5e Monk Guide - Be Like Water (Updated for MToF)

[Foxhound438]

It does?

Sure, a 60% chance to hit (+14 vs AC20) 'only' gets reduced to 50%; but with disadvantage (be it bonus action dodging, or empty body) , a 36% chance to hit gets reduced to 25% ... which is equivalent of aprox. 1/3rd of the hits that would have hit you, that now miss.

(same numbers if you assome +16 to attack, but bracers of armor for +2 AC)

+14 vs. 20 would be 75% hit chance. 6 on the die is a hit. going from 75% to 65%, or from 56% going to 42%... assuming your enemy doesn't have a way to get their own free advantage in return, such as an ability to knock you prone, blind you, etc. to cancel disadvantage, or abilities that negate your effects like blindsense or grappling (reducing speed to zero makes dodge lose its effect). Granted, it's a small bonus to your AC and that isn't necessarily irrelevant, and I don't even think it's bad- like OP, I think it's one of the better things the kensai has to offer, but that small bonus alone isn't enough to convince me that kensai is good overall.

And on the magic item, note that most DMs are wary to the fact that magic items increase the 'effective level' of the party- if you happen to have a rare magic item, chances are the majority of your team has at least +1 weapons, which means that your level appropriate encounter is now an even higher CR, and enemies probably have +15 or more to their attacks, and are even more likely to have effects that bypass AC altogether.

[strangebloke]

+14 vs. 20 would be 75% hit chance. 6 on the die is a hit. going from 75% to 65%, or from 56% going to 42%... assuming your enemy doesn't have a way to get their own free advantage in return, such as an ability to knock you prone, blind you, etc. to cancel disadvantage, or abilities that negate your effects like blindsense or grappling (reducing speed to zero makes dodge lose its effect). Granted, it's a small bonus to your AC and that isn't necessarily irrelevant, and I don't even think it's bad- like OP, I think it's one of the better things the kensai has to offer, but that small bonus alone isn't enough to convince me that kensai is good overall.

Dodge can be countered, sure, if the enemy starts throwing spells around. I do feel the need to note that most monsters that grapple do so after a successful attack roll, so you'll still be happy about having better AC.

Besides, if we're being fair, lots of enemies are immune to the prone condition, or have awesome dex saves, but that doesn't get brought up with respect to the Open Hand Monk.

And even at high levels, most foes you face won't have +14 to their attack mod. Just the boss will. High level minions are more likely to have a +7 or so. The ability retains it's usefulness.

Moreover, if we're looking at the Kensei class at high levels, Kensei have their level 11 and 17 abilities which everyone agrees are rock solid. And while agile parry is good at high levels, it's awesome at low levels.

Let's say level 3, you're fighting goblins. You'd normally have 16 AC, but now you have 18. The goblin's hit chance goes from 45% to 35, for 22% less damage overall. With patient defense that difference is from 20% to 12%. (40% less damage) 40% less damage is good stuff, where I come from.

And on the magic item, note that most DMs are wary to the fact that magic items increase the 'effective level' of the party- if you happen to have a rare magic item, chances are the majority of your team has at least +1 weapons, which means that your level appropriate encounter is now an even higher CR, and enemies probably have +15 or more to their attacks, and are even more likely to have effects that bypass AC altogether.

And if they have that higher attack mod, the other monks are even more behind than you are.

I mean, good grief. Most people would say that +1 AC from defense fighting style is a pretty good feature worth half a level, right? The Kensei gets +2 AC (with a few drawbacks) and two other features at that same level. Even if you just view level 3 Kensei as longbow prof, +1 damage or +2 AC (your choice), and +2.5 to ranged attacks, it's a fricking baller of a level.

[qube]

+14 vs. 20 would be 75% hit chance.

quite true. dunno what I was thinking.

And on the magic item, note that most DMs are wary to the fact that magic items increase the 'effective level' of the party-

really? without magic items, a full plate shield wielding defense fighting style fighter ... only has AC 21, which, as you just proven, would make him still eat the dust like it's nobody's business.

Sure, he'll have more hp (like the champions regeneration), but the kensai has a point more AC, resistance to nearly everything, and the disadvantage trick. (if the enemy negates this by getting advantage, he'd also get advatange vs the fighter, really messing up his day)

Not to mention - if your DM doesn't grant magic items, the kensei get even more boosted in comparison, as he can pass through mundeane weapon resistance, and even spend ki points to turn his weapon into the equivalent of a +3 weapon.

[Citan]

Be Like Water

A guide to the monk in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons.

