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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Welcome back, MoleMage! Also, welcome back, me! I locked myself out of my account for a few days.

    My entry is up, with some much needed love for the ranger with the archetype of the Unerring Marksman.
    My Homebrew (Free to use, don't even bother asking. PM me if you do, though; I'd love to hear stories).

    Avatar done by me (It's Durkon redrawn as Salvador from Borderlands 2).



    Nod, get treat.

  2. - Top - End - #1322
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Welcome back, MoleMage! Also, welcome back, me! I locked myself out of my account for a few days.

    My entry is up, with some much needed love for the ranger with the archetype of the Unerring Marksman.
    Glad you were able to make it back in. And glad to hear that life got a little easier MoleMage.

    Spoiler: Review Time then
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    So, this is a killer, killer dip for a rogue if your campaign has the levels. You end up with the longbow/heavy crossbow, shields, archery style, and don't even lose out on sneak attack damage (you actually will do more at certain levels). I really do like that this can be used for a thrown weapon as well as a normal ranged weapon. I wouldn't mind seeing an added ability that let's you draw and throw a weapon as part of an attack to facilitate dagger thrower builds.

    Trick Shot For accuracy dies on trick shots, when do you declare you are using it? After you hit? When you make an attack? After you roll an attack, but before you know if it's a hit or not? This is an important distinction. The fact that you are using Dex to make the DC here is a little odd. I get it conceptually, but a Ranger already has a spell DC based on wisdom, so you will have to remember 2 different DCs. Not saying it's wrong, but it could be confusing at times.

    Lucky Shot - This gets into a bit of an odd situation when you have advantage where you could roll a 1 and a 2 and enter up with lower attack overall. I'm not sure about the 1->10 mechanic personally. I almost would rather see something like the the lucky trait on halflings where you get to re-roll a 1 on an attack roll.

    Superior Shot - The long ranger ability is stylistic and fitting, but ultimately may turn out useless for many people since you most people are going to be taking sharpshooter already when using this subclass.

    Perfect Shot - Same this with sharpshooter here for ignoring cover. Don't get me wrong, the 18-20 critical is pretty great especially with the bonus damage, but half of this feature will be completely useless to a ranger.

    I'll be honest, I'm not sure if you need to change the overlapping abilities between perfect shot/superior shot and sharpshooter. You are already giving more special shots and doing more damage each round with leveling up.


    Follow-up Shot - This is really great, and I could see myself using it a lot (especially with a rogue multiclass).

    Gearsplitter - I'm not sure about this one. It is probably fine, but it feels wrong to me being able to replace a thieves tool check.

    Holy Shot - This sucker is overpowered. 50 HP and based on your dex for the save? The idea of this seems off to me since it's not really a holy class in general.

    Skirmishing Shot - The movement part on this is odd, the only time this would actually be useful as it is written is when making an attack on someone else's turn. During your turn you can move whenever you want. Or is the intent on this to give extra movement?

    Spellsplitter - So, you are casting a 3rd level spell at level 3? And you can cast 4+ of them every short rest? And you can cast 2 of them per turn? This one needs to go, it is flat out to much. Way, way to much.


    Overall, I like this subclass. There are a lot of cool features to it, and it's certainly something I would want to play as a ranger. There are a few clarifying things needed, and a few balance issues on the trick shots.


  3. - Top - End - #1323
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I'm working on the level 14 ability for my Crystal Druid. It's currently this:

    Spoiler: Body Reorganized
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    Body Reorganized

    When you reach 14th level, your body is mostly made up of impossibly hard crystal lattice and you can use your perfected form to crystallize upon your enemies. You gain resistance to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage while your Reorganizing Aura is active.

    In addition, as an action you can choose one creature that is currently within range of your Reorganizing Aura. All of the power of your aura is funneled into that creature and the aura ends. The creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the creature is encased in crystal. On a success they are unaffected. While encased, the creature’s speed is reduced to zero and it is incapacitated. The creature is entombed in crystal for a minute or until the crystal tomb takes thunder or magical bludgeoning damage, whichever comes first. The crystal tomb breaks whenever it is damaged by thunder or magical bludgeoning damage, and the trapped creature falls prone.


    When a creature is entombed in crystal, should they have complete cover from spells and attacks and give AC/HP for the crystal, or is the wording OK as is?

    Thanks.


    Update: Also, I don't think I'll have time to do the grand review of every subclass, but if anyone has a specific question or ability that they need help with, I'd be happy to help.
    Last edited by RickAsWritten; 2020-09-24 at 02:22 PM.
    Spoiler: Homebrew Subclasses by RickAsWritten
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  4. - Top - End - #1324
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAsWritten View Post
    I'm working on the level 14 ability for my Crystal Druid. It's currently this:

    Spoiler: Body Reorganized
    Show
    Body Reorganized

    When you reach 14th level, your body is mostly made up of impossibly hard crystal lattice and you can use your perfected form to crystallize upon your enemies. You gain resistance to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage while your Reorganizing Aura is active.

    In addition, as an action you can choose one creature that is currently within range of your Reorganizing Aura. All of the power of your aura is funneled into that creature and the aura ends. The creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the creature is encased in crystal. On a success they are unaffected. While encased, the creature’s speed is reduced to zero and it is incapacitated. The creature is entombed in crystal for a minute or until the crystal tomb takes thunder or magical bludgeoning damage, whichever comes first. The crystal tomb breaks whenever it is damaged by thunder or magical bludgeoning damage, and the trapped creature falls prone.


    When a creature is entombed in crystal, should they have complete cover from spells and attacks and give AC/HP for the crystal, or is the wording OK as is?

    Thanks.


    Update: Also, I don't think I'll have time to do the grand review of every subclass, but if anyone has a specific question or ability that they need help with, I'd be happy to help.
    While the cost of using it is quite big, it is a very strong save or suck ability that ignores most current conditions. Can they be attacked while encased in crystals? If they can't, it can both be used as a protective effect as well as a crowd control ability, but if they can be damaged, it is very strong offensively. I would do the following to it:
    • If the target is immune to petrification, they are unaffected by it, and if they have advantage on saves against petrification, they should then have advantage against this.
    • Being draped in crystals feels more like a strength save to break from than a con save and then I would allow them to redo the save at the end of their turn.
    • I would give the crystal a set amount of health and make it vulnerable to magic bludgeoning and thunder damage, immune to psychic and poison damage and resistant to any other damage. The hit points of it could probably be equal to double your druid level or double your wisdom score or something. 20-40 sounds reasonable considering vulnerabilities and resistances. You could look at how tomb of levistus has done it, temp hp and vulnerability.


    If you have time, I would still like feedback on how to balance the level 6 ability Sorcerer Supreme of Born Perfection. As was commented and I wrote earlier, you can currently twin-spell booming blade with it every turn which is too strong. The intention of the subclass was to have it be innately focused on better meta-magic with some enchantment and bodily perfection flavor going on around it. I have three ideas of how to change that feature but not sure if either of them will feel good or be fitting enough.
    • Option A is to limit it to abjuration, enchantment, and transmutation spells as sorcerers have no damaging cantrips of those schools.
    • Option B would be to limit it to when you spend a spell slot.
    • Option C would be to just give them additional sorcery points they could only use on metamagic which is effective but boring.

    All three of them could work but not sure if I really like any of them, what do you think? That said, I probably have missed a better direction to take it in. So if anyone have a better idea, I would be happy to hear it.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2020-09-26 at 12:17 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #1325
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Some brief feedback on the entries thus far:

    Spoiler: College of Fate's Beloved
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    As someone who talks to (or more commonly, swears at) everyday objects such as TV remotes, phones, countertops, drawers, and pieces of lint, I feel like this class was made for me. It's really a thing of beauty, being able to apply your charm to inanimate objects.

    I was initially concerned about the power of Refuge, but since it shuts off the other actives until the next short rest I'll let it slide. My only other concern is that this has a lot going on for a bard subclass (which tend towards the smaller), but it isn't alone in that respect.


    Spoiler: Game Master Artificer
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    This is a really cool concept, and it looks to be fairly well done as well. I am concerned about Name of the Game: Check (Incapacitate is a really strong condition) having no usage limit other than save gives immunity. Duplicate Effort's wording is a little hard to follow as well.

    I especially like the image you tracked down to represent your subclass.


