D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[Nicrosil]

Out of curiosity, are Pact Boons considered subclasses?

[MoleMage]

Out of curiosity, are Pact Boons considered subclasses?

Not for the purposes of this contest. Pact Boons are as big a part of warlock class choice as Patron, but they don't have a standard progression. Several Patron submissions have included a related Pact Boon and invocations for it, though.

[Nicrosil]

Not for the purposes of this contest. Pact Boons are as big a part of warlock class choice as Patron, but they don't have a standard progression. Several Patron submissions have included a related Pact Boon and invocations for it, though.

Good to know; thanks!

[SleeplessWriter]

Okay, so I was a little excited for the next contest and just made my whole Shadow Knight subclass in like a day. It was a lot of fun, but it'll probably need a lot of tuning. Pretty sure it's a little over powered for a fighter subclass at the moment. I'll probably have to scale back most of the minions, especially the dragon (yes, you get a dragon as your capstone feature for the subclass).

If it's okay I could post it here in the chat thread a bit early if anyone wants to see it (it would be in a spoiler to save space in this thread, of course). That wouldn't violate any contest rules, right?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Can you post a link to the next contest? What’s the theme?

[SleeplessWriter]

I think he was going to wait until the voting was done before posting the next contest thread, but since there was a tie between themes last time the next theme was already chosen. Calling Card: summoner subclasses. Hope that helps.

I decided to steer away from making a caster since that seemed the easy option and decided I'd try my hand at making a fighter with a few solid minions to back him up.

Also, side note: do we have a theme in the pool for music and performance based subclasses? If not, I'd like to throw The Band in as a theme: whether it's a mariachi bard, a disco monk, a DJ wizard, or Dancing Knights, they'll all fit right in on the stage.

Also as another side note, what are all the themes on the list so far, I'm curious. Or would you prefer to keep them secret until they come up for a vote?

[nickl_2000]

Also as another side note, what are all the themes on the list so far, I'm curious. Or would you prefer to keep them secret until they come up for a vote?

Look in the first post of the thread. All the ideas are in there.

[Amechra]

Oh man, I hope we get Scaling Strangely as the next theme soon. Character options that scale based off stuff like how rich your character is or whatever are my favorite things.

[SleeplessWriter]

Look in the first post of the thread. All the ideas are in there.

Thanks (there's less than I thought there would be).

[MoleMage]

Thanks (there's less than I thought there would be).

I remove old ones as they get used also, so the list has stayed about the same size over time.

[MoleMage]

Only 2 and a bit days to go on voting and it looks like the Tacticon Rogue is in the lead, followed closely by the Demagogue cleric. If you haven't already done so, don't forget to cast your lot!

EDIT: I also updated the class frequency table in the first post with contest 8 and contest 9's results. Our most popular class for submissions is the Barbarian, and out least popular is the Paladin.

[MoleMage]

And voting is now concluded!

In 3rd place, with 9 points, we have Vogie's Arrogate Rogue. Plan elaborate heists! Forgo sneak attack so your allies can get a hit in! Drive vehicles better!

In 2nd place, with 11 points, we have Rawrawrawr's Demagogue Domain. Become your own divinity! Grant your followers spells (or at least spell)!

And our winner for Contest IX is BerzerkerUnit's Tacticon Rogue. Scout out the battlefield! Create tactical vantage points! Uncover the world's secrets!

Congrats to our winners! Keep your eyes open in the next little while for our next contest, which will be Contest X: Calling Card.

Contest 9 is called! We had a good group of entries this time around. Congrats to our winners.


And for those of you who have been making outlines and plotting for Contest X and its pre-determined theme, here's your thread!

[nickl_2000]

Congratulations to the winners! Now, to think of something for the next one.

[nickl_2000]

I've decided on my idea of where I going to go. So, if anyone needs ideas let me know and I can drop some options to you that I didn't decide to go with.

