D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[MoleMage]

Voting thread is up!

Also, for any of you who ever checked the first post's class representation table, you may have noticed there was no clear scheme to ranking from one contest to the next. This is because I kept forgetting how I valued number of contests versus number of entries. I have finally written down what I am doing so it will be consistent from here on out.

[Man_Over_Game]

Here's my final feedback on all the entries:

1. Chance Dancer (Flavorful, mechanically and tactically interesting, consistent, and it references existing mechanics. I feel like this is something I could actually learn, and I question why it's not already in a book. Well done as my #1 spot!)
2. Oath of Fortune (I like the idea of having combat Divinities, followed by a non-combat tool, both of which appeal to the subclass concept. It's a bit dull, to be honest, but as I play it out in my head, I feel like it'd play as a Paladin with a solution to any problem that helps others succeed more often, and that's exactly what I'd expect a Guide of Luck to be.)
3. Beloved of the Dice (A risky gambit that has a lot of interesting mechanics. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to balance it all, but the work and theory itself is enough for me to bump it up. I also like that the class-specific benefits reference well-known mechanics, which is a major plus in my book.
4. Longshot Conclave (Well balanced, just not very tactical or adaptive. Randomness doesn't always equal fun. Combined with the fact that ranged combat is already a bit dull (and the additional range will only exacerbate that), and I get this feeling like it could be a bit more tactically interesting early on. The mid-level features are really quite interesting, and I think it's more important to have the "colorful"/interesting features to be available right off the bat.)
5. College of the Bold (Really flavorful abilities, but I feel like they need some major tuning for them to be worthwhile. For example, a 17-20 with Disadvantage is a 4% chance, which is a big deal for a subclass feature)
6. The Gambler (Really risky move, and I like that, but I don't think it'd be very balanced, considering each card is a spell slot and not a spell).
7. Destiny Domain (It's clean, and almost in line with other Clerics, but it's very weak. Early level features are: increase initiative, gain two skills, and use the Bard's Cutting Words feature once per Short Rest. If it was a bit stronger, I'd definitely raise it up).
8. Lucky Scoundrel (Tactics mostly seem like they'd revolve around metagaming. "Ok, so if I attack and then give you Luck, and you make sure you use it before my turn, I don't ever get a penalty, so just make sure you get rid of it ASAP". Mostly a numbers crunching game, which doesn't add much "color" to the battlefield. I think everything seems balanced, although the wording could be fixed a bit (I'd just have everything revolve around Sneak Attack dice, and losing/gaining them back).
9. Fatethief (Has a lot of interesting mechanics, but it's all a bit confusing, and all using abilities that are self-contained. That is, it hardly uses existing mechanics and instead creates its own, which creates a lot of lookup to run it properly. This is opposed to duplicating spell effects (like Suggestion), or using existing combat mechanics (like Advantage).)
10. Circle of Omens (I like the new changes, but I just have a hard time accepting something with a ton of complex, unique lookups. The Battlemaster's maneuvers are all simple and easy to memorize, where yours are not. This is before including the rules needed to properly apply the Omens. Think about how many times someone would have to pause to read a specific table for a specific subclass, on a class that is already a full caster and Wild Shape).
11. Path of Dumb Luck (As flavorful as the concept is, the first few features are a bit...dull. They don't do much to make the Barbarian feel lucky in real gameplay, and he'll likely resort to doing the same thing he was doing at level 1, except now doing them until level 10. The first subclass feature, in particular, has to be the most "colorful" ability of any subclass. That HAS to be the singular focus for the subclass, in order to draw people into taking it. In this case, it's an extra 1d4 damage.)
12. Fatekeeper (I feel that most of the abilities are a bit too weak, and a bit too empty. I feel like the strategy would be to curse the boss and....wait? It could use some explosiveness and less passive abilities. Note that the most similar subclass feature to this is the Hexblade's Curse, which has a bunch of abilities, including an increased crit range. This is before mentioning spells as usable as Shield and Wrathful Smite. This is minor: As useful as Bane might be, I think it was a poor choice to include it as an option, as it causes an Invocation to become obsolete. I feel it's important to create new content, not replace what already exists).

[nickl_2000]

Get your votes in folks. Even if they aren't for mine (but you are welcome to vote twice if it is for mine*)



*disclaimer: poster does not endorse cheating unless it is for rolling stats or the DM rolling behind the screen to prevent a TPK when the PCs weren't stupid

[MoleMage]

While we're in the voting period, there's a couple things I wanted to ask about, regarding potential special rules in contests.

