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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    So the Pilferer is up. I think it could use a power boost, but I'd like a second/third/nth opinion.

    Feels good to be posting here on purpose.
    My Homebrew (Free to use, don't even bother asking. PM me if you do, though; I'd love to hear stories).

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    So the Pilferer is up. I think it could use a power boost, but I'd like a second/third/nth opinion.

    Feels good to be posting here on purpose.
    Already commented on it.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Master Hand is up! I'm happy to be back in the swing of things...
    • Yes, SSB. My girls got a Switch for Christmas, what can you do?
    • I like the idea that you could have your mage hand reload dual wielding pair of hand crossbows. It's not necessary, but fun to have exist.
    • I tried to word this so that ANY patron can collect the Pact of the Glove, and that the patron can choose other pacts that aren't Pact of the Glove.
    • Those who do pick up the pact of the Glove will be able to do the bonus action attack 3 levels earlier, and will have double the range with it the hand.
    • The expanded spell list is based on general telekinetic abilities.
    • I liked throwing in the option to become a slightly different Ranged monk. I wanted to throw in a Hundred-Handed-One reference somehow... if you have an idea, please let me know.
    • Also, a better 4th level spell in lieu of Arcane Eye would be appreciated.
    Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!

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    ... does this stuff just come naturally to you? Do you even have to try anymore xD
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    Already commented on it.
    Prompt :)

    I made some adjustments, clarifications, and corrections.

    Frisk is now limited to information you can tell by touch, i.e., you would know they have a dry old human hand, not the Hand of Vecna.

    No changes to Sticky Fingers or "Borrow" Weapon.

    Hijack Attunement is a little more defined, but I'm considering making it just work if it's attuned to someone else.

    Steal Life is now always on, but can't heal you past half your total.
    My Homebrew (Free to use, don't even bother asking. PM me if you do, though; I'd love to hear stories).

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  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats
    edit: Updooted. Grasping hands is gone. Snatching hands is gained at 6th level and costs 1 ki to activate. Ki cost to activate is removed at 11th level. One Big Punch doesn't cost ki and can be used 1/short rest, no longer interferes with Spectral Hands abilities.
    Updoot 2: Added the ki cost and spectral hands limitations of One Big Punch back in. Made it summon two big ol' hands instead of one.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    So, some quick critiques:

    - Oath of the sacred fist is actually better at punching than monks at low levels. The +1 bonus to AC while not using a shield seems better for two-handing than UAS. The later abilities, however, seem very overspecialised on grappling to the point of letting you down if grappling is difficult, impossible or inadvisable.
    I was comparing damage not to monks, but to other paladins. They sacrifice 2h damage output (1d10/2d6) or 1AC (compared to sword and board) in exchange for bonus action grapple and the ability to smite-grapple. This is also why they can't make unarmed attacks with their flurry equivalent and why their strikes do not scale (as paladin already has attack scaling in the base class). I might dial it down to 1d6, but then I think that this would fall too far behind other paladins until level 15 lets you get a bonus action Improved Divine Smite.

    I went and modified the +1 AC (no longer works while you wield a weapon OR use a shield). Improved Divine Grasp now allows you to make Athletics checks against your target's AC to deal the damage from Divine Grasp/Improved Divine Grasp, but they are not grappled.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2019-01-17 at 05:11 PM.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I'm excited for the new contest, a bit of inspiration struck me early this time. Soon, I'll be posting my arcane tradition: The Gauntleteer, after a bit of polish. Before that, though, I'd love to talk a bit about the other submissions thus far, because all of them seem super good, and it would be a darn crime not to review it. Besides, who doesn't like a little feedback?

    Spoiler: Oath of the Sacred Fist
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    I like the almost ascetic flavor of the tenets, and I think that the flavor gives just enough of a nod towards the monk without ever stepping on the monk's toes. The oath spells seem lackluster to me, and for the most part don't add much to the flavor for me, unfortunately. I would imagine this is in part that you've discovered a difficult theme to fit spells from, but I still find myself disappointed by the options. Also, I do find it odd that Unarmed Combat gives proficiency in Athletics only on grapple. I might suggest opening that up to shove attempts as well, although I don't think a blanket Athletics proficiency would be too powerful either. Smite-grapple sounds cool to me, and probably shores up the damage weakness of most grapple-builds. The wording for Improved Divine Grasp could use some tinkering, in my opinion. Towards the end it becomes hard to follow. You could replace the "the damage from Improved Divine Smite" with just 1d8 radiant damage, I think, since it never scales or changes and would reduce wordiness and page-searching. I'm also confused on the meaning of "use Divine Grasp" in the second-to-last sentence there. Does that mean grappling the creature or smiting it? If the former, what benefit does this confer if the creature is not under the grappled condition? If the latter, I suggest revising it to simply say using Divine Smite as opposed to referring to another feature that then refers you to Divine Smite. The second part of Improved Divine Grasp also does not have any portion specifying when you can use the Athletics check against AC. Can you do this as an action? Can you do it in place of another attack as an unarmed strike? I'm left with several questions about this feature. Overall, I love the flavor of the oath, and it seems very nearly perfectly polished. I can definitely see myself playing a medieval-style monk-turned-knight putting a demon in a choke hold and searing its neck with divine radiance spilling forth from his hands like molten gold.