[RickAsWritten]

My submission, the Bladecloak Rogue, is up. The guy that always seems to magically pull knives out of nowhere is one of my favorite fantasy tropes, so I made a subclass about it.

I hope the balance is ok, but this is a first draft, so please let me know if anything is entirely out-of-wack. Thanks.

Roguish Archetype - Bladecloak

[Breccia]

My submission, the Bladecloak Rogue, is up.

Gotta say, when "make a summoner" was the topic, I never would have expected this approach. It's very imaginative!

[Fnissalot]

The bladecloak was a cool take on the theme.

I posted my sorcerer origin "The Lineage". You summon your ancestors spirits into yourself to gain abilities. Comments are welcome.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Lineage Sorcerer is interesting. I might buff the Guardian Spirit as “a shield that adds your Proficiency Bonus to AC.”

As is the Dancer is nearly a 5th level spell effect (Farstep) while the Shield is nearly a 1st (Shield of Faith). Both normally require concentration, both are somehow limited, but the disparity is great.

If that’s still too good then perhaps reduce the Dancer to “move half your speed as a bonus action” that is some functionality without the virtual grapple immunity that comes with a free teleports.

[Fnissalot]

The plan was to balance the effects slightly over a 2nd level spell. Most Sorcerers gets a small situational damage buff at that level, so for the cost of a second level spell slot you get the same effect but for all damaging spells during a short duration. That felt fair to me. In addition, they do not need to be perfect balanced against each other since you can choose every time you pay for the feature which spirit you conjure. IMO it is more important that they fill their niche role then than that they are perfectly balanced against each other.

Lineage Sorcerer is interesting. I might buff the Guardian Spirit as “a shield that adds your Proficiency Bonus to AC.”

That is way too good though. That is just a lot superior to the spell shield. It is like 10 level 1 spell slots when you reached 13th level. Guardian (renamed it to protector since the subclass uses the spell spirit guardians as well) was aimed to be an alternative to shield but with a longer duration. When I was writing the subclass, I almost decreased it to +1 bonus to AC since I thought it might be too good as it was with +2.

As is the Dancer is nearly a 5th level spell effect (Farstep) while the Shield is nearly a 1st (Shield of Faith). Both normally require concentration, both are somehow limited, but the disparity is great.

If that’s still too good then perhaps reduce the Dancer to “move half your speed as a bonus action” that is some functionality without the virtual grapple immunity that comes with a free teleports.

They are not totally free, activating the feature costs as a second level spell slot and 15 feet is a lot less than 60 feet. I was comparing it to expeditious retreat and I think it needs to be better than that as half that spell is not worth 3 sorcery points. Changed dancer to take the disengage action and add a 5ft movement speed increase. That should solve the grapple escape atleast.

[SleeplessWriter]

Huh. Bladecloack is an interesting take. most of the stuff seems relatively balanced at this point, though the 'thunder' option for primordial blades is a bit overpowered at the moment. Just give it a saving throw and let the DM have his golems, that should fix it.

My first reaction to the lineage sorcerer is that it seems a little weak at first level, though if used wisely augury and speak with dead in the early game could be sorta useful, but would start to taper off after about 3rd level and is all but gone after 5th. By then other casters in the party will be able to use them more than you can. The other first level feature may as well just be expertise in the history skill, it would be less clunky and still fit the flavor of the class. I like the touch about heirlooms as spellcasting focuses, though. It really adds a ton of fun, and possibly ridiculous roleplay possibilities. With the right backstory you could use your great, great, great grandma's cookware as a spellcasting focus. Beware the deadly frying pan, it's a wand now, too, not just a blunt weapon and cooking implement.
Also, minor question about tactician: when it says you can't take actions until the end of your next turn does that mean ALL actions, including bonus actions, reactions (if you get another on your turn) and the movement action, or is it supposed to just be the action action. I think it's supposed to be the latter, but I'm unsure how to word that to make it clearer.

All in all things are shaping up to be pretty interesting for this competition.

