programmed Amnesia, a version of 3.x True Creation that only makes Shspesand...
    Can these be done with SoP?
    There are incantations, rituals and spellcrafting. Probably the last is more interesting for you. Or you could try to get Spell Adept.

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    4) Not super familiar with the Mana Wastes, any place in particular a doppelganger/mimic fusion creature could 'naturally' occur?
    Should it be a lone exemplar or should there be a species?
    Can't help you there. Talk about this with your GM. Whatever makes more sense to you is likely the best way to handle this.
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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    Conferred with group this morning. The doppelmimic will be s singular creature of CR5.

    As being able to change size would be immensely useful we're working on a possible custom spell for that purpose.

    Dropped a couple of Qs over in the PF RAW Q&A thread. Namely, can a door/wall Mimic let creatures pass through it; and can a Mimic be a functional trap?
    Answered
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2018-04-18 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    Real life and adulting have prevented work on this character and look to continue to interfere.

    That said, could anyone point me to Spheres material that could boost the mimicry this creature-as-character brings to the table?

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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Real life and adulting have prevented work on this character and look to continue to interfere.

    That said, could anyone point me to Spheres material that could boost the mimicry this creature-as-character brings to the table?
    The question is, what do you think would complement a amalgam mimic? Improving Shapechange? Since you are homebrewing, you could try to adapt the Transformation feat line to fit the current abilities. That would allow you to expand the shapeshift via Alteration sphere. Otherwise, do you keep the stats inclusive ability scores? Currently, the creature is geared towards infiltration. The low mental stats don't give you much benefits, but at least spherecasting is stat agnostic (but not the mentioned Spell Dabbler feat). So you could go towards more rougish pursuits.

    SoM would certainly thanks to the Scout sphere. Not sure if the full-BAB classes work with Scout well (never tried to build towards that goal), but Conscript with Scout spezialisation, Technician and maybe Scholar would work well. If you like more magic, Troubadour and Prodigy can provide that. The former seems to slot in at least with your infiltration abilities, the latter is more a general purpose rogue with extra flexibility. Or sage could also complement you, if you go towards a melee fighting style.

    Fully magic classes are more tricky. The shifter duplicates likely too much, unless you get that class or race houseruled to play more nicely together. Eliciter for additional mind control stuff would work well. Incanter is likely more for dipping, unless an option really helps your build out. Armorist could help you getting kitted out for other disguises.

    In addition, there are other base classes which have sphere archetypes - or sphere classes which have archetypes changing the focus. If you like a particular direction, there might be alternatives hiding (like rogue getting magic talents).

    So what do you want to do?
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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    The question is, what do you think would complement a amalgam mimic? Improving Shapechange?

    ...

    In addition, there are other base classes which have sphere archetypes - or sphere classes which have archetypes changing the focus. If you like a particular direction, there might be alternatives hiding (like rogue getting magic talents).

    So what do you want to do?
    When I'd discussed with the group we'd agreed that this critter would make a great infiltrator. So I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too. A spellcasting sneak would be great.

    Someone who dabbles in the spellcraft but excels at infiltration and ambushes. Someone who uses infiltration and as ambush to acquire more arcane knowledge.

    My most Spheres savvy compatriot suggested Bard as the base chassis, it being the quintessential rogue-wizard hybrid class.
    Is there a way to get a couple of up to 9th level spells onto a rogue? A Spheres rogue and custom converted 3.x 9ths no less?
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2018-05-06 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    When I'd discussed with the group we'd agreed that this critter would make a great infiltrator. So I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too. A spellcasting sneak would be great.

    Someone who dabbles in the spellcraft but excels at infiltration and ambushes. Someone who uses infiltration and as ambush to acquire more arcane knowledge.

    My most Spheres savvy compatriot suggested Bard as the base chassis, it being the quintessential rogue-wizard hybrid class.
    Is there a way to get a couple of up to 9th level spells onto a rogue? A Spheres rogue and custom converted 3.x 9ths no less?
    You start with a CR5 creature, which has no racial spellcasting. Even going purely incanter is going to limit you to CL 17 at level 20 (unless you boost your CL). Besides, actual class features cost you CL - unless you go cleric. Maybe. I don't know enough about 3.5, but the triple 9th casting builds have been left behind for good. If you consider teaming up, then Circle Casting + Spiritualism Hedgewitch + optionally Permanent Alteration + Fusion (but works only for two) can cover a lot. With Circle Casting, hedgewitch can use Spiritualism to get other talents than on his own. Then use Circle Casting to grant access to the actual user. Note that without being the receiver of the circle casting, the hedgewitch doesn't necessarily has the prereqs for the talents to use them himself, but there is no rule that the temporary talents go away until the minute is up, so they can be borrowed.

    But in regards to sneaking, Scout sphere has some stuff to hide, Hellcat Stealth is another approach (if you include clarification of SKR), Mind's Dispersion is another one. For "sneak attacking", maybe trade in feats to get combat talents instead. Scout and Sniper have something, IIRC.
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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    You start with a CR5 creature, which has no racial spellcasting. Even going purely incanter is going to limit you to CL 17 at level 20 (unless you boost your CL). Besides, actual class features cost you CL - unless you go cleric. Maybe. I don't know enough about 3.5, but the triple 9th casting builds have been left behind for good. If you consider teaming up, then Circle Casting + Spiritualism Hedgewitch + optionally Permanent Alteration + Fusion (but works only for two) can cover a lot. With Circle Casting, hedgewitch can use Spiritualism to get other talents than on his own. Then use Circle Casting to grant access to the actual user. Note that without being the receiver of the circle casting, the hedgewitch doesn't necessarily has the prereqs for the talents to use them himself, but there is no rule that the temporary talents go away until the minute is up, so they can be borrowed.

    But in regards to sneaking, Scout sphere has some stuff to hide, Hellcat Stealth is another approach (if you include clarification of SKR), Mind's Dispersion is another one. For "sneak attacking", maybe trade in feats to get combat talents instead. Scout and Sniper have something, IIRC.
    Oh, I should clarify, the game is PF. Only a handful of spells are will be converted 3.5 material.

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    Default Re: PF - Spheres - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic

    New job has kept this game from being played for weeks. Looks like this weekend we'll finally get to let this guy out of my head. and set him loose on the GM's gameworld.

    That said I have a few ideas/questions...

    Is there a way to get Dr Who style psychic paper?

    Can a Mimic become a statue that is nonsensical?

    Can a doppelganger become someone missing a limb or facial feature like an eye?

    Can a doppelganger add or remove tattoos or scars?
    Can a Hat of Disguise?
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2018-05-27 at 06:58 AM.

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    Default Re: PF - SoP - Mana Wastes Doppelmimic Qs

    Looks like we're playing tomorrow!

    Still so much work to do on this one...

    Left some Qs over in the RAW Q&A thread.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2018-05-27 at 07:24 AM.

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