A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Feats to encourage multiclassing, plus the feat that RAI mystic theurges everywhere have been waiting for! I'm considering doing Practiced Artist (for bardic music and/or bardic lore), Practiced Berserker (barbarian rage), Practiced Brawler (for monk unarmed attack damage) or Practiced Thief (for sneak attack) as well, but those might make their base classes completely superfluous.

    Practiced Beastmaster
    Your bestial ally is as experienced as you are.

    Prerequisites
    Animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

    Benefits
    The abilities of your animal companion, familiar, and/or special mount are determined by your character level rather than your class level (even if you are a paladin or ranger).

    The strength of your wild empathy ability (if any) is determined by your character level, rather than your class level.

    Special
    If you possess more than one such bestial ally, the benefits of this feat apply to all of them.

    Practiced Exorcist
    Undead fear (or worship) your power, not necessarily your faith.

    Prerequisites
    Ability to turn or rebuke undead.

    Benefits
    Your ability to turn or rebuke undead is determined by your character level, rather than your class level (even if you are a paladin).

    Special
    If you possess the ability to both turn and rebuke undead, the benefits of this feat apply to both those powers.

    Practiced Spellcaster
    You pursue more than one path to power, but are careful not to neglect your talents in a particular area.

    Prerequisites
    Ability to cast spells as a member of the chosen class, character level 3rd.

    Benefits
    Your ability to cast spells (spells per day, spells known, caster level, etc.) as a member of the chosen class increases by one level, to a maximum of your character level.

    Special
    You may select this feat more than once, choosing either the same spellcasting class or a different one. Whenever you choose the same class, the effects stack.

    The benefits of this feat apply to racial spellcasting (e.g. a guardian naga's sorcerer spellcasting).
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-05-11 at 01:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Practiced Exorcist
    Undead fear (or worship) your power, not necessarily your faith.

    Prerequisites
    Ability to turn or rebuke undead.

    Benefits
    Your ability to turn or rebuke undead is determined by your class level, rather than your character level.

    Special
    If you possess the ability to both turn and rebuke undead, the benefits of this feat apply to both those powers.
    Seems like you got those backwards.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Seems like you got those backwards.
    Whoooooopps! Thanks :D

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Beastmaster could use a clarification on how it interacts with rangers (does the companion scale with 1/2 character level to match the ranger's general scaling, or with full level), but it looks okay. Only place it feels strong is with druids, and druids have enough other incentives to stay in the class that having one feature continue to scale if they PRC out won't shift the balance too strongly. (Plus, y'know, fullcaster.)

    Exorcist looks okay. Paladins could use a clarification on whether they use straight character level or character level - 3, similar to what I mentioned about rangers above, but that doesn't change the balance too much.

    Spellcaster really needs a prerequisite, and could end up giving theurge builds a boost beyond what you're thinking. First there's a theoretical/RAW exploit, where someone could purchase multiple copies of the feat at first level expecting them to activate when they picked up other levels later. Second, more practically, even as intended it allows someone to get into mystic theurge a level earlier than normal. Wiz3/Clr2 (+1 effective cleric level for the feat) gets in at level five, while only putting wizard casting two levels behind over the whole of their career even if they never pick up another copy of Practiced Spellcaster.

    There are other places where a PRC treats being one caster level behind (whether as part of a prereq or baked into the class) as the main cost for what it brings, which your version of Spellcaster also undermines. I guess it's balanced, not to mention somewhat liberating, if the balance point you're aiming for is "T1 or suck". That's aimed at a certain type of campaign and shouldn't be seen as the norm, though.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Beastmaster could use a clarification on how it interacts with rangers (does the companion scale with 1/2 character level to match the ranger's general scaling, or with full level), but it looks okay. Only place it feels strong is with druids, and druids have enough other incentives to stay in the class that having one feature continue to scale if they PRC out won't shift the balance too strongly. (Plus, y'know, fullcaster.)

    Exorcist looks okay. Paladins could use a clarification on whether they use straight character level or character level - 3, similar to what I mentioned about rangers above, but that doesn't change the balance too much.