    Spoiler: Dirty Fighter Rogue
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    It kinda looks like what battlemaster would be if it were a rogue. I like how the supporting features are minor but well-in-theme to make room for the power of Tricks. Can't say much about the tricks themselves since the details aren't in yet, but I think it will work okay as long as they aren't too crazy.


    Spoiler: Luxury Domain
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    Lap of Luxury is one of the coolest spellcasting features I've seen on this contest. I love it.

    Overall, you're spot on with matching your features to your theme, and the theme itself is solid. Kudos.


    Spoiler: Born Perfection Origin
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    The idea is okay but doesn't add as much color as other sorcerer options (importantly, it doesn't complete the sentence "I'm naturally magical, because..."; instead it assumes the magic was already there and that you're really good at it).

    Some of the features work against themselves or each other (Perfect Embodiment's first effect makes the second effect completely unnecessary) and others are too strong (Sorcerer Supreme lets you at-will Twin cantrips, for example). Individually none of them is too bad, but taken together with the baseline sorcerer it's probably a little too easy to exploit the various features.


    Spoiler: Chef Fighter
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    Hah! I have to send this to my friend, she wants to do an all-chef adventure (previously assumed to be using my Chef class from the Base Class Contest). Gourmet food is perfect for the theme.

    Something about the image of a full-plate warrior throwing pies at people for 1d10 damage is just...beautiful. The only thing I'd wish for is more meal options.


    Spoiler: Circle of the Crystalline
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    Wait is the effect of Reorganizing Aura permanent? Because while that would be an incredible ability for a villain to have it would be too strong in the hands of players ("I walk past the cell doors. Now they are brittle crystal so I shatter them with my hammer.")

    Other than that, the class looks great. I feel like the concept took an extra step from the theme; a gemstone druid might be a clearer connection than a crystal druid, but then again most gemstones are crystalline in structure anyway so maybe I'm just nitpicking.


    Spoiler: Savant Sorcerer
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    This was a background for Pathfinder sorcerers in PF1E that I always felt was a solid explanation of magical powers. Seeing it written this way I still think so. All of the features seem to be on theme and balanced against the sorcerer base class, so my only complaint is that it doesn't really have any active or dynamic features until level 18. This is mostly compensated by the "learn anything from one school of magic" though.


    Spoiler: Unerring Marksman
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    Really there aren't enough ranged weapon specialists in 5e, which is kind of disappointing (Arcane Archer is the only subclass that specializes in ranged weapons, and only Fighter/Ranger/Rogue can really make them work). So this fills an obvious gap and I like that.

    Mechanically, you've fitted most of the fun into Trick Shots, which is appropriate. The other features are a little bland (basically just slightly better versions of Champion's expanded crit range), but again Trick Shots should be carrying this subclass and they are. Also, I normally don't say this for "choose from option list" type features (even my own), but I think you have a solid size list of Trick Shots already.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

    Spoiler
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    My DMsGuild content. Most of it was written with feedback from right here on the forums.
    My Patreon content. It's mostly setting development and short fiction about the adventuring party in one of my games in the same setting.

  6. - Top - End - #1326
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Thanks for the feedback! Duplicate effort may not make the final draft, definitely not as is. As I mentioned before, Check is arguably weaker than the Enchanter L2 feature.

    The pic is a hero forge mini I designed.
    Last edited by BerzerkerUnit; 2020-09-25 at 07:51 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #1327
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Thank you for the feedback, feeling a lot better about it now
    "Come play in the darkness with me."
    Thanks for the avatar, banjo1985!

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    I guess I'm a Neutral Good Human Wizard (4th Level)
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    Take the 'What D&D Character am I?" Quiz!


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  8. - Top - End - #1328
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Some brief feedback on the entries thus far:

    Spoiler: Born Perfection Origin
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    The idea is okay but doesn't add as much color as other sorcerer options (importantly, it doesn't complete the sentence "I'm naturally magical, because..."; instead it assumes the magic was already there and that you're really good at it).

    Some of the features work against themselves or each other (Perfect Embodiment's first effect makes the second effect completely unnecessary) and others are too strong (Sorcerer Supreme lets you at-will Twin cantrips, for example). Individually none of them is too bad, but taken together with the baseline sorcerer it's probably a little too easy to exploit the various features.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    I would say "I'm naturally magical, because I was such a five star baby that I naturally developed magic." which doesn't assume magic was already there but fair point of view. If people would want it to be more flavorful, I guess it could be refluffed into a demi-god or something, but that fits worse with the theme in my eyes.

    The first point of perfect embodiment frees your hand from material components while the second allows you to cast spells with material components without anyone seeing or noticing it. They are not the same thing.

    I have flung ideas on how to fix sorcerer supreme around in this thread but haven't gotten any feedback on those yet. As it is now, it can be broken.

  9. - Top - End - #1329
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Some brief feedback on the entries thus far:



    Spoiler: Chef Fighter
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    Hah! I have to send this to my friend, she wants to do an all-chef adventure (previously assumed to be using my Chef class from the Base Class Contest). Gourmet food is perfect for the theme.

    Something about the image of a full-plate warrior throwing pies at people for 1d10 damage is just...beautiful. The only thing I'd wish for is more meal options.

    I will add more meal options if I can think of them, I am certainly open to an ideas of a food or drink association that you have that I can do (although I may just make some up for the sake of more options). One of the issues that I had was that a lot of food I could think of were associated with healing.

    Also, as I was writing it, I had the picture in my mind of a fighter dual wielding carrots by the stems, spinning them around like nunchucks and beating people with them.

    Please do send it to friends, if they play it I would love to hear feedback on how it played

  10. - Top - End - #1330
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    My first every contest and I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend!

    We all strive toward excellence and my class reflects the art of learning how to be excellent in it of itself. I hope ya'll like it!

  11. - Top - End - #1331
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I have a subclass that I didn't write for the contest and that I posted in its own thread before I noticed it fit the theme of the current contest as a specialist in alchemy. Having its own thread already makes it ineligible for this contest under the current rule set (under the strictest reading at least, but let's not go sneaking into my first contest under questionable circumstances). But since I find it funny that it happens to fit the current theme and because I'm an attention whore who would enjoy one or two lines of feedback, I present for your strictly unofficial consideration: the pharmacist ranger.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-09-28 at 03:57 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #1332
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I updated Sorcerer Supreme and rewrote the flavor text and added a section on the inspiration and the intent of the class.

    I will go through and provide feedback on your subclasses later today after I am done with work.

  13. - Top - End - #1333
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    I have a subclass that I didn't write for the contest and that I posted in its own thread before I noticed it fit the theme of the current contest as a specialist in alchemy. Having its own thread already makes it ineligible for this contest under the current rule set (under the strictest reading at least, but let's not go sneaking into my first contest under questionable circumstances). But since I find it funny that it happens to fit the current theme and because I'm an attention whore who would enjoy one or two lines of feedback, I present for your strictly unofficial consideration: the pharmacist ranger.
    I'm not in charge, but I would rather see you enter than not and join the contests :) I would imagine if you delete the other thread and post it in here you should be fine. If you are worried about it, PM MoleMage though.

  14. - Top - End - #1334
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    More reviews

    And welcome, both of you, to the party. I love seeing fresh faces and new people!

    Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Exemplar
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    Skill Artistry - For clarity sake, you should mention if it's before or after the d20 roll. It appears to be like bardic inspiration, after the roll, before you know the results.

    Lend Talent - This leads to some really, really interesting interactions with a familiar if you pick one up through MI, Ritual caster, or Multiclassing. I'm not saying it is bad at all, but it's interesting. Also, what happens when you expertise to someone lower level than you or a non-levelled NPC? Do they get your proficiency bonus or something else?

    The thing that gave me pause on this was the limiter to lending out based on your intelligence modifier. I don't see a need for this really, you are already limited by the amount of expertise skills/tools that you get. It seems like that would be enough, especially since when you give it to someone else, you lose expertise yourself.

    Sustaining Presense - This doesn't seem to fit to me. I understand that you want to give a combat related skill, but how does this fit into the "I'm the best at what I do" theme? Beyond that, this is actually a pretty powerful ability. Being able to add a d6 + charisma mod to an con save is, on average, better than proficiency for the first 8 levels (maybe more if you have a good cha mod). Add in resilient Con and it's even more amazing.

