Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Rater202]

My Money's on Strange but I'm really not invested.

Though my 20 1 odds that this ends with Doctor Strangefate despite strange and fate collectively only being half of the Strangefate Amalgam is still open if people wanna bet on it.

[SKarious]

I'm not familiar with Fate, so allow me a quick question:
Did Fate ever fight someone with time powers? Because strange probably has the Eye of Agamotto. Which means he can probably rewind any attack that does not kill him outright.(As far as we know, this power even functions in another dimensions).

[Reddish Mage]

I'm not familiar with Fate, so allow me a quick question:
Did Fate ever fight someone with time powers? Because strange probably has the Eye of Agamotto. Which means he can probably rewind any attack that does not kill him outright.(As far as we know, this power even functions in another dimensions).

That’s the movie version of the Eye of Agamotto, which does function in other dimensions even where there is no time (what they say explicitly of the Dark Dimension). Also, from the Dark Dimension climax, we see the Eye can even reverse the effects of attacks that DO kill Strange. This shtick alone would allow Dr. Strange to play events in an infinite loop until he either wins or his opponent gets bored and gives up (as in the movie).

In the comic book, the eye’s powers are spatial rather than temporal, however Dr. Strange has powerful healing powers and all sorts of magic we have not seen in the movies.

[Kitten Champion]

On the topic of potential Death Battles, I've been watching Lupin III and considering possible combatants for the titular character.

My mind goes to James Bond, as Lupin draws significantly from it conceptually.

[Devonix]

I'm not familiar with Fate, so allow me a quick question:
Did Fate ever fight someone with time powers? Because strange probably has the Eye of Agamotto. Which means he can probably rewind any attack that does not kill him outright.(As far as we know, this power even functions in another dimensions).

Fate has time powers, and has placed people in timeloops as well as trapped them in time. and time traveled. Strange isn't the type to usually have access to time magic though. He's never really dabbled in it from what I recall.

[Reddish Mage]

On the topic of potential Death Battles, I've been watching Lupin III and considering possible combatants for the titular character.

My mind goes to James Bond, as Lupin draws significantly from it conceptually.

That could be an interesting match-up, except Lupin is animated and potentially have all sorts of abilities and perform different feats far beyond what James Bond could.

I am just not sure what Lupin’s abilities are.

Fate has time powers, and has placed people in timeloops as well as trapped them in time. and time traveled. Strange isn't the type to usually have access to time magic though. He's never really dabbled in it from what I recall.

Not “usually have access to time magic” or simply not use it. Dr. Strange has a lot of spells, items, etc. that he has used on occasion. The question is what’s the reason he can’t just take those out for Death Battle?

[Keltest]

Not “usually have access to time magic” or simply not use it. Dr. Strange has a lot of spells, items, etc. that he has used on occasion. The question is what’s the reason he can’t just take those out for Death Battle?

Presumably the same reason he doesn't take them out for every other battle. There are risks/consequences he does not want to invoke lightly, or something.

[Anteros]

On the topic of potential Death Battles, I've been watching Lupin III and considering possible combatants for the titular character.

My mind goes to James Bond, as Lupin draws significantly from it conceptually.

I don't know that I'd be interested in watching a Death Battle, but maybe if it was some sort of contest against another smooth talking thief character to see who could steal something first. I can't really think of a good candidate right now though.

[Kitten Champion]

That could be an interesting match-up, except Lupin is animated and potentially have all sorts of abilities and perform different feats far beyond what James Bond could.

I am just not sure what Lupin’s abilities are.

He's mostly a mix of high-flying daredevil stuff, cat-like agility, and eclectic gadgets. He's a master of disguise, along with being an overall Trickster character.

Like Bond, he may be exaggerated but still human in what he's capable of.

I don't know that I'd be interested in watching a Death Battle, but maybe if it was some sort of contest against another smooth talking thief character to see who could steal something first. I can't really think of a good candidate right now though.

The only issue with a theft-off is it'd be really difficult to conclude much of anything, in particularly because the challenge itself would be difficult to define to any satisfaction. I too am having difficulty thinking of a thief character that people have heard about and remotely matches Lupin for any kind of contest.

Having thought of if though, I think we're Bond to have a Death Battle Jason Bourne would be better. Particularly the toned down Daniel Craig Bond where they've been kind of competing franchises for the last decade or so.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The only issue with a theft-off is it'd be really difficult to conclude much of anything, in particularly because the challenge itself would be difficult to define to any satisfaction. I too am having difficulty thinking of a thief character that people have heard about and remotely matches Lupin for any kind of contest.