"Be like water making its way through cracks.
Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it.
If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves."
- Bruce Lee

The "Black Sheep" of DnD classes, the Monk brings eastern inspired wuxia martial arts to the medieval fantasy world of Dungeon and Dragons. While in past editions the monk has been a problematic class, often falling behind many other classes in terms of it's ability to contribute to an adventuring party. In 5th edition however the monk seemed to have settled in place as a primarily damage dealing and scouting class ("striker") similar to the rogue, who swaps a little of the former's skill based utility, for a little more durability on the front lines (as well as some other tricks, unique to the monk). If played correctly can be a great asset to any group.

Color Scheme

1. A strong option, good for most character builds.
2. Solid! But not quite as good as sky blue.
3. Mediocre, but not terrible.
4. A bad option, best avoided.
5. Special: Purple denotes a choice that can be occasionally useful, but is limited in scope or applicability.

Table of contents:
1. The Core of the Monk
2. Monk Races
3. Monastic Traditions
4. Monk Feats
5. The Role of a Monk
6. Multiclassing as a Monk

Hi!

As always, first, thanks for putting the time and effort into writing a guide for everyone.
The majority of content is well enough.

There are quite a few things that imo lack serious hindsight.

1. Strength
I completely agree that you will usually build a DEX-based Monk rather than STR, if only because of the Unarmored dependency.
Most of the STR appeal would come from multiclasses (especially Barbarian / Fighter / Rogue).

With that said, there are three reasons for a pure Monk to at least keep decent STR or make it main.
- ranged attacks: when you are neither a Sun Soul nor a Kensei, when reach is a problem, you'll fall short hard. Daggers certainly work, but are 20 feet only (60 at disadvantage). Javelins are 30/120.
This can be addressed by racial features, but does shoe-horns your race as a consequence.
- mobility protection: as a Monk, losing your mobility is kinda the worst thing happening. For Grapple/Shove checks, being Acrobatic will be enough. For pure STR checks/saves, you'll be at risk until level 14.
- tanking/controlling: yeah, it seems counterintuitive in several ways, but Grappling back enemies, or allowing them to hit you on first turn because of low AC then use Dodge or other abilities to make them waste attacks work well. Extremely powerful with a Long Death or 4E Monk.

Overall it's still a niche direction, but it had to be noted. :)
I doubt it should ever be providing a negative mod anyways, so I'd put it black myself. :)

Charisma
Besides the obviously great multiclass options, even a pure Monk can be actually a very good party face: he won't beat anyone at skill checks like a Rogue/Bard could do, but he'll have options that the others couldn't get unless they invested resources into it thanks to Tongue (more on that later).
So with the right proficiencies, it can be worth getting a few points in it.
I'm not proposing a rating change though, because I suppose those are given for pure Monks, and MADness requires hard choices and Monk is a martial, fight-geared class at core.

Weapons
It may have been a deliberate choice on your part, which you forgot to stress in opening post, but your weapon ratings are good only for the first half of a Monk's life.
Namely Spear: it is certainly the best weapon overall from level 1 to 10 as far as pure damage goes. But...
- There will be situations in which you'll rather dual-wield weapons (several ranged attacks in a turn) or use only one hand anyways (grapple/unarmed attack). For those situations, light handaxes are better because it's easier to adapt your "stance" without loss (just throw its).
- In the first level, +1-2 point of damage matters. At level 7 it really makes rarely the difference between "this one is down right now" and "this one still gets his next turn".
- At level 11, every weapon gets 1d8 so using a spear actually becomes a bad choice, whatever way you look at it: javelin becomes the prime weapon (better range), with light hammer/handaxe coming close behind for mixed situations.

Ki-Empowered Strikes
By essence a YMMV rating, but honestly I'd push it to black.
Even when magic equipment is a thing, martials could be targeted by a Heat Weapon, disarm or other kind of trick depriving them of a waepon.
Even when magic equipment is not, martials may count on an ally casting Magic/Elemental Weapon, but this comes at a price: build investment (learning spell) and concentration during fight.
Unless DM lets them have an NPC casting it for them...

Tongue
"the language barrier shouldn't be a huge issue to a level 13 party."
Wut? Wrong, plain wrong here mate.
It seems you make the assumption that every party in every world has a way to understand all languages.
Monks apart, it's actually quite an ordeal.
Tongues spell indeed exists, and is available to many casters, namely Bard / Cleric / Sorcerer / Warlock / Wizard. From all of them, only for Cleric it is something easy to achieve, thanks to the prepared spell + all list mechanics. For a Wizard already, it's quite an investment to decide to learn it on purpose. Otherwise you'll have to luck in. For the others it's worse, because it eats one of their precious spell slot (particularly hard for Sorcerer and Warlock).
There are one or two class features that I don't remember clearly that give a similar ability, but they required specific archetype and high enough level.