    Persuasive Performance - The DC on this is actually very high for the bounded accuracy model, especially after level 11. Level 11, your DC will be a minimum of 10+8+mod = Minimum of 18 and more likely 19 or 20. That's assuming you roll less than a 10 and you don't use an artistry die. Your average with this is 11.75 + 8(expertise) + 3.5 (artistry dice average) = an average DC of 23.25
    "Additionally, if you charm at least one creature this way, you regain one of your spent artistry dice." - I'm not a huge fan of this line either. You are already getting 6 die that you get back at a short rest, you really don't need another way to get them back.

    Intellectual Agility - Oddly enough, I am less bothered by the use of the artistry dice on Dex saving throws. A rogue if supposed to be agile, so it would make sense that they are artists at it.

    So, overall I see a lot of great out of combat abilities. The in combat abilities either a passive or not all that exciting. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, since combat is only 1 of the 3 tiers of play and this subclass will do very well in the other two tiers. There are a few wordings that need to be checked and on balance ability that needs to be worked on, but it's a solid subclass overall.





    Spoiler: Wizard: School of Comprehension
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    Greater Application of Knowledge - Add half int to all attack rolls and saving throws seems like a lot. Does the added bonus of 3 applied to spell attack rolls or just weapon attack rolls? If it's just weapon, then it is likely okay wizard's aren't the best at being frontliners, so that should be fine. However, if I can add 3 to all spell attack rolls that makes things like scorching ray and cantrips significantly more powerful and it pretty broken.

    Archivist of the Arcane - This sucker feels broken to me, like really broken. Do you really want your wizard knowing Healing Word or Cure Wounds? How about bless? Conjure Animals? Technically, as a Wizard with this ability, I can learning Healing Word and then make it my signature spell, being able to cast it at will. So, here we go, infinite healing and infinite yo-yo :) The idea of learning spells that they see and being able to use them is really, really cool and effective. The problem I have is being able to add it to your spellbook and have it be a wizard spell for you forever. I think it would be a little more balanced if they had the ability to observe and learn 1 spell that they see cast, which becomes a prepared Wizard spell for them until the start of the next long rest. That way, they can learn spell outside of their class and get the effect without allowing some massive potential abuse.


    Overall, this class is balanced, but to be honest it's a little boring. Your main features are built around being able to get more spells in your spellbook, which assumes that the DM will make other wizard's spellbooks and scrolls available. If the DM doesn't make those appear, you have lost at least half of your subclass abilities. So, what's the solution here. I'm not sure the best way to go, but here are a few possible solutions.

    Since you are a Wizard of knowledge, maybe you have the ability to learn and scribe spells through observation or experimentation. Maybe over the period of an off day (or 1 day per level) you can figure out and write a spell that you don't have access to through a scroll or book. Another thing that would make sense (although I am not sure on the balance of it since I don't play wizards) is to give them more prepared spells a day. It really works well with having a very full spellbook, if you can prepare more of them.

    I would also adore seeing some sort of mystical spellbook by them. Maybe something that in unbreakable and can be summoned into hand and dismissed like the warlock pact of the blade weapon. This is a lower power ability that is active and pretty cool, but doesn't add that much power.

    Overall, I see the cheaper and faster scribing as a side bonus that you get at each level. Since you are focused on learning you just get these, and then you get a slightly less powerful active ability at each level.


  15. - Top - End - #1335
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Anyway, my two cents as a beginner class maker on the entries. Let's start by doing the first five. I'll come back for the rest later.

    Spoiler: Fate's Beloved Bard
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    Obviously a bit of a comedic take, but with a strong theme, and fun abilities. I find it hard to judge the power level of the features, but as far as I can tell it's good. The one I'm not sure about is Refuge in Audacity. The free ability to nope a fall, any and all terrain including walls or character death for free seems quite strong. Even on a full spellcaster I would prefer to see it a few levels higher. The capstone sits where it sits though, plus other colleges get quite strong abilities here as well, like a free weapon attack with every single spell. Plus the tacked on note that it stops you from using the other college abilities until your next short rests balances it out as well. Clever addition.


    Spoiler: Game Master Artificer
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    This is one of the more creative entries, and also one of the more complex ones. With the three kinds of game set it's almost like having three sub-subclasses too. Trap card feels stronger than the other two options, but not out of line per se with the features of other artificer subclasses. The ability to have the spirit scan the opponent to learn stuff about it might take some player skill to sell in a non-meta way, but not too much.


    Spoiler: Dirty Fighter Rogue
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    It's clean, well executed, easy to understand, and generally ready for print. It's not as inventive as some of the other entries, but it doesn't have to be, because the mechanics existed already. I have two minor criticisms. The first is in the name. A dirty fighter subclass while a class called fighter exists, that probably breaks an unwritten rule somewhere. It is a very descriptive name though, so I'm not sure if I would change it even if I thought of a good alternative. The second point is almost more of a critique of the battle master than of the dirty fighter. You're right that most of these maneuvers are pretty good examples of kind of dirty fighting, so what kind of a hypocrite does that make the battle master? "Oh right, when the rogue does is it's dirty fighting, but when you do it you're a [air quotes]battle master[/air quotes]. Riiiiiiiiiight. *rolls eyes* So... maybe a few more tricks that up the dirty a little more?


    Spoiler: Luxury Cleric
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    It feels a little bit like this cleric has two gimmicks: luxury/wealth being one and the other, through its spell list, being extradimensional spaces. The capstone in the end ties these two together. And I guess it is pretty luxurious to camp out in a private extradimensional space instead of on a bedroll under a tree because the entire party was too cheap for tents. If there is a mechanical problem with the class it's that extradimensional pockets tend to feature in relatively many stories about abuse of magical powers and/or game rules. So I'm not sure how to feel about a subclass designed around the idea of using them. But ignoring that angle it seems like a good build.


    Spoiler: Born Perfection Sorcerer
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    This maybe seems a bit much. At first level you get casting with no material components (and at 3rd level with somehow even less material components?), and you also gain a free charmed enemy ones per day. Even with the limitations, that's quite strong. And I try in general not to fall over level 17 or higher features, because people are casting wish by this point, so how much more can anyone break the game? But a free upgrade to 24 in your casting stat? That seems a bit much. The other origins don't get anything like that. Can this be justified by the fact that sorcerers are an eternal second fiddle to the mighty wizards? Yes it can. But compared to any class other than wizard I don't think they're quite weak enough to need this boost. Is your build thematically cool? Yes, yes it is. I already hate this sorcerer's guts just for existing with his stupid smug face.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-09-28 at 09:12 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #1336
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    I have a subclass that I didn't write for the contest and that I posted in its own thread before I noticed it fit the theme of the current contest as a specialist in alchemy. Having its own thread already makes it ineligible for this contest under the current rule set (under the strictest reading at least, but let's not go sneaking into my first contest under questionable circumstances). But since I find it funny that it happens to fit the current theme and because I'm an attention whore who would enjoy one or two lines of feedback, I present for your strictly unofficial consideration: the pharmacist ranger.
    I left a review on the thread for you. Since I'm in here, I don't see an issue with it being part of the contest since I would have left it on here if you have entered it, but I'm still not in charge

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    More reviews

    And welcome, both of you, to the party. I love seeing fresh faces and new people!

    Spoiler: Wizard: School of Comprehension
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    Greater Application of Knowledge - Add half int to all attack rolls and saving throws seems like a lot. Does the added bonus of 3 applied to spell attack rolls or just weapon attack rolls? If it's just weapon, then it is likely okay wizard's aren't the best at being frontliners, so that should be fine. However, if I can add 3 to all spell attack rolls that makes things like scorching ray and cantrips significantly more powerful and it pretty broken.

    Archivist of the Arcane - This sucker feels broken to me, like really broken. Do you really want your wizard knowing Healing Word or Cure Wounds? How about bless? Conjure Animals? Technically, as a Wizard with this ability, I can learning Healing Word and then make it my signature spell, being able to cast it at will. So, here we go, infinite healing and infinite yo-yo :) The idea of learning spells that they see and being able to use them is really, really cool and effective. The problem I have is being able to add it to your spellbook and have it be a wizard spell for you forever. I think it would be a little more balanced if they had the ability to observe and learn 1 spell that they see cast, which becomes a prepared Wizard spell for them until the start of the next long rest. That way, they can learn spell outside of their class and get the effect without allowing some massive potential abuse.


