D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[nickl_2000]

Overall, feels neat but very unbalanced

Tenets- The two tenets seem, kinda oddly in conflict? The only way to really learn about the planes is to visit them, talk to people who have, or talk to people from those planes who have traveled to yours (barring some exceptions like Contact Other Plane), which kinda violates the idea that everyone should stick to their own plane.

Spells- Seem fine balance-wise, though once again, it does feel dissonant with the second tenet to have spells like Summon Greater Demon and Planar Binding, both of which involve forcing entities from other planes to do things for you, typically not on their home plane.

Channel Divinity- This cool, but also way too strong because it never goes away. You're permanently doing extra damage, or imposing disadvantage with a reaction, or gaining free THP. If it lasted a minute or 10, this would be an excellent CD. As is, it's pretty solidly broken.

Planar Aura- The Astral Aura is basically the Conquest Paladin's 15th level ability, but applied to every attack within 10 feet rather than just attacks that hit you. That's, again, preposterously strong. The other Auras are also extremely powerful whenever they're relevant

Empowered Channel Divinity- You get the choice between the ability to basically lock down an attack-based character every turn, 1d4+10 THP at the start of every turn, or 1d4+5 extra damage on every melee weapon attack, which goes on top of things like Improved Divine Smite. This manages to make a broken ability even more so.

Planar Warrior- Seems fine? Resistance to all damage seems excessive, when compared to what other oaths get. It would probably stand out as very strong if the subclass wasn't packed with even stronger abilities

Thanks for the honest review. The channel divinity does say this
"Depending on your choice of planes you align with, you gain the following bonus for the next minute as well as different abilities later on."





I did clarify this ability some.

-Modified the second tenant to make more sense with the spells and the other things that are going on.
-Make it clear the the Channel divinity is only for 1 minute, and the Empowered Channel Divinity is also only active during that same minute.
-Modified to the Plane of Life for positive energy (another name for positive energy plane)
-Reduced some abilities
-Changed the Abyss and Mount Celestia abilities to be unique
-Neutered the auras some
-I left planar warrior alone because it's a capstone and those are supposed to be godlike, and Paladins are even more so. Given the other nerfs I added in, I don't think it is to bad to have full resistances to damage. Also, the any type damage is very fitting, and it is only for 1 minute per day and only on smites. I personally think it is fine as is :)

[AdAstra]

Thanks for the honest review. The channel divinity does say this
"Depending on your choice of planes you align with, you gain the following bonus for the next minute as well as different abilities later on."





I did clarify this ability some.

-Modified the second tenant to make more sense with the spells and the other things that are going on.
-Make it clear the the Channel divinity is only for 1 minute, and the Empowered Channel Divinity is also only active during that same minute.
-Modified to the Plane of Life for positive energy (another name for positive energy plane)
-Reduced some abilities
-Changed the Abyss and Mount Celestia abilities to be unique
-Neutered the auras some
-I left planar warrior alone because it's a capstone and those are supposed to be godlike, and Paladins are even more so. Given the other nerfs I added in, I don't think it is to bad to have full resistances to damage. Also, the any type damage is very fitting, and it is only for 1 minute per day and only on smites. I personally think it is fine as is :)

Seems good! It's a good theme. There are some weird wordings though, like the Abyss channeling dealing fire damage to the "target". Which, given that it's activated by being hit by a melee attack, implies the "target" is you. Something like "the attacker" is probably more clear. The Astral aura also still comes off as a little weird, since no-save permanent damage auras, even weak ones, come off as potentially balance-breaking. Perhaps an Intelligence save? Those are usually weak on most creatures, while still giving a chance to avoid the damage.

[mk333]

Way of the Burning Heart

<SNIP - lots of good feedback>

Thanks! I took your suggestions and did some minor updates, like allowing you to fight back when you take psychic damage, and updating some of the wording.

[nickl_2000]

Seems good! It's a good theme. There are some weird wordings though, like the Abyss channeling dealing fire damage to the "target". Which, given that it's activated by being hit by a melee attack, implies the "target" is you. Something like "the attacker" is probably more clear. The Astral aura also still comes off as a little weird, since no-save permanent damage auras, even weak ones, come off as potentially balance-breaking. Perhaps an Intelligence save? Those are usually weak on most creatures, while still giving a chance to avoid the damage.

Thanks, those are either artifacts of changing to new abilities or from lack of sleep. I will get it cleaned up today

[MoleMage]

Time for feedback!

Spoiler: The Machinist

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So I guess I really need to get the Eberron book so I have the most up-to-date version of artificer. I'll do my best.

• Instead of specifically excluding monstrosities with certain special abilities, why not say the machine cannot inherit those abilities? If someone wants a basilisk robot they can have it that way.
• Machina Rex's abilities follow a clear order from best to worst in my mind (Lead From the Front > Selfless >>> Iron Inertia). Might split Lead From the Front into two options (the combat option for armor and weapon and an option for mounted combat).
• The Infusions have a lot of options, which is good. I'm not sure how powerful artificer infusions are supposed to be, so I can't measure their power level here, but the wording is at least clear on all of them.
• Relentless Steel looks okay to me.
• Amber Shield: I don't see why this needs to require your highest spell slot when it uses spell slot level in its calculation. By the time you get it, a 1st level spell slot isn't going to cut it (since most everything will do more than 15 damage per attack on average anyway) but may still be worth using.

I think you have an interesting class here, but it looks like it derives a lot of power and I'm worried about the fact that it can pretty easily have 3 or 4 minions right out the gate and hit 5 by level 8, each with its own initiative, HP. It's going to bog down combat and the initiative system already has a slight bias towards larger groups.

Spoiler: Oath of Volition

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Doubling down on the theme here, I like it.

• An interesting way to handle oath spells. I don't see a lot of cohesion to the theme in the actual spells offered (especially Speak with Animals, Misty Step, Beacon of Hope). A lot of the rest seem to have the theme of "this spell can be used in two or more different ways", which fits the contest theme but not really the class theme. More choices like Freedom of Movement or Dispel Evil and Good that empower a creature to make their own choices would be better.
• Aura of Liberty III is really really nice. One of the biggest limits on nova damage is how frequently you can use Smite; this effectively increases that number by 50%. Plus, you can pair up with a higher-crit-chance class (like Champion Fighter) to crit-fish more efficiently.
• Invincible Idea: I know from experience that it is hard to fit a paladin transformation in without strong overlap with other paladin transformations, but this is an appropriate choice.

It breaks with the normal structure of a paladin subclass, but it does so in a deliberate and interesting way. I think it's pretty good, but the oath spells could have a clearer connection to the theme in my opinion.

Spoiler: Olympian

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Some formatting, even if it is just bold for feature names and events in bullet points, would make this stand out better.

• New events are the only thing the fighter gets between 3 and 18? Since many of the events are mutually exclusive to use at the same time (such as the Javelin/Shot Put/Discus/Hammer Toss), and others are highly situational (Charioteer will never be used indoors), this means that eventually the fighter is getting no benefit from their class. Also, the total number of events learned is 10, while only 12 are offered. I recommend reducing the number of events learned to one at each stage after 3rd and giving 7, 10, and 15 their own unique features.
• Shot put: 30/80 is not a standard weapon range (ones used in the PHB: 20/60, 25/100, 30/120, 80/320, 100/400, 150/600. Note that all except 20/60 have a long range equal to four times their short range). The cantrip-style progression is a little odd, but I think it works.
• Hammer Toss: the range is, in addition to being nonstandard, a little outrageous. That's basically the equivalent range of a light crossbow or shortbow. Plus, 300 feet is higher than the current hammer toss world record (where accuracy other than "roughly forward" is not an essential factor.
• Discus: I like this one, but once again the range is odd.
• Javelin: This is probably the most straightforward one of the weapon events; it doesn't add a new option, just improves an old one. I think it's fine though.
• Hurdles, sprinting, wrestling: Exactly what they should be for the event.
• Marathon needs to specify what the Con save DC is. While some effects will have one already others (like forced march) are automatic. I recommend a "DC of XX or the effect's DC, whichever is higher." so that very powerful outside effects are still harder to resist.
• Long Jump and High Jump: They're different events, but in terms of mechanics they're pretty weak separated out like that.
• Pole Vault: Pole vaulters can clear distances a fair bit longer than their poles, and besides plenty of staves and polearms don't have reach in 5e. Also, as a mechanic it steps on the toes of both jump events.
• Decathlete: As a capstone it could be a lot stronger. Exhaustion effects are so rare that a lot of tables might never see them, swim speed is very situational. The advantage on saves and athletics are great, and the hour duration means you can probably get it for more than one fight, but something flashier would be nice. A one-hour duration is also very long for a short rest feature.

It's a good concept and the events mostly look fun, but some are clearly superior to others, and many are clearly not meant to be taken together.

Spoiler: The Vestige

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Ah yes, the Binder, that wondrously weird class that I never bothered to learn the mechanics of. Fitting it to warlock seems very appropriate.

• Binding: You had asked if moving Vestige Powers to level 6 seemed like a good idea and I think it might be. Swappable Spells known and skill proficiencies is probably enough to get by with at level 1.
• The current mechanics for vestige spells and vestigial invocation are sufficiently tightly written to not be overpowered, in my opinion.
• Your wording on each individual Vestige Power is fairly tight. You have a couple where you use effect instead of affect, but that's just proofreading. The actual effects are all unique and appropriate as well. I'm really impressed by this.

