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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Alright, in accordance with feedback from MOG and Vogie, I did another pass at the Omen druid. Omens now consume spell slots and are much simpler (having a universal effect of boosting/penalizing dice rolls, plus an easily recorded secondary effect specific to each omen). Fatecaster got reworked (now always allows the spellcasting, with the spell slot consumption being shared between Omen and spell, but at reduced value). Omensight unchanged. Omen Twister now reduces the effect of the omen if you use it.

    I'm considering allowing the Druid to use their reaction to negate a Weal omen bonus (without consuming the charge), in a mirror of Woe allowing the druid to use their reaction to force an omen penalty. Thoughts?

    I'll do review for half of the posted subclasses tomorrow (Tuesday), and half Wednesday, by post order. 11 entries other than my own is too much for one sitting.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

    My dmsguild content. Most of it was written with feedback from right here on the forums.

  2. - Top - End - #392
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Y'all, I really wanted to do a Leprechaun Patron but I think we generally have too many warlock patrons in these competitions as it stands. Therefore, behold my Destiny Domain! Instead of just being luck-based, why not name your fate?

    I'm pretty pleased with it overall, though any feedback on the "timing" / use counts of various abilities is certainly up for discussion. Also not sure if the 2nd and 6th abilities should both be CDs, though to me it (obviously) feels like they should.
    DM's Guild Work

    5e Homebrew: The Circle of Progress, a druid circle about becoming a transformer - Winner of 5e Subclass Contest 1 - "It's Technical"

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Feedback time!


    Spoiler: Rogue: Lucky Scoundrel
    Show

    • I like the idea of trading sneak attack damage for a bonus.
    • Self-Made Luck almost makes me want to just skip luck points. The average value for a d6 where you can reroll ones and twos is ~4.2. For an extra ~0.7 damage per die on my sneak attack, I would definitely consider giving up the accuracy boost, unless my DM had a habit of throwing things at the upper end of bounded AC at me. This seems like it is intended to make up for lost dice in a small way, maybe a conditional requirement to ensure it doesn't benefit the no-luck-point Scoundrel?
    • Luck of a Traveler is a good ribbon.
    • Fool's Luck could stand to be stronger on the rogue damage end in my opinion. I'd have to see it in play, though. The extra bonus for Luck Points should be fine.



    Spoiler: Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck
    Show

    • First of all, putting the dumb in dumb luck gives you extra credit right there.
    • It's odd that Fortuitous Strike isn't a rage feature, as other barbarians usually get one at level 3. Otherwise it's fine (in rage, this barbarian is not competing with Frenzy's extra attack or Bear's resist all or Wolf's ally advantage, but it makes up for it by not requiring rage, IMO).
    • Impact Calibration: Fun little ribbon. I might swap its position with Bumbling Path as 10 is the usual barbarian ribbon level.
    • Bumbling Path: Nothing really to comment on. It fits, other than being at a level when barbarians usually get a ribbon instead of a combat feature.
    • Percussive Maintenance: Nice little buff to Impact Calibration.
    • Fortunate Footing: Honestly this feels a little weak, compared to Ranger's Land's Stride for example.



    Spoiler: Paladin Oath of Fortune
    Show

    • I like your Tenets. Having done a paladin last session I know how hard it can be to carve out a niche that's distinct from the existing oaths and I think you did a good job of that here.
    • Pass Without Trace, Major Image, and Greater Invisibility are a little odd to my mind, but I can understand them. The rest are right on theme.
    • Both Channel Divinities are on the stronger side, but are within the expected power level. This is good, I've seen paladins who routinely forgot they had Channel Divinity because their options didn't feel strong enough.
    • Fortune's Favored: neat little pickup. Cantrips aren't hard to come by but getting one still feels good.
    • Lucky Aura: This is perhaps too strong. Consider the interactions with the party's rogue, for example (now there's no way to lock out sneak attack). I would change it to allowing affected allies to ignore disadvantage for that reason alone. But beyond that, most forms of disadvantage are attached to, and often are the primary drawback of, conditions such as Frightened. This basically allows you to ignore the biggest combat penalty of a wide variety of conditions, when in comparison other auras allow ignoring a single condition (though they get all effects not just disadvantage).
    • Kismet is also pretty strong as it pushes against the bounded accuracy model of 5e.
    • Perfect Luck: It's a paladin transformation. They're all strong, and this one is too.



    Overall, I think this Oath is a little too strong. No feature individually is too strong, but they are all at the upper end of power expectations for their individual feature level, and taken altogether the subclass doesn't have ups and downs, just ups.


    Spoiler: Fate Sorcery
    Show

    • Critical Hit refresh is a way better mechanic than Wild Magic has.
    • AC based on Charisma is already a good feature, even if it is limited to 10+, but giving Disadvantage on all attack rolls against you is too strong. I would just say "you can use Charisma instead of Dexterity to calculate your Armor Class when you are not wearing armor".
    • Recycled Luck's wording is hard to follow. I think I understand how it works though, and it seems fine (though putting an ally with Evasion in the middle of a bunch of enemies and then using Careful Magic would allow you to do some interesting things like casting Fireball at 5th (half damage), then 4th (half damage), then 3rd (normal save) level from a single 5th level starting slot, turning what would be 10d6 into 5d6+4.5d6+8d6. The loss of action economy helps make up for this).
    • Misfortune Feedback: I assume the spells Bane and Hellish Rebuke are cast at their lowest possible spell slot (1st level?).
    • Chosen Outcome: Is this automatic or does the sorcerer choose whether to use it? If I fireball an enemy as a Reaction, do my allies also have disadvantage on their saves?



    Overall I like it. It mixes up the game economy though, so its performance will be highly dependent on how close to guidelines it's played at.


    Spoiler: Warlock: Fatekeeper Patron
    Show

    • Expanded spell list mostly looks go, though Staggering Smite and Contagion are a little odd to me.
    • Destiny's Curse is highly likely to do nothing. Consider that most combat lasts maybe 3 rounds. By my math, it only has a ~46% chance of doing anything at all assuming the target needs to make 4 d20 checks per round over a 3 round combat. In exploration and social situations, it is even less likely, as those often resolve in just one or two checks. I'd either add another effect or allow it to be used as a reaction when a 20 comes up once per rest instead of requiring it to be used ahead of time.
    • Fortune's Blessing is a lot more reliable. Attack rolls are pretty easy to predict, and saving throws aren't that much harder. I also like that you can use it right before dropping a big AoE to protect your allies from the effect.
    • Fate's Servant: This adds a rider to Destiny's Curse that makes it reliable, but it comes 9 levels after the fact.
    • Doom's Verdict: A good feature. Only problem is that it would get considerably stronger with each additional party member you add, which makes it hard to decide the balance without an expected party size.



    Spoiler: Ranger Longshot Conclave
    Show

    • Implausible Critical is an odd mechanic but I like it. It does a little bit more than expanded critical.
    • I feel like Capsize should do something beneficial only on one side of the coin. Prone is detrimental to your ranged attacks as a Longshot, but it is still beneficial overall, allowing your melee allies to beat them up and providing the same penalty to attack rolls that blinded gives.
    • Unsettling Movement: Basically Drunken Master's Kip Up, Barbarian's Danger Sense, and Deflect Arrows all as one feature? I would dial this back to a pick-one feature a la Hunter Conclave's special attacks. Alternatively, you could spread it out more, so that you get one at 7, one at 11, and one at 15.
    • Shifting Fate is a good way to play with Advantage that still feels like a tier upgrade. I have no complaints here that aren't the ranger base class's fault.
    • Gambit: It all looks good here. The 3-heads benefit is really nice but with only a 1/8 chance per combat it will feel special when it happens.