    Spoiler: Way of the Ghost Punch
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    Fluff-wise, I greatly appreciate the pun, and I appreciate the story this creates. The subclass clearly lays out what differs these monks from other monks, gives them a specific theme and direction, and gives a backbone of a backstory through the bond with a ghost. I have very little complaints with the Spectral Hands feature. Kudos on the language, especially for Snatching Hands. That's some fancy footwork of the English and D&D languages. Ghost Gloves sounds like a cool feature, but I think it's probably worth pointing out two problems with this feature that could severely hamper its usefulness. First, I can't think of very many glove or gauntlet magic items, so the likelihood of this coming into play without the DM handpicking items for players or adding homebrew items (both of which, I personally do frequently, but for other games, it) will probably end up low. Second, 5e was based largely on the concept that a party doesn't need magical items to complete tasks and magic items are only ever an additional bonus. However, this ability keys solely off of the monk receiving a magic item. This means that the feature is really only as useful as the DM allows it to be. I would personally consider adding something else into the feature to offer some other, more consistent bonus, even if it's not big or even combat-related, but I wouldn't call it a dealbreaker. One Big Punch seems appropriately balanced for 17th level, although it seems more like two big punches if anything


    Spoiler: College of the Luchador
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    Hm, yes I've seen bardic grapple builds. This one. This one looks like the Extremely CorrectTM way to do it. I like the mask as an arcane focus. I'm always wary of sub/classes that key off of craftable (and, more importantly, loseable) items, but hey, luchador. Third level seems just a tad too busy. Also, does the unarmored defense/martial arts/athletics & acrobatics proficiency have anything to do with the mask? Or are they just there under the mask feature? Do I only get these bonuses while wearing the mask? As for Trash Talking, "ability being used" mechanically refers to nothing in particular, so I would recommend either removing this vestigial phrase or rewording. I also find myself confused at the ability, which decreases the save DC, making it easier for the save to be passed - essentially a bonus to a creature's saving throw - which doesn't correlate with sapping opponents' resolve and focus. Mythical Wrestler is cool, although I might reword it slightly. The feature says it doesn't cost a bonus action or reaction, so does it cost an action? Or is no action required? Overall, you have what I find a very strong base, but the overall feel is that you had a lot of ideas and features that you wanted to use and ended up squeezing them all into the one subclass. I would suggest a bit of trimming and polishing, but otherwise you have yourself a solid work, sir.


    Spoiler: Variant Multiclass: Monk
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    I, uh... I'm not sure how to go about reviewing this; it's not really my area of knowledge. I like the spells you added in an attempt to achieve a monk flavor of spellcasting, and, of course, you've hit the theme dead on. Using the d3 as a martial arts die seems like a negligible and difficult differentiation from a d4. If I were to have a player use this, I would probably bump it up to a d4 for the sake of ease and have the damage increase at 11th level. As far as I can tell, this is good work. (I think?) Either way, you have my respect for tackling such a task.


    I'll review the rest later when I get some time, but with a glancing overview, the Pilferer sticks out to me as thematically interesting, and certainly an intriguing take on the theme.
    Last edited by Icecaster; 2019-01-17 at 11:37 PM. Reason: Adding spoilers
    Oh, hi

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Yeah, I was way more proud than anyone has a right to be with that subclass's dumb name.

    re: Ghost gloves. Ghost punchers also get bonus action Helping Hands and ki-less Snatching Hands at the same level. It's designed to be one of those tacked-on situational ribbon that's useless except when it's not. Just looks like a core feature since it takes a high word count to finagle how to work it. Fits the ridiculous theme of the brew too well to cut though.