And there are among 20 languages to know of...
You can probably expect someone to know either orc, or goblin, or demonic depending on the kind of campaign you expected at character creation. It's nearly sure that elvish will be known, and good chance dwarvish too. But what about discussing with a celestial, spying on giants, exploring an elemental plane?
So, unless DM waives around all the interesting scouting/spying parts, although this is heavily dependent on campaign, this should not be rated red. Ever. Black would probably be fine, if not a slightly bit generous.

Tranquility
I understand your point but I'd say you're a bit harsh on it. After all, it's automatic: it means that on your first fight, you may have better defense as you rush towards the backline.
With that said, the red is indeed earned.

4E
You are sadly, definitely out of your way here. This rating completely contradicts what you say in the rest of the guid, which puts emphasis on damage and control.
I won't go into too much detail, but I'll stress this:
Ki consumption is 100% balanced, even if it is indeed annoying at low level.

A few examples, considering damage as a priority...

Spoiler: Burning Hands

Show

Burning Hands:
2 Ki, replaces (Extra) Attack action: DEX-save (great when you have hard time hitting), average 5/10 per creature hit. Compared with attack: (1d8+4)*2, average 0/8.5/17.
On a lucky day, you'd need 2 creatures in AOE to match the average.
On a normal day (low DEX / high AC), you'd only need 1 creature to match the average.
On another normal day (low AC / high DEX), you'd need as much as 4 creatures to match the total average.
And on an unlucky day (high DEX & AC), Burning Hands is intrisically better since you at least deal some damage.

Add to that the facts that...
1. Casters with Burning Hands won't usually use it because of close range risks.
2. Monk's high mobility makes it easy to maximize the scale (jump over enemies, casting it mid-air downwards, rush on a side and incite enemies to chase you before suddenly turning around).
3. It scales decently enough to give you a powerful AOE when needed, even if it does empty you.

Spoiler: Shatter

Show

3 ki, 60 feet cast range (hello guys that I couldn't reach), average 7/13.5 per creature, 10 feet: this is a nice replacement for Burning Hands essentially because of the added utility (breaking things) and range (less move needed to maximize) but otherwise covers more or less the same use-cases.

Cone of Cold vs Fireball
Fireball is easier to use, but Cone of Cold has by far the best potential: again, let's not forget about Monk mobility (especially with a Fly involved).

Let's also stress that dread ki cost reputation on other abilities...

Spoiler: Hold Person

Show

Hold Person: decent range, WIS save (rare until high level) against CON (common from the get go), paralysed (one magnitude better than stunned): limitation on creatures affected may make it unworthy for a particular game, but it's otherwise extremely solid.

Spoiler: Thunderwave

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Thunderwave: targeting CON is not a good news. However, when it's a decent gamble, it provides "mass damage and disengage": up to 2 creatures, Open Hand (provided hits) and Drunken Master would fare better consumption-wise. 3 creatures and more? Defense-wise, Drunken still leads (disengage against anyone + extra speed), damage-wise, 4e.
But it targets Constitution. Just that should be enough to put it and Burning Hands at the very least on the same rating.

Spoiler: Unbroken Air

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Unbroken Air: 2 ki for a push effect? Bad right? Actually not at all. The only drawback of this ability is targeting STR, which is a kinda common save. Beyond that? For a mere 2 Ki, you get a 30 feet range ability that deals minimum damage (against caster? Guaranteed concentration save, even if it's against minimum DC), deals "around level 20 Monk's attack" average damage, can be upgraded "after the fact" like Divine Smite, can push enemy ("disengage" an ally, "locks" an enemy into ally's OA zone or trap) and put it prone (free gangbang coming next).
So, for one action and 2 ki, and only that, you get a result similar to the chaining of at least 2/3 movement, two weapon attacks (Flurry of Blows, 1 ki) and two Shove attempts (Extra Attack).
Except much better because...
- You dealt better damage overall (15 damage average on success, minimum damage on fail whereas both attacks could have missed).
- You could push the enemy much farther than with plain Shoves.
- You still have most of your movement left (because Shove means you have to be in contact anyways).
- You sill have your bonus action left (booh, I can't attack too bad, I have nothing to do with my bonus action... Oh wait!)

Exactly the same could be said about Water Whip. :)

Spoiler: Fangs of the Fire Snake

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Fangs of the Fire Snake: at least one has been correctly rated...
Too bad you see yet again only the damage part, while this ability also provides solid defense, by allowing you to fully use Martial Arts (AND Stunning Strike) while staying outside of reach (even that of large creatures) and sparing move.