    I remember you had posted saying you were working this Conclave to work with a version of ranger which you had made, so I'll remind you that the rules require that any homebrew base classes be linked from the submission (and allowed by the original creator but when using your own I think it can be assumed). I've been letting it slide for classes using the UA Revised Ranger, since strictly speaking that isn't homebrew, but unless you add a link I (and probably others) are going to work on the assumption that this is for either the base ranger or the UA Revised Ranger.


    I haven't forgotten the rest of you. Come back around this time tomorrow and check for another post getting the other 6 classes so far.
    Also, we have just under a week left in the contest, and we're sitting at 13 subclasses in this luck-themed contest.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2019-03-19 at 02:31 PM.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

    My dmsguild content. Most of it was written with feedback from right here on the forums.

  4. - Top - End - #394
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Feedback time!
    Spoiler: Rogue: Lucky Scoundrel
    Show

    • I like the idea of trading sneak attack damage for a bonus.
    • Self-Made Luck almost makes me want to just skip luck points. The average value for a d6 where you can reroll ones and twos is ~4.2. For an extra ~0.7 damage per die on my sneak attack, I would definitely consider giving up the accuracy boost, unless my DM had a habit of throwing things at the upper end of bounded AC at me. This seems like it is intended to make up for lost dice in a small way, maybe a conditional requirement to ensure it doesn't benefit the no-luck-point Scoundrel?
    • Luck of a Traveler is a good ribbon.
    • Fool's Luck could stand to be stronger on the rogue damage end in my opinion. I'd have to see it in play, though. The extra bonus for Luck Points should be fine.

    Self-Made Luck is supposed to help make up for the decreased damage of giving people Luck Points, yeah. I can make it only apply while you're granting Luck Points, which ought to help.

    The biggest bonus from Fool's Luck, IMO, is that it isn't limited to the same conditions as Sneak Attack for when it can work. But you're right that it's still a major loss of damage - maybe if it's a +2 damage bonus instead? That would kind of mean that instead of losing a die of Sneak Attack for each Luck Point your grant, the damage of that die goes down to 2, which feels like it matches up with Self-Made Luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    Various Reflections
    Spoiler: Lucky Scoundrel
    Show
    Luck points seems odd. If your allies don't use their reactions to consume the luck points, your Sneak Attacks are gimped. You also write that you can't grant more luck equal than your charisma modifier twice, so that can be streamlined
    Luck of a Traveller is a strange name for that feature. It's not really luck related, just based on being well-travelled, and adding the phrase "you know what I'm saying" after every 5 words seems like an odd downside.
    Gimping your sneak attack to help your allies is kind of... the point? It's the central mechanic of the class.

    You can't grant more luck than your Cha at once, and you can't grant more than that to a single person at all. It's not redundant, because you don't HAVE to grant your Cha in points at once - you can give someone 3 points one round, and then another 2 points the next round (assuming your bonus is +5) but you can't give them 3 points and then another 3.

    It is an odd name for the feature, I admit. The idea is that you're lucky enough to be able to guess what people are saying, and get your meaning across. Refluffing it might help it make more sense.

    Anyway, I reworded some stuff and improved the flavor text some.
    Last edited by theVoidWatches; 2019-03-19 at 03:35 PM.
    Hi, you can call me Void. I prefer she/her or they/them pronouns, please. Yes, "they" is a singular pronoun. I write a superhero webserial called Paternum - check it out!



    PEACH My 5e Homebrew, including...

    Yet Another Warlock Rewrite (on GiantITP) Playtested Once!

    Lycanthrope Base Class (on GiantITP) Contest Winner!

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    Inspiration Domain (On GiantITP) In Playtest!

    Skinwalker Ranger Subclass (on GiantITP) Silver Medalist!

  5. - Top - End - #395
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post

    Spoiler: Fate Sorcery
    Show

    • Critical Hit refresh is a way better mechanic than Wild Magic has.
    • AC based on Charisma is already a good feature, even if it is limited to 10+, but giving Disadvantage on all attack rolls against you is too strong. I would just say "you can use Charisma instead of Dexterity to calculate your Armor Class when you are not wearing armor".
    • Recycled Luck's wording is hard to follow. I think I understand how it works though, and it seems fine (though putting an ally with Evasion in the middle of a bunch of enemies and then using Careful Magic would allow you to do some interesting things like casting Fireball at 5th (half damage), then 4th (half damage), then 3rd (normal save) level from a single 5th level starting slot, turning what would be 10d6 into 5d6+4.5d6+8d6. The loss of action economy helps make up for this).
    • Misfortune Feedback: I assume the spells Bane and Hellish Rebuke are cast at their lowest possible spell slot (1st level?).
    • Chosen Outcome: Is this automatic or does the sorcerer choose whether to use it? If I fireball an enemy as a Reaction, do my allies also have disadvantage on their saves?



    Overall I like it. It mixes up the game economy though, so its performance will be highly dependent on how close to guidelines it's played at.

    I'm really glad you like it!

    On the Charisma-AC, some numbers:

    An enemy with a +3 bonus to hit against:

    13 AC: 55%
    13 AC with Disadvantage: 30.25%
    15: AC: 45%
    15 AC with Disadvantage: 20.25%
    20 AC (Heavy Armor + Shield): 20%

    Now an enemy with +8 bonus to hit against:

    13 AC: 80%
    13 AC with Disadvantage: 64%
    15: AC: 70%
    15 AC with Disadvantage: 49%
    20 AC (Heavy Armor + Shield): 45%

    So you make a good point. I do still like the Disadvantage to hit, as the idea is that you can force an enemy to hit you by using Twist of Fate, which can activate Misfortune Feedback as an expensive way of casting out of turn.

    I might change it to 8 + Charisma in AC, though, as this starts to become *slightly* better than Mage Armor with a +2 Charisma Bonus. It'd also give the feel of "oh crap, my AC is low", while still having better survivability than anyone with Mage Armor.

    There's a rule somewhere (not 100% sure exactly what page) that says that spells that are cast without a spell slot are always cast at their lowest possible level, which is why I didn't clarify what level Bane and Hellish Rebuke are cast at.

    That's a valid point on Chosen Outcome. I'll make it so that you can choose, which is kind of an obvious decision, considering the feature's title!
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  6. - Top - End - #396
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Sure, I'll try to hand out some feedback on things.

    Spoiler: Rogue: Lucky Scoundrel
    Show
    Honestly? Not sure I have much to say here. I think it's a little complicated, but I don't have any concrete ideas for simplifying, and it offers a unique and thematic niche. I would offer additional scaling for Better Lucky Than Good (d8 at 13th and d10 at 17th), and I think you forgot a "not proficient" in Luck of the Traveller, but otherwise it seems solid. If I were changing anything, I'd rework Fool's Luck, but nothing comes to mind for other options.


    Spoiler: Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck
    Show
    Love the concept. I agree with flipping Bumbling Path to 6 (it isn't that strong, but Fortuitous Strike increases as well), but it does feel a bit weak at 14. Fortunate Footing could be a little better, is really what I'm saying (but don't overload it with features).


    Spoiler: Paladin Oath of Fortune
    Show
    Spell list seems a little strange in places. Bane / Bless and Aid are obvious; Mislead is really good, and Dispel Good and Evil and Greater Invisibility seem all right. Other suggestions here: I'd definitely lose Pass without Trace (probably for Mirror Image, though there are other options like Augury, Blur, and Crown of Madness). 3rd level options could be Bestow / Remove Curse, Blink, or Hypnotic Pattern, as I'm not a fan of either of those there. As 4th-level spells, I like Confusion, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Hallucinatory Terrain, Secret Chest...maybe Guardian of Faith or Locate Creature, even.

    I don't like Shield of Fortune given its ability to stack with other AC increases, but Lucky Break is a good option.

