Racial Emulation, Chameleons, and Dragonmarks

[retaliation08]

Say a Changeling Chameleon has racial emulation (making them eligible to take dragonmark feats). Could they acquire all dragonmarks using the floating bonus feat?

Assuming they did so, would it stand to reason that they would have to shapechange (emulate) a race in order to have access to that race's mark?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Say a Changeling Chameleon has racial emulation (making them eligible to take dragonmark feats). Could they acquire all dragonmarks using the floating bonus feat?

Assuming they did so, would it stand to reason that they would have to shapechange (emulate) a race in order to have access to that race's mark?

RAW, yes to both.

It's so completely divorced from the setting lore that it's mind-blowing but it's technically rules legal.

[Kelb_Panthera]

they are tied to the races bloodlines, so changeling cant do it

Technically, you have to be a member of the house. The lore says it's by bloodline but the feats don't since people can be adopted or married into the house.

[Malimar]

Say a Changeling Chameleon has racial emulation (making them eligible to take dragonmark feats). Could they acquire all dragonmarks using the floating bonus feat?

Assuming they did so, would it stand to reason that they would have to shapechange (emulate) a race in order to have access to that race's mark?

In a world that made sense: No of course you can't do that, that's silly.


But by RAW:

For clarity, they could acquire any dragonmarks using the floating bonus feat. Not all. The dragonmark goes away when you switch the feat to something else.

And yes, the dragonmark and the SLA go away whenever you're not emulating the right race, because a feat stops working when you stop having its prerequisites. But note that the feat stays, you only lose its benefits, so if you switch back to the proper race, the dragonmark and the SLA comes back.

[retaliation08]

I had meant "all" not "any". I was asking because of something I saw earlier about being able to have multiple shaped soulmelds at once using the floating feat.

[torrasque666]

I had meant "all" not "any". I was asking because of something I saw earlier about being able to have multiple shaped soulmelds at once using the floating feat.

That's because Soulmelds don't unshape on their own, and all the feat does is give you the ability to shape them. So you take the feat, shape them and until you unshape them (or someone else unshapes them for you) they remain. So then you can trade the feat out for another shape soulmeld feat.

[retaliation08]

That's because Soulmelds don't unshape on their own, and all the feat does is give you the ability to shape them. So you take the feat, shape them and until you unshape them (or someone else unshapes them for you) they remain. So then you can trade the feat out for another shape soulmeld feat.

By that logic (I admittedly know little about soulmelds) it would follow that dragonmarks don't dissapear on their own...

Both feats seem a bit absurd, and I don't see how they are different in regards to their absurdity: you are gaining a permanent effect from a temporary feat.

[Malimar]

By that logic (I admittedly know little about soulmelds) it would follow that dragonmarks don't dissapear on their own...

No it wouldn't. When you lose a feat, you lose what that feat gave you, not any knock-on effects.

Shape Soulmeld gives you the ability to shape a soulmeld -- when you lose it, what you lose is the ability to shape a soulmeld. You don't lose any soulmelds you've shaped until they're dispelled or dismissed or whatever.

Least Dragonmark gives you a dragonmark and the ability to use an SLA -- when you lose it, what you lose is the dragonmark and the ability to use the SLA. As an example, imagine the dragonmark gave you mordenkainen's long-duration buff as an SLA (I can't be arsed to look up the actual list for a real example). You use the SLA to cast mordenkainen's long-duration buff, then while mordenkainen's long-duration buff is still active, you switch the feat to a different one, at which point you lose the dragonmark and the ability to cast mordenkainen's long-duration buff, but you don't lose the long-duration buff that's active on you until its duration runs out or it's dispelled or dismissed.

[retaliation08]

I guess it doesnt track with me that a soulmeld would be more permanent than a dragonmark, but if RAW followed reason then I wouldnt have even posted this topic haha.

[Ryuuk]

I would kind of approach this from the other end. If racial emulation and the floating feat lets a changeling grab a dragonmark by the rules, then time to try and justify it through fluff.

Has the changeling advanced its shape shanging to such a degree that it can accuratley adopt a bloodline? Has it somehow learned what differentiates the dragonmarked members of a houses from the rest of their race at a biological level?

Alternatively, do changeling genetics somehow work differently? Maybe they can go backwards, with a changeling born of a dragonmarked race being able to grant its parent access to the bloodline (maybe something like the zerg in starcraft)

These would be plotpoints all on their own, with plenty of repercussions on the setting if they were discovered to be true. This sounds fun, something for the DM and players to play around with, if willing.