    Spellcaster really needs a prerequisite, and could end up giving theurge builds a boost beyond what you're thinking. First there's a theoretical/RAW exploit, where someone could purchase multiple copies of the feat at first level expecting them to activate when they picked up other levels later. Second, more practically, even as intended it allows someone to get into mystic theurge a level earlier than normal. Wiz3/Clr2 (+1 effective cleric level for the feat) gets in at level five, while only putting wizard casting two levels behind over the whole of their career even if they never pick up another copy of Practiced Spellcaster.

    There are other places where a PRC treats being one caster level behind (whether as part of a prereq or baked into the class) as the main cost for what it brings, which your version of Spellcaster also undermines. I guess it's balanced, not to mention somewhat liberating, if the balance point you're aiming for is "T1 or suck". That's aimed at a certain type of campaign and shouldn't be seen as the norm, though.
    Hey thanks for the extensive writeup!

    Beastmaster and Exorcist are both intended as written (even as a pure ranger or paladin, you can take the feat to enhance your the respective class feature to match a druid or cleric). I suppose you could also do something like Druid 1/Wizard X, taking Beastmaster and Practiced Spellcaster (to shore up the lost Wizard level) too, but I think 2 feats are a fair tradeoff.

    Added a "character level 3rd" prerequisite to Practiced Spellcaster, so no human bonus feat shenanigans now (and thanks for pointing that out!). I'm fine with it facilitating the mild early-entry you describe (obviously the DM shouldn't allow any Precocious Spellcaster or Illumian tricks though). Assuming you invest all your feats from 3rd to 18th level, at 20th level (simple Clr 5/Wiz 5/Myst Theurge 10) you'll cast spells as a Wizard 18/Cleric 18 at the cost of 6 feats. An acceptable result for devoting your entire build to theurgy, IMHO.

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    ...Practiced Artist (for bardic music and/or bardic lore), Practiced Berserker (barbarian rage), Practiced Brawler (for monk unarmed attack damage) or Practiced Thief (for sneak attack) as well, but those might make their base classes completely superfluous.
    Bard, rogue, and barbarian are good enough that they'd still be viable as classes.
    Monk is just a 6-level dip, tops, anyways. It's not like making a feat that grants you +1 AC and increases your unarmed damage to a monk your level would be that damaging to the class.

    What about doing it like "Pick X class. Your levels in that class stack with Y class for purposes of Z abilities"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Practiced Beastmaster
    Your bestial ally is as experienced as you are.

    Prerequisites
    Animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

    Benefits
    The abilities of your animal companion, familiar, and/or special mount are determined by your character level rather than your class level.

    The strength of your wild empathy ability (if any) is determined by your character level, rather than your class level.

    Special
    If you possess more than one such bestial ally, the benefits of this feat apply to all of them.
    Have you considered how this interacts with ubermount builds?

    I'd be okay with specifically stating that rangers with this feat use their full level to determine their animal companion's abilities, rather than half their level. That's a nerf they didn't need and the druids did.

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Practiced Spellcaster
    You pursue more than one path to power, but are careful not to neglect your talents in a particular area.

    Prerequisites
    Ability to cast spells as a member of the chosen class, character level 3rd.

    Benefits
    Your ability to cast spells (spells per day, spells known, caster level, etc.) as a member of the chosen class increases by one level, to a maximum of your character level.

    Special
    You may select this feat more than once, choosing either the same spellcasting class or a different one. Whenever you choose the same class, the effects stack.

    The benefits of this feat apply to racial spellcasting (e.g. a guardian naga's sorcerer spellcasting).
    This is good for spellcasters. It is therefore objectively wrong, and you're a bad person for creating it.
    Joking aside, I agree with your assessment that this is a fairly balanced feat. I don't think I've ever seen the sort of superpowered caster in play that the internet insists all casting characters are (the best I've seen was a blaster, and that's because his competition topped out at "mounted fighter who was in a dungeon crawl"), and all of the high-op casting builds I've looked at are stretched tight for feats.
    Last edited by Solaris; 2018-05-07 at 08:23 AM.
    My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen the sort of superpowered caster in play that the internet insists all casting characters are (the best I've seen was a blaster, and that's because his competition topped out at "mounted fighter who was in a dungeon crawl"), and all of the high-op casting builds I've looked at are stretched tight for feats.
    Blaster is the least game breaking type of caster. There are tons of things a GM can do against that.
    Enchantments, illusions, terrain modification, action-dampeners, minions, negative conditions, polymorph (basically SoS effects) - that's how you effectively overpower your opponents.