    Lucky Aura seems on the stronger side, as it potentially negates enemies' tricks, but it doesn't provide an outright benefit on most occasions. I guess the best way I can describe it is "game-warping" in how it can influence DM plans.

    Kismet is thematic but also feels fairly strong. Given that Bless is on the spell list (and the other features lean on the stronger side), I do think I'd replace this.

    I don't know if Perfect Luck is too strong, but it's too many things. My suggestion is to pull off a couple of the benefits (I'd say the third and fourth) and rewrite the last to read: "You may add your proficiency bonus to any skill checks you make that you arenít already proficient with."


    Spoiler: Fate Sorcery
    Show
    Interesting early feature. Critical hit refresh is weird but fitting (I'd change "see" to "notice" or "observe" to add a little clarity that it can work with non-visible creatures, or reword to make it clear that it's only visible ones). The AC change is a weird calculation, though, and if you kept it I'd rename it to be its own listed feature.

    The other features need rewriting to bring them more in line with 5e standards and just make what they're doing clearer. It's also missing additional ways to spend sorcery points, which usually happens with at least one of an origin's features.


    Spoiler: Warlock: Fatekeeper Patron
    Show
    Given the patron, I think the spell list is actually a little too random. I did a version of this that had things like Command, for example, that's just causing things to happen. Given that, I do really like Enhance Ability, Bestow Curse, Slow, and Staggering Smite (though I'd like that better if it had one or two other smites, though also I get why it doesn't).

    As noted, Destiny's Curse is likely to be useless, though when it triggers it'll feel really good. If you want to keep the feature, I would make it usable Cha mod number of times per long rest (min. 1), which lets you spread it out a bit. You also probably have to keep in mind that you want the occasional bonus action early for Hex targets in many / most fights, but it's good for ensuring a big "boss" doesn't crit you out of a fight.

    I like Fortune's Blessing, but can it be used on yourself? Add a sentence clarifying that if needed (or just "other" before "willing creature"), and I think you forgot an "or": sentence would read better as "The next time within the next minute that the creature is forced to make a saving throw or is targeted by an attack roll, it adds 1d8 to its saving throw or AC against that attack roll."

    Fate's Servant is nice, better than I'd expect, and thematically builds on the patron's identity. Some decent synergy with a melee warlock. Having more potential Destiny's Curse uses would also improve this feature a bit.

    I like the flavor of Doom's Verdict, but it feels really strong (and does scale with more party members quite heavily). Perhaps a better option would be to grant vulnerability to an instance of damage with your reaction (probably declared after the attack hits but before damage is rolled). I think it would be good at Cha modifier uses per long rest, though uses might be tweakable. As it is, this is probably strong enough to be a once-per-day feature.

    Aside from the capstone, I do quite like this one.


    Spoiler: Ranger Longshot Conclave
    Show
    To be honest, Hex is a little weird with Hunter's Mark, too, but it's probably worth taking.

    I think, given the double features, something at 3rd level just needs to be cut. While Implausible Critical's potential variance is high, assuming you make ~2 d20 rolls in a round you've got quite a few chances to trigger automatic critical hits / basically automatic save successes, and a decent chunk of those numbers would otherwise be failures. Combined with Capsize, though, if you're getting any consistent advantage on attack rolls...that's even nastier.

    Unsettling Movement also does too much. Comparing the Hunter, I think the second and third benefits are worthy selections if that's the only thing you get, and Leap to Your Feet could easily be buffed to be comparable. I agree with making this a choice.

    Shifting Fate is really cool. I think I'd just make it a single stored use (pulling away advantage, while situational, feels nice), though I'd also probably then let the ranger bank it for himself for later if he has advantage.

    Gambit is neat, but it's too much too remember. I don't know why you have a line in there about choosing not to flip--I can't see any disadvantage to doing it--and it's probably reasonably solid without the "active" coin-flip benefits, maybe a little on the weak side. Again comparing with the Hunter, though, it doesn't look that far off at that point.


    Spoiler: Beloved of the Dice
    Show
    I am curmudgeonly and don't like anything that mucks with the mechanics of 5e so much. Having said that, here's what feedback I will muster.

    This feels pretty complicated. It's an interesting idea, and the requirements (say, for using d20s) probably balance things, but there's a lot of bookkeeping involved. I think the features themselves work pretty well, but it is a "win-more" class in one sense. As you gain features, there becomes some protection against bad luck, but it takes a while to get there. Having said that, it'll trigger quite a bit, and there's an interesting trade-off to deliberately using lower dice sizes for more procs (though being able to swap them out for bigger ones at no penalty makes the trade-off matter less, too).

    Encouraging multiclassing so much also seems strange to me. There's a huge difference in pulling this as a Cleric / Warlock / Sorcerer hybrid (I think you can get to 10 Luck Dice with Cleric 2 / Warlock 1 / Sorcerer 1, unless I misunderstand), and while that might be an abomination of a build it's pretty different than getting it as Fighter 3 / Ranger 3 / Rogue 3, for example. I believe the earliest you can pull Luck Never Runs out is Cleric 8, but Supreme Luck needs to wait until character level 16 (Cleric 6 plus one of Barb / Druid / Fighter / Rogue / Wizard to level 10). The latter gives you 21 Luck Dice, then two more levels in Cleric adds 7 for a total of 28 (which gets you to Luck Never Runs Out, also). Then, you can get 17 more with 1 level in Sorcerer and Warlock each. So 45 Luck Dice is our theoretical cap for a 20-level build...good luck using all of those in a single round.

    There are also some strong things in the class-specific stuff, especially given most of those laters are stacking with a minimum of 3 more dice and Consistent Luck, unless I misunderstand. Depending on how many dice you have stored up (and combined with other features like Consistent Luck), some of the potential disadvantages might not matter much at all. Weird thing that stands out: your cleric gets Channel Divinity one level earlier than all the others.


    Spoiler: The Gambler Patron
    Show
    Another one where I really like the core concept. The spell list doesn't make much sense to me, though.

    Initially Deck of Cards was too strong early (another spell slot? Sign me up, said every Warlock ever) and scaled poorly. You've fixed that, though, so that's a better break this time around. I do think I'd add language that you can perform this draw only once per short or long rest (so you have to take a whole other hour to re-draw) just for clarity, though it's basically in there anyway...I dunno. Binding cards to suits is also an interesting wrinkle to keep this in check. Overall, it's probably about where it should be.

    Poker Face is okay. Kind of situational.

    Pair is interesting but pretty weak. You're effectively giving up the main advantage of taking this pact for a (somewhat small) chance to buff a spell above what you "should" be able to do? At the minimum I'd throw away the suit disadvantage link at this level as well.

    Given the name, shouldn't Double or Nothing be a normal hit if you fail the re-reroll? As it is, I'd probably just make it Cha mod uses per long rest. If you make it an actual chance thing (that is, fails if you fail the re-rolled attack), I probably wouldn't cap the uses at all (maybe Cha mod per short).


    Spoiler: Fatethief
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    Whew. I see what this is going for, but it's too complex a way to handle this concept to fit well in 5e. Also, everything in here is offense-heavy--a good class option should generally branch out in other ways (utility or defensive options, in short), and Rogue Archetypes in particular.

    Prophetic Curse is the most interesting feature, being a geas analog, but the scaling (one sentence per Luck Dice..?) seems weird, and there's a chance it does literally nothing despite costing a lot of the archetype's resources.


    Edit: I lied, let's just finish these while I have some time.

    Spoiler: Way of the Chance Dancer
    Show
    This seems pretty fun.

    There's a chance Eye of the Mind just doesn't do anything useful, though it's broad enough that it usually will. I think it's probably fine as a 1 ki option, though there will be times where it'll be really good.