[Fnissalot]

My first reaction to the lineage sorcerer is that it seems a little weak at first level, though if used wisely augury and speak with dead in the early game could be sorta useful, but would start to taper off after about 3rd level and is all but gone after 5th. By then other casters in the party will be able to use them more than you can. The other first level feature may as well just be expertise in the history skill, it would be less clunky and still fit the flavor of the class. I like the touch about heirlooms as spellcasting focuses, though. It really adds a ton of fun, and possibly ridiculous roleplay possibilities. With the right backstory you could use your great, great, great grandma's cookware as a spellcasting focus. Beware the deadly frying pan, it's a wand now, too, not just a blunt weapon and cooking implement.
Also, minor question about tactician: when it says you can't take actions until the end of your next turn does that mean ALL actions, including bonus actions, reactions (if you get another on your turn) and the movement action, or is it supposed to just be the action action. I think it's supposed to be the latter, but I'm unsure how to word that to make it clearer.

All in all things are shaping up to be pretty interesting for this competition.

Fair points!

Might need to buff the first level a little.

It should only limit you from doing a normal action on your next turn. In practice, it lets you do your action earlier.

[MoleMage]

Well, the first draft of the Hive Conclave is up. I thought about doing a few things, including slime wizard and ghost (or ghost-pirate) rogue and yes, Pokemon ranger, but I decided to go with bees instead.

It's probably a little off-balance, as I haven't actually looked at the numbers yet.

As for the other entries, I'm going to start doing feedback hopefully next week. I normally leave feedback until a bunch of classes are up and complete so I can do it in one big batch, but I'm going to be away from PC during the last week of the contest, and so I'm going to try an earlier start than usual.

[BerzerkerUnit]

That is way too good though. That is just a lot superior to the spell shield. It is like 10 level 1 spell slots when you reached 13th level. Guardian (renamed it to protector since the subclass uses the spell spirit guardians as well) was aimed to be an alternative to shield but with a longer duration. When I was writing the subclass, I almost decreased it to +1 bonus to AC since I thought it might be too good as it was with +2.

I disagree with the balance assessment there. First, to use this you're not using one of the other features, making actually casting shield a better choice most of the time. Second, it's explicitly worse than the shield spell for the majority of the career. Most characters never see 13th level (according to WotC data indicating most campaigns end before 7th level spells come into play).

If you're that concerned about preserving the ascendancy of the Shield spell, then you could have it function like a parry rather than an AC buff, adding prof to AC for the triggering attack only. Still very good, just not as good when you're being focus fired.

Good luck either way!

[BerzerkerUnit]

SleeplessWriter,

I’m liking the look of the Shadowmaster Fighter.

For the dragon you might want to go with a Young Dragon (~CR 5), just change resistance and breath to Necrotic. Maybe add your level in Temp HP and your Proficiency bonus to attacks. Those are the buffs the Hex Spectre gets.

Alternatively you could swap fluff for the half dragon veteran (making it a dragon and being Necrotic).

My vote would be the Young Dragon though since it can serve as a mount.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Really liking the Hive Conclave. I’d like to see a little more variation to include Ants. Maybe if you swapped carrying a Hive for using your body as a Hive ala Ninja Scroll or Naruto.

[MoleMage]

Really liking the Hive Conclave. I’d like to see a little more variation to include Ants. Maybe if you swapped carrying a Hive for using your body as a Hive ala Ninja Scroll or Naruto.

Maybe if I did it tempest barbarian style where you pick an insect but can change it each level? Are there any other options that would be appropriate and distinct enough? Maybe ants, termites, and bee/wasp/hornets? Ants would have more physical damage and moderate toughness, bees would have fly and more poison damage, and termites would be toughest but deal less damage than the other two?

[SleeplessWriter]

SleeplessWriter,

I’m liking the look of the Shadowmaster Fighter.

For the dragon you might want to go with a Young Dragon (~CR 5), just change resistance and breath to Necrotic. Maybe add your level in Temp HP and your Proficiency bonus to attacks. Those are the buffs the Hex Spectre gets.