Shape the Flowing River
Yeah, it's sadly a YMMV thingy. I'd just like to stress that with an open-minded DM, you can make it a good utility spell provided you always have some water on you. If you happen to have a Druid or Cleric in party, it also means you can create makeshift covers or constructions/bridges at any time (obviously easy to break, but still...)
And of course whenever you are in a place with some water area, it becomes incredibly useful.

Overall, 4E Monk is a great archetype, sadly just misunderstood by most people, which by the way complain that it drains ki fast then complain it doesn't synergize with Martial Arts / Flurry of Blows.
Well, obviously it doesn't, would be too powerful otherwise. Simple as that.
If what you need is simply dealing single target damage, then there is little reason to do anything else than just using plain weapon attacks, possibly with Fangs for safety.
Elemental Discipline brings a different strength, for which balance and fluff explanations can justify the separation from Martial Arts.

If you're really bothered preventing the use of bonus action on anything offensive, then multiclass are always a solid option.

Kensei
Another class for which I feel you're missing the point.
- Weapons
You thought about longbow, good.
But that's not the end of the world.
You can now get a 10 feet attack range with whip, which will greatly ease your life in easier levels: few enemies have a 10 feet OA, so it means you can use your bonus action on attacking another enemy or just Dashing back safely.
While longbow is the obvious choice, you could also decide to become proficient in darts or blowgun: very easy to conceal, cheap, and now deadly.
When you find a magic martial weapon you really fancy, unless it happens to be a heavy weapon, you can end as "Martial Arts proficient" with it too.
As for the bonus AC, no, it's not at all a "give us better weapons, then reward us for not using them?" nothing at all prevents you to make one of your Attack attacks with the weapon: it actually opens some interesting combos since it can be paired with thrown weapons (enable Kensei Shot, throw weapon while closing in then deal unarmed strike, finally draw another weapon. Next turn if you want to pull back, make an unarmed attack, weapon attack, disengage, move away).

- Magic property: yeah, sorry you are wrong, it was yet and always a concern for Monks as any other martials.
You have been all about using a spear for the increased damage, yet failed to stress that this "awesome" weapon did not benefit from the base class's "Magic Strikes" which targets only unarmed strikes, so only on melee.
This benefit ensures you are equally functional whatever the situation is AND whatever weapon you are using.
You may have found a great shortsword, but it won't do squat for you against flying creatures. And asking for your Fighter/Rogue's friend if you could borrow his magical weapon is probably not a reasonable idea either.

- Deft Strike: yeah, you're right, obviously dealing sure-hit extra damage after the fact, even on ranged attack, is bad...
Nah, I'm joking, indeed the cost/benefit ratio is not great, they could/should have made it either "free use but static bonus" or "unlimited use per turn".
As a Monk you'll usually have better options to spend Ki on.
Now, on a multiclass (*cough* Rogue *cough*) it can be a pretty decent use.

Thanks for reading. ;)

[ProseBeforeHos]

hex is a much bigger draw to warlock than devil's sight. four attacks getting per-hit damage boosts is pretty good. Same can honestly be said for ranger and hunter's mark, it takes an extra level to get but there's also dueling style to make even a d6 shortsword attack stronger than versatile wielding a spear, and unlike warlock you don't need 13 charisma. I know that both spells take a turn to set up before they can fully "go off" and if your target dies you have to set up again, but where you really want either of these effects is boss fights, and there you typically will have an enemy be around more than long enough to make it worth your time.

Both the ratings for ranger and warlock work off the assumption that you will take hex or hunters mark and use them. I rate them lower than fighter largely because I don't think what either of these classes gives a monk is better than the mighty action surge! Two actions in the first round of a combat, returning on a short rest (perfect for monks) is pretty insane.

I don't disagree with anything you say here though.

And finally, I have to say that despite so many people vehemently disagreeing with your rating of kensai, I personally agree with it being bad overall.

Thankyou lol. Feeling a little outnumbered here. Kensai criticism seems to have touched some nerves.

Typo: In the aaracockra section you said "a 50ft. base, permanent fly speed, that increases with unarmored defense," but I think you meant unarmored movement.

Thanks for the guide! I think monks are a lot of fun to play.

Thankyou both for the praise and pointing out the typo. I miss so many of the damn things.

It's Kensei not Kensai.

Fixed the error in Kensei spelling.

Downside of Hour of Reaping: it affects all "creatures" in 30ft, - opposite to "enemies".

You're right about hour of reaping, somehow (despite having played in a game where our long death monk kept accidentally fearing his allies I forgot that it hits allies). I have amended my guide.

What the **** did you say about Kensei you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the dojo. I have been involved on numerous secret raids on the underdark, and have over 300cr in confirmed kills.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree guys :)


As always thankyou everyone for all feedback!

[Sahe]

Hi!