    Overall, this class is balanced, but to be honest it's a little boring. Your main features are built around being able to get more spells in your spellbook, which assumes that the DM will make other wizard's spellbooks and scrolls available. If the DM doesn't make those appear, you have lost at least half of your subclass abilities. So, what's the solution here. I'm not sure the best way to go, but here are a few possible solutions.

    Since you are a Wizard of knowledge, maybe you have the ability to learn and scribe spells through observation or experimentation. Maybe over the period of an off day (or 1 day per level) you can figure out and write a spell that you don't have access to through a scroll or book. Another thing that would make sense (although I am not sure on the balance of it since I don't play wizards) is to give them more prepared spells a day. It really works well with having a very full spellbook, if you can prepare more of them.

    I would also adore seeing some sort of mystical spellbook by them. Maybe something that in unbreakable and can be summoned into hand and dismissed like the warlock pact of the blade weapon. This is a lower power ability that is active and pretty cool, but doesn't add that much power.

    Overall, I see the cheaper and faster scribing as a side bonus that you get at each level. Since you are focused on learning you just get these, and then you get a slightly less powerful active ability at each level.

    I was also partially inspired by some Unearthed Arcana subclasses for this, mainly Inventor, Lore Master and Order of Scribes.

    Thank you so much for the warm welcome! :D

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    Well, it increases the chance of actually hitting your opponents, but not increase damage output. I have a tendency to that with my classes, but that probably comes from the sheer amount of times I rolled badly and my spells just miss or so on so I do have a bit of a hard time guaging that. You'd only be getting +3 to attack and saving rolls (not damage rolls) when your Intelligence is 22-23, so pretty far up there in level or if you're specializing over everything else (including no feats). So devoted to nothing else, you'd get +5 to attack rolls and saving throws by the time you're around Level 19 or 20. Honestly, I figured that by that point, it'd be okay given how that's kinda where you're very powerful. I might tweak it if I come up with something there

    You're a Wizard of Learning so the whole point is on that. If your DM don't make other wizards' scrolls or books appear despite knowingly having a Wizard in their game, wouldn't that be on them and their inexperience/negligance? Granted, I haven't played a Wizard so I could be talking out of my butt here. I do like the idea of learning spells via observation here. But yeah, the whole point is that above everything else, they excel at learning. And that learning is not just limited to the wizarding arts, hence why they could potentially learn some spells.

    Part of it may come from how its written, but yeah, why not have a Wizard that could Healing Word or Summon Animals? It's the culimination of being able to learn so well, to be able to learn the magic most other Wizards couldn't learn normally.

    Not playing Wizards, I just tried my best with what worked and my limited experience thus far.


    I appreciate all the feedback! :D
    Last edited by CountDVB; 2020-09-28 at 12:07 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Well, it increases the chance of actually hitting your opponents, but not increase damage output. I have a tendency to that with my classes, but that probably comes from the sheer amount of times I rolled badly and my spells just miss or so on so I do have a bit of a hard time guaging that. You'd only be getting +3 to attack and saving rolls (not damage rolls) when your Intelligence is 22-23, so pretty far up there in level or if you're specializing over everything else (including no feats). So devoted to nothing else, you'd get +5 to attack rolls and saving throws by the time you're around Level 19 or 20. Honestly, I figured that by that point, it'd be okay given how that's kinda where you're very powerful. I might tweak it if I come up with something there

    You're a Wizard of Learning so the whole point is on that. If your DM don't make other wizards' scrolls or books appear despite knowingly having a Wizard in their game, wouldn't that be on them and their inexperience/negligance? Granted, I haven't played a Wizard so I could be talking out of my butt here. I do like the idea of learning spells via observation here. But yeah, the whole point is that above everything else, they excel at learning. And that learning is not just limited to the wizarding arts, hence why they could potentially learn some spells.

    Part of it may come from how its written, but yeah, why not have a Wizard that could Healing Word or Summon Animals? It's the culimination of being able to learn so well, to be able to learn the magic most other Wizards couldn't learn normally.

    Not playing Wizards, I just tried my best with what worked and my limited experience thus far.


    I appreciate all the feedback! :D
    So, please don't take anything as criticism. I generally try to write what I am thinking about as I read a subclass and then think about ways I can break it as a min/maxer. I am, at heart, a min/maxer, I want to control the entire battlefield or kill someone in one turn, or have the ability to do something.

    You get +3 to your attack rolls and saving throws when you Int is 20 (5/2 = 2.5, you said rounded up, therefore 3). If you are playing point buy, you can have a 20 int by level 8. I'm not going to say this is horrible, but the game is balanced around bounded accuracy in that sense that even a +1 can have a significant difference. A lot of builds use 1 or 2 levels into fighter to get the archery fighting style because the +2 to hit is so incredibly amazing, so I didn't want to make it better than that. Oddly enough, I would rather see a bonus to damage than a bonus to attack rolls because it would have a less significant impact on the game.

    You are right, if you are playing this subclass (or a Wizard in general) a DM should give you access to scrolls and wizard spellbooks. However, a DM may be new or running something straight from the book, they may not think of it. All I'm saying is that making something that may not come up in the game be the core feature in a subclass can create some issues. I would instead take the guidance from the Cavalier Fighter subclass where riding is secondary and cool, but there is still lots that you get even if you can't access a horse at all.

    Wizards are already the most versitial casting class in the game. They have the biggest spell list already and get lots of prepared spells. Beyond that, they can cast all rituals without preparing them. Allowing a Wizard to be able to prepare every ritual in the game takes this to an extreme that is very powerful. Beyond this, one of the issues that I did mention was the 18th level ability, Spell Mastery. Giving anyone the ability to infinitely cast a healing spell is never a good idea even at level 18, and this would allow it. Your whole party would be going into every combat with all their hit points. Plus every time you add one of these you have yet another spell prepared. You could literally learn and prepare the entire Cleric, Bard, and Druids list each day.


    Also, the DMG specifically speaks to healing spells on Wizards.

    Dungeon Master's Guide, in the section "Creating a Spell" (p. 283):
    Make sure the spell fits with the identity of the class. Wizards and sorcerers don’t typically have access to healing spells, for example, and adding a healing spell to the wizard class list would step on the cleric’s turf.


    Like I said, I don't mind the ability to replicate. I do mind the ability to replicate and then turn it into a Wizard spell for all time. Maybe this is a good way to explain it. Magic Secrets on Bards (especially Lore Bards) is adored and you get 2 spells from another class. If you play it right, you could get the equivalent of Magic secrets every 2 days.



    Maybe others will disagree with me and feel fine with it. I'm just offering my opinion.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    So, please don't take anything as criticism. I generally try to write what I am thinking about as I read a subclass and then think about ways I can break it as a min/maxer. I am, at heart, a min/maxer, I want to control the entire battlefield or kill someone in one turn, or have the ability to do something.
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    You get +3 to your attack rolls and saving throws when you Int is 20 (5/2 = 2.5, you said rounded up, therefore 3). If you are playing point buy, you can have a 20 int by level 8. I'm not going to say this is horrible, but the game is balanced around bounded accuracy in that sense that even a +1 can have a significant difference. A lot of builds use 1 or 2 levels into fighter to get the archery fighting style because the +2 to hit is so incredibly amazing, so I didn't want to make it better than that. Oddly enough, I would rather see a bonus to damage than a bonus to attack rolls because it would have a less significant impact on the game.

    You are right, if you are playing this subclass (or a Wizard in general) a DM should give you access to scrolls and wizard spellbooks. However, a DM may be new or running something straight from the book, they may not think of it. All I'm saying is that making something that may not come up in the game be the core feature in a subclass can create some issues. I would instead take the guidance from the Cavalier Fighter subclass where riding is secondary and cool, but there is still lots that you get even if you can't access a horse at all.

    Wizards are already the most versitial casting class in the game. They have the biggest spell list already and get lots of prepared spells. Beyond that, they can cast all rituals without preparing them. Allowing a Wizard to be able to prepare every ritual in the game takes this to an extreme that is very powerful. Beyond this, one of the issues that I did mention was the 18th level ability, Spell Mastery. Giving anyone the ability to infinitely cast a healing spell is never a good idea even at level 18, and this would allow it. Your whole party would be going into every combat with all their hit points. Plus every time you add one of these you have yet another spell prepared. You could literally learn and prepare the entire Cleric, Bard, and Druids list each day.


    Also, the DMG specifically speaks to healing spells on Wizards.