    Chance Dancing is a solid feature that I really appreciate. I'd probably make it "Large or smaller" creature; as written, it penalizes Small monks a bit (but also allows for some enlarge shenanigans so I'm conflicted there).

    Much like Doom's Verdict on the Fatekeeper Patron, Echoing Providence is really good. To be fair, it's not Stunning Strike, but at least there's a chance that's wasted...right? To be honest, though, despite the thematic there's probably too much overlap with SS.

    Manifestation of Serendipity seems like a good capstone to me. Really strong in crowd situations. I think the wording's a little off, though. Rewrite as "Up to 6 friendly creatures within range that you can see gain the benefits of a bless spell until the start of your next turn, and up to six hostile creatures within range that you can see must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails, it wastes its action on its next turn due to sudden misfortune."


    Spoiler: Circle of Omens
    Show
    Agh! You over-corrected here from the initial draft.

    The good: The concept from the beginning was good, if you ask me. Having some control to flip is excellent, though I do think you should always consider how Archdruid interacts with such things (so I'd probably just make it a once per short rest choice). Fatecaster is a nice concept / rider effect to tie to the main feature. Omensight works well as a utility feature, and Omen Twister is almost exactly what I'd want, I think.

    The bad: There's a ton of bookkeeping here: you need to track durations, "charges," small bonuses on the individual omens, and what happens at the end of the omen, and as far as I can tell you can have multiples running. Most combats don't go longer than 1 minute, but disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks for at least 1 minute is crippling (imagine an NPC using this on a PC, for instance). Fatecaster is kind of complex in wording (I'd probably just force you to expend an additional spell slot that you're using to cast the rider spell). The Weal / Woe "charges" are a decent concept on their own, but they forced the actual omen effects to be pretty watered down. Also, unless I'm missing something, you learn only two omens at the beginning of this circle, can never learn any others, and you can't change your choices, either, which is weird.


    Spoiler: College of the Bold
    Show
    Y'all are maybe going to convince me making bard college isn't so bad. Well, no, maybe not quite that.

    I love the opening stuff here. I do think Fortune's Returning Favors is a bit complex: I'd leave it at "When you are hit by a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. If you hit, roll damage normally and additionally reduce the attack's damage by the amount rolled. If you miss the attack roll, you gain vulnerability to that instance of damage. Before you roll the attack roll, you may expend a bardic inspiration and add it to your attack roll." If you really want the spell part, there needs to be additional language on it, I think.

    In the Face of Danger adds an interesting twist to disadvantage (almost turns it into a kind of advantage...wonder if 19-20 isn't better), and I really like what it does for being frightened, even if that's really situational.

    Ballad of the Boldest Fools seems like a weird way to bring its effects in (riding on another feature), but I like it.
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2019-03-19 at 11:40 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Just rewrote the fatethief, hopefully it's a bit simpler, and I made the features less combat oriented. Cursed Fate now gives straight up disadvantage, but only on a single type of roll that the player chooses, forcing them to be a bit more strategic, and they gain luck dice at random when the cursed target would have succeeded if not for disadvantage. Moved lengthening the duration of the curse to 9th level, cut Cut the Thread (heh) and Twisted Choices. Added Stolen Prophecy as a nice divination/roleplay feature that ties better to the theme of the subclass. A little less restrictive wording on Prophetic Curse, but you only have a minute to spit your "prophecy" out. Also made it less of a gamble on those extra two luck dice to activate the ability.

    Been a bit busy lately, but I'll try to be back later tomorrow with some short feedback for everybody. Thanks for all your help, guys.

    Edit: Just noticed that we have thirteen entries. kinda ironic .
    Last edited by SleeplessWriter; 2019-03-20 at 02:04 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Sure, I'll try to hand out some feedback on things.

    Spoiler: Circle of Omens
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    Agh! You over-corrected here from the initial draft.

    The good: The concept from the beginning was good, if you ask me. Having some control to flip is excellent, though I do think you should always consider how Archdruid interacts with such things (so I'd probably just make it a once per short rest choice). Fatecaster is a nice concept / rider effect to tie to the main feature. Omensight works well as a utility feature, and Omen Twister is almost exactly what I'd want, I think.

    The bad: There's a ton of bookkeeping here: you need to track durations, "charges," small bonuses on the individual omens, and what happens at the end of the omen, and as far as I can tell you can have multiples running. Most combats don't go longer than 1 minute, but disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks for at least 1 minute is crippling (imagine an NPC using this on a PC, for instance). Fatecaster is kind of complex in wording (I'd probably just force you to expend an additional spell slot that you're using to cast the rider spell). The Weal / Woe "charges" are a decent concept on their own, but they forced the actual omen effects to be pretty watered down. Also, unless I'm missing something, you learn only two omens at the beginning of this circle, can never learn any others, and you can't change your choices, either, which is weird.
    Alright, I've moved back toward the original interpretation but split off Omen uses as its own resource (now Wis/LR). It now uses its own charges to negate as well.

    Generic Weal and Woe removed once again, and Omens are scaled back up slightly to compensate. Many omens now have a baseline effect and an effect if the druid uses their Reaction, meaning that enemies may be penalized more for a woe omen and allies benefit more from a weal omen, at the cost of the druid's reaction. Fatecaster was restored to consuming the spell slot for the extra spell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    • Implausible Critical is an odd mechanic but I like it. It does a little bit more than expanded critical.
    • I feel like Capsize should do something beneficial only on one side of the coin. Prone is detrimental to your ranged attacks as a Longshot, but it is still beneficial overall, allowing your melee allies to beat them up and providing the same penalty to attack rolls that blinded gives.
    • Unsettling Movement: Basically Drunken Master's Kip Up, Barbarian's Danger Sense, and Deflect Arrows all as one feature? I would dial this back to a pick-one feature a la Hunter Conclave's special attacks. Alternatively, you could spread it out more, so that you get one at 7, one at 11, and one at 15.
    Implausible critical is basically the same as Expanded critical, statistically, but feels more spread out and odd... which was the point. It also can occasionally not do anything, as you could roll a 20 after a long rest.
    I agree with your critique on Capsize - I've limited it to just prone, as it's more useful across the board (extra effective on flying creatures)
    I wanted this subclass to work well with ANY of the ranger base classes. RAW, UA Spell-less, UA Revised, and my own "further Revised" ranger, and the latter 2 have advantage on initiative rolls baked in to the base class features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Gambit is neat, but it's too much too remember. I don't know why you have a line in there about choosing not to flip--I can't see any disadvantage to doing it--and it's probably reasonably solid without the "active" coin-flip benefits, maybe a little on the weak side. Again comparing with the Hunter, though, it doesn't look that far off at that point.
    The original reason you could choose to stop flipping is, if you fail once, nothing happens. That was the first bullet point "If you lose a flip, Gambit has no effect whatsoever". However, it

    Between your and Molemage's feedback, I've limited the level 7 feature to "choose one", following the hunter model
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Spoiler: Fate Sorcery
    Show
    Interesting early feature. Critical hit refresh is weird but fitting (I'd change "see" to "notice" or "observe" to add a little clarity that it can work with non-visible creatures, or reword to make it clear that it's only visible ones). The AC change is a weird calculation, though, and if you kept it I'd rename it to be its own listed feature.

    The other features need rewriting to bring them more in line with 5e standards and just make what they're doing clearer. It's also missing additional ways to spend sorcery points, which usually happens with at least one of an origin's features.
    All valid points. I'll probably change Misfortune Feedback to cost Sorcery Points, as messing around with Action Economy is pretty strong.

    I agree that the name for the alternate AC calculation needs to be changed, but I'm not sure what to call it. Is "Plot Armor" too 'On the Nose?'. Anyone else have any good ideas for a name for defense through naked luck?

    [Edit] I nerfed the class a bit in order to bring it more in-line with other Sorcerer classes.