4E
You are sadly, definitely out of your way here. This rating completely contradicts what you say in the rest of the guid, which puts emphasis on damage and control.
I won't go into too much detail, but I'll stress this:
Ki consumption is 100% balanced, even if it is indeed annoying at low level.

[...]

Overall, 4E Monk is a great archetype, sadly just misunderstood by most people, which by the way complain that it drains ki fast then complain it doesn't synergize with Martial Arts / Flurry of Blows.
Well, obviously it doesn't, would be too powerful otherwise. Simple as that.
If what you need is simply dealing single target damage, then there is little reason to do anything else than just using plain weapon attacks, possibly with Fangs for safety.
Elemental Discipline brings a different strength, for which balance and fluff explanations can justify the separation from Martial Arts.

I disagree on 4 Elements. The worst about it is that it is very Ki-hungry and once you've spend all your Ki you're left with a single Cantrip and otherwise you're out of a subclass. Now of course some other Monk Subclasses are the same (Open Hand for example) but they don't eat through your Ki as fast. On top of that you barely have a lot of "spells" available and get a total of 5. A lot less than Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight and those two get even some features on top of their spells. In comparison Shadow Monk gets 4 Spells and a Cantrip on 3rd Level and then they get features that are independent of Ki. My biggest gripe with 4 Elements is that once your Ki is gone you're out of a Subclass and with 4 E your Ki is gone fast.

[strangebloke]

Mad Kensei Players

Not mad, just disappointed.

[Mortis_Elrod]

We're gonna have to agree to disagree guys :)


As always thankyou everyone for all feedback!

What’s the point of feedback if you don’t use it? Also I don’t think anyone here is getting angry, merely point that your rating of Kensei is inaccurate.

Even if you looked at your own rating system, Kensei would average out black not red.

[Naanomi]

Kensei is a class that *feels bad* even if it is not bad. One wants to be a weapon specialist, but the core (melee) feature discourages using a weapon to attack more than once a turn. Stylistically I’d have preferred an option that let and encouraged me attack with a weapon more (flurry/martial arts with it) rather than less. All of that is totally seperate from the mechanics, but I think is at the heart of a lot of the antipathy towards the subclass

[Mortis_Elrod]

Kensei is a class that *feels bad* even if it is not bad. One wants to be a weapon specialist, but the core (melee) feature discourages using a weapon to attack more than once a turn. Stylistically I’d have preferred an option that let and encouraged me attack with a weapon more (flurry/martial arts with it) rather than less. All of that is totally seperate from the mechanics, but I think is at the heart of a lot of the antipathy towards the subclass

Isn’t that a perception issue? You see the class a different way so it feels wrong? I don’t think this gives any real reason to rate the subclass as bad or a trap option.

I for one see a lot of fun potential. This is a subclass that blends the weapon use and unarmed strike use quite well. It’s probably one of the few ways to do a skirmishing archer without multiclassing. It’s even good with thrown weapons.

[Naanomi]

It may be a perception issue, but one that explains a lot of the general struggles with acceptance of the subclass. If I made a ‘poison master’ subclass that had some great abilities, but in the end discouraged using poison I would feel the same way.

The mishmash between the conceptual ‘unarmored Weapon Master’ and the mechanical ‘guy who kicks people while holding a sword for the AC bonus’ is an issue to me (and I suspect, though perhaps not vocalized as such, to others as well)

[strangebloke]

Kensei is a class that *feels bad* even if it is not bad. One wants to be a weapon specialist, but the core (melee) feature discourages using a weapon to attack more than once a turn. Stylistically I’d have preferred an option that let and encouraged me attack with a weapon more (flurry/martial arts with it) rather than less. All of that is totally seperate from the mechanics, but I think is at the heart of a lot of the antipathy towards the subclass

I mean, that's fair, but without the AC bonus the monk can't survive in melee. If you think of kensei less as 'weapon master' and more as a dedicated DPR/tank monk, they hold up pretty well.

Granted, they can't tank and DPR at the same time.

[jaappleton]

Hi!
-snip-
Thanks for reading. ;)

Truly, Citan does some excellent synopsis. I really mean that, his breakdowns are absolutely stellar!

I'm actually legit considering a 4E Monk. It certainly has versatility, thats for sure. I do wish it got more Disciplines as it leveled up, though.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Truly, Citan does some excellent synopsis. I really mean that, his breakdowns are absolutely stellar!

I'm actually legit considering a 4E Monk. It certainly has versatility, thats for sure. I do wish it got more Disciplines as it leveled up, though.

It’s funny you mention it, I’ve also been meaning to try it as is. I’m used to ignoring the subclass so much that I flip over the pages automatically.