In general, how do people feel about special rules for specific contests?
These can be simple things, like the "I Read This" contest requiring that you specifically name the source of inspiration, or we could do a theme where they are more complicated, like my question below regarding the potential future Subsystems theme. Are they too interruptive? Do they make things more fun? What sort of restrictions should apply before an additional rule is declared?



Subsystems Online is doing consistently well in the theme voting, now in its third consecutive vote as it carried forward on the runner-up rule. For this contest specifically I had a few optional rules ideas, but I obviously don't want to do anything that makes the contest less fun.

All of these rules options hinge on the idea that this contest requires the creation of a new game system, like Battlemaster Maneuvers or Spellcasting in the core book, which the submitted subclass will use.

• Option 1: The contest is done as normal.
• Option 2: The contest is done as normal. During the voting round, a bonus round is submitted simultaneously in the same thread where in addition to voting for the best subclasses, votes can be made for the best subsystems.
• Option 3: A special rule is introduced, allowing players to submit a second subclass which must use the same subsystem. This subclass is not eligible for the initial round of voting, but a bonus round made up of these second classes exists (possibly combined with a second bonus round for subsystems themselves).
• Option 4: A special rule is introduced, allowing players to collaborate in teams of up to 3. Members of a team may each submit their own subclass, which must implement a subsystem that the whole team worked on together. Subclasses are voted on individually, while subsystems receive voting in a bonus round. If a subsystem wins, credit goes to all members of that team.
• Option 5: Participants are allowed to use a subsystem created by another participant (EDIT: with permission). This works like option 4, but only the original creator of the subsystem gets credit for victories won by their subsystem.
• Option 6: A combination of options 3, 4, and 5. No subsystem is allowed to have more than 3 official creators or more than 3 subclasses created for it, but a creator can submit a second class for it, or further participants can receive permission to create an additional class for it. Subsystems can be made by individuals or teams, and receive a bonus voting round. In this one, secondary classes created by a single person would only receive a bonus round if a minimum number existed (otherwise they serve only to showcase the subsystem).

[Ivellius]

Option 6 is interesting to me (well, any of the collaborative options), but I think whatever the choice there I'd like to see a vote for best system as well as best overall class option (so also Option 2). If you want my two cents, that is.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmm..interesting question, MoleMage!

I think to avoid having a bunch of scattered, arbitrary opinions ("I like this subclass more, but the mechanic is really whack and throws off the whole concept. I like this other mechanic more, but nobody knows how to make a subclass around it. How do I vote?") I think it's best to keep things as organized and focused as possible. I think it'd be fine to have an interim contest to create a unique mechanic that everyone votes on, and then having the following subclass voting thread use that singular mechanic that everyone can agree on. This brings the best of both worlds without any conflicting opinions or judging.

Perhaps if the Subsystems concept is voted as #1, we shelf it to make a mechanics contest first while we run the #2 contest choice at the same time. Once the #2 choice is finished, we go back to the Subsystems Online choice after we've decided on what mechanic everyone likes the most.

I think that'd be the best option.

---------------

On an unrelated topic, what defines whether a concept has already been written up or not?

I mean, if I gave someone a suggestion in some other thread in the forum about an idea for a subclass, but didn't write up any specifics, does that disqualify that particular idea for the contest?

[MoleMage]

Hmm..interesting question, MoleMage!

I think to avoid having a bunch of scattered, arbitrary opinions ("I like this subclass more, but the mechanic is really whack and throws off the whole concept. I like this other mechanic more, but nobody knows how to make a subclass around it. How do I vote?") I think it's best to keep things as organized and focused as possible. I think it'd be fine to have an interim contest to create a unique mechanic that everyone votes on, and then having the following subclass voting thread use that singular mechanic that everyone can agree on. This brings the best of both worlds without any conflicting opinions or judging.

Perhaps if the Subsystems concept is voted as #1, we shelf it to make a mechanics contest first while we run the #2 contest choice at the same time. Once the #2 choice is finished, we go back to the Subsystems Online choice after we've decided on what mechanic everyone likes the most.

I think that'd be the best option.

---------------

On an unrelated topic, what defines whether a concept has already been written up or not?

I mean, if I gave someone a suggestion in some other thread in the forum about an idea for a subclass, but didn't write up any specifics, does that disqualify that particular idea for the contest?

My primary concern with the interim subsystem designing contest is that if we only pick one subsystem, that really limits the ability of participants to make unique varieties for a given class. While ribbons obviously give some wiggle room, imagine if the whole contest was to, for example, make subclasses that use battlemaster maneuvers. One rogue with battlemaster maneuvers will look much the same as any other rogue with them, and the same will be true to some extent regardless of what the system in question is. However, I would consider doing this where entrants in the subclass system can use any of the top three subsystems (or a similar pool).