I could break down each vestige, but honestly I think it's really solid as it currently is, other than maybe moving access to vestige powers to level 6. Very impressive subclass.

Spoiler: IFCC

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Surprisingly, in 13 contests we haven't seen an OotS inspired entry yet.

• Magical Boon: I would make Magical Boon more akin to Mystic Arcanum where you get the ability to cast your chosen spell once and regain the ability to do so on a long rest, rather than tied into the warlock's original spell slots. I tried something similar with Ki Points a while back and it doesn't work as well as it seems like it should.
• Forbidden Knowledge: Interesting, but possibly exploitable. I recommend taking away the ability to use this for initiative.
• Fiendish Focus: This heavily favors Pact of the Blade, but none of the previous features suggest that pact will be important to this subclass. Since Pacts cannot be changed out once chosen, this could lead to IFCC warlocks being unable to effectively use one of their best features.
• Soul Splice: Needs to show a level for when it's gained (I assume 14).

Overall, it offers a lot of power (basically a warlock equivalent of magical secrets that can be changed out every short rest, which is crazy), but is not as evocative as it could be. I'd like to see it with more connection to the three directors and less open-ended.

Spoiler: Fateweaver

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You've given your subclass more subclasses! It's like Totem Warrior all over again!

• Paths of Thread: Charisma mod per long rest is a lot of uses for the features described here. I'd leave it at one or two static uses, possibly gaining an extra use down the line somewhere. All of the features themselves are good though.
• Paths Unwound (Threadweaver): The sorcery points recouped should be based on the relative spell level. As it stands, there's no difference between using a 2nd level burning hands to trigger this (gaining 4-6 sorcery points depending on level) or using a 3rd level. Tying it to spell level difference also means you can avoid creating an infinite feedback loop (a 2nd level slot only requires 3 sorcery points, gaining 4 points from a 2nd level upcast means you can effectively gain 1 sorcery point per round, or enough excess sorcery points for a 5th level spell slot every 54 seconds.
• Followed or Formed: The condition for which thing you get is just great.
• Thread of Destiny: Unless I have some special temporary bonus to Dexterity saving throws, I can't see myself using this. Even if I maxed dexterity, that's only a +5 bonus, meaning that I only have a 50% chance of increasing the DC of a 1st level spell by 5. To increase the DC of a 9th level spell by 1, I'd have a 30% chance. If the spell went off normally without the bonus on a failure it would be a lot more usable.
• Fate Breaker: We looked it up a few contests back and there are not as many spell attack roll spells as it seems like there should be in the higher levels. Even ones that shoot a ray are usually a saving throw after 4th level or so. Upcasting is still a possibility though so I think it would see a lot of use.

It's a good subclass, and other than what I noted above, the choices all seem equivalent and overall appropriate for the level they're gained at.

Spoiler: Planar Warrior

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For such an integral part of the metaphysics of D&D you'd think there'd be more options for planar characters in core.

• The tenets and spells seem fine. There's a formatting error in the second tenet as of right now.
• Channel divinity: So you have effectively five channel divinity options, but choosing one also changes your other features down the line? I like the idea, but 5 seems like a lot of choices for a class that normally gets 2.
• Planar Aura (Astral): This can add up to a lot of reliable damage for an always-on ability.
• Planar Aura (Abyss): Can you only redirect from one creature or from all affected creatures?

Why those five planes specifically? Two are outer planes, one's a transitive plane, one's an inner plane, and assuming the plane of life is the positive plane, it's...I'm not even sure anymore what they classify it as honestly.

Spoiler: Way of the Feyral

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I've not seen a third-casting Druid Monk suggested before, even when we had a whole contest about borrowing other classes' features.

• Primal Weapon: what is the versatile damage die of the quarterstaff? 1d10?
• Natural Connection: The wording could be clearer. A rule of thumb: if you're adding extra things to an ability which costs resources, note the additional cost rather than the total cost. In this case, assuming I understand your intent: "When you use your Flurry of Blows ability, you can spend 1 additional ki point to use a druid cantrip you know in place of one of the unarmed attacks."
• Wild Style (Fox II) is a little confusingly worded.
• Primal Form (Snake) grants resistance to poison and the poisoned condition, but Purity of Body already did that in the baseline monk one level earlier (immunity to both, actually).
• Feyral Form: Should be a minute, as it most resembles a Paladin transformation ability.

An interesting take on a more primal monk.

Spoiler: Way of the Burning Heart

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I should replay the Diablo trilogy...

• Tainted Ki: What about later ki-spending features? Do you also get extra benefit from Deflect Missiles, or Empty Body? Do those still cost HP?
• Haunted Dreams: This is rough. At level 3 a Burning Heart monk has more penalties than benefits, really. I would remove this as a mechanical effect and put it with Demonic Mark as a narrative ability.
• Freed on Death should be a 6th level feature, since that's when it starts to actually do something. You can put the description of what the demon looks like escaping before that in Demonic Mark.
• Tormented Fury has the potential to be incredibly strong, especially combined with the ability of monks to make so many attacks or to Dodge as a bonus action.
• Final Confrontation is a great capstone for the theme of this class.

Overall, I think the class's tradeoffs are too extreme.In practice I worry that either the player will find a way to ignore the penalties in a practical sense (thus becoming too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party) or the penalties will be too much of a burden and render the play of this class unfun.

Spoiler: Slasher

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I tried to do a slasher as a base class a couple years ago. I may revisit my notes based on your stuff here at some point.

• Birth of Horror(Hulking Stalker): Hard to mechanically enforce. How many things do you have to be hidden from? Just one? All that could see you? Can you use Cause Fear on a target that was aware of your position while hidden or just one that you've suprised?
• Implement of Carnage (Killer of Killers): Eldritch Blast is not strong enough to need to be limited per long rest. This is probably one of the weakest options even if it wasn't limited since you can't sneak attack with it or even add an ability bonus to it, unlike all of the others.
• The Reckoning: All of the options are too powerful except Killer of Killers, but Hulking Stalker's resist all physical and The Shape's no limit on sneak attack each round are especially too strong. And for New Nightmare, 7th level spells normally are limited to 1 per long rest (the sole exception of which I'm aware is Monk's Empty body feature at level 18, where the spell instead receives restrictions).
• Reboot: There's no limit on use, which means you are functionally invincible.

Some comments that apply to all of the entries:

• Choose one attibute to govern the subclass's features, or at least for each villain. For example right now, you have Blood Soaked using Int, Dex, and "highest mental stat". Pick one thing and stick with it across all features.
• Everything in Birth of Horror gets a different way to access Cause Fear. This makes a lot of distinct ablities boil down to one spell. Give the class a second feature at level 3 that lets them cast Cause Fear X times per long rest, and build out the individual abilities of the Birth of Horror options.
• Compare abilities you pick not just to other rogue abilities but to abilities from other classes. Want to give someone resistance? How do barbarians use it? Not sure how strong an extra saving throw is? Compare Monk.
• In 5e, limitations per round are just as important as limitations per rest. If you're going to let someone do more in a round than they could normally, be careful. This goes double if you're letting them do something for no action instead of using their bonus action, especially for classes that rely on bonus action availability like Rogue or Monk.

It's a good theme, and you've got the chassis in place and that looks good too. Just needs some balancing tweaks.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Spoiler: Olympian

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Some , even if it is just bold for feature names and events in bullet points, would make this stand out better.

• New events are the only thing the fighter gets between 3 and 18? Since many of the events are mutually exclusive to use at the same time (such as the Javelin/Shot Put/Discus/Hammer Toss), and others are highly situational (Charioteer will never be used indoors), this means that eventually the fighter is getting no benefit from their class. Also, the total number of events learned is 10, while only 12 are offered. I recommend reducing the number of events learned to one at each stage after 3rd and giving 7, 10, and 15 their own unique features.
• Shot put: 30/80 is not a standard weapon range (ones used in the PHB: 20/60, 25/100, 30/120, 80/320, 100/400, 150/600. Note that all except 20/60 have a long range equal to four times their short range). The cantrip-style progression is a little odd, but I think it works.
• Hammer Toss: the range is, in addition to being nonstandard, a little outrageous. That's basically the equivalent range of a light crossbow or shortbow. Plus, 300 feet is higher than the current hammer toss world record (where accuracy other than "roughly forward" is not an essential factor.
• Discus: I like this one, but once again the range is odd.
• Javelin: This is probably the most straightforward one of the weapon events; it doesn't add a new option, just improves an old one. I think it's fine though.
• Hurdles, sprinting, wrestling: Exactly what they should be for the event.
• Marathon needs to specify what the Con save DC is. While some effects will have one already others (like forced march) are automatic. I recommend a "DC of XX or the effect's DC, whichever is higher." so that very powerful outside effects are still harder to resist.
• Long Jump and High Jump: They're different events, but in terms of mechanics they're pretty weak separated out like that.
• Pole Vault: Pole vaulters can clear distances a fair bit longer than their poles, and besides plenty of staves and polearms don't have reach in 5e. Also, as a mechanic it steps on the toes of both jump events.
• Decathlete: As a capstone it could be a lot stronger. Exhaustion effects are so rare that a lot of tables might never see them, swim speed is very situational. The advantage on saves and athletics are great, and the hour duration means you can probably get it for more than one fight, but something flashier would be nice. A one-hour duration is also very long for a short rest feature.