    ... Two Big Punches just doesn't have that ring to it...
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post

    Hm, yes I've seen bardic grapple builds. This one. This one looks like the Extremely CorrectTM way to do it. I like the mask as an arcane focus. I'm always wary of sub/classes that key off of craftable (and, more importantly, loseable) items, but hey, luchador. Third level seems just a tad too busy. Also, does the unarmored defense/martial arts/athletics & acrobatics proficiency have anything to do with the mask? Or are they just there under the mask feature? Do I only get these bonuses while wearing the mask? As for Trash Talking, "ability being used" mechanically refers to nothing in particular, so I would recommend either removing this vestigial phrase or rewording. I also find myself confused at the ability, which decreases the save DC, making it easier for the save to be passed - essentially a bonus to a creature's saving throw - which doesn't correlate with sapping opponents' resolve and focus. Mythical Wrestler is cool, although I might reword it slightly. The feature says it doesn't cost a bonus action or reaction, so does it cost an action? Or is no action required? Overall, you have what I find a very strong base, but the overall feel is that you had a lot of ideas and features that you wanted to use and ended up squeezing them all into the one subclass. I would suggest a bit of trimming and polishing, but otherwise you have yourself a solid work, sir.

    Hey, thanks for looking it over and giving feedback! I will look it all over and see if I can clear some things up and polish it up some more. I agree about keying off craftable items, but what is a Luchador without his mask? I may re-write it to make the mask a bardic focus only and then you also get the other abilities.

    For the bardic inspiration idea I wanted the idea to be that by trash talking you were able to sap the persons confidence and therefore reduce the effectiveness of a spell being cast. So, you reduce the DC of the spell being cast. This has a very important distinction from boosting a persons save. That distinction is for area effect spells, if I reduce the DC of a fireball, everyone in it gets a better chance of a save. I still may re-work it and replace the concept some.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    ... trash talking...
    I think this is something that is at first glance really similar to cutting words, but when you stop and think about it you realize it`s a completely different ability mechanically (albeit with similar fluff) It`s less versatile, but more effective in the situations it comes in to play (reducing the chance for the spell to happen altogether (as opposed to doing the same for an attack, which takes no resources), or giving everyone in a AoE a better chance at half damage (rather than reducing the damage a bit)). I think it`s a great take on the bard`s 3rd level `use inspiration for not-inspiring`ability.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    re: Ghost gloves. Ghost punchers also get bonus action Helping Hands and ki-less Snatching Hands at the same level.
    Ohh, I completely missed that, my apologies.

    ... Two Big Punches just doesn't have that ring to it...
    Haha, definitely not, I was just being cheeky.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Hey, thanks for looking it over and giving feedback!
    A pleasure to do so!

    For the bardic inspiration idea I wanted the idea to be that by trash talking you were able to sap the persons confidence and therefore reduce the effectiveness of a spell being cast. So, you reduce the DC of the spell being cast. This has a very important distinction from boosting a persons save. That distinction is for area effect spells, if I reduce the DC of a fireball, everyone in it gets a better chance of a save. I still may re-work it and replace the concept some.
    Now that you explain it, the feature makes much more sense. A little bit of tweaking with wording and whatnot to make that flavor aspect a tad bit clearer would be a good idea in my opinion, but mechanics-wise the feature looks fine to me.
    Oh, hi

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post
    Haha, definitely not, I was just being cheeky.
    Well yeah, but now you said it you`re right; it doesn't make sense since I changed it to summon TWO big fists!

    One-Two Punchers? Fat-Ghost-Fist Technique? Giant Spooky Hands?
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cats View Post
    I think this is something that is at first glance really similar to cutting words, but when you stop and think about it you realize it`s a completely different ability mechanically (albeit with similar fluff) It`s less versatile, but more effective in the situations it comes in to play (reducing the chance for the spell to happen altogether (as opposed to doing the same for an attack, which takes no resources), or giving everyone in a AoE a better chance at half damage (rather than reducing the damage a bit)). I think it`s a great take on the bard`s 3rd level `use inspiration for not-inspiring`ability.
    Actually one thing I really like about the ability is that it encourages teamwork. It encourages a teammate to use their reaction to identify the spell, so you can choose when a good time to use it is.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post
    I'm excited for the new contest, a bit of inspiration struck me early this time. Soon, I'll be posting my arcane tradition: The Gauntleteer, after a bit of polish. Before that, though, I'd love to talk a bit about the other submissions thus far, because all of them seem super good, and it would be a darn crime not to review it. Besides, who doesn't like a little feedback?