As to the rule about whether a concept has been written or not, ideas previously discussed are fine, as long as they weren't given any specific information. There's kind of a pile of sand paradox at play here, so if it comes to an edge case I'd probably put it to a community vote, but if you feel like you can defend the point that a subclass hasn't been made before, you're probably pretty okay.

[SleeplessWriter]

Option 6 looks good, though in practice it may end up a little more like option 3. Either way, it looks like fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

My primary concern with the interim subsystem designing contest is that if we only pick one subsystem, that really limits the ability of participants to make unique varieties for a given class. While ribbons obviously give some wiggle room, imagine if the whole contest was to, for example, make subclasses that use battlemaster maneuvers. One rogue with battlemaster maneuvers will look much the same as any other rogue with them, and the same will be true to some extent regardless of what the system in question is. However, I would consider doing this where entrants in the subclass system can use any of the top three subsystems (or a similar pool).

You make a very valid point. I do kinda like the idea of working with others, too (I'm a sucker for teamwork), so I'll just shut up and vote Option 4.

[Fnissalot]

I would say 3?

I am ok with teamwork as long as I can do a solo submission if I would want to.

[MoleMage]

I would say 3?

I am ok with teamwork as long as I can do a solo submission if I would want to.

Yeah I'm not going to force people to work in teams. This is neither a classroom nor a corporation. Even if options 4 or 5 are up, they are completely voluntary. It isn't required, it's allowed.

[MoleMage]

Well, it is just about half a week left on the voting period (which ends this Sunday), so if you haven't voted yet, do so! Remember that if you tie, the first tiebreaker goes to the person who voted.

I also have updated the first post of the voting thread with the current tallies as of my own vote this morning.

[Man_Over_Game]

Two days left, still missing votes from 4 contestants!

Icecaster, superninja109, Vogie, sengmeng! Where you guys at?!

[MoleMage]

We never did get votes from Icecaster, superninja109, or sengmeng, but it is time to call the voting nonetheless.

Alright everyone, the voting period has ended and our results are here!

IIIIIN Third place, we have that Druid Circle which can read the upcoming luck as easily as looking at birds. With 6 points, it's MoleMages druidic Circle of Omens.

In Second Place, we have nothing, in keeping with the tiebreaker rules established in the last thread, because...

In First place, we have an official tie! As both Man_Over_Game and Oubliette submitted votes, and as each of them had the same number of 1st-rank votes (3), each of them takes their highly respectable 13 (again with 13?) points into a first place tie! Named in chronological order of submission, our first place subclasses are Man_Over_Game's Fate Sorcery sorcerous origin (Twist Advantage! Cast spells as a Reaction!) and Oubliette's monk Way of the Chance Dancer (Roll for your enemies! Use prescience to shape luck!).

Congratulations to both of our first place winners!

Meanwhile, in the next contest discussion, we had an overwhelming rally around Something Borrowed in the home stretch, so look for that contest shortly. And our runner up this time is The Pen is Mightier than the Sword, so you'll have the chance to vote for it again next time.

I am presently getting the formatting and theme paragraph put together for Contest VIII: Something Borrowed, and will post the link here and in the first post shortly.

[Man_Over_Game]

Wow, I did not expect that. Talk about lucky!

Well done, Oubliette and everyone else!

And a major thanks to MoleMage. Without you, we'd all be doing something considerably less.

[nickl_2000]

Congratulations all :)

[MoleMage]

New contest is up!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5#post23831805


EDIT: This group is astounding. It's been what...five hours? and already there's a subclass, a framework, and a concept?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm really looking forward to that Skinwalker. I like the idea of someone's subclass giving me the willies, and I hope it doesn't disappoint.

[nickl_2000]

I'm really looking forward to that Skinwalker. I like the idea of someone's subclass giving me the willies, and I hope it doesn't disappoint.

It really does take some of the guesswork out of what creatures you have seen, when you have had to kill the creature and skinned it to have access to its forms.

[theVoidWatches]

Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to writing it too (although it'll take a few days to get something more substantial than a rough plan up owing to various things I'm busy with). Looking forward to seeing your stuff as well!

[Ivellius]

Hm...first impulse is to run a Battlemaster...Monk, probably, although then you'd have another resource competing with Ki...I mainly just want to get one of the old Tome of Battle classes back (so Paladin would work, I guess).

I like the idea of an Aura-based Cleric (borrowing from Paladin), too. I'll need to ponder some more, I think.

[Fnissalot]

I have too many concepts for this right now; a druid with pact weapon, pretty much anything with a familiar or pet, a rogue with cutting words(an insult sword thing), or a pact magic/domains mix for a third class? All these options...