It's a good concept and the events mostly look fun, but some are clearly superior to others, and many are clearly not meant to be taken together.

Thanks so much for the feedback.

Not sure which iteration you were looking at. Since you didn’t mention Discus it probably wasn’t the latest.

General response: you’d have to pretty deliberately choose events so there were regular situations where you got no benefit from the subclass, it’s expected you’ll choose the ones that directly benefit your build focus first. If you’re a polearm fighter, taking pole vault at 3 means you’re looking at a benefit all the time. Further, expertise on Athletics is always on and useful for shoves, trips, and grapples. Same for sprint or the jumps, they’re just permanent upgrades. Some events are stronger than others but it’s very dependent on build focus.

Reducing choices runs contrary to the theme of the class as designed. Some of the events are a means to enhance exploration options, so while you’re likely to acquire all the combat options by 18th (enhancing versatility rather than raw power), it also presents the option of choosing “the best” choices and them MCing out. Like just taking Grappling and the jumps to make a Randy Savage Barbarian MC is something, etc. that’s how I interpreted choice for this exercise.

Ranges for Hammer Toss etc were based on actual Olympic records for distances thrown. I figured since fantasy characters are supposed to be heroic those should be the norm.

Shotput is a thrown attack so it should add the stat bonus. I’ll try and add some clarification.

A few events had already gotten an update, polevault among them, pls check them out.

Good heads up about Marathon. I’ll add a DC.

There are 12 events and by design you can ignore a couple based on campaign or build. A polearm Master definitely wants the pole vault and then doesn’t particularly need the jumps, but taking all three creates pretty spectacular jumps if you want.
A sword and board fighter has no need for pole vault or Charioteering since both hands will be occupied.

Decathalete- persistent advantage on saves and ability checks is strong and the duration and short rest make this a very reliable ability. I think it’s fine as is (until i don’t, then I might change it if I have a better idea).

Thanks again!

[Lvl45DM!]

Time for feedback!

Spoiler: Slasher

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I tried to do a slasher as a base class a couple years ago. I may revisit my notes based on your stuff here at some point.

• Birth of Horror(Hulking Stalker): Hard to mechanically enforce. How many things do you have to be hidden from? Just one? All that could see you? Can you use Cause Fear on a target that was aware of your position while hidden or just one that you've suprised?
• Implement of Carnage (Killer of Killers): Eldritch Blast is not strong enough to need to be limited per long rest. This is probably one of the weakest options even if it wasn't limited since you can't sneak attack with it or even add an ability bonus to it, unlike all of the others.
• The Reckoning: All of the options are too powerful except Killer of Killers, but Hulking Stalker's resist all physical and The Shape's no limit on sneak attack each round are especially too strong. And for New Nightmare, 7th level spells normally are limited to 1 per long rest (the sole exception of which I'm aware is Monk's Empty body feature at level 18, where the spell instead receives restrictions).
• Reboot: There's no limit on use, which means you are functionally invincible.

Some comments that apply to all of the entries:

• Choose one attibute to govern the subclass's features, or at least for each villain. For example right now, you have Blood Soaked using Int, Dex, and "highest mental stat". Pick one thing and stick with it across all features.
• Everything in Birth of Horror gets a different way to access Cause Fear. This makes a lot of distinct ablities boil down to one spell. Give the class a second feature at level 3 that lets them cast Cause Fear X times per long rest, and build out the individual abilities of the Birth of Horror options.
• Compare abilities you pick not just to other rogue abilities but to abilities from other classes. Want to give someone resistance? How do barbarians use it? Not sure how strong an extra saving throw is? Compare Monk.
• In 5e, limitations per round are just as important as limitations per rest. If you're going to let someone do more in a round than they could normally, be careful. This goes double if you're letting them do something for no action instead of using their bonus action, especially for classes that rely on bonus action availability like Rogue or Monk.

It's a good theme, and you've got the chassis in place and that looks good too. Just needs some balancing tweaks.

Thanks. Super helpful! Like, really really helpful.

I fiddled with all the 3rd level abilities. Went for a more consistent mechanic of Cause Fear, 1 spell and one extra little bonus.
Weakened all the Reckoning ablities.

Fixed that Highest mental stat thing. That was the idea of not forcing High Int Rogues to be a Bloodsoaked at every level, but whatever.
Long rest for Reboot. Like, obviously its long rest, stupid of me not to say that. Also added a level of exhaustion to it, since its about as strong as lvl 20 abilities. I wanted a capstone so I mightve gone a little overboard.
Tried to make every ability use an action, without just cutting into a rogues bonus actions.

Boomstick is now an area of effect attack that knocks people prone, which is good for rogues. I made it focused around Use an Object, so a rogue can use their Cunning Action to reload it. So they can shoot every round but at the cost of being sneaky clever rogue. So they can move to range, shoot, knock the guy down, stab them with an offhand weapon. Then next round, reload and shoot and move. The damage is equal to fireball but in a small area, and easily resistable since shotguns rarely actually score the kill on slasher monsters.

Added a new killer. The Creeper.
Jeepers Creepers, where'd you get those peepers,

[SleeplessWriter]

Alright, Gravesinger bard is up. I don't have the tales yet, or a statblock for the Spectral Singers, but other than that I feel pretty good about this one. I mainly want to have this class focus on having some eclectic utility options, with a few good defensive or buff abilities thrown in. The choir I think will be able to be played in one of several ways depending on which tales you have; as an in-your-face army that blocks enemy movement to defend the backline, or as a backline themselves that can buff the party or hinder your opponents from afar. One thing I think might be a good idea is to make them stronger the more that are right next to each other, that way you have to weigh the risks of them getting caught in an AoE versus the benefits of keeping them together.

Feel free to chime in with ideas for the tales, so far I'm thinking I'll have The Jack, The Lover, The Knight Errant, The Performer, and The Betrayed. Might add a few more

[Damon_Tor]

I would have given Killer of Killers a "chain sword" instead of a boomstick. That one line aside, I feel like it's both more iconic and a better fit for a rogue mechanically.

[Lvl45DM!]

I would have given Killer of Killers a "chain sword" instead of a boomstick. That one line aside, I feel like it's both more iconic and a better fit for a rogue mechanically.

I fundamentally agree. But a) it makes the class more interesting to have a option thats not just "i stab em", b) a chain sword isnt worth it unless they lose their hand if we are going for the iconic angle and c) statting up a decent chainsaw is hard, chainsaws make alot of noise, its hard to justify that on a rogue.

But heres a pitch for Asheys chainsaw hand.

Killer of Killers: The corruption that forced you down this path has caused the loss of your hand. This crippling loss grants you disadvantage on all skill or ability checks requiring manual dexterity, including most uses of Thieves Tools. But your cunning and ingenuity has allowed you to replace it with a techno-magical Whirling Blade. Unlike other Implements of Carnage this weapon is permanently summoned. Normally this weapon acts as a +1 Longsword. However with a bonus action the Slasher can activate it. While activated this weapon acts as a +1 greatsword that can be wielded only using the stump of your former hand. It crits on a 19-20. The sheer power of this weapon overcomes resistance to slashing damage, but not immunity. However while activated, the noise and smoke this weapon creates give you disadvantage on any Hide checks and your position is known to all within 100ft. The Whirling Blade can only be active for 1 minute, and can be activated once per long rest.

[Damon_Tor]

I fundamentally agree. But a) it makes the class more interesting to have a option thats not just "i stab em", b) a chain sword isnt worth it unless they lose their hand if we are going for the iconic angle and c) statting up a decent chainsaw is hard, chainsaws make alot of noise, its hard to justify that on a rogue.

But heres a pitch for Asheys chainsaw hand.

Killer of Killers: The corruption that forced you down this path has caused the loss of your hand. This crippling loss grants you disadvantage on all skill or ability checks requiring manual dexterity, including most uses of Thieves Tools. But your cunning and ingenuity has allowed you to replace it with a techno-magical Whirling Blade. Unlike other Implements of Carnage this weapon is permanently summoned. Normally this weapon acts as a +1 Longsword. However with a bonus action the Slasher can activate it. While activated this weapon acts as a +1 greatsword that can be wielded only using the stump of your former hand. It crits on a 19-20. The sheer power of this weapon overcomes resistance to slashing damage, but not immunity. However while activated, the noise and smoke this weapon creates give you disadvantage on any Hide checks and your position is known to all within 100ft. The Whirling Blade can only be active for 1 minute, and can be activated once per long rest.

It doesn't have to be for Ash I guess: the one-handed element isn't something we need in our lives. Maybe do Leatherface? I feel like not having a chainsaw is a disservice to the genre.

[RickAsWritten]

Spoiler: Fateweaver

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I like the three fates reference (assuming it was intentional)! The wording of the Threadcutter's fear ability seems a little odd. If you were to cast a fireball, would every non-fire-immune creature in the radius count as "affected", since the spell does half damage on a successful save?

Thanks for the feedback. Definitely meant to be referential to the three fates.

The fear ability is meant to work on any creature that you do damage to. Even if they pass the save, they still get hurt and they learn just how skilled at snipping the threads of life a Threadcutter is.