    Spoiler: Oath of the Sacred Fist
    Show
    I like the almost ascetic flavor of the tenets, and I think that the flavor gives just enough of a nod towards the monk without ever stepping on the monk's toes. The oath spells seem lackluster to me, and for the most part don't add much to the flavor for me, unfortunately. I would imagine this is in part that you've discovered a difficult theme to fit spells from, but I still find myself disappointed by the options. Also, I do find it odd that Unarmed Combat gives proficiency in Athletics only on grapple. I might suggest opening that up to shove attempts as well, although I don't think a blanket Athletics proficiency would be too powerful either. Smite-grapple sounds cool to me, and probably shores up the damage weakness of most grapple-builds. The wording for Improved Divine Grasp could use some tinkering, in my opinion. Towards the end it becomes hard to follow. You could replace the "the damage from Improved Divine Smite" with just 1d8 radiant damage, I think, since it never scales or changes and would reduce wordiness and page-searching. I'm also confused on the meaning of "use Divine Grasp" in the second-to-last sentence there. Does that mean grappling the creature or smiting it? If the former, what benefit does this confer if the creature is not under the grappled condition? If the latter, I suggest revising it to simply say using Divine Smite as opposed to referring to another feature that then refers you to Divine Smite. The second part of Improved Divine Grasp also does not have any portion specifying when you can use the Athletics check against AC. Can you do this as an action? Can you do it in place of another attack as an unarmed strike? I'm left with several questions about this feature. Overall, I love the flavor of the oath, and it seems very nearly perfectly polished. I can definitely see myself playing a medieval-style monk-turned-knight putting a demon in a choke hold and searing its neck with divine radiance spilling forth from his hands like molten gold.
    I fixed the wording of Improved Divine Grasp and made Unarmed Combat give proficiency in all Athletics checks. Essentially the second part is a way to get your BA grapples in on creatures too large or too strong/nimble to otherwise grapple. You don't lock them in place, but you do still channel the energy from (Improved) Divine Smite through your hand into them.

    The spells are, for the moment, tentative. I'm pretty sold on Hold Person, Hold Monster, Enlarge/Reduce, and Freedom of Movement as they all make sense for a grappler build. Protection from Energy, Death Ward, and Dispel Evil and Good fit with a theme of mystic defenses, but the class ended up only having one Channel Divinity that fit that theme, so maybe I should duck away from it more. Bless, Guiding Bolt, and Clairvoyance were outright filler, and I am going to go back in and find more suitable options for those (possibly from XGtA). I'm open to suggestions, too.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post

    Hm, yes I've seen bardic grapple builds. This one. This one looks like the Extremely CorrectTM way to do it. I like the mask as an arcane focus. I'm always wary of sub/classes that key off of craftable (and, more importantly, loseable) items, but hey, luchador. Third level seems just a tad too busy. Also, does the unarmored defense/martial arts/athletics & acrobatics proficiency have anything to do with the mask? Or are they just there under the mask feature? Do I only get these bonuses while wearing the mask? As for Trash Talking, "ability being used" mechanically refers to nothing in particular, so I would recommend either removing this vestigial phrase or rewording. I also find myself confused at the ability, which decreases the save DC, making it easier for the save to be passed - essentially a bonus to a creature's saving throw - which doesn't correlate with sapping opponents' resolve and focus. Mythical Wrestler is cool, although I might reword it slightly. The feature says it doesn't cost a bonus action or reaction, so does it cost an action? Or is no action required? Overall, you have what I find a very strong base, but the overall feel is that you had a lot of ideas and features that you wanted to use and ended up squeezing them all into the one subclass. I would suggest a bit of trimming and polishing, but otherwise you have yourself a solid work, sir.
    • Level 3: renamed and touched up to reduce it in power and make it less dependent on the mask.
    • Level 3 bardic inspiration: renamed and refluffed to explain it a little better. Also made it only work for spells, not abilities (sorry no more dragon fire)
    • Level 6: Added in the extra damage here and kept the pin ability as it was
    • Level 14: reworded the viscous mockery ability to be simpler and easier (hopefully) to read. Made the enlarge ability a bonus action only usable when wearing the mask.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Continued reviews:

    Spoiler: College of the Fist
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    Fluff is nice. It's compelling, and paints a picture for how this specific subclass of bard fits in with other subclasses of bard in both similarity and difference. Unarmored defense is understandable given the apparent power-from-the-body theme, and the idea of a bard unlocking that secret and shedding his weak leather armor to become a real brawler at level 3 sounds pretty cool. As for Force of Personality, I'm confused by the progression of the unarmed strikes and where these levels came from. To me, it seems like it would be easier to bump the damage to a d6 at 6th and a d8 at 14th to keep with the subclass features, and the progression would still stay behind monk. I'm just not sure what those specific levels mean, and it would give the player something to keep track of in their subclass at levels they're not supposed to be getting things from their subclass. The bardic inspiration psychic damage is interesting, and really adds to the semi-mysticism of using your personality and body together in synergy. Extra attack is appropriate, and Inspired Blow is a nice capstone that allows for some serious multitasking in being a bard and laying the smackdown. All in all, the subclass is simple, yet effective. The mechanics seem reasonably balanced, and my only complaint (which is obviously pretty minor) is about the progression of unarmed strikes, which I could be persuaded to accept with a little reasoning.