Doesn't Lupin team up sometimes? You could have a team theft-off vs the Leverage crew.

[Otomodachi]

He's mostly a mix of high-flying daredevil stuff, cat-like agility, and eclectic gadgets. He's a master of disguise, along with being an overall Trickster character.

IIRC (used to be a huge fan, but it's been a while) Lupin is also basically the 2nd best marksmen in the world, and also unnaturally lucky, too. He's also an amazing driver and pilot.

Lupin vs. James Bond is really one of those match-ups that doesn't fit into the Death BATTLE format great but it'd be a pretty cool match-up as long as they used the "why they fight premise" to sort of shape the battlefield, instead of just having em throw punches and bullets at each other.

I think I'd give it to Lupin cuz of the luck, but I'm receptive to being wrong. Multiple times he's wagered just obscene amounts of loot on a stupid, random event like a coin toss, and he ONLY loses if the other person has rigged the game. Otherwise it always comes out in his favor. That ain't natural, man.

Doesn't Lupin team up sometimes? You could have a team theft-off vs the Leverage crew.

Lupin tends (almost ALWAYS the more modern the version you're watching) to work with Ji-Gen, the best marksman in the world, and Goemon, the best swordsman in the world. Goemon is an impossibly good swordsman.

Also Fujiko, who is pretty on par with Lupin when it comes to stealthy ****, is a super talented con-artist and may or may not betray the team.

[Traab]

Sounds like another fisher/snake fight to me. Both are after the macguffin, both fight each other for it, break out gadgets to try and win, go back to fighting, then boom, someone realizes they have a stick of exploding gum stuck to their heel jut a moment too late.

[Reddish Mage]

Presumably the same reason he doesn't take them out for every other battle. There are risks/consequences he does not want to invoke lightly, or something.

In a Death Battle, the assumption is that they'll pull out all stops, not initially (unless they do that all the time) but Fate will put up enough of a fight that Strange will presumably do some of his most powerful magic he has access to before either winning or losing.

[Keltest]

In a Death Battle, the assumption is that they'll pull out all stops, not initially (unless they do that all the time) but Fate will put up enough of a fight that Strange will presumably do some of his most powerful magic he has access to before either winning or losing.

Im aware of that, but unless theres some time travel spell where the only reason he doesn't use it is because it can only be used to kill somebody or something like that, then the same reasons for not using it in the comics should apply to death battles. He might reach that point eventually if the fight lasts long enough and its a feasible weapon to use at that point, but he isn't suddenly going to just open up with the super collateral damage universe threatening spells just because its a death battle, he would have to work his way through his less risky options first.

[Reddish Mage]

Im aware of that, but unless theres some time travel spell where the only reason he doesn't use it is because it can only be used to kill somebody or something like that, then the same reasons for not using it in the comics should apply to death battles. He might reach that point eventually if the fight lasts long enough and its a feasible weapon to use at that point, but he isn't suddenly going to just open up with the super collateral damage universe threatening spells just because its a death battle, he would have to work his way through his less risky options first.

I think we're agreed in how it plays out, and it plays out with Strange (and Fate) getting to unleash some pretty big stuff.

I'm not sure if he'll get into time looping, I think its more likely to happen if Dr. Fate is winning.

[Devonix]

Im aware of that, but unless theres some time travel spell where the only reason he doesn't use it is because it can only be used to kill somebody or something like that, then the same reasons for not using it in the comics should apply to death battles. He might reach that point eventually if the fight lasts long enough and its a feasible weapon to use at that point, but he isn't suddenly going to just open up with the super collateral damage universe threatening spells just because its a death battle, he would have to work his way through his less risky options first.

It's not like time magic would really have any affect on Fate anyway. Fate doesn't actually have a physical body. When he's actually doctor Fate, His body is just force energy, not meat, he doesn't age. Hell his physical age isn't even his biological Age.

You can't trap him in time because he's got instant access to time travel and time spells.

[Reddish Mage]

It's not like time magic would really have any affect on Fate anyway. Fate doesn't actually have a physical body. When he's actually doctor Fate, His body is just force energy, not meat, he doesn't age. Hell his physical age isn't even his biological Age.

You can't trap him in time because he's got instant access to time travel and time spells.