Spoiler: Fateweaver

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You've given your subclass more subclasses! It's like Totem Warrior all over again!

• Paths of Thread: Charisma mod per long rest is a lot of uses for the features described here. I'd leave it at one or two static uses, possibly gaining an extra use down the line somewhere. All of the features themselves are good though.
• Paths Unwound (Threadweaver): The sorcery points recouped should be based on the relative spell level. As it stands, there's no difference between using a 2nd level burning hands to trigger this (gaining 4-6 sorcery points depending on level) or using a 3rd level. Tying it to spell level difference also means you can avoid creating an infinite feedback loop (a 2nd level slot only requires 3 sorcery points, gaining 4 points from a 2nd level upcast means you can effectively gain 1 sorcery point per round, or enough excess sorcery points for a 5th level spell slot every 54 seconds.
• Followed or Formed: The condition for which thing you get is just great.
• Thread of Destiny: Unless I have some special temporary bonus to Dexterity saving throws, I can't see myself using this. Even if I maxed dexterity, that's only a +5 bonus, meaning that I only have a 50% chance of increasing the DC of a 1st level spell by 5. To increase the DC of a 9th level spell by 1, I'd have a 30% chance. If the spell went off normally without the bonus on a failure it would be a lot more usable.
• Fate Breaker: We looked it up a few contests back and there are not as many spell attack roll spells as it seems like there should be in the higher levels. Even ones that shoot a ray are usually a saving throw after 4th level or so. Upcasting is still a possibility though so I think it would see a lot of use.

It's a good subclass, and other than what I noted above, the choices all seem equivalent and overall appropriate for the level they're gained at.

Thanks for the feedback Mole. Going through the points:

• It's a lot of uses, but all the other Sorcerer subclasses get two abilities at 1st level, so I think it's mostly justified. Because of the different options to choose from, I decided to do one stronger ability instead of two.
• Good suggestion. Changing it now.
• Thanks. I originally just had a single capstone, but felt that the choices should mean something. You see skill trees a lot in video games, but there aren't any in D&D (5e at least).
• Another good suggestion. Revising.
• I just went through them all and was super surprised by this. Due to how limited it is and how there is a spell slot cost baked-in to the ability, do you think I could get rid of the "once per rest" limit and just have it as an option for any spell that's cast? Or maybe Cha-mod uses per rest? Also I'm changing the name to Fate's Needle.

[nickl_2000]

Time for feedback!

SNIP

Thanks for the feedback, I won't get changes in before the end of the contest but I will save them for the long term effects of the subclass.

To the question of why those planes, because when looking through they seemed the easiest to make abilities off of. Other than that there is no rhyme or reason to it.

[Lvl45DM!]

It doesn't have to be for Ash I guess: the one-handed element isn't something we need in our lives. Maybe do Leatherface? I feel like not having a chainsaw is a disservice to the genre.

Funnily enough chainsaws are relatively rare. Its more of a meme. Anyway, I might just leave it. Maybe ill homebrew a magic item rather than make it a class feature

[Damon_Tor]

It's hard to imagine a chainsaw would be viable for a rogue, both because of the noise and the weight.

Here's my crack at one:

Chainsword (greatsword)
A jagged chain runs along the length of this weapon, which roars into motion when activated. You cannot attack with this weapon while it isn't active. Activating this weapon requires an action. You can deactivate it as a bonus action, or it automatically deactivates if it isn't being held in two hands. While active, it generates a loud sound that can be heard from 100 feet away and deafens all creatures within 5 feet (including the wielder).

When you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage, that creature becones mangled, and continues to be mangled as long as you don't miss it with an attack with your chainsword, attack another creature with your chainsword, or become further from the creature than 5 feet. You have advantage on attacking mangled creatures with your chainsword. While being mangled, that creature takes 1d6 extra damage for each time it has been hit by the chainsword since the mangling began.

So the first hit is 2d6, standard greatsword damage, and the mangling begins. The second hit is 3d6, the third is 4d6. If the mangling ends, whether that's because he gets away or because you miss an attack or do something else, it drops back down to 2d6.

[Lvl45DM!]

It's hard to imagine a chainsaw would be viable for a rogue, both because of the noise and the weight.

Here's my crack at one:

Chainsword (greatsword)
A jagged chain runs along the length of this weapon, which roars into motion when activated. You cannot attack with this weapon while it isn't active. Activating this weapon requires an action. You can deactivate it as a bonus action, or it automatically deactivates if it isn't being held in two hands. While active, it generates a loud sound that can be heard from 100 feet away and deafens all creatures within 5 feet (including the wielder).

When you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage, that creature becones mangled, and continues to be mangled as long as you don't miss it with an attack with your chainsword, attack another creature with your chainsword, or become further from the creature than 5 feet. You have advantage on attacking mangled creatures with your chainsword. While being mangled, that creature takes 1d6 extra damage for each time it has been hit by the chainsword since the mangling began.

So the first hit is 2d6, standard greatsword damage, and the mangling begins. The second hit is 3d6, the third is 4d6. If the mangling ends, whether that's because he gets away or because you miss an attack or do something else, it drops back down to 2d6.

Ooooh. That has a VERY slasher vibe. Though the 5 feet thing needs tweaking. If you end your turn more than 10 feet away from them feels better. So you can chase them. And since mangled gives advantage SA for days.

Paying advice forward. Take it with a grain of salt.

Spoiler: Pact of the Skin

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I salute your creativity good sir/madam!
Wild shape into one beast as a Pact seems like a perfect amount of flavour and utility for a warlock.
Skinwalker especially seems interestingly balanced though dependent on DM giving out gold to use, but thats no different from a Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock.
I think the biggest issue is that youre limited to Beasts or Monstrosities. A Fiendlock might want to end up as a...well...fiend. And Good Warlocks might struggle with having to skin monsters to achieve the higher tiers of power. So maybe Acolyte of the Skin would work if they could choose creature type, obviously restricted from oozes, constructs and maybe dragons/undead. And maybe an alternative to Skinwalker of receiving parts of a creature as a gift. Maybe i help the Pegasi out and it gives me a feather yknow? Something less...murdery.
And just clarifying. You can switch forms infinite times without rest yeah?

[AdAstra]

Time for feedback!

Spoiler: The Machinist

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So I guess I really need to get the Eberron book so I have the most up-to-date version of artificer. I'll do my best.

• Instead of specifically excluding monstrosities with certain special abilities, why not say the machine cannot inherit those abilities? If someone wants a basilisk robot they can have it that way.
• Machina Rex's abilities follow a clear order from best to worst in my mind (Lead From the Front > Selfless >>> Iron Inertia). Might split Lead From the Front into two options (the combat option for armor and weapon and an option for mounted combat).
• The Infusions have a lot of options, which is good. I'm not sure how powerful artificer infusions are supposed to be, so I can't measure their power level here, but the wording is at least clear on all of them.
• Relentless Steel looks okay to me.
• Amber Shield: I don't see why this needs to require your highest spell slot when it uses spell slot level in its calculation. By the time you get it, a 1st level spell slot isn't going to cut it (since most everything will do more than 15 damage per attack on average anyway) but may still be worth using.

I think you have an interesting class here, but it looks like it derives a lot of power and I'm worried about the fact that it can pretty easily have 3 or 4 minions right out the gate and hit 5 by level 8, each with its own initiative, HP. It's going to bog down combat and the initiative system already has a slight bias towards larger groups.

Spoiler: Oath of Volition

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Doubling down on the theme here, I like it.

• An interesting way to handle oath spells. I don't see a lot of cohesion to the theme in the actual spells offered (especially Speak with Animals, Misty Step, Beacon of Hope). A lot of the rest seem to have the theme of "this spell can be used in two or more different ways", which fits the contest theme but not really the class theme. More choices like Freedom of Movement or Dispel Evil and Good that empower a creature to make their own choices would be better.
• Aura of Liberty III is really really nice. One of the biggest limits on nova damage is how frequently you can use Smite; this effectively increases that number by 50%. Plus, you can pair up with a higher-crit-chance class (like Champion Fighter) to crit-fish more efficiently.
• Invincible Idea: I know from experience that it is hard to fit a paladin transformation in without strong overlap with other paladin transformations, but this is an appropriate choice.

It breaks with the normal structure of a paladin subclass, but it does so in a deliberate and interesting way. I think it's pretty good, but the oath spells could have a clearer connection to the theme in my opinion.

Spoiler: Olympian

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Some formatting, even if it is just bold for feature names and events in bullet points, would make this stand out better.