Alternatively you could swap fluff for the half dragon veteran (making it a dragon and being Necrotic).

My vote would be the Young Dragon though since it can serve as a mount.

Thanks! I couldn't find just a blank slate for a young dragon, but the young white dragon was pretty close, and without the lair actions, ice walk, or burrow or swim speeds it should be a little closer to a 5 CR creature.
I also gave it a tail attack, but I'm not entirely certain I should keep that at this point. Balance wise the tail attack lets the fighter make the same four attacks they could at 20th level, but without all the enchanted gear that they would almost certainly have at that stage of the game, though, I'm not certain if that would be too much. Granted, the six charges it takes to activate this ability aren't that cheap, since it'll take about six short rests to save up, which works out to about two or three days. So while the summoning technically doesn't pass the bag of rats test it does prevent general abuse by making you have to judge when to use resources, such as choosing whether to summon a massive dragon later or adding a few tanky giants to the battle.

That being said, I'm still not sure how well the shadow soldiers will do at higher levels. I thought about maybe giving them undead fortitude as well, which would also up the strategic value of black banners over the other options you get at 10th level. The other possibility I thought of was just a flat boost to their hit points, but I'm hesitant to add more than I have already, as that could easily put it above the shadow giants hp wise.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Maybe if I did it tempest barbarian style where you pick an insect but can change it each level? Are there any other options that would be appropriate and distinct enough? Maybe ants, termites, and bee/wasp/hornets? Ants would have more physical damage and moderate toughness, bees would have fly and more poison damage, and termites would be toughest but deal less damage than the other two?

Ants could do a forced move effect for creeps and objects referencing their great strength and ability to make bridges and rafts with their bodies.
Termites could have object damage and be more effective against constructs (Adamantine Mandibles!)
I’d actually separate bees and wasps, let Wasps do the poison and bees could provide a buff (SUGAR RUSH!)

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thanks! I couldn't find just a blank slate for a young dragon, but the young white dragon was pretty close, and without the lair actions, ice walk, or burrow or swim speeds it should be a little closer to a 5 CR creature.
I also gave it a tail attack, but I'm not entirely certain I should keep that at this point. Balance wise the tail attack lets the fighter make the same four attacks they could at 20th level, but without all the enchanted gear that they would almost certainly have at that stage of the game, though, I'm not certain if that would be too much. Granted, the six charges it takes to activate this ability aren't that cheap, since it'll take about six short rests to save up, which works out to about two or three days. So while the summoning technically doesn't pass the bag of rats test it does prevent general abuse by making you have to judge when to use resources, such as choosing whether to summon a massive dragon later or adding a few tanky giants to the battle.

That being said, I'm still not sure how well the shadow soldiers will do at higher levels. I thought about maybe giving them undead fortitude as well, which would also up the strategic value of black banners over the other options you get at 10th level. The other possibility I thought of was just a flat boost to their hit points, but I'm hesitant to add more than I have already, as that could easily put it above the shadow giants hp wise.

You could allow the Shadow Soldiers to just be Shadows at that level. Glass cannons that everything stops to destroy after they appear. Strength damage on a hit makes them terrifying and having a bunch pop up and attack means you might cut a creep’s effectiveness in half if not outright kill them.

Young Brass or Young White stats should be fine with Temp HP for fighter level and your proficiency or Con bonus to their attack rolls.

If you have the Fighter sacrifice an attack to make the Dragon Attack or breathe, it shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe allow one breath per summon unless the fighter spends his second wind to let it breathe again.

Good luck whatever you decide!

[Vogie]

The Monk Archetype Way of the Gemini is up!

Inspired by the "speed clones" of speedsters, I'm using the Mirror Image mechanics to start the process, which gets more and more complex, until the archetype capstone allows the monk to literally summon a copy of itself.

I'm pretty happy with it, but the wording for Splinter Twin could probably be better.