[qube]

Kensei is a class that *feels bad* even if it is not bad. One wants to be a weapon specialist, but the core (melee) feature discourages using a weapon to attack more than once a turn. Stylistically I’d have preferred an option that let and encouraged me attack with a weapon more (flurry/martial arts with it) rather than less. All of that is totally seperate from the mechanics, but I think is at the heart of a lot of the antipathy towards the subclass

actually, I think it's presumed people attack with the weapon all the time, and thus it encourages to mix up unarmed attacks with unarmed strikes (esp. once you get extra attack, that you make an unarmed strike & and a weapon attack).

[Naanomi]

actually, I think it's presumed people attack with the weapon all the time, and thus it encourages to mix up unarmed attacks with unarmed strikes (esp. once you get extra attack, that you make an unarmed strike & and a weapon attack).

In most rounds, one will make a weapon attack, an unarmed attack for the bonus AC, and then Martial Arts/Flurry for two more unarmed attacks... 1 armed to 2-3 unarmed

[MeeposFire]

I am slightly surprised that it is not even mentioned to even try using sharpshooter with a kensei at least at level 17. It would seem getting rerolls would make the feat fairly nice at higher evels letting you deal decent overall damage at a reasonable hit rate. Though I may be forgetting something.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I am slightly surprised that it is not even mentioned to even try using sharpshooter with a kensei at least at level 17. It would seem getting rerolls would make the feat fairly nice at higher evels letting you deal decent overall damage at a reasonable hit rate. Though I may be forgetting something.

You aren't forgetting anything, its another good thing about the kensei.

[jaappleton]

Truly, Citan does some excellent synopsis. I really mean that, his breakdowns are absolutely stellar!

I'm actually legit considering a 4E Monk. It certainly has versatility, thats for sure. I do wish it got more Disciplines as it leveled up, though.

I'm sorry to quote myself but the more I think about this, I actually think the 4E Monk is superior to the Sun Soul...

[MeeposFire]

I'm sorry to quote myself but the more I think about this, I actually think the 4E Monk is superior to the Sun Soul...

The 4e monk has less problems with actual capability and has more of a problem because it just lacks certain things that people will want and so makes it unpopular which fuels the idea about it being weak. The bigger problem is just the lack of anything outside of just spell options for your Ki. For example look at the EK and AT and you will see they get spells and actual class features outside of the spells. The 4e monk does not which makes them feel less competitive even if you do get a lot of mileage on their spells. That is why in my 4e monk I gave them some class features so that they feel like a 4e monk even if not using expensive spell casting and at least when I did it I made sure to tie them often times to an actual monk ability so that they feel more connected to their base class (many other disciplines do this if you look where various class abilities are designed to work with fuy of blows for example

This phenomenon is seen elsewhere as well where after a lot of looking sub types like the beast master are not anywhere near as bad as people say they are in terms of actual power but they feel that way due to it not working how they would like it to or it works in ways that are less fun (the beast master is very much on this its numbers can be fine but the beast does not work like some want it to and so it gets labeled as being worse than it is because of that). I am not saying that the beast master is a hidden gem or even that great but it is not as bad as some people here will try to tell you.

[ProseBeforeHos]

I'm sorry to quote myself but the more I think about this, I actually think the 4E Monk is superior to the Sun Soul...

In a world where you had infinite Ki the 4e monk would be exceptionally good. But you don't, ki is limited. Even if you're guaranteed to get a short rest between fights, you can still easily exhaust it in a single fight.

4e monks problems are, as I stated in my guide:

a) spells come in too late to be good (stoneskin at 17?)

b) ki costs are prohibitive (3 ki for a hold person?)

c) spell choices are actually very limited (you will only ever get 5 spell options by level 17, for comparison that's 1 more than the shadow monk gets at level 3)

This is one of those theory-craft vs practical experience things. Plenty of things in 5e seem good until you see them play out in practice (how many people turned up to my games with pre-hexblade bladelocks, or PhB beast-masters only to meet with disappointment?). 4e monk is weak, at the very least it should have given you 2 spells @ lvl 6/11/17 instead of one.

I think there are limited returns on debating a lot of this stuff. If Kensei or 4e monks are ripping things up at your temple, then clearly you run very different games to the ones that I do, and you are welcome to think me a fool. I can only write guides like this from my own personal experience which is - 4e is a major trap option, perhaps the worst in 5e outside of the PhB beastmaster ranger (and there are people who also defend that...).

[Foxhound438]

Truly, Citan does some excellent synopsis. I really mean that, his breakdowns are absolutely stellar!

I'm actually legit considering a 4E Monk. It certainly has versatility, thats for sure. I do wish it got more Disciplines as it leveled up, though.

I just wish they gave them some of the elemental evil spells as options. Even with the few *known* spells issue ignored, I feel like right now there's too few options. Give us some earth tremors, or an aganzzar's scorcher, maybe tidal wave or a wall of water to choose from.