I think this is still true of him, but I think they’ll be going with Kent Nelson as Doctor Fate rather than Nabu without a host. If they do pull out Nabu, it’ll be for a surprise finish.

[Devonix]

I think this is still true of him, but I think they’ll be going with Kent Nelson as Doctor Fate rather than Nabu without a host. If they do pull out Nabu, it’ll be for a surprise finish.

I was talking about Nelson. His body exists as pure force that he can manipulate.

[Keltest]

It's not like time magic would really have any affect on Fate anyway. Fate doesn't actually have a physical body. When he's actually doctor Fate, His body is just force energy, not meat, he doesn't age. Hell his physical age isn't even his biological Age.

You can't trap him in time because he's got instant access to time travel and time spells.

When it comes to time travel magic, it really becomes a game of rocket tag. Whoever successfully breaks out the spell first, if used intelligently (and come on, it will be) will just win. I cant say it would be particularly satisfying to end it that way, so I can understand if they have both parties be too reluctant to break them out before its too late, just because nobody wants to deal with that.


Frankly, I think this is going to be one of those fights where it could go either way, basically being a test to see who makes a mistake first with no guaranteed stronger combatant.

[Forum Explorer]

Sounds like another fisher/snake fight to me. Both are after the macguffin, both fight each other for it, break out gadgets to try and win, go back to fighting, then boom, someone realizes they have a stick of exploding gum stuck to their heel jut a moment too late.

Well that sounds good to me. Snake vs Fisher was one of the better Death Battles.

[ArlEammon]

I admit I don't know a lot about Kent Nelson, but Doctor Strange is so powerful, if his brand of magic were allowed in the Cthulhu Mythos, it wouldn't be cosmic horror anymore, because the mortals would be too powerful.

[Devonix]

I admit I don't know a lot about Kent Nelson, but Doctor Strange is so powerful, if his brand of magic were allowed in the Cthulhu Mythos, it wouldn't be cosmic horror anymore, because the mortals would be too powerful.

Quite right, but Doctor Fate, isn't a mortal, he and Nabu are a cosmic horror.

[Anteros]

I feel like the typical Strange showing is stronger than the typical Fate depiction. That's all meaningless though since DB will decide the whole thing based on a few extreme outliers like always.

[Rynjin]

I feel like the typical Strange showing is stronger than the typical Fate depiction. That's all meaningless though since DB will decide the whole thing based on a few extreme outliers like always.

I don't mind extreme outliers quite as much in the case of comics v comics; they'll generally have equally bull**** feats to pull from.

[Reddish Mage]

I feel like the typical Strange showing is stronger than the typical Fate depiction. That's all meaningless though since DB will decide the whole thing based on a few extreme outliers like always.

I read by "typical" meaning "what you see when you look or read the character casually" and "extreme outlier" as “what you get on occasion but not every story.” The feats they pic, by land large are impressive, but not far out of the range of what we see. They ignore stuff that the characters have to be alternate universe versions or operating under unique conditions.

You have people arguing on the other side crying foul for powers for characters they’ve never actually used, such as Spider-Man 2099 wielding Mjolnir in battle or a certain unmentionable wiping out a galaxy.

The notion you can just disregard feats like Thor throwing around the Midgard Serpent etc. etc. is just perplexing. The idea you end up with a better standard when you go with “average” instead of creating even more arguments and fuzziness is hubris.

The only way to get at a typical measure would be to take every single appearance in every single comic and figure out what happens the most. Instead, you get people BSing it out from their own various levels of familiarity. You also end up with absurd conclusions like Superman potentially being in the large vehicle lifting strength category, because I suppose he does that more often then lift things like continents and planets.

The way they do things now, measuring attributes, feats and skills by their most potent demonstrations consistent with canon, is about as close to an objective test you are going to get.

I think you want to say we should take the “typical” performance just to be contrarian.

[Anteros]

Reddish Mage when he doesn't like the characters. "Let's use inconsistencies to undermine their feats!"

May I recall we got on this conversation because I posted evidence that the numbers in Dragon Ball Z itself were widely inconsistent.

Now you want to bring in Broly and argue from his powerlevel in a non-canon movie and extrapolate linearly from what the movie says he can do with a power level of 10,000 (which no one else with that meager power level can apparently do).