• New events are the only thing the fighter gets between 3 and 18? Since many of the events are mutually exclusive to use at the same time (such as the Javelin/Shot Put/Discus/Hammer Toss), and others are highly situational (Charioteer will never be used indoors), this means that eventually the fighter is getting no benefit from their class. Also, the total number of events learned is 10, while only 12 are offered. I recommend reducing the number of events learned to one at each stage after 3rd and giving 7, 10, and 15 their own unique features.
• Shot put: 30/80 is not a standard weapon range (ones used in the PHB: 20/60, 25/100, 30/120, 80/320, 100/400, 150/600. Note that all except 20/60 have a long range equal to four times their short range). The cantrip-style progression is a little odd, but I think it works.
• Hammer Toss: the range is, in addition to being nonstandard, a little outrageous. That's basically the equivalent range of a light crossbow or shortbow. Plus, 300 feet is higher than the current hammer toss world record (where accuracy other than "roughly forward" is not an essential factor.
• Discus: I like this one, but once again the range is odd.
• Javelin: This is probably the most straightforward one of the weapon events; it doesn't add a new option, just improves an old one. I think it's fine though.
• Hurdles, sprinting, wrestling: Exactly what they should be for the event.
• Marathon needs to specify what the Con save DC is. While some effects will have one already others (like forced march) are automatic. I recommend a "DC of XX or the effect's DC, whichever is higher." so that very powerful outside effects are still harder to resist.
• Long Jump and High Jump: They're different events, but in terms of mechanics they're pretty weak separated out like that.
• Pole Vault: Pole vaulters can clear distances a fair bit longer than their poles, and besides plenty of staves and polearms don't have reach in 5e. Also, as a mechanic it steps on the toes of both jump events.
• Decathlete: As a capstone it could be a lot stronger. Exhaustion effects are so rare that a lot of tables might never see them, swim speed is very situational. The advantage on saves and athletics are great, and the hour duration means you can probably get it for more than one fight, but something flashier would be nice. A one-hour duration is also very long for a short rest feature.

It's a good concept and the events mostly look fun, but some are clearly superior to others, and many are clearly not meant to be taken together.

Spoiler: The Vestige

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Ah yes, the Binder, that wondrously weird class that I never bothered to learn the mechanics of. Fitting it to warlock seems very appropriate.

• Binding: You had asked if moving Vestige Powers to level 6 seemed like a good idea and I think it might be. Swappable Spells known and skill proficiencies is probably enough to get by with at level 1.
• The current mechanics for vestige spells and vestigial invocation are sufficiently tightly written to not be overpowered, in my opinion.
• Your wording on each individual Vestige Power is fairly tight. You have a couple where you use effect instead of affect, but that's just proofreading. The actual effects are all unique and appropriate as well. I'm really impressed by this.

I could break down each vestige, but honestly I think it's really solid as it currently is, other than maybe moving access to vestige powers to level 6. Very impressive subclass.

Spoiler: IFCC

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Surprisingly, in 13 contests we haven't seen an OotS inspired entry yet.

• Magical Boon: I would make Magical Boon more akin to Mystic Arcanum where you get the ability to cast your chosen spell once and regain the ability to do so on a long rest, rather than tied into the warlock's original spell slots. I tried something similar with Ki Points a while back and it doesn't work as well as it seems like it should.
• Forbidden Knowledge: Interesting, but possibly exploitable. I recommend taking away the ability to use this for initiative.
• Fiendish Focus: This heavily favors Pact of the Blade, but none of the previous features suggest that pact will be important to this subclass. Since Pacts cannot be changed out once chosen, this could lead to IFCC warlocks being unable to effectively use one of their best features.
• Soul Splice: Needs to show a level for when it's gained (I assume 14).

Overall, it offers a lot of power (basically a warlock equivalent of magical secrets that can be changed out every short rest, which is crazy), but is not as evocative as it could be. I'd like to see it with more connection to the three directors and less open-ended.

Spoiler: Fateweaver

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You've given your subclass more subclasses! It's like Totem Warrior all over again!

• Paths of Thread: Charisma mod per long rest is a lot of uses for the features described here. I'd leave it at one or two static uses, possibly gaining an extra use down the line somewhere. All of the features themselves are good though.
• Paths Unwound (Threadweaver): The sorcery points recouped should be based on the relative spell level. As it stands, there's no difference between using a 2nd level burning hands to trigger this (gaining 4-6 sorcery points depending on level) or using a 3rd level. Tying it to spell level difference also means you can avoid creating an infinite feedback loop (a 2nd level slot only requires 3 sorcery points, gaining 4 points from a 2nd level upcast means you can effectively gain 1 sorcery point per round, or enough excess sorcery points for a 5th level spell slot every 54 seconds.
• Followed or Formed: The condition for which thing you get is just great.
• Thread of Destiny: Unless I have some special temporary bonus to Dexterity saving throws, I can't see myself using this. Even if I maxed dexterity, that's only a +5 bonus, meaning that I only have a 50% chance of increasing the DC of a 1st level spell by 5. To increase the DC of a 9th level spell by 1, I'd have a 30% chance. If the spell went off normally without the bonus on a failure it would be a lot more usable.
• Fate Breaker: We looked it up a few contests back and there are not as many spell attack roll spells as it seems like there should be in the higher levels. Even ones that shoot a ray are usually a saving throw after 4th level or so. Upcasting is still a possibility though so I think it would see a lot of use.

It's a good subclass, and other than what I noted above, the choices all seem equivalent and overall appropriate for the level they're gained at.

Spoiler: Planar Warrior

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For such an integral part of the metaphysics of D&D you'd think there'd be more options for planar characters in core.

• The tenets and spells seem fine. There's a formatting error in the second tenet as of right now.
• Channel divinity: So you have effectively five channel divinity options, but choosing one also changes your other features down the line? I like the idea, but 5 seems like a lot of choices for a class that normally gets 2.
• Planar Aura (Astral): This can add up to a lot of reliable damage for an always-on ability.
• Planar Aura (Abyss): Can you only redirect from one creature or from all affected creatures?

Why those five planes specifically? Two are outer planes, one's a transitive plane, one's an inner plane, and assuming the plane of life is the positive plane, it's...I'm not even sure anymore what they classify it as honestly.

Spoiler: Way of the Feyral

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I've not seen a third-casting Druid Monk suggested before, even when we had a whole contest about borrowing other classes' features.

• Primal Weapon: what is the versatile damage die of the quarterstaff? 1d10?
• Natural Connection: The wording could be clearer. A rule of thumb: if you're adding extra things to an ability which costs resources, note the additional cost rather than the total cost. In this case, assuming I understand your intent: "When you use your Flurry of Blows ability, you can spend 1 additional ki point to use a druid cantrip you know in place of one of the unarmed attacks."
• Wild Style (Fox II) is a little confusingly worded.
• Primal Form (Snake) grants resistance to poison and the poisoned condition, but Purity of Body already did that in the baseline monk one level earlier (immunity to both, actually).
• Feyral Form: Should be a minute, as it most resembles a Paladin transformation ability.

An interesting take on a more primal monk.

Spoiler: Way of the Burning Heart

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I should replay the Diablo trilogy...

• Tainted Ki: What about later ki-spending features? Do you also get extra benefit from Deflect Missiles, or Empty Body? Do those still cost HP?
• Haunted Dreams: This is rough. At level 3 a Burning Heart monk has more penalties than benefits, really. I would remove this as a mechanical effect and put it with Demonic Mark as a narrative ability.
• Freed on Death should be a 6th level feature, since that's when it starts to actually do something. You can put the description of what the demon looks like escaping before that in Demonic Mark.
• Tormented Fury has the potential to be incredibly strong, especially combined with the ability of monks to make so many attacks or to Dodge as a bonus action.
• Final Confrontation is a great capstone for the theme of this class.

Overall, I think the class's tradeoffs are too extreme.In practice I worry that either the player will find a way to ignore the penalties in a practical sense (thus becoming too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party) or the penalties will be too much of a burden and render the play of this class unfun.

Spoiler: Slasher

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I tried to do a slasher as a base class a couple years ago. I may revisit my notes based on your stuff here at some point.

• Birth of Horror(Hulking Stalker): Hard to mechanically enforce. How many things do you have to be hidden from? Just one? All that could see you? Can you use Cause Fear on a target that was aware of your position while hidden or just one that you've suprised?
• Implement of Carnage (Killer of Killers): Eldritch Blast is not strong enough to need to be limited per long rest. This is probably one of the weakest options even if it wasn't limited since you can't sneak attack with it or even add an ability bonus to it, unlike all of the others.
• The Reckoning: All of the options are too powerful except Killer of Killers, but Hulking Stalker's resist all physical and The Shape's no limit on sneak attack each round are especially too strong. And for New Nightmare, 7th level spells normally are limited to 1 per long rest (the sole exception of which I'm aware is Monk's Empty body feature at level 18, where the spell instead receives restrictions).
• Reboot: There's no limit on use, which means you are functionally invincible.

Some comments that apply to all of the entries:

• Choose one attibute to govern the subclass's features, or at least for each villain. For example right now, you have Blood Soaked using Int, Dex, and "highest mental stat". Pick one thing and stick with it across all features.
• Everything in Birth of Horror gets a different way to access Cause Fear. This makes a lot of distinct ablities boil down to one spell. Give the class a second feature at level 3 that lets them cast Cause Fear X times per long rest, and build out the individual abilities of the Birth of Horror options.
• Compare abilities you pick not just to other rogue abilities but to abilities from other classes. Want to give someone resistance? How do barbarians use it? Not sure how strong an extra saving throw is? Compare Monk.
• In 5e, limitations per round are just as important as limitations per rest. If you're going to let someone do more in a round than they could normally, be careful. This goes double if you're letting them do something for no action instead of using their bonus action, especially for classes that rely on bonus action availability like Rogue or Monk.

It's a good theme, and you've got the chassis in place and that looks good too. Just needs some balancing tweaks.