[retaliation08]

I would kind of approach this from the other end. If racial emulation and the floating feat lets a changeling grab a dragonmark by the rules, then time to try and justify it through fluff.

Has the changeling advanced its shape shanging to such a degree that it can accuratley adopt a bloodline? Has it somehow learned what differentiates the dragonmarked members of a houses from the rest of their race at a biological level?

Alternatively, do changeling genetics somehow work differently? Maybe they can go backwards, with a changeling born of a dragonmarked race being able to grant its parent access to the bloodline (maybe something like the zerg in starcraft)

These would be plotpoints all on their own, with plenty of repercussions on the setting if they were discovered to be true. This sounds fun, something for the DM and players to play around with, if willing.

I was considering fluff with either Dragonfire adept or Warlock entry into Chameleon. I haven't read all of the Dragonmarked lore, but the idea was that the Changeling would have Khyber as a patron who helped bestow the marks and use the character as an agent to infiltrate the houses.

[Deophaun]

I guess it doesnt track with me that a soulmeld would be more permanent than a dragonmark, but if RAW followed reason then I wouldnt have even posted this topic haha.

Shape Soulmeld is a lot like Craft Wondrous Item. If you used to floating feat for Craft Wondrous Item and made a cloak of charisma, the cloak wouldn't suddenly become non-magical just because you changed feats. Shape Soulmeld is the same way. You are actually making a temporary, quasi-real magic item with the feat. That item can remain after the feat is gone.

The dragonmark, however, is the feat. The feat doesn't let you make a dragonmark, it is the mark.

[retaliation08]

Shape Soulmeld is a lot like Craft Wondrous Item. If you used to floating feat for Craft Wondrous Item and made a cloak of charisma, the cloak wouldn't suddenly become non-magical just because you changed feats. Shape Soulmeld is the same way. You are actually making a temporary, quasi-real magic item with the feat. That item can remain after the feat is gone.

The dragonmark, however, is the feat. The feat doesn't let you make a dragonmark, it is the mark.

Right. It just seems silly that a dragonmark is less permanent than an item, but RAW soesnt care.

[Troacctid]

True dragonmarks require you to be a member of the appropriate dragonmarked race and house. Changelings can emulate the former, but not the latter. The best Racial Emulation can get you is an Aberrant Dragonmark.

If you want a modular dragonmark, try Cataclysm Mage.

[Nifft]

I had meant "all" not "any". I was asking because of something I saw earlier about being able to have multiple shaped soulmelds at once using the floating feat.

That's because Soulmelds don't unshape on their own, and all the feat does is give you the ability to shape them. So you take the feat, shape them and until you unshape them (or someone else unshapes them for you) they remain. So then you can trade the feat out for another shape soulmeld feat.

Soulmelds unshape when you spend an hour in meditation to shape all your soulmelds, so you could actually only get 1 at a time using the floating feat trick.

The funky cheaty thing is you could have shaped a Soulmeld yesterday, then dropped the feat this morning, and use yesterday's Soulmeld all day (and tomorrow, and every day until you spend an hour shaping a new Soulmeld at which point all your shaped Soulmelds go away).


You can have one Soulmeld of any type without needing to keep the feat. You cannot have two Soulmelds from just that one feat.

Whoever told you otherwise was just plain wrong.

[retaliation08]

Soulmelds unshape when you spend an hour in meditation to shape all your soulmelds, so you could actually only get 1 at a time using the floating feat trick.

The funky cheaty thing is you could have shaped a Soulmeld yesterday, then dropped the feat this morning, and use yesterday's Soulmeld all day (and tomorrow, and every day until you spend an hour shaping a new Soulmeld at which point all your shaped Soulmelds go away).


You can have one Soulmeld of any type without needing to keep the feat. You cannot have two Soulmelds from just that one feat.

Whoever told you otherwise was just plain wrong.

I believe I read in another thread on this forum an argument that Chameleon's could be better Incarnates than an Incarnate class by exploiting the floating feat. My ignorance with regards to souldmelding in general may have done their argument a disservice.

Thanks for your explanation, though.

[Nifft]

I believe I read in another thread on this forum an argument that Chameleon's could be better Incarnates than an Incarnate class by exploiting the floating feat. My ignorance with regards to souldmelding in general may have done their argument a disservice.