    Spoiler: Pilferer
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    Frisk is interesting. I suppose much of the usefulness of the feature is determined by the DM, but since it's obviously a fairly fluff-based feature - besides the disadvantage on Perception - that's alright. It does set up the subclass nicely for thievery, though, which is good. There's a huge bonus to Sleight of Hand at 3rd level, but since there's not a lot of combat focus, that seems fine to me. It gives the mechanics for a rogue that would rather steal than fight. I can't remember the specific rules on disarming somebody, but it seems fine given that you have to forgo holding anything else useful. "Borrow" Weapon is cool. I'm hesitant with all of this weapon-taking, and I would imagine an unprepared/inexperienced DM could get frustrated quickly, although it doesn't seem inherently overpowered. Hijack Attunement is very flavorful and not too much, characteristic of a 13th level rogue feature. Steal Life is even more flavorful, and I really like it, but it seems a little much to have at will. Since the large majority of damage rogues are dealing at this level comes from sneak attack, having to use an unarmed strike isnít a huge handicap on it, giving the rogue a massive amount of survivability, especially since the feature doesnít require hitting a humanoid (allowing for punching something like a rabbit and gaining back a large chunk of hp) or even an animate being (allowing for, in the loosest possible interpretation, punching something like a tree to gain a large chunk of hp). I might reduce its usage to once or twice if kept as is., and possibly restrict the amount of hit points you can gain from a target, such as a maximum amount equal to the maximum hit points of the target, where it retains its usefulness in combat but canít be outright abused.


    Spoiler: Master Hand Patron
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    Haha, I always love a good breaking of the fourth wall. Expanding the mind into a limb seems vague and conceptual in the fluff, but it becomes pretty clear once you start reading the features. I like the general theme of summoning and moving things in the spells, and I think it sets up the rest of the subclass nicely. Spectral hand sounds like fun and allows for some antics without being gamebreaking in any big way. As for flying fist, boy does this create a cool image. In my mind Iím imagining a spectral, almost cartoonish hand walking on its middle and index fingers like a person and then flicking people, and Iím also seeing the thumb people from spy kids. I donít have mage handís limitations on me at the moment, but I would be wary of people attempting to fly by having their spectral hand carry them, which would obviously be potent for a cantrip. Bigbyís hand is appropriate, I can see where you get the other 10th level stuff from. For 14th level, things look fine, but does the three-quarters cover from Interposing Hand last for the duration of the casting of mage hand? The first and third bullets have a time on them, but that one does not. Overall, I think the idea is intriguing while still being open to interpretation, and the mechanics are well-balanced. The theme feels a tad loose in areas, but this could probably be fixed with even a few extra sentences of fluff to tie it all together in a nice bow.


    I hope my reviews have been helpful, every single subclass was a pleasure to read and think about, and I look forward to seeing the future submissions. Now, shortly, Iíll be posting my first version of the Gauntleteer. It is, of course, open to any and all feedback and criticism; I donít do wizards very often. My main concern is that it may deal too much damage. I wanted an upgrade over fire bolt, but I don't want it to be too good or lead to a worse problem than eldritch blast poses.
    Last edited by Icecaster; 2019-01-18 at 05:04 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post
    I, uh... I'm not sure how to go about reviewing this; it's not really my area of knowledge.
    Yeah, it's harder than it looks to make these. You'd think it's just assigning class features from monk to each class, but no, you also have to trawl the spell list and also the different subclass levels don't play nice-nice with the different features. Monk, of course, is even worse because it has abilities stuck together with no rhyme or reason, an artefact of the old 3.5 monk or possibly before.

    I like the spells you added in an attempt to achieve a monk flavor of spellcasting,
    Yeah, this one is a lot easier than some of the others might be.

    and, of course, you've hit the theme dead on.
    This is a relief, because looking back at the earlier pages of the chat thread, all the commentary on the previous VMCs was "But rogues and their tools don't fit with a theme of technology! Warlocks and their otherworldly patrons don't fit with an otherworldly theme! BARDS DON'T FIT WITH A SUPPORT THEME!"

    Using the d3 as a martial arts die seems like a negligible and difficult differentiation from a d4. If I were to have a player use this, I would probably bump it up to a d4 for the sake of ease and have the damage increase at 11th level.
    That's fair. I usually try to make the features worse than the class that grants them, but actually martial arts is probably not amazingly strong on its own, well maybe? But then at first level, cleric VMC monk would be basically entirely strictly better than monk - and nearly the same for warlock VMC monk.

    I think I'll keep it as d3 for balance reasons at low levels.