Thanks for the feedback! My idea with the oath spells was to try and draw from the divine, natural, and arcane spell lists when possible, representing choice that way. In addition, spells like misty step and bigby's hand were chosen for their value in escaping certain kinds of restraints, as well as spells that had a protective or safeguarding aspect.

[Segev]

Paying advice forward. Take it with a grain of salt.

Spoiler: Pact of the Skin

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I salute your creativity good sir/madam!
Wild shape into one beast as a Pact seems like a perfect amount of flavour and utility for a warlock.
Skinwalker especially seems interestingly balanced though dependent on DM giving out gold to use, but thats no different from a Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock.
I think the biggest issue is that youre limited to Beasts or Monstrosities. A Fiendlock might want to end up as a...well...fiend. And Good Warlocks might struggle with having to skin monsters to achieve the higher tiers of power. So maybe Acolyte of the Skin would work if they could choose creature type, obviously restricted from oozes, constructs and maybe dragons/undead. And maybe an alternative to Skinwalker of receiving parts of a creature as a gift. Maybe i help the Pegasi out and it gives me a feather yknow? Something less...murdery.
And just clarifying. You can switch forms infinite times without rest yeah?

Thanks for the feedback. :) This is the first time I've submitted something to these contests with a really solid feeling about the mechanics, and even so, I feel like I'm risking being overpowered.

Since you spoilered your feedback, I'll spoiler my reply. (Not sure if there's rules for this contest about it, convention, or if it was just space-saving; I haven't got a good feel for the 'way things are done' in this thread yet.)

Spoiler

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To answer your last question first, yes, it's at-will, no-rest shifting, paid for by being limited in choice and by gold costs to get new forms. I'm a little unsure if I've overpriced the forms; I could see as little as 100x rather than 1000x, but I figured it's better to err on the side of caution, here.

An Invocation for Fiends (and other Types) might be a good one. Dragons might be fun as a sort-of capstone-level thing. 18th or even 20th level requirement? I hesitate to make it too "clean" to get gifts from other creatures, because there is a hidden cost in real play to having to actually kill something: you lose the potential ally.

The choice of Monstrosities was, however, based on the fact that they are, essentially, "magical Beasts," so seem the most natural upgrade from "only Beasts." While some are fully intelligent, they retain a quality of "animalistic" to them that keeps the Skinwalker vibe.

I almost made one that let you skin humanoids to assume their forms as disguises, using a more "keep your own stats, but you look like them and maybe get their languages and/or one of their proficiencies" approach, but I felt that it was a little too dark for something that other Invocations can already do most of. The disguise self and alter self Invocations handle looking like others much better, and still "fit" a theme with this Pact without being locked to it nor required choices. I feel like picking your type goes into similar territory.

Maybe something in Acolyte of the Skin that gives a "perk" for each kind of Patron. Fiendlocks can skin fiends. Feylocks can do so with Fey, and GoOlocks with Aberrations. Not sure what to do for Celestial Patron and (ugh) Hexblades.

Or maybe it should be a separate invocation that requires Acolyte of the Skin and a particular Patron for each kind:

• "Fleshwarper" for GoOlocks, lets them add Aberrations to their options and...something about grafts, I think. Not sure yet.
• "Faerie Bargains" for Feylocks, lets them add Fey and get their forms from gifts and bargains with creatures instead of skinning them.
• "Inner Demon" for Fiendlocks (alternate name as "Inner Devil" or something for different Patrons), which adds Fiends to their list, but also lets them pick one kind of Fiend that they could hunt and have that become their "true" form. They shed their own skin, which becomes something they can don or doff, and which is replaced like a fiend's skin would be if damaged to the point they can't use it.
  
  • Not sure I like this one; the theme is nice, but the power seems too high.
• "Last Rites" for Celestial-Patron Warlocks: they add Celestials to their list, and don't have to participate in the killing of the creature. If they find the corpse of one that died within one week per Warlock level, they can perform the ritual over the corpse, and most of the corpse will vanish to the Celestial Planes while an appropriate token is left behind. (Costs are as normal.) Celestials may voluntarily stand for the ritual and be sent back to their home plane, otherwise unharmed, leaving their token behind.
• I can't think of anything good for Hexblades. I blame their unfocused, slapped-together fluff that makes no sense.

[Damon_Tor]

Pact of the Skin

This is rad and I love it, so this is coming from a place of love; this steps on the druid's toes, hard. That's not an unfixable problem, that's just a balance problem, getting the numbers right.

While I sympathize with the idea that the Pact Boon is a subclass, power-wise that just isn't so: before invocations, a pact boon is somewhere between the power level of a fighting style and a feat. Giving a warlock a 1 CR beast form at level 3 (with no restrictions on movement modes no less) makes them more powerful in beast form than a standard druid, and on-par with a moon druid, which is the subclass devoted to the concept. Skinwalker allows the warlock to keep pace with the Moon Druid at every level, for the cost of one of the warlock's many invocations.

I consider the lack of being able to heal the beast for free twice on short rests is a fair compensation for having the duration be unlimited, so I'm not worried about that part.

Gold cost as a balancing factor isn't a good idea; you're putting the DM in the position of having to measure out the gold you get, making sure you don't get too much to make you overpowered or so little you don't get to use your features. Published adventures are all over the place in terms of gold reward: there's simply not a "wealth by level" concept in 5e. Start your character with one adventure and have more money than you can ever spend by the end of it, or start with another and have some cool magic items but no liquid readymoney. The cost a Tome warlock pays for rituals is a poor comparison: rituals are generally not relevant to combat: a Tomelock who finishes Dragonheist isn't going to break anything by filling his tome with every ritual in the game.

In my opinion: You should limit the basic skin to a CR of 1/4, no swim speeds, no flying speeds. This puts you on even footing with a standard druid of the same level. Make skinwalker available immediately, but only allow skins with a CR equal to 1/4 your warlock level and reduce the gold cost significantly, just enough of a cost to keep the warlock from skinning everything it kills and carrying around 20 pounds of furry hats, maybe 50gp per CR. Continue to prohibit swim and flight speeds. You can have the swim speeds and flying speeds unlock at levels 4 and 8 automatically if you like, but I would probably require their own invocations if it were me.

And I agree with Lvl45DM, patron-specific invocations allowing for appropriate non-beast forms is a good idea, but I also think the limit of 1/4 warlock level CR should be enforced at all levels and there should be a limit set on skins that get spellcasting as a part of their stat block. Maybe you can use skins to access spells you couldn't ordinarily, but you still need to use your normal spell slots to cast them, and thus need to have spell slots of an appropriate level. So a feylock could turn into a pixie (CR 1/4) at any level assuming he has the appropriate invocation and has skinned one (or whatever), and would have access to all the pixie's normal spells, but would have to use his own slots to cast them, and could not cast the higher level spells (such as polymorph) until he had the spell slots with which to do so.

I'll also agree with another one of Lvl45DM's points, maybe an explicit "skinning" shouldn't be necessary in all cases. I would think each patron would have its own specific invocation allowing that patron's creature types form to be worn, and the specific rules for those particular skins can be outlined in those invocations. So the Fiend would have different rules and procedures for wearing fiends than the Archfey would for wearing fey.

[Segev]

I rather dearly want it to have the swim or fly speed; that's one of the primary reasons it is, by default, only one form, and they have to wait a couple levels before Invocations let them get more than one.

Putting the fly/swim speed restrictions on Invocation-granted forms acquired by hunting is pretty reasonable.

The gp-cost thing is something I feel is valid - in part for the reason you, Damon_Tor, point out that it's there to keep them from getting 500 fur hats - because not only the Tomelock but also Wizards have a similar gate to their power expansion. But I will consider the clipping to 50 gp per CR (minimum 50 gp).

1/4 Warlock level is not a bad limitation. I'll point out that that's still just shy of CR 1 at level 3, meaning CR 1/2 is still on the table. I think that restricts the Giant Spider, but (barring the flight limit) would allow a Giant Owl.

[Damon_Tor]

I rather dearly want it to have the swim or fly speed; that's one of the primary reasons it is, by default, only one form, and they have to wait a couple levels before Invocations let them get more than one.

You could have flying forms require their own invocation, one that isn't level gated. So they'd they'd be able to fly (or swim) with it right out of the box, but it would come at an opportunity cost. I still don't think that would be fair to druids, but at least it would feel more fair.

The gp-cost thing is something I feel is valid - in part for the reason you, Damon_Tor, point out that it's there to keep them from getting 500 fur hats - because not only the Tomelock but also Wizards have a similar gate to their power expansion. But I will consider the clipping to 50 gp per CR (minimum 50 gp).

Wizards have their full range of power with zero gold: the spells they add to their spellbook at each levelup are entirely free. That means they will always have enough spells to prepare their full allotment everyday and still have plenty left over. What they gain by spending gold is more options, not more power. A warlock level 9 who can spend 3000 gold can become a polar bear, a warlock who cannot spend that gold cannot. Any wizard who wants to take Polymorph at level 7 can add it to their spellbook for free: he only needs to spend gold if he wants Polymorph AND two other 4th level spells.

1/4 Warlock level is not a bad limitation.

It isn't far off, it's better than a vanilla druid can manage at that level, but still worse than a moon druid, and I think that's the sweet spot you should be aiming for.