    Being able to spam something like Cone of Cold to Ice Storm to Fireball with the same spell slot is just too good, so I changed Recycled Luck to regain Sorcery Points as if through converting the spell, which is both thematic and a slight nerf (as before it would refund 1 spell slot lower, and the new version is about 1.5 spell slots lower and requires a Bonus Action to convert back into a spell).

    I also caused Misfortune Feedback to now cost Sorcery Points, as casting spells as a reaction (basically 2x spells per round) is really powerful. Now you have a choice: Spam Shield (for 12-17 AC with Disadvantage to hit you with Plot Armor), or spend 2 Sorcery Points to cast a spell out of turn, or use Twist of Fate to force a guaranteed success into a failure (or vice-versa). All very powerful, but you can't do it all.

    Coincidentally, the nerf on Recycled Luck now fuels the cost for Misfortune Feedback, so everything is a bit more self-contained. Cast extra spells, get refunded back points when they fail, to cast more spells. I only hope that the change to using Sorcery Points doesn't make the class feel more gray and dull than it did before.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-20 at 10:00 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    More feedback!

    Spoiler: Beloved of the Dice
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    • Definitely an interesting take on the subclass mechanic. Almost reminds of me of the Starfinder archetypes where they aren't attached to a class. The special benefits for multiclassing, as others have pointed out, does not give an equal benefit across all classes (favoring 1st-level subclasses over 3rd).
    • Luck Dice: This feature, while cool, definitely favors classes that roll a lot of dice. I suppose that could be considered intentional, but it definitely leans towards rogues, blaster-casters, and greatsword fighters/paladins more than towards barbarians, for example.
    • Likewise, this subclass favors classes with lots of subclass feature levels. I guess what I'm driving at here is this subclass is not equally valued in the different base classes that can use it.
    • Lucky Streak is a good feature, no further comments.
    • Consistent Luck: How does this work with d20 luck dice? Do you reroll both dice if they get a 1? Neither? Specify which is your luck and which your normal before the roll?
    • Supreme Luck: The method to access this is...difficult. I think the earliest access to Consistent luck is through Cleric (1, 2, 8). Then you need to find another class with three subclass features before level 12. Barbarians, druids, fighters, warlocks, and wizards get their third by level 10. Monks and Rangers are a level behind at 11. Bards, Paladins, Rogues, and Sorcerers are just locked out of this feature entirely.
    • Luck Never Runs Out: I think a 1d10 would be more interesting here as a feature, since the d20 can only be expended on d20 rolls to grant advantage, while the d10 can be used on anything (including d20). Also, single class bards will never get this feature.
    • Class features: I started to write out each of these individually, but they mostly boiled down to the same thing: You have a lot of raw power here, but very little in the way of interesting class expansion.
    • Cleric: Getting a special note, because at 1st level, Clerics can't channel divinity, meaning 1st level Beloved Cleric doesn't really get a feature.
    • Rogue: Getting a special note, because rogues are all about d6s. Rogues basically have permanent advantage on attack rolls, since advantage grants sneak attack and sneak attack rolls a big chunk of d6s, which grants d6 luck dice, and the cycle continues.



    Overall, I feel like this class messes with the expectations of randomness in gameplay too powerfully. It's also almost impossible to balance across the different classes' subclass progressions.


    Spoiler: Warlock: The Gambler Patron
    Show

    • Deck of Cards' value at 1st and 2nd level is great, but it loses value as each spell level is gained, because while a standard warlock knows their spells are always the highest level, the Gambler Warlock gets random spell levels. It's technically possible for a level 20 gambler warlock to draw all 2s and 3s, leaving them with 5 1st level slots as a 20th level character (plus Mystic Arcanums, at least). I would allow removing cards of your choice at certain levels as a way to mitigate this (alternately, you could allow more drawn cards, but that runs into the opposite problem eventually).
    • Poker Face: Good ribbon. Not much to add.
    • Pair: Generally upcasting is less valuable than simply using the smaller slot twice. For example, Scorching Ray does 6d6 damage as a second level spell, or 8d6 as a third. Unless I really need an extra 2d6 damage this turn, I'll just cast the spell a second time next turn. The only time I might use this are concentration buffs which add a target each spell level (like Bless, which I could pick up with magic initiate).
    • Double or Nothing: This is a good feature. Keep in mind that 5e crit mechanics don't actually double damage, but damage dice, but otherwise it works fine.




    Spoiler: Rogue: the Fatethief
    Show

    • Cursed Fate is strong. Really strong. Compare 1st or 2nd level debuff spells to see what other characters would be capable of at that level. Disadvantage on all attack rolls/saving throws blows them out of the water. The mechanic for luck dice is alright, but the debuff needs its power reduced.
    • Stolen Strands is, by contrast, a rather smallish bonus.
    • Fateful Words. On the one hand, applying that penalty for hours on end is a lot. On the other hand, this will rarely be applied to combat (certainly not in a more reliable fashion than simple cursed fate would allow. I think it's fine, as long as Cursed Fate is reduced in power a little.
    • Stolen Prophecy. Love it. I would add a line describing mechanically how you resolve that luck (such as by using the creature's proficiency for the questioned action instead of your own), but don't change the flavor of the feature at all.
    • Prophetic Curse. It's a neat little geas with a twist. Fine as is.




    Spoiler: Monk: Way of the Chance Dancer
    Show

    • Eye of the Mind Technique is more expensive than it needs to be, but is otherwise a cool feature.
    • Chance-Dancing: A fun expansion on a core feature. Allowing the forced movement to provoke opportunity attacks is too much though.
    • Echoing Providence: "the target grants advantage to all attacks" is a little confusing. "all attacks made against the target are made with advantage" would make more sense (to my brain at least).
    • Manifestation of Serendipity actually could be a little higher cost, considering the level it is gained at and the potential to remove 6 enemy turns.




    Spoiler: Bardic College: Of the Bold
    Show

    • Concentration proficiency on a bard? Sign me up! It's fine in balance, as that's a very specific saving throw rather than all Con (heck, Sorcerers get this baseline through their all-Con proficiency).
    • Fortunes Returning Favors: might want to limit the spell to those normally taking 1 action to cast, and specify what "the triggering attack is countered" actually does (does it still deal damage? does it miss?). Otherwise it's fine as it is.
    • In the Face of Danger's wording is a little hard to follow. I'm not actually sure what it does after reading it. It sounds like you treat half of each disadvantage roll as 18 or its actual result?
    • Ballad of the Boldest: It's good as is.




    Spoiler: Cleric Destiny Domain
    Show

    All of the domain spells are spot-on. Well done.
    I don't get why this is a heavy armor domain, but then again I didn't get it when Storm was a heavy armor domain, so maybe I just don't get domains and armor.
    Name Fate: Fine as is.
    Call for Aid: It's a good emergency button.
    Master of Destiny: An advantage feature with limited uses! I think it's good as it is.

    Overall, I feel like every feature mechanically falls into place. However, I would like to see a feature in the middle levels about prophecy. Right now the only feature this class grants that really feels like reading someone's destiny is Omen of Peril (a case could be made for Master of Destiny). By adding a ribbon in the middle that lets you know things about a person's destiny it will feel more complete.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Feedback time!

    Spoiler: Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck
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    • First of all, putting the dumb in dumb luck gives you extra credit right there.
    • It's odd that Fortuitous Strike isn't a rage feature, as other barbarians usually get one at level 3. Otherwise it's fine (in rage, this barbarian is not competing with Frenzy's extra attack or Bear's resist all or Wolf's ally advantage, but it makes up for it by not requiring rage, IMO).
    • Impact Calibration: Fun little ribbon. I might swap its position with Bumbling Path as 10 is the usual barbarian ribbon level.
    • Bumbling Path: Nothing really to comment on. It fits, other than being at a level when barbarians usually get a ribbon instead of a combat feature.
    • Percussive Maintenance: Nice little buff to Impact Calibration.
    • Fortunate Footing: Honestly this feels a little weak, compared to Ranger's Land's Stride for example.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Sure, I'll try to hand out some feedback on things.