    Dungeon Master's Guide, in the section "Creating a Spell" (p. 283):
    Make sure the spell fits with the identity of the class. Wizards and sorcerers don’t typically have access to healing spells, for example, and adding a healing spell to the wizard class list would step on the cleric’s turf.

    Like I said, I don't mind the ability to replicate. I do mind the ability to replicate and then turn it into a Wizard spell for all time. Maybe this is a good way to explain it. Magic Secrets on Bards (especially Lore Bards) is adored and you get 2 spells from another class. If you play it right, you could get the equivalent of Magic secrets every 2 days.


    Maybe others will disagree with me and feel fine with it. I'm just offering my opinion.
    I actually appreciate this alot! I am new so the more in-depth things are, the better since it will let me get a better understanding of how to do matters like these down the line.

    Hmm... I have a couple ways to adjust it and I'll add both to see if that works better.

    Also, regarding core feature, it's not just of the subclass, but a core of the class in general though mentioning that does provide a potential method of better defining the path for this class...

    Regarding the spells, I can see your point, but I would still like that to remain something of an option or included in some form, and not just replicating it, because then that goes against the point of the class. You haven't really learned it then. I think I have an idea on that. Plus, if Spell Mastery is the only caveat there, then that can be dealt with.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Made a pretty substantial edit to mine on the School of Comprehension

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Spoiler: College of Fate's Beloved
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    The normal way of writing it is that you add things to the ability check and not that you remove it from the DC, but on How Could You? it fits thematically with making the object listening to you.
    The DC of Hey, you're on our side, right? should maybe be your Spellsave DC + the roll. It is a bit ambiguous if it is that or your spellcasting modifier right now.
    Overall, I think it is balanced and it is a very unique direction on a subclass. I like it.


    Spoiler: Game Master
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    It Is interesting, and feels like it breaks a lot of norms of how subclasses tend to be structured which probably is fine but makes it super-hard to evaluate the balance of. It would take a lot of testing to get a better grasp on it.


    Spoiler: Dirty Fighter
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    I like the idea of a battlemaster rogue but it needs some polish. It is a bit unclear how things work. For example, the tricks say that they are part of attacks, but pocket sand is not. The Conniving Cunning is likely too much, and I would have preferred if it had more unique tricks not shared with the fighter. There is also only 7 tricks in the class but you are supposed to learn nine?


    Spoiler: Luxury Domain
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    Level 1 is a little overly filled with things. It might be too powerful but I mostly feel the level is too frontloaded. You could probably limit it to at most 3 artisan tools or so or split it up over the levels. Otherwise it is nice, it provides a lot of utility similar to the knowledge domain. I like it.


    Spoiler: Chef
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    Overall it looks good, but 5-star chef does not specify that it comes at level 18. Chicken Soup is a bit unclear and should probably state that it restores 1d20+ your wisdom (cooking utensils) modifier or something similar. I might also reduce the amount chicken soup heals. I would probably also add that you can only be affected at one type of food at a time just to make it easier to balance the powers. The subclass looks fun, is creative and would probably fun to play as well.


    Spoiler: Circle of the Crystalline
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    I get this super dark unnerving feeling of this subclass. The idea that things shift into crystals as the druid passes by is terrifying. Body Reorganized needs some work as I wrote earlier.


    Spoiler: The Savant
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    I am torn, I like the straightforward sorcerer and the class is likely on the too powerful side of sorcerer, but all the abilities lack flavour which make me find it interesting or make it appear to be a sorcerer. Nothing in the subclass relates to sorcery points nor metamagic. All of them just make spellcasting a lot better. Balance-wise, one or two of the abilities could carry a subclass on its own and neither of the abilities are situational enough to limit that. If you want to keep all the features, I would weaken them. Maybe make concentration saves harder when you concentrate at two spells at a time. That would also make it more of an interesting risk and reward choice.


    Didn't get through all of them today, will finish up tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Spoiler: Born Perfection Sorcerer
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    This maybe seems a bit much. At first level you get casting with no material components (and at 3rd level with somehow even less material components?), and you also gain a free charmed enemy ones per day. Even with the limitations, that's quite strong. And I try in general not to fall over level 17 or higher features, because people are casting wish by this point, so how much more can anyone break the game? But a free upgrade to 24 in your casting stat? That seems a bit much. The other origins don't get anything like that. Can this be justified by the fact that sorcerers are an eternal second fiddle to the mighty wizards? Yes it can. But compared to any class other than wizard I don't think they're quite weak enough to need this boost. Is your build thematically cool? Yes, yes it is. I already hate this sorcerer's guts just for existing with his stupid smug face.
    Thanks for the comment.
    A lot of other subclasses tends to get alternatives to spellfocuses, and in just this competition, one of the other subclasses gets an arcane focus they can summon without cost. I made it in comparison to the divine soul. At level 1 this one gets an alternative to arcane focuses that is hard to lose while the divine soul gets "double" the amount of spells to choose from and one additional spell known. Captivating Allure and Favored by the Gods are very similar, and while favored by the gods will generally give better chances of it happening, Captivating allure gets a rider when it does. Charmed is a rather lackluster condition in combat and it only happens if you changes the outcome of the attack or save with the feature and the other party fails a save. I, personally, would say divine soul is probably better at level 1.

    24 charisma might be too much, but at the same time, a lot of the other sorcerer sub-classes gets flight or long distance teleport at will around these levels which I would argue is way stronger. Other classes can gain expertise in the social skills, and a lot of caster subclasses gets better saves and AC. No one complains about barbarians getting 24 in str and con at lvl 20. Light clerics give enemies disadvantage against most of their damaging spells. I just have a hard time seeing +2 to spell save DC and spellattack modifier to break the game at level 18-20 for a sorcerer. I would even argue that sorcerer is the only class that might get it. But I will think about it.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2020-09-28 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I'm surprised about artisan tools! Multiple people quirked a slight brow at that, I had the initial sensation that these were just 'ribbon' proficiencies. 3 of the character's choice is perfect fine, going to go add that in.
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    I guess I'm a Neutral Good Human Wizard (4th Level)
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
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    And welcome, both of you, to the party. I love seeing fresh faces and new people!

    Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Exemplar
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    Skill Artistry - For clarity sake, you should mention if it's before or after the d20 roll. It appears to be like bardic inspiration, after the roll, before you know the results.

    Lend Talent - This leads to some really, really interesting interactions with a familiar if you pick one up through MI, Ritual caster, or Multiclassing. I'm not saying it is bad at all, but it's interesting. Also, what happens when you expertise to someone lower level than you or a non-levelled NPC? Do they get your proficiency bonus or something else?

    The thing that gave me pause on this was the limiter to lending out based on your intelligence modifier. I don't see a need for this really, you are already limited by the amount of expertise skills/tools that you get. It seems like that would be enough, especially since when you give it to someone else, you lose expertise yourself.

    Sustaining Presense - This doesn't seem to fit to me. I understand that you want to give a combat related skill, but how does this fit into the "I'm the best at what I do" theme? Beyond that, this is actually a pretty powerful ability. Being able to add a d6 + charisma mod to an con save is, on average, better than proficiency for the first 8 levels (maybe more if you have a good cha mod). Add in resilient Con and it's even more amazing.

    Persuasive Performance - The DC on this is actually very high for the bounded accuracy model, especially after level 11. Level 11, your DC will be a minimum of 10+8+mod = Minimum of 18 and more likely 19 or 20. That's assuming you roll less than a 10 and you don't use an artistry die. Your average with this is 11.75 + 8(expertise) + 3.5 (artistry dice average) = an average DC of 23.25
    "Additionally, if you charm at least one creature this way, you regain one of your spent artistry dice." - I'm not a huge fan of this line either. You are already getting 6 die that you get back at a short rest, you really don't need another way to get them back.

    Intellectual Agility - Oddly enough, I am less bothered by the use of the artistry dice on Dex saving throws. A rogue if supposed to be agile, so it would make sense that they are artists at it.

    So, overall I see a lot of great out of combat abilities. The in combat abilities either a passive or not all that exciting. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, since combat is only 1 of the 3 tiers of play and this subclass will do very well in the other two tiers. There are a few wordings that need to be checked and on balance ability that needs to be worked on, but it's a solid subclass overall.