[Segev]

You could have flying forms require their own invocation, one that isn't level gated. So they'd they'd be able to fly (or swim) with it right out of the box, but it would come at an opportunity cost. I still don't think that would be fair to druids, but at least it would feel more fair.

I was really hoping that a Pact of the Skin warlock who took no specialty invocations for it would have one singular form that might be acquatic or avian if he chose, but I do see your point.

Part of where I'm coming from on giving Warlocks a leg up in some areas of this is precedent with a mere INVOCATION overshadowing an entire subclass from level 2-10: Misty Visions, single-handedly, makes a Warlock a superior illusionist to the Illusionist from levels 2-4, and from levels 6-10 it just takes minor illusion to provide sound for it to keep up and stay ahead of major image and its not-at-will casting limitation. It's not until major image can be made permanent at 11th level that the Illusionist finally truly catches up with and overtakes the Warlock with Misty Visions and minor illusion.

So giving a Warlock flight/swimming early and an at-will change to one specific form (where druids have any form they have ever seen, within certain limits) feels just the right amount of "unfair" to me. Though giving it as an Invocation tax might also work.

Wizards have their full range of power with zero gold: the spells they add to their spellbook at each levelup are entirely free. That means they will always have enough spells to prepare their full allotment everyday and still have plenty left over. What they gain by spending gold is more options, not more power. A warlock level 9 who can spend 3000 gold can become a polar bear, a warlock who cannot spend that gold cannot. Any wizard who wants to take Polymorph at level 7 can add it to their spellbook for free: he only needs to spend gold if he wants Polymorph AND two other 4th level spells.

Maybe having each Invocation give a freebie form, so that the gold to add new ones is like the wizard's spellbook expansions, would do it?

It isn't far off, it's better than a vanilla druid can manage at that level, but still worse than a moon druid, and I think that's the sweet spot you should be aiming for.

Agreed, that's a good spot. I'm aiming for an overlap where the warlock has some perks the druid doesn't, but can't do everything the druid can, and where the druid will leave him behind at higher levels. Or at least take a truly distinct direction.


Edit: Redid it, incorporating suggestions given. Reduced things to 1/4 level CR, and added "free" forms to the expansion Invocations as well as altering the costs. I think Fleshwarper might be a little too much, but it really just is more choices until you start hunting down the Big Three aberrations for their body parts.

[Segev]

I feel I should do my best to give my own feedback on classes. I apologize to the Mechanist; I don't know the Artificer well enough to comment on the subclass.

I've only got time to comment on the Oath of Volition for now, so more will come later!

Oath of Volition

I like the theme, here, and how it is a nod to the contest theme in and of itself. The idea of upholding agency and responsibility together seem very Paladin to me.

Oath Spells
The notion of being able to prepare from a very limited list what your Oath Spells are is a unique one for Paladins (or Domain Clerics, or Land Druids, or....) and plays interestingly with the theme of making a choice. I can already see that the choice here is not in the build but at a particular time.

That said, some of the spells in the list seem...off...to me. Speak with animals doesn't make a lot of sense outside of the "be creative" admonishment from one of the Oath Tennets, and that particular justification could justify literally any spell. I think this is an athematic choice. I feel similarly about Bigby's hand, which has little to do with the idea of choice, freedom, or responsibility. The biggest offender, though, is blindness/deafness, which seems to me to fly in the face of the themes of the subclass by denying others' agency through restricting their ability to make informed choices.

I would suggest replacing speak with animals with something that grants more mobility, like jump, longstrider, or expeditious retreat. Maybe calm emotions or augury in place of blindness/deafness; the former clears heads and enables more rational and thus responsible decision-making, while the latter gives more information and thus increases agency. I think awaken, commune, or scrying would fit better than Bigby's hand, for different reasons.

Channel Divinity
Each of these options seems reasonable for the theme. But just adding a third option isn't adding "choice," but rather versatility and power. It's a little awkward, but I might suggest that they must pick 2 of the three at the start of each day. Perhaps their list of Oath Spells depends on which one they do not choose, rather than being a mix-and-match grab-bag, as well? This would make there be a meaningful choice each morning, as their spells are thematically linked to the two Channels they chose to have.

Aura of Liberty
I like this; it works as-is. You might consider, if you take my suggestion of linking spells to the two Channels they chose, linking an aura to the two of them, as well. Make it one big choice each day. But that's for thematic reasons, not for balance ones, unlike my suggestion about making them pick 2/3 of the Channels.

Inexorable March
I like the movement part of this. I like it a lot; it is evocative with the name and suits the theme of the subclass. But I feel like the attack options at the end are...tacked-on. Shoving people feels more like something the Unstoppable Charge divinity channel is about; there's nothing "inexorably marching" about it, and grappling, while potent, once again feels the opposite of what this subclass is about: grappling is enforcing your will on others, seizing control of their movement from them.

I suggest an alternative:

Starting at 15th level, you can ignore difficult terrain, including aerial hazards that would interfere with flight. When you move through it, you may select any number of creatures you can see. Your undaunted determination inspires them if they wish to follow you, and they may treat terrain through which you've moved as if it were normal (not difficult) for the next minute. If you are mounted, this feature applies to your mount and terrain through which it moves. When you use your Unstoppable Charge channel divinity, you can try to Shove any creature you hit with a melee weapon attack as a result of that action, even if you hit multiple creatures.

I removed all grapple stuff from it, and gave it a way to allow the paladin to increase the volition of others by letting them follow his example if they choose. Also did something with flying, because by this level, flight is a thing that happens.

Invincible Idea
This one's pretty cool. Here's where you could unlock access to all three Channel Divinities while it's active, or something similar.

[AdAstra]

I feel I should do my best to give my own feedback on classes. I apologize to the Mechanist; I don't know the Artificer well enough to comment on the subclass.

I've only got time to comment on the Oath of Volition for now, so more will come later!

Oath of Volition

I like the theme, here, and how it is a nod to the contest theme in and of itself. The idea of upholding agency and responsibility together seem very Paladin to me.

Oath Spells
The notion of being able to prepare from a very limited list what your Oath Spells are is a unique one for Paladins (or Domain Clerics, or Land Druids, or....) and plays interestingly with the theme of making a choice. I can already see that the choice here is not in the build but at a particular time.

That said, some of the spells in the list seem...off...to me. Speak with animals doesn't make a lot of sense outside of the "be creative" admonishment from one of the Oath Tennets, and that particular justification could justify literally any spell. I think this is an athematic choice. I feel similarly about Bigby's hand, which has little to do with the idea of choice, freedom, or responsibility. The biggest offender, though, is blindness/deafness, which seems to me to fly in the face of the themes of the subclass by denying others' agency through restricting their ability to make informed choices.

I would suggest replacing speak with animals with something that grants more mobility, like jump, longstrider, or expeditious retreat. Maybe calm emotions or augury in place of blindness/deafness; the former clears heads and enables more rational and thus responsible decision-making, while the latter gives more information and thus increases agency. I think awaken, commune, or scrying would fit better than Bigby's hand, for different reasons.

Channel Divinity
Each of these options seems reasonable for the theme. But just adding a third option isn't adding "choice," but rather versatility and power. It's a little awkward, but I might suggest that they must pick 2 of the three at the start of each day. Perhaps their list of Oath Spells depends on which one they do not choose, rather than being a mix-and-match grab-bag, as well? This would make there be a meaningful choice each morning, as their spells are thematically linked to the two Channels they chose to have.

Aura of Liberty
I like this; it works as-is. You might consider, if you take my suggestion of linking spells to the two Channels they chose, linking an aura to the two of them, as well. Make it one big choice each day. But that's for thematic reasons, not for balance ones, unlike my suggestion about making them pick 2/3 of the Channels.

Inexorable March
I like the movement part of this. I like it a lot; it is evocative with the name and suits the theme of the subclass. But I feel like the attack options at the end are...tacked-on. Shoving people feels more like something the Unstoppable Charge divinity channel is about; there's nothing "inexorably marching" about it, and grappling, while potent, once again feels the opposite of what this subclass is about: grappling is enforcing your will on others, seizing control of their movement from them.

I suggest an alternative:

Starting at 15th level, you can ignore difficult terrain, including aerial hazards that would interfere with flight. When you move through it, you may select any number of creatures you can see. Your undaunted determination inspires them if they wish to follow you, and they may treat terrain through which you've moved as if it were normal (not difficult) for the next minute. If you are mounted, this feature applies to your mount and terrain through which it moves. When you use your Unstoppable Charge channel divinity, you can try to Shove any creature you hit with a melee weapon attack as a result of that action, even if you hit multiple creatures.

I removed all grapple stuff from it, and gave it a way to allow the paladin to increase the volition of others by letting them follow his example if they choose. Also did something with flying, because by this level, flight is a thing that happens.

Invincible Idea
This one's pretty cool. Here's where you could unlock access to all three Channel Divinities while it's active, or something similar.

In this case speak with animals felt to me as a useful intelligence-gathering and "diplomacy" spell (If you can talk with animals, you can generally reason with them, so long as you can bring something to the negotiating table), as well as filling in the "nature-y" option that I wanted to have for each spell level (I tried to have one spell of the three options be Arcane, Divine, and Natural/Druidic magic respectively). I agree on the other spells, though.