    Spoiler: Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck
    Show
    Love the concept. I agree with flipping Bumbling Path to 6 (it isn't that strong, but Fortuitous Strike increases as well), but it does feel a bit weak at 14. Fortunate Footing could be a little better, is really what I'm saying (but don't overload it with features).

    Thanks for the feedback. Per both your comments I moved bumbling path to 6th level and impact calibration to 10th. I actually made a specific decision on the level 3 feature for it not to be rage based only. Since there are ribbon and out of combat abilities to use with rage, I wanted to boost the capabilities of the barbarian in combat if they were out of rage options.

    I re-worked the level 14 ability name and also added in removing the advantage/disadvantages from blindness.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    More feedback!


    Spoiler: Rogue: the Fatethief
    Show

    • Cursed Fate is strong. Really strong. Compare 1st or 2nd level debuff spells to see what other characters would be capable of at that level. Disadvantage on all attack rolls/saving throws blows them out of the water. The mechanic for luck dice is alright, but the debuff needs its power reduced.
    • Stolen Strands is, by contrast, a rather smallish bonus.
    • Fateful Words. On the one hand, applying that penalty for hours on end is a lot. On the other hand, this will rarely be applied to combat (certainly not in a more reliable fashion than simple cursed fate would allow. I think it's fine, as long as Cursed Fate is reduced in power a little.
    • Stolen Prophecy. Love it. I would add a line describing mechanically how you resolve that luck (such as by using the creature's proficiency for the questioned action instead of your own), but don't change the flavor of the feature at all.
    • Prophetic Curse. It's a neat little geas with a twist. Fine as is.



    Thanks for the feedback. Changed it to disadvantage on the first roll of the chosen type every round, but added the ability to change your choice on a single target as a bonus action so you can still reliably gain luck dice from the feature.
    Should I add a bit more scaling to the luck dice, or are they fine as is?
    I didn't think about having a mechanical enforcement of Stolen Prophecy, I was thinking it'd be pretty much as mechanically bound as augury is. Should I change that? I'm not sure how I would, though somehow keying off the other creature's proficiencies is a good suggestion.

    Thanks again for the feedback, it's really helpful, and I'll be back later with a little of my own.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Follow-ups to comments!

    Quote Originally Posted by SleeplessWriter View Post
    Just rewrote the fatethief, hopefully it's a bit simpler, and I made the features less combat oriented.

    ...

    Edit: Just noticed that we have thirteen entries. kinda ironic .
    It's better, definitely, though I think the uses need tweaking. I'd probably keep you from trying to curse the same creature more than once per long (maybe short?) rest, and the language around uses needs clarifying. "You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier" is the standard wording and would make it clear that it's based on you and not the creature targeted.

    I also love the fact that we have 13 entries here, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Alright, I've moved back toward the original interpretation but split off Omen uses as its own resource (now Wis/LR). It now uses its own charges to negate as well.

    Generic Weal and Woe removed once again, and Omens are scaled back up slightly to compensate. Many omens now have a baseline effect and an effect if the druid uses their Reaction, meaning that enemies may be penalized more for a woe omen and allies benefit more from a weal omen, at the cost of the druid's reaction. Fatecaster was restored to consuming the spell slot for the extra spell.
    Yeah, this is a lot better. I've forgotten exactly what your original thing was--I think I liked it better other than the "this feature might not do anything" than even this revision, but you definitely put in a lot of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    All valid points. I'll probably change Misfortune Feedback to cost Sorcery Points, as messing around with Action Economy is pretty strong.

    I agree that the name for the alternate AC calculation needs to be changed, but I'm not sure what to call it. Is "Plot Armor" too 'On the Nose?'. Anyone else have any good ideas for a name for defense through naked luck?

    ...

    Coincidentally, the nerf on Recycled Luck now fuels the cost for Misfortune Feedback, so everything is a bit more self-contained. Cast extra spells, get refunded back points when they fail, to cast more spells. I only hope that the change to using Sorcery Points doesn't make the class feel more gray and dull than it did before.
    I like "Plotted Armor"--it's not the outright pun but keeps it in place and ties into the concept of things being destined or "plotted," if you will.

    I'd have to run math--this is one of the more complex entries--but I definitely think it's in a better place. It feels pretty powerful, but I like that it has a concept around, mechanically, "Sorcerer that controls stuff with reactions."

    I personally think tying SP into it makes it more cohesive, as at its heart this is still supposed to be a sorcerer, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. Per both your comments I moved bumbling path to 6th level and impact calibration to 10th. I actually made a specific decision on the level 3 feature for it not to be rage based only. Since there are ribbon and out of combat abilities to use with rage, I wanted to boost the capabilities of the barbarian in combat if they were out of rage options.

    I re-worked the level 14 ability name and also added in removing the advantage/disadvantages from blindness.
    I think I'd probably change the blindness avoidance to removing the disadvantage on attack rolls / granting advantage, but I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    All of the domain spells are spot-on. Well done.
    I don't get why this is a heavy armor domain, but then again I didn't get it when Storm was a heavy armor domain, so maybe I just don't get domains and armor.
    Name Fate: Fine as is.
    Call for Aid: It's a good emergency button.
    Master of Destiny: An advantage feature with limited uses! I think it's good as it is.

    Overall, I feel like every feature mechanically falls into place. However, I would like to see a feature in the middle levels about prophecy. Right now the only feature this class grants that really feels like reading someone's destiny is Omen of Peril (a case could be made for Master of Destiny). By adding a ribbon in the middle that lets you know things about a person's destiny it will feel more complete.
    The only reason for heavy armor is that most clerics get it, and it's not a "caster" like Arcana or Knowledge (note Divine Strike over Potent Spellcasting). Additionally, Call for Aid encourages you to be in the middle of things. If I pulled heavy armor, I'd either need to add several other skill / tool / language proficiencies a la Knowledge, which didn't seem right, or martial weapons a la Death Domain, which also felt weird. Heavy armor seemed like the best approach.* To be honest, yes, it's weird, and I personally wish there were fewer of them, but I'm trying to calibrate it in line with other cleric options.

    To me, the thematic is that the gods basically let you decide what things are supposed to be (whether that's through providence or just a general "shrug" of "you're my empowered servant"), so I feel like the spell list gives enough of the destiny-knowing. I could see adding a rider to Call for Aid as an immediate augury expenditure, though.

    * Other considered option: Guidance / Resistance as free cantrips, but most clerics are going to take those anyway, so I feel like the end result is a very "all the cantrips" feeling cleric (given they have so few choices), which is unexciting to me. It also mirrors my "Fate" Domain pretty too closely--I do wonder if you'd like that one better. Its capstone (try to "match" your future) is pretty cool, though a lot more complex than what I have here.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Follow-ups to comments!
    I think I'd probably change the blindness avoidance to removing the disadvantage on attack rolls / granting advantage, but I dunno.
    It's phrased as "Additionally, during this time you are immune to all impacts of the blinded condition."

    So, technically you are still blinded but you don't get the disadvantage/advantage

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Follow-ups to comments!

    I like "Plotted Armor"--it's not the outright pun but keeps it in place and ties into the concept of things being destined or "plotted," if you will.

    I'd have to run math--this is one of the more complex entries--but I definitely think it's in a better place. It feels pretty powerful, but I like that it has a concept around, mechanically, "Sorcerer that controls stuff with reactions."