[nickl_2000]

I have too many concepts for this right now; a druid with pact weapon, pretty much anything with a familiar or pet, a rogue with cutting words(an insult sword thing), or a pact magic/domains mix for a third class? All these options...

When writing down initial ideas I really got stuck on rage as a mechanic on other classes, a Rage Knight (Fighter), a Rage Mage (Wizard/Sorcerer), and a Rage Monk. I didn't end up going with them, but that really was stuck in my head.

[Fnissalot]

How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

[nickl_2000]

How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

Not in charge, but mine uses the concept of Ki and 2 stolen abilities from the monk. The rest is unique abilities.

It is at a point that some can take a look and tell me problems.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...36&postcount=4

[Ivellius]

How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

My not-very-helpful response would be "recognizable." Like I would consider Superiority Dice good, even if they don't share maneuvers with the Battlemaster; basically, something with any of the class's unique mechanical options works.

Not in charge, but mine uses the concept of Ki and 2 stolen abilities from the monk. The rest is unique abilities.

It is at a point that some can take a look and tell me problems.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...36&postcount=4

I'm not sure I'm sold on the concept, honestly: using Wisdom at 3rd level has the potential to change how the class is played, somewhat, though I don't think that's a huge problem. Ki Focused Strike is probably too strong (it scales super-well on the Fighter chassis), and I'd spread out the options on Ki Manipulation. You're right that there's some redundancy between Mental Resilience and Inner Peace--maybe give them proficiency in Charisma saving throws (rare though they are) at 7th instead? Battlefocus is probably fine, given that it requires an action--mechanically it's unusual to spend all ki without regard to player choice, but I get why it's there (it just leads to some "game-y" interactions like "let me spend some points on my turn so I can 'nova' next turn").

[nickl_2000]

My not-very-helpful response would be "recognizable." Like I would consider Superiority Dice good, even if they don't share maneuvers with the Battlemaster; basically, something with any of the class's unique mechanical options works.



I'm not sure I'm sold on the concept, honestly: using Wisdom at 3rd level has the potential to change how the class is played, somewhat, though I don't think that's a huge problem. Ki Focused Strike is probably too strong (it scales super-well on the Fighter chassis), and I'd spread out the options on Ki Manipulation. You're right that there's some redundancy between Mental Resilience and Inner Peace--maybe give them proficiency in Charisma saving throws (rare though they are) at 7th instead? Battlefocus is probably fine, given that it requires an action--mechanically it's unusual to spend all ki without regard to player choice, but I get why it's there (it just leads to some "game-y" interactions like "let me spend some points on my turn so I can 'nova' next turn").

You actually pointed out a problem with phrasing. My intent here is that the player chooses how much Ki to spend (anywhere between 1 and 10 Ki), and however much they choose to spend is how long the Battlefocus lasts.

I was a little concerned about this class coming online at level 3, but the Shillelagh isn't required that you use it and it's not all that different than an EK in that sense. I dropped the advantage to will saves and instead spread out the level 1 Ki spells and the level 2 Ki spells out to level 7 and level 10 abilities (and dropped the cost on suggestion and calm emotions to add a little power since some was lost.).

I still need to think about the Ki focused strike, it does scale well with a fighter but that was the intent.

[Crisis21]

...I may have to start being a regular to these contests. By some stroke of fate the current contest is perfect for a subclass I made on a lark two days ago.

Forbidden Pact: Wizard... with a hint of Warlock.

Original Post

Contest Entry

[MoleMage]

How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

The contest description says that theme or mechanics or both are valid. If you feel like you can defend it, you're probably okay. As a general rule of thumb I won't disqualify for broad interpretations of theme, but the further afield you go, the less likely people are to vote for it.

...I may have to start being a regular to these contests. By some stroke of fate the current contest is perfect for a subclass I made on a lark two days ago.

Forbidden Pact: Wizard... with a hint of Warlock.

Original Post

Contest Entry

Per rule 4, subclasses which have been posted outside the contest are not allowed as submissions to the contest. It is the intent of this rule that every entry is created uniquely and specifically for the contest.

[Crisis21]

Per rule 4, subclasses which have been posted outside the contest are not allowed as submissions to the contest. It is the intent of this rule that every entry is created uniquely and specifically for the contest.

*Is crushed*

There is nothing I can come up with that would have been more perfect for this contest than that combination.

I'll take down my entry and come up with another, but... yeah.


Edit: Okay, the illegal entry has been removed and I have a few ideas for 1/3 caster archetypes for the Fighter. Would you all prefer to see the Green Knight, the Holy Knight, or the Saturday Knight?