Thanks for your explanation, though.

Incarnum is a niche system.

It's quite possible that someone had a "brilliant" idea on how to abuse it, but neglected to check the fine print to ensure that it would actually work.

Sadly, the fine print has a devilish way of winning out in the end.

[Troacctid]

Soulmelds unshape when you spend an hour in meditation to shape all your soulmelds, so you could actually only get 1 at a time using the floating feat trick.

That's only if you choose to unshape them.

After resting, a meldshaper must meditate for 1 hour. During this time, he selects and shapes all his soulmelds for the day, simultaneously unshaping any current soulmelds that he does not choose to retain. Any soulmelds previously shaped that he chooses to retain do not need to be reshaped.

If you're retaining the the soulmeld the next day, it remains shaped.

[Inevitability]

RAW, yes to both.

It's so completely divorced from the setting lore that it's mind-blowing but it's technically rules legal.

Well there's not zero precedent for races getting unrelated dragonmarks. Escalation Mage is a thing, after all.

Said prestige class does explicitly mention that abusing the prophecy in this way will make a lot of people want you dead, though.

[Deadline]

As was pointed out earlier, race isn't the only requirement for a Dragonmark, so Racial Emulation won't do what you want by itself. You also need to meet the "Member of appropriate dragonmarked race and house" requirement. That last part isn't something you can fake with Racial Emulation. And before you think that last bit is fluff, it isn't. Look at the first sentence in the benefit line of the feat:

You gain a least dragonmark and the use of one spell-like ability associated with the least dragonmark of your house

Without being part of a dragonmarked house, you don't qualify for the feat, and the feat would do nothing for you.

[retaliation08]

Yep, I am seeing that now. It was a neat idea, but I think I could pull off the subterfuge bit by using a combination of shapechange and arcane mark or magical aura to give the appearance of a dragonmark.

[Nifft]

That's only if you choose to unshape them.

If you're retaining the the soulmeld the next day, it remains shaped.

Huh! You're absolutely correct. Thanks.

I think you don't need to be a Chameleon though -- I think you can do all that with just alter self cast at 7th level.

[Troacctid]

Yep, I am seeing that now. It was a neat idea, but I think I could pull off the subterfuge bit by using a combination of shapechange and arcane mark or magical aura to give the appearance of a dragonmark.

Cataclysm Mage is the class that ACTUALLY gets you a swappable dragonmark.

Huh! You're absolutely correct. Thanks.

I think you don't need to be a Chameleon though -- I think you can do all that with just alter self cast at 7th level.

How so?

[Nifft]

How so?

I think you can turn into a Human, assign your temporary racial bonus feat to Shape Soulmeld, and then meditate for an hour to shape the chosen soulmeld.

So you'd just need alter self to last for over 60 minutes, which caster level 7 does (giving you a spare 9:54 to sit down & finish whatever prep you need for meditation).

Would something stop that from working?

[retaliation08]

With a rod of extend or extend spell feat you could do it at with CL 3 when you get the spell, though there is no room for error.

[Troacctid]

I think you can turn into a Human, assign your temporary racial bonus feat to Shape Soulmeld, and then meditate for an hour to shape the chosen soulmeld.

So you'd just need alter self to last for over 60 minutes, which caster level 7 does (giving you a spare 9:54 to sit down & finish whatever prep you need for meditation).

Would something stop that from working?

Humans gain their bonus feat at level 1, during character creation. Becoming a human with alter self wouldn't get you a bonus feat for the same reason that it wouldn't give you extra skill points.

[Jack_Simth]

Humans gain their bonus feat at level 1, during character creation. Becoming a human with alter self wouldn't get you a bonus feat for the same reason that it wouldn't give you extra skill points.

Funny thing about Alter Self:

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

(emphasis added)

It gives bonus feats, right there as part of the spell. That said: A humans don't get a "bonus feat"! They get an "extra feat". It might just be a game of semantics; "extra" and "bonus" are largely the same in natural language use. However, if they're read as game mechanical terms, then they're not the same thing. Different DMs will rule differently.

In Pathfinder, it straight-up doesn't work; a human gets a "Bonus Feat" as part of the racial write up. However, Pathfinder's Alter Self doesn't grant bonus feats.

Huh. Just noticed that... it's explicitly a Bonus Feat for a human. Huh. Does Pathfinder have the same clause about not needing to qualify for bonus feats as part of the general rules?