    Thank you for the feedback and for the warm welcome! :)

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    Skill Artistry - For clarity sake, you should mention if it's before or after the d20 roll. It appears to be like bardic inspiration, after the roll, before you know the results.
    Thank you! Indeed it was the intention. Fixed now. :)

    Lend Talent - This leads to some really, really interesting interactions with a familiar if you pick one up through MI, Ritual caster, or Multiclassing. I'm not saying it is bad at all, but it's interesting. Also, what happens when you expertise to someone lower level than you or a non-levelled NPC? Do they get your proficiency bonus or something else?
    They should normally get their own proficiency bonus. Tbh, my 3.5e past still haunts me in the form of absolute certainty all the rules apply equally to both PCs and NPCs.
    I don't see any potential issues with targeting one's own familiar with Lend Talent, and it might indeed create some fun opportunities.

    The thing that gave me pause on this was the limiter to lending out based on your intelligence modifier. I don't see a need for this really, you are already limited by the amount of expertise skills/tools that you get. It seems like that would be enough, especially since when you give it to someone else, you lose expertise yourself.
    Bothers me a little too, but I hadn't come up with a more elegant limiter for the capstone which gets rid of the drawback. And, well, it's another way to enforce the character's dependence on both Intelligence and Charisma.

    Sustaining Presense - This doesn't seem to fit to me. I understand that you want to give a combat related skill, but how does this fit into the "I'm the best at what I do" theme? Beyond that, this is actually a pretty powerful ability. Being able to add a d6 + charisma mod to an con save is, on average, better than proficiency for the first 8 levels (maybe more if you have a good cha mod). Add in resilient Con and it's even more amazing.
    Actually, my intention was to preserve as much as I can of 3.5e prestige class of the same name, not just give this one combat-related abilities, though Jesse Decker (the author of Complete Adventurer 3.5e) had probably this exact goal in mind. The feature itself is pretty powerful indeed if one has artistry dice to spend: think Divine Soul Sorcerer who gets a ton of spells to choose from, but is still limited by outrageously low number of spells known. Amazing overall possibilities, but all of them require expenditure of a very limited resource.

    Persuasive Performance - The DC on this is actually very high for the bounded accuracy model, especially after level 11. Level 11, your DC will be a minimum of 10+8+mod = Minimum of 18 and more likely 19 or 20. That's assuming you roll less than a 10 and you don't use an artistry die. Your average with this is 11.75 + 8(expertise) + 3.5 (artistry dice average) = an average DC of 23.25
    Yes, the DC is bound to reach very hard-to-resist values, especially with Reliable Talent in play. The limiting factor would be relatively low power of the effect itself, though it could be used very creatively, which is a good thing, in my opinion. Perhaps the DC should be calculated as it's standard for 5e, namely 8 + expertise + relevant ability modifier? Will be still higher than the baseline for spells' DCs, but hey, it should be. :)
    "Additionally, if you charm at least one creature this way, you regain one of your spent artistry dice." - I'm not a huge fan of this line either. You are already getting 6 die that you get back at a short rest, you really don't need another way to get them back.
    Then 6 dice per just long rest probably would be better. I'm not sure, honestly. :)

    So, overall I see a lot of great out of combat abilities. The in combat abilities either a passive or not all that exciting. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, since combat is only 1 of the 3 tiers of play and this subclass will do very well in the other two tiers. There are a few wordings that need to be checked and on balance ability that needs to be worked on, but it's a solid subclass overall.
    Indeed I see this subclass as not very combat-oriented. :) Kudos to you, sir, for writing this review. Much appreciated!


    I've made some slight changes based on your review.
    Last edited by Ilerien; 2020-09-29 at 09:36 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Edea View Post
    I'm surprised about artisan tools! Multiple people quirked a slight brow at that, I had the initial sensation that these were just 'ribbon' proficiencies. 3 of the character's choice is perfect fine, going to go add that in.
    I feel it might not be too much on a power level, but it would be too much things to keep in your mind and consider. At the same time, 1-2 tool proficiencies is probably just a ribbon since it is rare that you can use them but all is a lot and would cover a lot more use cases. I would say it is about at the power-level of jack of all trades but much more complicated to get use of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Spoiler: Born Perfection Sorcerer
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    This maybe seems a bit much. At first level you get casting with no material components (and at 3rd level with somehow even less material components?), and you also gain a free charmed enemy ones per day. Even with the limitations, that's quite strong. And I try in general not to fall over level 17 or higher features, because people are casting wish by this point, so how much more can anyone break the game? But a free upgrade to 24 in your casting stat? That seems a bit much. The other origins don't get anything like that. Can this be justified by the fact that sorcerers are an eternal second fiddle to the mighty wizards? Yes it can. But compared to any class other than wizard I don't think they're quite weak enough to need this boost. Is your build thematically cool? Yes, yes it is. I already hate this sorcerer's guts just for existing with his stupid smug face.
    I thought of it some more and sort of broke the sorcerer mold to get you the 24 in charisma at level 20 to at least prevent multiclass shenanigans. That said, it might be a step to unorthodox for me but I will leave it like so for now.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2020-09-29 at 12:49 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    Overall it looks good, but 5-star chef does not specify that it comes at level 18. Chicken Soup is a bit unclear and should probably state that it restores 1d20+ your wisdom (cooking utensils) modifier or something similar. I might also reduce the amount chicken soup heals. I would probably also add that you can only be affected at one type of food at a time just to make it easier to balance the powers. The subclass looks fun, is creative and would probably fun to play as well.
    Thanks for taking a look at it.

    So, running the numbers on the Chicken Soup.

    You will get an average of 10.5 from the roll.

    Level 1-4: 10.5 + 4 + wis mod = likely average 16.5 - Only 2 meals made per long rest
    Level 5-8: 10.5 + 6 + wis mod = likely average 18.5 - 3 meals per long rest
    Level 9-12: 10.5 + 8 + wis mod = 20.5 average - 4 meals per long rest until 10, then 4 meals per short rest
    Level 13-16:10.5 + 10 + wis mod = 23.5 average - 5 meals per short rest
    Level 17-20:10.5 + 12 + wis mod = 25.5 average - 6 meals per short rest

    So, level 1-2 it will likely fully heal you. Level 3-4 there is a decent chance at it. After that, the healing is decent but not all that far from the healer feat.

    Healer Feat: 3.5 + 4 + level
    Level 1: 8.5
    Level 5: 12.5
    Level 10: 17.5
    Level 14: 21.5
    Level 17: 24.5
    Level 20: 27.5

    So, if you compare the numbers they are higher early on, but that is balanced by the fact that it takes 1 minute to eat, has to be prepared beforehand, and only refreshes on long rest. Once you get to level 10, the numbers only have a 3hp difference and eventually the healer feat actually surpasses the meals on average. The Chicken Soup still has a 1 minute eating time and needs to be prepared beforehand, even when on a short rest, and preparing this takes away the other options. Sure, the healing is more swingy but the numbers are pretty even between the two in my mind.


    Given how many meals you can make and the fact that you have to make them beforehand, I didn't think it was an issue to be able to be affected by more than one meal at once. Is there a combination you see in there that would be horrible? The long term buffs didn't seem like they would make someone absolutely amazing (I purposely avoided adding in to many +X abilities).






    Additionally, added a few more food into the subclass to give more options (Piece of Cake, Bread and Butter, Meat and Potatoes, Garlic and Onions Potatoes). If anyone has any other food idioms or foods that have a strong cultural association to something, please let me know.

  26. - Top - End - #1346
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    *Reply to my feedback*
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    *More reply to my feedback*
    All good points. I'm just noting what I noticed, but any person here has obviously thought harder about their own build than I have thought about theirs, so it may or may not add anything.

    Okay, let's get a few more mini-reviews in.

    Spoiler: Chef Fighter
    Show
    Fittingly enough I feel this subclass mostly adds flavor. The feature I think stands out as a possible balance worry is the 3-star chef feature in combination with some of the better meals, I mean 3*4*(1d10+9)~162 hp of healing for a martial at level 10 is quite a bit. (Edit: a bit less, since this is based on a secondary stat.) Then again, the subclass basically adds no extra damage, your cooking utensils attack is more or less continuously trying to catch up to what a regular weapon attack would do. So that does give it quite a bit of leeway for gaining magic. I would also count the fact that you have to prepare specific individual meals as a strong limiting factor, but I feel that's at least partly compensated for by getting to bake the meals per short rest. It's easier to predict what you'll be doing 2 hours from now than 8 hours from now. Overall the concept is a lot of fun though. It almost has a bit of a bardic vibe. EDIT: I too had completely missed that a meal takes a minute to consume. So it's all strictly out of combat (or pre-combat). That does put my mind at ease a bit further.