I'm sorry to quote myself but the more I think about this, I actually think the 4E Monk is superior to the Sun Soul...

largely agree if you just want to do stunning strike, but radiant bolt at third gives you a good excuse to skip taking mobile and play a non-Vuman race for once ever. I personally like the thematic side of sun soul though, so maybe that's just my bias. My monk preference is personally something like shadow>sun>4e>else.

I am slightly surprised that it is not even mentioned to even try using sharpshooter with a kensei at least at level 17. It would seem getting rerolls would make the feat fairly nice at higher evels letting you deal decent overall damage at a reasonable hit rate. Though I may be forgetting something.

It certainly wouldn't be awful, but you have to remember that even with a possible +3 and "advantage" (but better because stacking) once per round, you're still only making 2 attacks. Fighters can make anywhere from 3 to 7 at the same level with precision attack, and rangers can use swift quiver for 4. It's cool to have sharpshooter on your monk, but if that's what you're going for you can do it way better as a fighter, and when you're reverting back to doing monk things you're just short a feat. But yes, if I were to build a kensai this would probably be the thing I would do. Strongly recommend that this feat gets mentioned in the guide as a 19th level pickup for kensai.

[ProseBeforeHos]

On the (continual, unending) topic of the Kensei, I have been putting some thought into how you could make the subclass playable/good. About the best, most workable kensei build I could come up with, looks like this:

Variant Human Monk (Kensei) lvl 3.

Starting stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Starting feat: Defensive duelist.

Lvl 3 Kensei Weapons: Rapier and Longbow.

Kensei Weapons as you level: Shortsword, Dagger, Scimitar.

ASI's as you level: 18 Dex (@4), 20 dex (@8), 18 wis (@12), 20 wis (@16), feat: tough (@19) (thanks Foxhound438).

Level progression: Pure monk levels 1-18, fighter levels 19-20* (grab dueling style).

General tactics: Attack with unarmed strike and defend with agile parry. If an enemy barely beats our AC, then use our reaction to parry it with defensive duelist. We will use nothing but our kensei weapons, picking additional finesse based weapons as we level. We're not looking to expand our weapon options, as much as we are trying to make sure the best magic weapons we find we can use with our kensei features - thus we take shortsword and dagger (more common weapons) before we take the martial scimitar.

We don't waste our Ki on deft strikes unless the enemy is stun immune and we have close to our maximum ki (so we can still flurry/patient every round), or we're fighting with our longbow. Most of the time we play like an open hand monk - engaged on the front line, trying to lock enemies up with stunning blow.

*You can mix this up. If you get a nice magical weapon before level 11 - i.e. weakening the power of Sharpen the Blade, feel free to dip into 2 levels of fighter after level 8.

***

I think this build is better than both the lauded whip kensei who can't use agile parry, or their unarmed attacks at all (unless they are a bugbear, and if you are a bb why do you need a whip?), and the "bow kensei" which I must say sounds completely terrible...

Note however that this build requires a lot of cheese - variant human dumping two stats to below a 10, and will perform only about as well as a standard open hand/drunken master. I wouldn't personally play it.

And this is the final word I will say on this topic.

[Foxhound438]

Note however that this build requires a lot of cheese - variant human dumping two stats to below a 10

in all fairness that's basically bog standard for any Vuman I've ever seen. Every class can benefit from two 16's, and most can benefit from a 14 in con so that a 16 can be elsewhere. Even fighters and rogues have multiple subclasses each now that care about a third stat.

edit: also note that your build wouldn't get a feat at 19th due to the multiclass. Not a huge issue since you're wanting tough, when at high levels you have enough HP to soak a hit from about anything before you would make the call to switch to ranged or kiting anyways.

[ProseBeforeHos]

edit: also note that your build wouldn't get a feat at 19th due to the multiclass. Not a huge issue since you're wanting tough, when at high levels you have enough HP to soak a hit from about anything before you would make the call to switch to ranged or kiting anyways.

Ah, good point! Action surge still beats out tough I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

Suggested prose correction/improvement to your intro.

currently

While in past editions the monk has been a problematic class, often falling behind many other classes in terms of it's ability to contribute to an adventuring party. In 5th edition however the monk seemed to have settled in place as a primarily damage dealing and scouting class ("striker") similar to the rogue, who swaps a little of the former's skill based utility, for a little more durability on the front lines (as well as some other tricks, unique to the monk).

Proposed upgrade

In previous editions the monk has been a problematic class, often falling behind many other classes in terms of it's ability to contribute to an adventuring party. In 5th edition the monk has settled into place as a primarily damage dealing and scouting class ("striker") similar to the rogue, who swaps a little of the former's skill based utility for a little more durability on the front lines (as well as some other tricks unique to the monk).