    As far as I can tell, this is good work. (I think?) Either way, you have my respect for tackling such a task.
    Thanks! Like I said, it's not as easy as you might think.




    Any more critique for VMC monk? I could use it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post
    As for Force of Personality, I'm confused by the progression of the unarmed strikes and where these levels came from. To me, it seems like it would be easier to bump the damage to a d6 at 6th and a d8 at 14th to keep with the subclass features, and the progression would still stay behind monk. I'm just not sure what those specific levels mean, and it would give the player something to keep track of in their subclass at levels they're not supposed to be getting things from their subclass.
    Monks upgrade their MA die at 5th level, but then after that it's every 6 levels (11 and 17). Level 9 and 15 keeps that 6-level progression speed. It also makes the curve of your attacks much more regular than it would be if it upgraded at 6 and 14 - that would give you 3 levels of 1d4, 8 of 1d6, and 7 of 1d8, whereas this progression gives you 6 levels of each.

    And yeah, it's weird that it's at levels you're not getting any subclass features, but bard subclass stuff is split up kind of wierdly.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by theVoidWatches View Post
    Monks upgrade their MA die at 5th level, but then after that it's every 6 levels (11 and 17). Level 9 and 15 keeps that 6-level progression speed. It also makes the curve of your attacks much more regular than it would be if it upgraded at 6 and 14 - that would give you 3 levels of 1d4, 8 of 1d6, and 7 of 1d8, whereas this progression gives you 6 levels of each.

    And yeah, it's weird that it's at levels you're not getting any subclass features, but bard subclass stuff is split up kind of wierdly.
    Fair enough, as long as it gets the job done, and now that I see the pattern I can respect the progression. I just couldn't figure out what on earth the correlation was at first, heh
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    A couple of review comments. Spell suggestions for the Oath of the Sacred Fist (as per my custom, I've restricted myself to PHB spells):

    • 1st - Absorb Elements, Burning Hands, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Longstrider, and Sanctuary all feel like better options to me than what you have. Bless is okay if you really like it.
    • 2nd - I think I like Calm Emotions and Spider Climb as options here over Enlarge/Reduce, but what you have isn't bad. Enhance Ability and Misty Step might also be all right.
    • 3rd - Blink, Gaseous Form, Haste, Tongues, and Water Walk all feel "monk-like" to me.
    • 4th - I think Fire Shield over Death Ward would be pretty good, but your selections are solid.
    • 5th - I'd put Bigby's Hand or Flame Strike ahead of Dispel Evil and Good. Hold Monster is nice.


    Some overlap with the VMC: Monk suggestions, I think? I didn't look at those very closely.

    And for Icecaster's Gauntleteer, because you reviewed everyone else's to this point:

    I'd change the name to Telemancy, honestly, though maybe leave "gauntleteer" in the fluff as a nickname.

    I think you can cut the wording on Novice Telemancy and also fold Extended Strike into this feature.

    Strengthened Telemancy--I'd shift the wording a bit, probably the second sentence to this: "You make an Intelligence (Athletics) check for the attempt and are considered proficient with checks made by this feature."

    Sweeping Strikes seems decent enough to me.

    Hand of Power works, I guess, but it feels a little sad to duplicate something the base wizard can already kind of do. There are a few riders attached that make it better, sure, but it still doesn't feel all that impressive.

    Extended Strike should probably be down to a 1d6ish, because of the force damage, lack of disadvantage in melee, and automatic addition of spellcasting modifier. It's real strong as-is.

    Overall, it has a clear, cohesive theme and makes sense as an addition to the game. I think I'd like to see a bit "more" in terms of its versatility, though I honestly couldn't tell you what that should look like. I think the power budget on the features is about where it should be, and it has more utility than at first glance with its extras on mage hand.

    Honestly, though, the submissions look pretty good this time around. (Much better than I was expecting, if I'm being honest.)
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2019-01-18 at 10:59 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    And for Icecaster's Gauntleteer, because you reviewed everyone else's to this point:

    I'd change the name to Telemancy, honestly, though maybe leave "gauntleteer" in the fluff as a nickname.
    That's a good idea. My original idea was labeled gauntleteer in my mind, so I just left it once I named it. School of Telemancy is more appropriate for how things shook out.

    I think you can cut the wording on Novice Telemancy and also fold Extended Strike into this feature.
    The wording could be improved, I agree. I'll use the same wording Improved Minor Illusion uses, but I'll replace learning minor illusion with extended strike and mage hand, then add in mage hand control as a bonus action.

    Strengthened Telemancy--I'd shift the wording a bit, probably the second sentence to this: "You make an Intelligence (Athletics) check for the attempt and are considered proficient with checks made by this feature."
    And that is what my mind was grasping for but couldn't for the life of it think of.