    Spoiler: Crystalline Druid
    Show
    This one is a bit... odd. I'm having a hard time judging it for balance. The cleric/paladin style focus that does not need to be in your hand is obviously good. Overall I don't think it really outmatches other druids. But don't pin me down on that. Thematically it's, well, a druid? That like, crystals? And like, what? It's a bit odd. Odd is good.


    Spoiler: Savant Sorcerer
    Show
    The concept here initially looks sort of similar to that of the born perfection sorcerer, with a bit more focus on being mentally special and a bit less on being very punchable special. Reading further it shifts more to a sorcerer who's very gifted at one specific school. I'm happy that Arcane Progidy doesn't raise your number of spells known. That would have made my OP sense tingle. It's still a very good feature that opens up possibilities for different builds, but different builds are kind of a good thing. I'm a bit worried that the further features make the subclass almost too specialized. If I can have two concentration spells as one at the same time within my school and do an extra damage die or affect an extra creature with those spells, I'm going to try to stay inside that school as much as possible. I'm not sure what I would add though to make this subclass less specialized, or if I'd even want that. By the way, does Inspired Prodigy use a spell slot? Maybe clarify that in the text. If it does it feels like a good feature, but not on the safe side of OP for a capstone. If it doesn't cost a slot I see some abuse possibilities, doubling your 9th level spells per day. (Edit: this text needed some cleaning up.)


    Spoiler: Unerring Marksman Ranger
    Show
    Awwright, a ranger. I like rangers, although every time I look at their mechanics I can't for the life of me say why. The Sniping ability seems... strong. I know there's no ability modifier here, but 2d6 at level 3 and 4d6 by level 11 is pretty big. And this is on top of the second attack at level 5 (I assume) and Hunter's Mark. And it goes to the first hit on that round, so you only need one hit for all of it to apply, and that makes it perfect for stacking with sharpshooter. Although I'm not the best with damage math in general, so I might be overreacting, but it feels strong. Superior Accuracy is great. This is the one that ties the build together. It builds on existing mechanics for balance, but with so much of a new twist and work put into new effects that it comes out entirely fresh. Lucky Shot is unusual in that the 7th level ability of a ranger is usually a minor defensive upgrade, but otherwise falls within a normal power range for a feature. The level 11 feature is well designed, and might even be able to fly without using the 7th level as a step up to this one. 15th level is again typically not an offensive upgrade, but again the power level seems fine or even a bit weak for a capstone. I would honestly kind of love it if the 15th level feature called back and added something to the trick shots from level 3 instead. Overall the subclass seems maybe a little too focused on attack power (even though that is concept-wise very reasonable for an archer build), which makes it a tad difficult to balance because the power of the class starts partly depending on how hard your DM starts targeting the back line. The only feature that in itself felt out of the ordinary for me was Sniping. I'm not quite sure what to think of that one.


    I'll be back for the rest.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-10-02 at 07:22 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #1347
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    All good points. I'm just noting what I noticed, but any person here has obviously thought harder about their own build than I have thought about theirs, so it may or may not add anything.
    =) very true!
    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Thanks for taking a look at it.
    *snip math*
    So, if you compare the numbers they are higher early on, but that is balanced by the fact that it takes 1 minute to eat, has to be prepared beforehand, and only refreshes on long rest. Once you get to level 10, the numbers only have a 3hp difference and eventually the healer feat actually surpasses the meals on average. The Chicken Soup still has a 1 minute eating time and needs to be prepared beforehand, even when on a short rest, and preparing this takes away the other options. Sure, the healing is more swingy but the numbers are pretty even between the two in my mind.

    Given how many meals you can make and the fact that you have to make them beforehand, I didn't think it was an issue to be able to be affected by more than one meal at once. Is there a combination you see in there that would be horrible? The long term buffs didn't seem like they would make someone absolutely amazing (I purposely avoided adding in to many +X abilities).

    Additionally, added a few more food into the subclass to give more options (Piece of Cake, Bread and Butter, Meat and Potatoes, Garlic and Onions Potatoes). If anyone has any other food idioms or foods that have a strong cultural association to something, please let me know.
    Oh I missed it took a minute to eat, then it is most likely fine.

    It wasn't any specific combination that I could see, but more that it limited the design space and could require a lot of upkeep which 5e tries to avoid. That said, it can probably left as it is without anything breaking.

    The only ones I can think of is stone soup (or soup on a nail in swedish), big cheese, bun in the oven, and gravy train.



    The remaining feedback!
    Spoiler: Unerring Marksman
    Show

    Overall, I like it. It is probably focusing a little to hard on just improving ranged damage though and level 3 and level 7 is both containing more than they do for most rangers. I would move the extended crit to only be 19-20 at level 11 as you have another feature that already builds into crits with sniping. Most other crit build classes and sub-classes only gain one of the two parts, not both of them. The class feels like a mix between a marksman and a trickshot and it might be enough to push one of those sides instead of both.

    Also, superior accuracy should be at third not first level.


    Spoiler: Exemplar
    Show

    I haven't seen the 3.5 class but this one looks nice. I like the skill-focus and it feels generally fair in how it is done. I would probably put a limited number of uses on the lend per short or long rest just to keep it as more of a choice you need to think over. The only complaint I have is that some of the features feels a bit more wordy and longer than they would need to be. Otherwise it is nice!


    Spoiler: School of Comprehension
    Show

    Wow! I didn't expect it to be this interesting. Instinctual Insight should probably use a reaction instead of bonus action as it will likely be done outside of your turn. It is also a bit unclear how it works with cantrips as cantrips normally are not scribed and as 0-level spell would currently not have a time or cost to scribe. Greater understanding and Arcane appreciation are both strong but probably fine. I would probably set a hard limit for arcane appreciation instead of let it increase with levels. 10 extra spells would be good enough in my mind.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2020-09-30 at 02:28 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #1348
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    The pharmacist ranger has officially moved into the contest thread now. My thanks to MoleMage, Phhase and nickl_2000 for allowing/helping/motivating this move. So I'm emptying out the thread that has never existed now. This is my reply to/overly long musing about nickl_2000's feedback.

    Spoiler: Text about the pharmacist ranger and stuff
    Show
    Thanks for replying, good feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Revelation:
    Small copy and paste typo
    I think I actually caught that while you were typing. That was still two days after making that post, but a funny coincidence nonetheless.

    In the rare case you make it to level 20, you may also want to change the Foe Slayer ability to use Int if you make that choice.
    Good one. It says something about a capstone ability if I just don't think about it like that.

    Expanded Spell List - There are some odd choices here in my opinion, nothing is horrible but I am not sure how Comprehend Languages, Daeth Ward, or Telekensis come in. Are those based on standard potions?
    The logic is that they're all eligible for Brew Concoction, and I tried to pick spells that could be seen as some sort of a pharmaceutical effect, something a potion could reasonably magic into a person. So Death Ward is in the general healing/not dying area, for instance. Gaseous Form is a little strange, but it's still a modification of your biology, if a rather extreme one, and it has a general chemistry kind of vibe.

    Some levels contained more non-ranger spells that work with this concept than others though. Spell level 2 is brilliant with aside from Enhance Ability and Enlarge/Reduce Alter Self, Spider Climb, Invisibility, See Invisibility and a few more that could pass in a pinch. I could make a whole bonus spell list out of just level 2 spells. Alternatives for Telekinesis at spell level 5 would include Far Step (under normal conditions a bonus action), Greater Restoration (100gp cost, which is a lot to spend on a spell you might not even need to use), Raise Dead, Banishing Smite, Circle of Power, Destructive Wave and Mislead, so not the best pool of picks. For level 1 False Life is kind of the same thing as Heroism, Expeditious Retreat is not that great when cast as an action, but there are some options like Disguise Self, Gift of Alacrity, Frost Fingers and Armor of Agathys that may or may not fit slightly better thematically than Comprehend Languages. What I like about Comprehend Languages is that it is unlike pretty much any other spell on this list or the actual ranger list, that was probably the argument that got it across the line. See it as a smart drug... It also kind of works with the concept of an Intelligence based caster in general.

    (Level 1 also happens to be the spell level that probably contains the most useful spells on the actual normal ranger list. Between Hunter's Mark, Goodberry, Absorb Elements, Cure Wounds, Zephyr Strike and more I feel like it isn't that bad if the extra spells are a little lackluster at that point, as long as level 2 and 3 offer some good options.)