Up to you.

[jaappleton]

I want to elaborate on my thoughts on 4E VS Sun Soul, if I may.

I’m not saying 4E is a great Archetype. It isn’t. However, I do think it slightly edges out SS in a lot of areas.

Lv3
You get a spell or unique ability VS a Radiant ranged attack. Now, don’t get me wrong, I love Radiant damage. But you can’t Stun with it. It’s a shame Fist Of Unbroken Air has such a high Ki cost, I’d prefer it if it were Ki-less and you can ‘upcast’ it with Ki. Anyways, my point is, Radiant Sun Bolt is a 30’ ranged Attack. You’re also by far the most mobile class in the game, and while RSB keeps you out of danger, it also doesn’t really gel with many of the vanilla Monk abilities like Stunning Strike. The 4E options here are niche, true, but I’d say these abilities are about even. You also basically get the equivalent of Druidcraft, which is nice for flavor, but not much else.

Lv6 is actually where Sun Soul’s best ability is. Burning Hands as a bonus action is the best ability of the SS, because it does synergize with the core Monk. Hit, Stun, hit someone next to them, Stun, and Burning Hands them... which they auto-fail that save if they’re stunned. With 4E, you get basically Shatter or Hold person. And Shatter is a fine spell, but at lv6, it’s not something I’d rate sky blue. Hold Person is always a good one, and having a decent AoE option is not a bad thing. SS clearly wins here, but 4E absolutely adds more versatility.

At lv11, I think 4E is the winner. I said this earlier, but Radiant targeting Con, is impacted by Cover, and does nothing on a miss is way worse than people think it is. Meanwhile, 4E gets Fireball. Fireball, despite being a lesser damage type, is a good spell to have even at lv11. It goes around corners and does half damage on a miss. Yes, for comparable damage it costs 1 more Ki than SS’s version, but it does much more. Also, you can choose Fly if you want to, another solid option.

Lv17... SS uses a reaction to do a bit of damage, which just happens. No save. OK, free damage, but it does eat your Reaction so it’s limited to one target once per turn when you get hit. Also, you go Super Saiyan, which I will admit is cool. 4E? Stoneskin, Cone of Cold, or Wall Of Stone, pretty much. I’m inclined to call this even, although Stoneskin shouldn’t be discounted as by now you have Proficiency in ALL saving throws to help maintain it.

Now, does 4E have problems? Totally. Too few spells known, you should be able to swap them at the end of a long rest, maybe it’d actually be better it if they got a proper spell list and they can just pick like a Ranger or Sorcerer. And they haven’t received any new spell options since the PHB, which is a shame, because a LOT has been added that’s be both very flavorful and useful.

But upon really comparing the two “elemental” options of 4E and SS... SS isn’t all that good.

Also, as a side note, combining a Decanter of Endless Water with Shape the Flowing River is utterly hilarious.

EDIT: I also wanted to add this part in, because I’m curious to see others thoughts on it. The 4E Monk is a Half Caster Monk, not a 1/3rd Caster like an EK or AT. And due it’s short rest nature, I can’t help but draw comps to the Warlock in that respect. In a lot of respects, I do see this as a Half Caster Warlock. Oddly enough they don’t get 3rd Level spells at 9, they have to wait until lv11 due to the Monk Archetype design (that’s not 4E’s fault), but when you essentially get two spell slots (Ki cost), I can’t help but draw that comp. Anyone else feel that way?

[ProseBeforeHos]

Suggested prose correction/improvement to your intro.

currently
Proposed upgrade
Up to you.

Thank you, I made the swap. I'm well aware that I need an editor

[KorvinStarmast]

Thank you, I made the swap. I'm well aware that I need an editor

Glad to be of help. It's mostly in good shape, but if I find anything I can help with I'll post other suggestions. The Guide is pretty good.

[KorvinStarmast]

Another little bit of word smithing.

Suggesting revision of your intro to the Role of the Monk section:

"How do I play this class?"
Monk is one of the more difficult classes in DnD 5e to play well, not because it is weak, but due to it's unique play-style. Unlike the Rogue or Ranger the Monk cannot hang back and use a ranged weapon to provide damage and still get the maximum benefit from its class features. As a skirmisher styled melee combatant, the Monk has neither the durability nor the obvious "tank" status of classes like Fighter or Barbarian. To play the Monk well you have to combine intelligent use of stunning strike, your bonus action martial arts techniques and whatever benefits your subclass provides. If you're simply standing toe-to-toe with enemies and trading hits, then this class offers very little over a Fighter while lacking the Fighter's sustained durability.