I would prefer not to link any of the choices, since that by definition kinda removes choice, but yeah, some kind of restriction on the channel divinities might be good. Perhaps rather than selecting two, you can only use each option once per long rest? That gives flexibility while keeping things balanced and forcing a little variety and planning.

I like the idea of suppressing difficult terrain! If I were to add the flight component, I would definitely prefer to include more means of utilizing it, so I might add Fly to the Oath spell options. I think I'll keep the charge component, though yeah, getting rid of the grapple's a good idea. Overall this was the hardest component for me, I could never think of something that felt sufficiently cool and useful.

[Segev]

The way I see it, this is about MAKING a choice as much as having choices. And that kind of ties in to the idea of responsibility, too.

The linking of options together gives more weight to each choice. In particular, if your going for themes in the spells, it makes sense to have those themes be the categorical choice you make. You don’t have to link any of it. But if you link the spells, I think it would make the choice more weighty.

Up to you though, really just explaining m that trying to persuade here.

[Phhase]

Machinist changelog!

Spoiler: Changes

Show

Max total CR of your horde has been reduced to 1/2 your artificer level (Fractions permissible).

Selfless now grants heavy armor proficiency instead of redundant shield proficiency.

Lead from the front no longer provides heavy armor proficiency.

Amber Shield no longer explicitly requires your highest level slot.

Would changing Iron Interia to granting immunity to immobilization effects bee too good? I imagine it would. What if it also prevented the machines from going any faster than their base speed as well? You know, the slow, inexorable march.

Feedback!

Spoiler: Pact of the Skin

Show

Does this count as a subclass? I'm not sure, but I'll leave that question to others.

This has a real Druid-in-a-can flavor. A sort of Native American Shaman kinda thing. It's interesting. It starts out kinda weak, but at the end, Fleshwarper is uh, pretty good. Skinwalker is also a huge value pick. Are you sure you want to wait until 18th level to allow spellcasting in skinform? While Druid is that way, this effect is slightly less powerful than Druid's Wild Shape, I think.

It's quite interesting. Need to chew it for a while. See it in play.

Spoiler: Gravesinger

Show

I see what you're doing, and is looks cool, but imma wait until its done to give a proper whack.

Spoiler: Slasha'

Show

Visage
Good idea, could be a little simpler though. I once created a race that had to make a skill check to not use Indimidation when making a social skill check. Perhaps this could spin in a similar direction? Head's a bit foggy on this atm.

Rising
Add some spacing so it's a bit easier to read.

Stalker: Good idea. This skews a little toward races that have darkvision, though.

Nightmare: Looks good.

Shape: A bit niche (How often is an NPC gonna roll Insight on you?). Nondetection is interesting.

Carrie Soaked: Looks decent.

Creeper: Now this is pretty interesting. Would you consider adding a locate creature effect?

Double Murderer: Totally tubular. Looks fine.

Carnage
General question: that thing that bladelock does where you can designate a magical weapon as your pact weapon. If, for example, you took the hulking stalker longsword thing and then found a magical longsword. Could you use that instead?

Stalker: Solid.

Nightmare: Is this...good? I'm uncertain.

Shape: Simple, but it works. Would you consider increasing crit range with daggers? Also, general question applies.

Soaked: It's fine.

Creeper: Oof, depending on what kind of weapons are permissible, this could be quite the power. Swiss army knife, huh?

Double Murderer: Awesome, but I'd consider bullets piercing damage. Sure they're not sharp, but they do put holes in things.

The Return
Can I just say that I quite like how you can mix and match these aspects?

Stalker: So wait, just to be clear, you become resistant to all damage, all the time, except psychic and either radiant or necrotic? This seems a bit powerful. Though admittedly, Rogue doesn't have a ton of HP.

Nightmare: Clarify when the effect wears off. Is it at the end of the turn that you attacked, or at the beginning of your next turn? Also, one free attack seems a bit weak. Consider adding a fear effect or something to do with the Nightmare spell.

Shape: Cool and good.

Soaked: It's fine.

Creeper: Does this work with a bag of rats, for example? And can the effect be dismissed? Does it have any limitations?

Double Murderer: Quite powerful, but I think ok.

Reboot
Using your Dex mod seems a bit odd. What about having the option to roll a few Hit Dice? Otherwise looks fine, but to be clear, if you use this ability, and then are killed again, you die for real, right?

[Lvl45DM!]

Would changing Iron Interia to granting immunity to immobilization effects bee too good? I imagine it would. What if it also prevented the machines from going any faster than their base speed as well? You know, the slow, inexorable march.

That seems way too good. Maybe ignoring difficult terrain?

Feedback!

Visage
Good idea, could be a little simpler though. I once created a race that had to make a skill check to not use Indimidation when making a social skill check. Perhaps this could spin in a similar direction? Head's a bit foggy on this atm.

Maybe? I dunno, Im not sure. Its a finnicky concept.

Rising
Add some spacing so it's a bit easier to read.

Done

Stalker: Good idea. This skews a little toward races that have darkvision, though.

Nightmare: Looks good.

Shape: A bit niche (How often is an NPC gonna roll Insight on you?). Nondetection is interesting.

Carrie Soaked: Looks decent.

Creeper: Now this is pretty interesting. Would you consider adding a locate creature effect?

Double Murderer: Totally tubular. Looks fine.

Rogues in general skew towards darkvision. Hell DnD skews towards darkvision if you ask me.
If your PC's arent lying to NPC's then we are playing very different games haha.
Locate Creature is higher level than the other abilities of which the highes is 3rd with Nondetection, which is already pushing it. Plus, its not as fun as hunting them down with your nose.

Carnage
General question: that thing that bladelock does where you can designate a magical weapon as your pact weapon. If, for example, you took the hulking stalker longsword thing and then found a magical longsword. Could you use that instead?

Stalker: Solid.

Nightmare: Is this...good? I'm uncertain.

Shape: Simple, but it works. Would you consider increasing crit range with daggers? Also, general question applies.

Soaked: It's fine.

Creeper: Oof, depending on what kind of weapons are permissible, this could be quite the power. Swiss army knife, huh?

Double Murderer: Awesome, but I'd consider bullets piercing damage. Sure they're not sharp, but they do put holes in things.

No to the bladelock thing in general though I added it as the new 13th level ability for the Shape. The bladelock thing would only work for Hulking Stalker and The Shape, and be way too strong compared to the rest on the Creeper, while Killer of Killers, Blood Soaked, New Nightmare and my new Cannibal wouldnt benefit at all.

The Return
Can I just say that I quite like how you can mix and match these aspects?

Stalker: So wait, just to be clear, you become resistant to all damage, all the time, except psychic and either radiant or necrotic? This seems a bit powerful. Though admittedly, Rogue doesn't have a ton of HP.

Nightmare: Clarify when the effect wears off. Is it at the end of the turn that you attacked, or at the beginning of your next turn? Also, one free attack seems a bit weak. Consider adding a fear effect or something to do with the Nightmare spell.

Shape: Cool and good.

Soaked: It's fine.

Creeper: Does this work with a bag of rats, for example? And can the effect be dismissed? Does it have any limitations?

Double Murderer: Quite powerful, but I think ok.

Yes! Yes you can say that! Please do and thank you!
Ive added a limit to Hulking Stalkers resistance. Now you can't just wade in at the start, you have to rack up a kill first. Explains why he spends the first half of every movie lurking in the shadows really and killing side-characters.
New Nightmare is tweaked, and the Nightmare ability is added. I can't believe i didnt think of that! Thanks.
Changed the Shape, oh well.
Ugh. Bags of Rats. Stupid. I added a CR limit. It must be a WORTHY foe.
That one is all about the campaign. Hopefully though youll run into at least a few of those monsters, but not exclusively.

Reboot
Using your Dex mod seems a bit odd. What about having the option to roll a few Hit Dice? Otherwise looks fine, but to be clear, if you use this ability, and then are killed again, you die for real, right?

Again. Duh! Can't believe i didn't think of that. Thanks again. And yeah. The killer always comes back, but only at the very end. You take him down again, he goes down!

Added my final killer, with thanks to Damon_Tor for pushing me too. *revs chainsaw*

[Lvl45DM!]

So, uh, voting thread?

[MoleMage]

So, uh, voting thread?

Oh dip that was this week. My bad, everyone. Please see the voting thread here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...9#post24440789

I didn't count the half a week delay against the normal duration.

[MoleMage]

Alright it's that day again where I tally the votes. We had a surprising spread this time around, with everyone getting at least 1 point and no clear breakaway. That said, we still have enough to call out winners, and here they are!

In third place with 12 points, MoleMage's Juggler! Be a trickster, a performer, or just a menace with thrown swords (or potions, arrows, daggers, or fire)!

In second place, with 12 points and the tiebreaker of more 1st place votes, it's mk333's Way of the Burning Heart! Redeem that demon residing in your soul, or embrace its cursed power, the choice is yours!

And in first place, with 15 points, it's those most modular of warlock patrons, the Vestiges, by Damon_Tor! How many ability combos can you find?


In the realm of next theme, we also had a surprisingly diverse vote; that said we will be taking The Pen is Mightier than the Sword as our next contest idea; The Band was our runner up and will be included in next contest's theme pool.

Voting is concluded! Excellent batch of entries all around.

New thread is currently being built, should be up in 20 minutes or so. EDIT: Or now! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...1#post24475701