    Brew Concoction - This is actually really, really power of a skill when interacting with the right party. Giving hunter's mark to a Fighter is absolutely crazy (I've seen in happen with a Spell Storing Ring on an EK fighter). I am not saying that this is a bad thing, just something you have to keep in mind. Even more so when you can give Guardian of Nature to someone. I am glad that you limited this to Ranger Spells only, since multiclass could cause some nasty, nasty combinations. Also, I'm glad you covered material components.
    Hunter's Mark was inelligible in my mind, since the spell describes it as targeting the target creature. I agree though that this is probably not something everyone will automatically read the same way. I should probably add something to that effect.

    "(Hunter's Mark is a spell placed on the target creature. You could brew Hunter's Mark into a concoction, but you would have to get the mark's target to drink it, and you would be unable to move the spell to another target.)"

    Something like that. Hunter's Mark does rely on your own concentration though. It's definitely a bit of an edge case in terms of who the spell is on and how it works.

    I'm actually okay with Guardian of Nature I think. It's a fourth level spell (available at ranger level 13 at the earliest), it normally takes a bonus action to cast and it's concentration. There are definitely ways to make it more powerful by giving it to another character, but I don't feel it goes too far outside the scope of what a spell is allowed to do at that point in the game.

    Those are far from the only two spells with interesting options of course, but I do feel like Hunter's Mark is probably the worst one.

    Chemical Defense - 2 resistances feels like to much to me.
    Thanks. I wasn't sure about this. In combination with Brew Concoction and Coated Weapons already being reasonably strong, even after I change them I should probably bring this one down. What do you think would work best, one resistance or immunity to the poisoned condition?

    Coated Weapons - woo, this is also a lot more damage. A two weapons fighter style with hunter's mark will be doing 3d6 + 3d6 (this ability) + 3d6(hunter's mark) + 2*dex. That's a substantial increase in damage, especially if you can pull in spells correctly. I think the better way to do this is that is requires some action/bonus action to apply the poison and have it only last 1 minute at a time. This allows the damage still, but limits the use of it to be more active.
    Right, Hunter's Mark may well push that over the top. Most official ranger subclasses get some form of "not quite a third attack" here, but I find it difficult to judge how often those extra attacks are expected to really come into play.

    I actually like the idea of this taking a bonus action, even just every single round. That way it competes with applying/moving Hunter's Mark and from level 15 on with drinking a concoction. (If the Improved Delivery feature stays the way it is.) For ranged attackers it also competes with hiding as a bonus action from level 14 onwards. But since those builds probably have sharpshooter at this point they're already using their hiding bonus action to get +10 damage, so I'm kind of fine with those not stacking.

    Another alternative I had considered is giving this subclass the eldritch knight/valor bard style ability to cast a cantrip and use an attack in the same action. That would require adding cantrips though, and I'm already dealing with feature bloat. Another option would be some sort of a bomb/Molotov cocktail/acid throwing ability, giving you an extra ranged (20/60 or less, maybe just a flat 20 range) attack whenever you take the attack action. The advantage of that option is that it doesn't stack with dual weapon fighting, it gives everyone the same extra damage. It may or may not count as a weapon attack for Hunter's Mark. On the one hand the extra attacks other subclasses get count as extra attacks as well. On the other hand they don't get an extra attack every round... Maybe make the thrown attack cost a bonus action? Give it damage comparable to a lvl1-4 cantrip, no ability bonus added, that would work out to something like 2d10+1d8+2*5=25.5 damage without hunter's mark or +2d6=32.5 with for a two handed strength build (except that that build would have polearm master at least, so +1d4 for 28 and 35 damage assuming the thrown attack doesn't cost a bonus action) and 3d6+1d8+2*5=25 without and +3d6=35.5 with hunter's mark for a dual weapon dex build, versus roughly 4d10+5=27 for a 17th level wizard, the number a martial kind of has to beat.

    I'm going to have to do more thinking on this one. Maybe do some more calculations.

    Overall, this is a great concept. It gives cool abilities and a reason for someone to take Ranger past 6 levels. I really like that you can be a team player and give others your spells. Check out a few of the balance issues that I mentioned and you could very quickly take this from a good subclass into an amazing subclass.
    Thanks again! Very motivating. Good feedback is good. The separate feedback on the different features is also nice.


    (I have not made changes to the class based on this feedback yet, but I intend to do a round of revisions somewhere before voting starts.)
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-09-30 at 03:12 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #1349
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    I haven't seen the 3.5 class but this one looks nice. I like the skill-focus and it feels generally fair in how it is done. I would probably put a limited number of uses on the lend per short or long rest just to keep it as more of a choice you need to think over. The only complaint I have is that some of the features feels a bit more wordy and longer than they would need to be. Otherwise it is nice!
    Thanks for the feedback! :)
    Exemplar in 3.5e is 10-level prestige class one can enter no earlier than the 11th level, so if one wants to use it full progression, one has to dedicate all remaining levels to Exemplar (barring epic levels).
    The class features are:
    1. Skill Artistry: choose a skill in which you have at least 13 ranks, gain +4 competence bonus to all checks involving it. One additional skill (with 13+ ranks) may be chosen at 4th, 7th and 10th levels.
    Rogue's Expertise feature is just too good not to use it in place of another choice a player has to make and keep track of. Had to invent artistry dice to make it more 5e-ish, and a flat bonus on top of Expertise looks too powerful for my taste.
    1. Skill Mastery: choose Exemplar level + Int modifier skills, now you can take 10 while using them even under pressure.
    Doesn't feel like applicable to 5e because of the lack of "take 10" mechanic. And rogue has Reliable Talent which is arguably the 5e analog already.
    2. Lend Talent: accept a penalty no higher than your Exemplar level to a skill you have skill artistry in, allies withing 30ft get half that penalty as in the form of competence bonus to this skill checks. The effect ends if an ally moves out of range. At 8th level the bonus becomes equal to the accepted penalty.
    Nerfed to just one target, but allowed an affected creature to move out of range without losing the effect: I think, it makes a lot of additional out-of-combat applications possible, and the subclass is clearly focused on out-of-combat activity.
    3. Bonus feat from a specific list, and another one at 6th and 9th levels.
    Ignored quietly, 5e feats are too powerful to give them for free.
    4. Sustaining Presense: bonus to Fortitude saves equal to your Charisma modifier.
    Again, a flat bonus is boring, and why not use the same artistry dice pool?
    5. Persuasive Performance: spend a minute to entertain onlookers with a skill you have skill artistry in, treat the skill check as a Diplomacy check to influence their attitude towards you.
    I hate 3.5e Diplomacy rules with a passion, and I actually used The Giant's fix instead of it every time I DMed a 3.5e game. So, the closest stock condition from 5e would be charmed.
    8. Intellectual Agility: bonus to Reflex saves and Initiative checks equal to your Intelligence modifier.
    Same as Sustaining Presense, but should be more powerful as 13th level subclass feature. So, the same mechanic as the lower-level feature, additional flat bonus to initiative (which is a 3rd level feature for Swashbuckler, so no big deal), and an entirely made up bonus to SA damage just to give one explicitly offensive feature.
    10. Perfect Self: same as monk's capstone, you become native outsider and gain damage reduction against nonmagical weapons.
    Scrapped, monk's Perfect Self in 5e is its own beast entirely. Instead, I thought up some improvements to Lend Talent to replace the 8th-level improvement the original gets. Moreso, it's kind of common in 5e for a capstone to improve some low-level feature.

    I agree some of the features' descriptions are too long. The reasons are: my innate tendency to produce complex and elaborate sentenses, the inclusion of a bit of flavor text from the original prestige class' description into each class feature and the fact that some of them are actually separate abilities packed into one class feature so the subclass feature table doesn't become an unholy mess.
    I thought of limiting Lend Talent uses per rest, but it would become another variable a player has to keep track of. Might be reasonable to use artistry dice somehow: like "Roll one of your remaining artistry dice. If the value rolled is 4 or more, regain this die immediately. You can't use Lend Talent if you have no artistry dice left.", but, tbh, it feels factitious.
    Last edited by Ilerien; 2020-09-30 at 07:53 AM.
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  30. - Top - End - #1350
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Hi Guys, i've just added my subclass, The Sidekick, to the contest!

    Feel free to feedback!

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