    I personally think tying SP into it makes it more cohesive, as at its heart this is still supposed to be a sorcerer, after all.
    I decided to go with "Fool's Fortune" or "Fool's Faith", but I might just go back to "Plot Armor", as the armor calculation is only as useful as long as long as the DM doesn't throw anything with a high hit bonus at you. That is, the DM effectively chooses how good it truly is.

    Your comments solidified the idea to use Sorcery Points. It also forces Sorcerers to really put a lot of emphasis on their Metamagic choices, as they should be having a LOT of Sorcery points to play with, but they have to spend some to make room for more.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    It's phrased as "Additionally, during this time you are immune to all impacts of the blinded condition."

    So, technically you are still blinded but you don't get the disadvantage/advantage
    Yeah, but like...I can just see a player running this and saying, "But I can still see with my eyes closed, right? Isn't that an impact of the blinded condition?" And then the DM has to explain that, and I'm not giving people blindsight for that feature, nuh uh.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Yeah, but like...I can just see a player running this and saying, "But I can still see with my eyes closed, right? Isn't that an impact of the blinded condition?" And then the DM has to explain that, and I'm not giving people blindsight for that feature, nuh uh.
    Alright, fair enough. I will fully explain it. I actually thought about giving blindsight 10ft in the feature, but it seemed to be way to much.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Spoiler: College of the Bold
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    Y'all are maybe going to convince me making bard college isn't so bad. Well, no, maybe not quite that.

    I love the opening stuff here. I do think Fortune's Returning Favors is a bit complex: I'd leave it at "When you are hit by a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. If you hit, roll damage normally and additionally reduce the attack's damage by the amount rolled. If you miss the attack roll, you gain vulnerability to that instance of damage. Before you roll the attack roll, you may expend a bardic inspiration and add it to your attack roll." If you really want the spell part, there needs to be additional language on it, I think.

    In the Face of Danger adds an interesting twist to disadvantage (almost turns it into a kind of advantage...wonder if 19-20 isn't better), and I really like what it does for being frightened, even if that's really situational.

    Ballad of the Boldest Fools seems like a weird way to bring its effects in (riding on another feature), but I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Spoiler: Bardic College: Of the Bold
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    • Concentration proficiency on a bard? Sign me up! It's fine in balance, as that's a very specific saving throw rather than all Con (heck, Sorcerers get this baseline through their all-Con proficiency).
    • Fortunes Returning Favors: might want to limit the spell to those normally taking 1 action to cast, and specify what "the triggering attack is countered" actually does (does it still deal damage? does it miss?). Otherwise it's fine as it is.
    • In the Face of Danger's wording is a little hard to follow. I'm not actually sure what it does after reading it. It sounds like you treat half of each disadvantage roll as 18 or its actual result?
    • Ballad of the Boldest: It's good as is.


    Thanks for the comments! I like the idea of this stupidly heroic bard who fights along the front line and I think the concentration proficiency and the damage reduction from returning favors might make that sort of doable.

    Good point with the spell limitation, if it should allow casting a spell, and what counters means. Do you think it would be cleaner/better/more balanced if it either increased your AC against that attack, decreased the damage you took from it or made it automatically miss?

    Simply put, In the face of danger turns the disadvantage into advantage if either of the d20s roll a 18, 19 or 20. You don't reroll the dice but you can pick the higher die instead of the lower one. It might be good enough even if you limit it to rolls of 19 and 20. Is this wording more clear? "When rolling an attack roll with disadvantage and you roll a 18, 19 or 20 on either die, you may treat the dice as if you had rolled them with advantage and use the higher result instead of the lower"

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    Thanks for the comments! I like the idea of this stupidly heroic bard who fights along the front line and I think the concentration proficiency and the damage reduction from returning favors might make that sort of doable.

    Good point with the spell limitation, if it should allow casting a spell, and what counters means. Do you think it would be cleaner/better/more balanced if it either increased your AC against that attack, decreased the damage you took from it or made it automatically miss?

    Simply put, In the face of danger turns the disadvantage into advantage if either of the d20s roll a 18, 19 or 20. You don't reroll the dice but you can pick the higher die instead of the lower one. It might be good enough even if you limit it to rolls of 19 and 20. Is this wording more clear? "When rolling an attack roll with disadvantage and you roll a 18, 19 or 20 on either die, you may treat the dice as if you had rolled them with advantage and use the higher result instead of the lower"
    That wording is way better. I'm not 100% sure on the feature's balance (one of the key benefits of causing disadvantage is that critical hits are drastically less likely to happen), but the wording here leaves no doubt about what is happening anymore.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Follow-ups to comments!

    Yeah, this is a lot better. I've forgotten exactly what your original thing was--I think I liked it better other than the "this feature might not do anything" than even this revision, but you definitely put in a lot of work.
    I honestly don't remember all the details anymore myself (I forgot to save it), but it worked a lot like this but with Wild Shape uses instead of its own resource. Omen of Sky is the only one I wrote for that version, and it was pretty similar to what it is now (I improved the wording and made complicated bits less complicated while trying to keep the power the same). Oh, and Fatecaster let you choose to grant (dis)advantage for saves against woe omens, and only allowed the spellcast on weal omens. I might put that version of Fatecaster back now that woe omens have saves again.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    Alright, fair enough. I will fully explain it. I actually thought about giving blindsight 10ft in the feature, but it seemed to be way to much.
    I think blindsight *10* ft. is probably okay. As written it was just vague enough to be blindsight "out to your vision range," which is p. good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    Good point with the spell limitation, if it should allow casting a spell, and what counters means. Do you think it would be cleaner/better/more balanced if it either increased your AC against that attack, decreased the damage you took from it or made it automatically miss?

    Simply put, In the face of danger turns the disadvantage into advantage if either of the d20s roll a 18, 19 or 20. You don't reroll the dice but you can pick the higher die instead of the lower one. It might be good enough even if you limit it to rolls of 19 and 20. Is this wording more clear? "When rolling an attack roll with disadvantage and you roll a 18, 19 or 20 on either die, you may treat the dice as if you had rolled them with advantage and use the higher result instead of the lower"
    I had my own thoughts on how the "counter" should work (as already suggested), but I felt like your initial wording for In the Face of Danger was cleaner than the rewrite. (It's kind of a weird ability, not sure what precedents for the feature's language already exist in 5e.)
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    That wording is way better. I'm not 100% sure on the feature's balance (one of the key benefits of causing disadvantage is that critical hits are drastically less likely to happen), but the wording here leaves no doubt about what is happening anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I had my own thoughts on how the "counter" should work (as already suggested), but I felt like your initial wording for In the Face of Danger was cleaner than the rewrite. (It's kind of a weird ability, not sure what precedents for the feature's language already exist in 5e.)
    After done some maths on it, I think it is way too strong. 18-20 puts the average roll on about 9.7 and with the extended critical of scoring critical hits 27% of the time when you have disadvantage. I will probably change it to only trigger on 20s (mean 8.1) with no extended critical effect, or that you just have extended critical hits when you have disadvantage. Either of looks more balanced than it is now. I will look over the way it is written as well when I got the time.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-03-21 at 07:08 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    After reading some more feedback I tossed in a last minute change to add a re-draw and changed the double or nothing feature to be based off of charisma instead of proficiency. Toying with a couple ideas for making it a bit better at higher levels. May add in some DC/attack mod bonus for when you cast a spell using the right suit around level 10 or 14

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Based on feedback, I lowered the cost of Eye of the Mind Technique and clarified the wording on Echoing Providence. I would like some more feedback regarding this class, as only two people have given any so far.
    Subclass is Way of the Chance Dancer.
    Last edited by Oubliette; 2019-03-23 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Just got a bit of flavor text done for the fatethief, and any last minute feedback would be appreciated.