    I once played a gnome beguiler (which most categorize as a Tier 3 class), specializing on SoS spells and stealthy casting. Most opponents never knew what hit them before they went down.
    I rocked so bad that it ruined the fun for all the other players.

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Blaster is the least game breaking type of caster. There are tons of things a GM can do against that.
    Enchantments, illusions, terrain modification, action-dampeners, minions, negative conditions, polymorph (basically SoS effects) - that's how you effectively overpower your opponents.

    I once played a gnome beguiler (which most categorize as a Tier 3 class), specializing on SoS spells and stealthy casting. Most opponents never knew what hit them before they went down.
    I rocked so bad that it ruined the fun for all the other players.
    You don't say! It's almost like I emphasized blaster for a reason.
    Hint: That reason was not because I think blasters are the most potent things casters can be.
    My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.

    Currently Playing
    Raiatari Eikibe - Ghostfoot's RHOD Righteous Resistance

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Bard, rogue, and barbarian are good enough that they'd still be viable as classes.
    Monk is just a 6-level dip, tops, anyways. It's not like making a feat that grants you +1 AC and increases your unarmed damage to a monk your level would be that damaging to the class.
    I suppose... I just worry that bard songs, barbarian rages, and rogue sneak attack are the "essence" of their respective classes and making them into feats somehow cheapens them.

    What about doing it like "Pick X class. Your levels in that class stack with Y class for purposes of Z abilities"?
    I posted a generic feat a while back along those lines, was probably better done just as a houserule though haha:

    Savant
    You have trained in many disciplines.

    Prerequisites
    At least one level in each of two different classes.

    Benefits
    Use your character level instead of your class level for the following class features: animal companion, bardic knowledge, bardic music, favoured enemy, lay on hands, monk AC bonus, monk flurry of blows, monk unarmed damage, rage, smite evil, sneak attack, special mount, summon familiar, trap sense, turn or rebuke undead, wild empathy, and wild shape.

    If a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, it is always treated as a class skill for you (regain 1 skill point for each cross-class skill rank you have purchased in such a skill when you take this feat).

    Special
    The benefits of Savant do not apply to class features you do not possess. For example, a character must be at least a 1st-level druid or 4th-level ranger to advance his animal companion with this feat.

    At the DM's option Savant may apply to other class features (e.g. non-Core classes).

    Have you considered how this interacts with ubermount builds?
    Afraid I haven't seen those builds. I hope they don't grant a spellcasting mount or somesuch!

    I'd be okay with specifically stating that rangers with this feat use their full level to determine their animal companion's abilities, rather than half their level. That's a nerf they didn't need and the druids did.
    They were definitely meant to incorporate this, but you're the 2nd person to point it out so I'll make it explicit.

    This is good for spellcasters. It is therefore objectively wrong, and you're a bad person for creating it.
    Joking aside, I agree with your assessment that this is a fairly balanced feat. I don't think I've ever seen the sort of superpowered caster in play that the internet insists all casting characters are (the best I've seen was a blaster, and that's because his competition topped out at "mounted fighter who was in a dungeon crawl"), and all of the high-op casting builds I've looked at are stretched tight for feats.
    Thanks! I was happy it worked out to allow 9th-level spells even to sorcerers/favoured souls, while still incorporating delays in spellcasting & feat taxes.
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-05-11 at 01:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    You don't say! It's almost like I emphasized blaster for a reason.
    Hint: That reason was not because I think blasters are the most potent things casters can be.
    You said: "...all of the high-op casting builds I've looked at are stretched tight for feats".
    I beg to differ. In the example I used regarding myself, I played a 7th level character, and I had a several formulated strategies how to go all the way up to level 20. Sure, I bled my character resources dry (including skill tricks and calculations of skill-synergies), but by then I'd already built the foundations I needed, so from then on I had a lot of room to maneuver.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2018-05-11 at 04:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Practiced X, Revised (feats)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    You said: "...all of the high-op casting builds I've looked at are stretched tight for feats".
    I beg to differ. In the example I used regarding myself, I played a 7th level character, and I had a several formulated strategies how to go all the way up to level 20. Sure, I bled my character resources dry (including skill tricks and calculations of skill-synergies), but by then I'd already built the foundations I needed, so from then on I had a lot of room to maneuver.
    I think you guys are in agreement? :)

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