    Hand of Power works, I guess, but it feels a little sad to duplicate something the base wizard can already kind of do. There are a few riders attached that make it better, sure, but it still doesn't feel all that impressive.
    Yeah, this was basically what I settled on out of several mediocre ideas, second place being a once-per-rest mega punch as an action. I'll probably change it, but I wanted to get my submission in promptly since I was excited about things.

    EDIT: (again) I've replaced it now with Spacial Mastery, allowing a teleport of 10 feet before each attack in extended strike.

    Extended Strike should probably be down to a 1d6ish, because of the force damage, lack of disadvantage in melee, and automatic addition of spellcasting modifier. It's real strong as-is.
    That's fair. The cantrip was originally designed to be the centerpiece of the subclass, being exclusive to only that, but I'll tone it back now that there are other themes at play.

    EDIT: Oh boy, I really should've run the math on that when I made it

    Overall, it has a clear, cohesive theme and makes sense as an addition to the game. I think I'd like to see a bit "more" in terms of its versatility, though I honestly couldn't tell you what that should look like. I think the power budget on the features is about where it should be, and it has more utility than at first glance with its extras on mage hand.
    Thank you for the review!
    Last edited by Icecaster; 2019-01-19 at 10:48 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Strengthened Telemancy--I'd shift the wording a bit, probably the second sentence to this: "You make an Intelligence (Athletics) check for the attempt and are considered proficient with checks made by this feature."
    Since variant skill checks are an optional rule, could also just say "Make an intelligence check that you are proficient in" to keep it solid with tables that don't use that rule. I mean, the variant rule is in the PHB so not hard to look up, but Intelligence (Athletics) could get some blank stares from people who aren't aware of it.

    edit: changed the suggested wording like, five times.

    Honestly, though, the submissions look pretty good this time around. (Much better than I was expecting, if I'm being honest.)
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I agree that all the submissions this time are really good. Part of it is probably 'cause we've been thinking about the theme since its introduction. I know I've certainly had the ideas for all but the 17th level ability on the Bar Brawler rolling around in my head since then.

    I love the mechanics and theming of the Oath of the Sacred Fist, and there's just something goofy about the whole Way of the Ghost Punch that I like.
    Also, I'm noticing a bit of an odd trend going on here. Three bard colleges? Three? Huh. They all look like they're turning out pretty well so far too. The College of Fraternity in particular could do some nasty things with a three level dip in sorcerer for a twinned, high fived Dragon's Breath or something similar.


    Anyways, it's all looking pretty good, guys, keep it up.
    Last edited by SleeplessWriter; 2019-01-21 at 11:37 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Can't believe I forgot about Feather Fall and Jump. I adjusted many of the oath spells for Sacred Fist (keeping Protection from Energy as the now sole mystic defense spell). I also fixed Divine Grasp to allow smiting on any grapple instead of just the bonus grapple (this rewards Sacred Fists for spending more of their attacks restraining foes without being a damage boost since they must give up unarmed damage to use it).
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Can't believe I forgot about Feather Fall and Jump. I adjusted many of the oath spells for Sacred Fist (keeping Protection from Energy as the now sole mystic defense spell). I also fixed Divine Grasp to allow smiting on any grapple instead of just the bonus grapple (this rewards Sacred Fists for spending more of their attacks restraining foes without being a damage boost since they must give up unarmed damage to use it).
    While you're paying attention, let me say that I think my favorite part of your submission is the tenets. It's sometimes difficult for me to come up with those to justify different oaths, but I think you did an admirable job distinguishing it from the existing ones.

    (I do like the update of an old prestige class, too.)
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    Just did a quick edit to the College of the Fist to make it clear than you still get your Strength modifier to damage with your unarmed strikes, and that it only ranks up with your bard levels, not when you hit level 9 and 15 generally.

    Having thought on potential monk-multiclass issues a little, I've decided it's not a huge problem. Sure, a single level of monk can let you go down to 2 stats to worry about instead of 3 (CoF leaves you with Strength for your unarmed strikes, but you want Charisma for spells and AC and Dex for AC still - taking 1 level of Monk lets you used Dex to attack and forget about Strength), but you still need to be MAD enough to do that multiclass in the first place (even if it's easier to have a 13 Wis than a decent Strength for attacking). From the other direction, 3 levels of Bard can let you add 1d6 psychic damage to strikes a couple times a day (or a couple times a short rest if you go all the way to 5), but Monks don't multiclass too well and are better off going deeper into Monk for more Ki.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Wow, time really got away from me there. Sorry I didn't give feedback sooner, but here are some brief comments.