    As for a nit of feedback on other people's stuff, here goes:

    Gambler: Nice call on switching double or nothing to key off of charisma, proficiency can get a bit wonky on multiclass, and at that high a level charisma'll be comparable anyway.
    I also realized that one way you could prevent people from taking excess short rests to reshuffle their hand is to not reshuffle the whole hand when you rest, but to only draw new cards to fill unexpended slots. That way if the player had an ace of spades before a rest they'd still have it, but they'd also have drawn a five of hearts and a three of diamonds. A full hand would mean they'd keep the same hand until they used a few of the spellslots and took another rest.
    It wouldn't stop someone from, say, casting armor of agathys over and over to get rid of the spellsots they don't want and resting until they do, but in either case the DM should be able to easily step in and say no to a player that tries to abuse or sidestep the mechanic. Just something for consideration, I guess.

    Chance Dancer: looks good overall. I would ask whether eye of the mind technique can be used to make the same target use one of your rolls more than once a turn. Eye of the mind technique in general, actually, is the most powerful thing about this subclass since it basically gives you a short rest recharge version of portent, with more charges to boot, but it is slightly more limited by the fact that you: one, have to land an attack; two, have to spend a valuable class resource that is competing with the likes of stunning strike; and three, must do so before the beginning of your next turn. Chance dancing is fine, though, it did take me a minute to parse what it was doing, and it looks kinda fun. Echoing Providence is pretty well balanced, and may even be a little over costed on it's ki points since stunning strike also gives advantage against its victim for the same duration on any hit in addition to its other effects all for one ki point. But echoing providence also doesn't have a saving throw, and a weak feature at later levels may help balance out the strong features that get easier to use frequently at later levels. Personally I'd switch the ki costs for eye of the mind technique and echoing providence, and maybe limit eye of the mind technique to hits from flurry of blows, but that's up to you.
    The capstone is powerful, but the duration probably balances it out enough that it's not a problem.

    Circle of Omens: Looks quite a bit better now that it keys off of wisdom, but I would worry that the whole subclass can only be used two or three times reliably per long rest until the capstone. Maybe if it had more uses, or refreshed on a short rest. But I'd be afraid that a short rest refresh rate would be too much. 2 + Wisdom Modifier would probably work, giving at least 2 reliable uses to a 3rd level druid and at least 3 to a druid with a +5 wisdom modifier, or you could make a table with a number of uses that scale with your druid levels. I'd generally go with the simpler solution, though.


    I might add feedback for a few more subclasses later.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SleeplessWriter View Post
    Circle of Omens: Looks quite a bit better now that it keys off of wisdom, but I would worry that the whole subclass can only be used two or three times reliably per long rest until the capstone. Maybe if it had more uses, or refreshed on a short rest. But I'd be afraid that a short rest refresh rate would be too much. 2 + Wisdom Modifier would probably work, giving at least 2 reliable uses to a 3rd level druid and at least 3 to a druid with a +5 wisdom modifier, or you could make a table with a number of uses that scale with your druid levels. I'd generally go with the simpler solution, though.
    This is a good idea. I'll do the 2+Wis. I didn't want to make it short rest considering it's their third class resource. When it originally keyed off Wild Shape uses it was fine to recharge as normal because it was competing, but with this they have a lot of potential resource expenditure between this, spells, and wild shapes.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Glad I could help, MoleMage.

    Okay, here's a few more subclass feedbacks, and I will add at least another one or two to this post later, so check back on it if you haven't seen me give your subclass feedback yet.


    College of the Bold: The wording on the bonus proficiencies is a little wonky, maybe replace it with something like this: "When you join the College of the Bold at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in martial weapons and Concentration saving throws to maintain spells." Or even just drop the "to maintain spells" from that to make it smoother. It's not like there's many other things concentration gets used for, and making them easier to keep up wouldn't be too bad either. Fortune's Returning favor is pretty good, essentially giving this subclass a risky extra attack. It fits the theme pretty well in that regard. In the Face of Danger is a little bit too powerful at the moment, in my opinion at least, since it actually increases the chance of a critical hit to 4% of the time. If you reduced the crit range to 18-20 it would be more balanced at 2.25% chance of a critical hit instead of the 0.25% disadvantage usually gives. I suppose it's up to you to decide if it's too powerful as is, but I'd probably go the more conservative route here, especially since it's a bard subclass and not a fighter. Ballad of the Boldest Fools, on the other hand, is mostly fine. The one thing I'd be concerned about is that I don't know how long it actually let's others use Fortune's Returning Favor, so you might want to clarify that.
    Pretty good subclass so far, though.

    The Destiny Domain: Overall the subclass looks pretty good, and Call for Aid looks like a lot of fun to play with. The one thing I'd be worried about with this subclass would be Name Fate being able to give a -13 or -15 on an attack roll or ability check, but especially on a saving throw against things like hold person or stunning strike, or even charm person and other compulsion type effects. I know the average'll look more like -8 to -10, and just for debuffing attack rolls that would be fine since it is kinda comparable to war domain's channel divinity, but for saving throws that's just too much. Maybe remove the wisdom modifier, or change it to 1d6. just so you can't guarantee encounter ending spells go off all the time.
    Last edited by SleeplessWriter; 2019-03-24 at 10:07 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SleeplessWriter View Post
    The Destiny Domain: Overall the subclass looks pretty good, and Call for Aid looks like a lot of fun to play with. The one thing I'd be worried about with this subclass would be Name Fate being able to give a -13 or -15 on an attack roll or ability check, but especially on a saving throw against things like hold person or stunning strike, or even charm person and other compulsion type effects. I know the average'll look more like -8 to -10, and just for debuffing attack rolls that would be fine since it is kinda comparable to war domain's channel divinity, but for saving throws that's just too much. Maybe remove the wisdom modifier, or change it to 1d6. just so you can't guarantee encounter ending spells go off all the time.
    Oh, thanks, this is what I needed to hear. You're right that I wasn't thinking about how that would interact with "save-or-suck" options. I don't think I want to make it any more complicated in terms of using different dice...as a placeholder I believe I'm just going to mostly "copy" Cutting Words and modify it to "When a creature that you can see within 30 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your Channel Divinity as a reaction to subtract 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 0) from the roll. You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage." Had I more time I might think of a different tweak (probably in the direction of saving throws), but I want to get something in that I feel like is balanced.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SleeplessWriter View Post
    Gambler: Nice call on switching double or nothing to key off of charisma, proficiency can get a bit wonky on multiclass, and at that high a level charisma'll be comparable anyway.
    I also realized that one way you could prevent people from taking excess short rests to reshuffle their hand is to not reshuffle the whole hand when you rest, but to only draw new cards to fill unexpended slots. That way if the player had an ace of spades before a rest they'd still have it, but they'd also have drawn a five of hearts and a three of diamonds. A full hand would mean they'd keep the same hand until they used a few of the spellslots and took another rest.
    It wouldn't stop someone from, say, casting armor of agathys over and over to get rid of the spellsots they don't want and resting until they do, but in either case the DM should be able to easily step in and say no to a player that tries to abuse or sidestep the mechanic. Just something for consideration, I guess.
    I took your advice here and changed it up so that short rests will merely "fill" your hand while you can choose to draw an entirely new hand on a long rest if you desire. I also made a more major change last minute to allow a warlock to draw level 6 spell slots due to the fall off in effectiveness around this level as pointed out earlier in this thread. The warlock can't cast 6th level spells they may know with that slot so hopefully its not too far a jump in power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Another one where I really like the core concept. The spell list doesn't make much sense to me, though.
    The spell list was chosen less for thematic reasons as to try and pad out some of the spell levels for warlock that lack spells of certain schools. This was mostly for the sake of the card suits and making sure there weren't any times where you would draw a card and not have any decent cards for it.
    Last edited by Kingsluger; 2019-03-24 at 02:55 PM.

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