The very fact that powerlevels go bonkers during Frieza and Cell Saga shows they are non-linear. In the real fight, if you fight someone twice as strong or fast than you its an immediate curb stomp. In Dragon Ball you have expotential differences being made up all the time. Our much weaker fighters every so often come in and make a temporary contribution.

How the heck does Super Saiyan Goku get hurt by a rock casually thrown by Krillin (while they are fishing during the prelude to Cell Games) yet not get utterly destroyed the moment he lets his guard down and a real blow land?

How can post-Cell Games base-form Goku struggle with a 10 ton weight? He has handled far more than that when he was gravity training let alone by having mountains dropped on him.

The numbers make no sense, have never made any sense and it really makes no sense that Broly can destroy an entire galaxy while Buu is limited to one planet at a time.

Reddish Mage when he does like the characters "Extreme outliers are fine to use!"

The notion you can just disregard feats like Thor throwing around the Midgard Serpent etc. etc. is just perplexing. The idea you end up with a better standard when you go with “average” instead of creating even more arguments and fuzziness is hubris.

The only way to get at a typical measure would be to take every single appearance in every single comic and figure out what happens the most. Instead, you get people BSing it out from their own various levels of familiarity. You also end up with absurd conclusions like Superman potentially being in the large vehicle lifting strength category, because I suppose he does that more often then lift things like continents and planets.

The way they do things now, measuring attributes, feats and skills by their most potent demonstrations consistent with canon, is about as close to an objective test you are going to get.

I think you want to say we should take the “typical” performance just to be contrarian.

It must be nice to change your stance every time it's convenient to your argument, but it makes it difficult to have a discussion with you.

[Knaight]

Reddish Mage when he doesn't like the characters. "Let's use inconsistencies to undermine their feats!"



Reddish Mage when he does like the characters "Extreme outliers are fine to use!"



It must be nice to change your stance every time it's convenient to your argument, but it makes it difficult to have a discussion with you.

Those are both consistent with a position of using extreme feats provided that they're reasonable clear on what's even happening. I'm not particularly fond of the extreme outlier approach (particularly when it's clear that it's less characters actually doing something in particular and more artistic license as applied to terrain damage, which is where about half the feats come from), but it's consistent.

[Reddish Mage]

It’s completely consistent to allow extreme outliers, while disallowing inconsistencies, but my question is where are all these extreme outliers I’m endorsing and you are decrying. Superman’s feats are extreme outliers? I’ve shown an entire catalog of them...showing something happening repeatedly undermines the notion that they are “extreme outliers.” Who else have I “liked” ? Batman Beyond, although I don’t recall actually addressing his strength level, mainly attacked the notion that Spider-Man 2099 should have the full powers of Mjolnir because he gets it in the comic (but doesn’t use it in battle).

Your criticism of me doesn’t even make much sense. I don’t so much like characters as I point out that Death Battle is actually pretty consistent with how they pick who wins and also, I think they do a whole lot more research and are far more thoughtful about what they are doing than their critics.

I don’t so much have favorite characters as I see a certain set of rules that can be applied (with a great deal of judgment) to determine a winner with a reasonable feeling of consistency and objectivity.

[Devonix]

I've always held the unpopular stance that low showings for all characters should be allowed along with their higher feats. And the truth of a character lies somewhere in the middle.

[Reddish Mage]

I've always held the unpopular stance that low showings for all characters should be allowed along with their higher feats. And the truth of a character lies somewhere in the middle.

THen why average their lows and their highs? Why not work the middle?

Also, your suggestion lacks definition. What counts as a “low.” Do we average Superman on Kryptonite with his most astonishing feats of strength and interprete both of them to the farthest extent possible (so literally zero averaged with infinity...which is still infinity). Do we take Superman as depicted in Smallville and the Christopher Reeves movie together with Pre/Post-Crisis together with Adventures of Superboy?

Similarly, what’s a “low” for the Hulk. Are you including early career Hulk, later brainier grey-Hulk, or even just Bruce Banner not being able to transform?

At one point, there was a suggestion we look at what minimum thing makes the character strain...for Superman that has included ordinary vehicles, which is almost as silly as considering his abilities when he’s as weak as a baby on Kryptonite.

The high points make at least a certain amount of sense as a showing of the outer limits of what a character is capable of, as long as you remove high points that are induced by very special conditions that wouldn’t be replicated in a typical Death Battle. It’s hard to say that the low points reflect the characters capabilities and not simply instances where they didn’t use their capabilities to the fullest.