    Monk: Way of the Ghost Punch I honestly didn't expect to see a monk in this contest since they already involve hands, but I should have been prepared for the more hands monk. All in all I like the direction you took here and all the abilities look pretty good, though more ki-cost intensive than anything other than probably four elements (which is fine because unlike four elements, everything is individually inexpensive).

    Bard: College of the Luchador Beautiful. Just...beautiful. It would be nice to see some way to deal damage during a grapple before level 14, but with expertise on grapple at level 3 that might be too strong.

    VMC Monk: This is well put together, and I feel like it fits the theme better than previous VMC (though Bard was pretty close). I don't agree with the decision to use a 1d3 for unarmed strike, mostly because 5e tends to use only the "standard" dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%). I actually can't think of anything else in 5e that uses a d3, though I'm sure there's a table or monster somewhere proving me wrong.

    Bardic College of the Fist I think the class is balanced, though it is a little bland compared to the expanded bard options. This fits right in with Lore and Valor though, leaving the main focus for the bard on their spells.

    Rogue: Pilferer I like it in theory, but Disarm isn't a general action, so you might want to add rules for disarming someone explicitly onto this subclass. Likewise, Hijack Attunement is a little too generally defined (maybe tie it to stick fingers?).

    Master Hand Patron: Another one I honestly didn't expect. All of the abilities look good. Flying Fist should probably specify what sort of attack you make (I am assuming Charisma).

    School of Telemancy: I like what you've done here, but I feel like you drifted away from the theme as you wrote it. I'd've liked to have seen more gauntlet-themed features.

    Rogue: Bar Brawler: Oooh, cheese wheel. Overall a good class and I appreciate the inclusion of character quotes. Your formatting does leave it unclear which abilities require ki points. It seems like it's just the level 3 abilities (Escape the Chaos, Provoke the Patrons, Take a Swipe at 'em), but it could be read as all of them. Maybe put the ki costs in each ability description?

    College of Fraternity Chug, chug, chug! I think it's pretty well done. Tool Proficiencies are generally valued lower than skill proficiencies (except thieves tools). I would limit this to "another set of artisan's tools" instead. I'd also like an expanded use of Bardic Inspiration at level 3 (every other bard class gets something to do with BI at level 3).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icecaster View Post
    As for flying fist, boy does this create a cool image. In my mind Iím imagining a spectral, almost cartoonish hand walking on its middle and index fingers like a person and then flicking people, and Iím also seeing the thumb people from spy kids. I donít have mage handís limitations on me at the moment, but I would be wary of people attempting to fly by having their spectral hand carry them, which would obviously be potent for a cantrip. Bigbyís hand is appropriate, I can see where you get the other 10th level stuff from. For 14th level, things look fine, but does the three-quarters cover from Interposing Hand last for the duration of the casting of mage hand? The first and third bullets have a time on them, but that one does not. Overall, I think the idea is intriguing while still being open to interpretation, and the mechanics are well-balanced. The theme feels a tad loose in areas, but this could probably be fixed with even a few extra sentences of fluff to tie it all together in a nice bow
    You can't fly with it, as it still is capped at carrying things 10lbs or lower. I've made it a bit more specific, and I think pushing the size increase to the 14th level will help with that.

    That being said, those people who watch the first Critical Role campaign will likely want to also perform the Scalan's flying gnome trick, but you can always remind them that can only be done with Bigby's Hand... just like in CR.

    The Interposing hand feature would continue to provide cover for the duration, but only from a single target. I've updating that wording so it's more straightforward so it's not a flat +2/+5 AC from everything.

    Added some fluff as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Master Hand Patron: Another one I honestly didn't expect. All of the abilities look good. Flying Fist should probably specify what sort of attack you make (I am assuming Charisma).
    That's a good point. Fixed. I also noted on both it and the pact boon, as well as added proficiency information.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    VMC Monk: This is well put together, and I feel like it fits the theme better than previous VMC (though Bard was pretty close). I don't agree with the decision to use a 1d3 for unarmed strike, mostly because 5e tends to use only the "standard" dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%). I actually can't think of anything else in 5e that uses a d3, though I'm sure there's a table or monster somewhere proving me wrong.
    So, I've changed it so that it now just deals 1 damage when it would deal d3 before - my instinct is that this won't be much different, won't involve awkward dice, and stops VMC monk being stronger than just straight-up monk at first level while keeping the extra attack, which you either use to get an extra small hit in or for a second chance at sneak attack or whatever. It's a point of damage, so not much difference I'd think.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I never came up with anything better, so I submitted what I did. I'm not completely happy with it (too punchy), but I wanted it to be really distinct from the Amonkhet Strength Domain and felt I needed to move in the direction of the contest's theme.
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