Smite Evil-Sneak Attack?

[Setra]

Sorry if this is one of those questions everyone asks.

But would it be possible, if you were a Rogue/Paladin, to combine Smite Evil with a Sneak Attack?

Would doing something like that make you fall?

[Jasdoif]

But would it be possible, if you were a Rogue/Paladin, to combine Smite Evil with a Sneak Attack?

Sure, if the attack you make the smite with also qualifies for sneak attack.

Would doing something like that make you fall?

I don't see why you would. Not unless the campaign has a stricter (or perhaps better defined) view of paladins, anyway.

[slexlollar89]

Paladin of Freedom: can be chaotic, and therfore is not hindered by the "lawful/super honor" code. They still have to be honorable, though.

And anyway sneak attack does not have to be stab in the back attack, but could be interpreted as an ultra-precise hits on an enemy. So I would say yeah for either Paladin.

[Renegade Paladin]

Sorry if this is one of those questions everyone asks.

But would it be possible, if you were a Rogue/Paladin, to combine Smite Evil with a Sneak Attack?

Would doing something like that make you fall?

It is quite possible, and would not make you fall. That is, of course, unless your DM is an adherent of Tacky's Top 10 Ways to Screw the Paladin.

[tainsouvra]

Would doing something like that make you fall?

There is nothing about a sneak attack that violates the paladin's code, so I don't see why it would. A "sneak attack" is something of a misnomer, as the ability does not rely on being sneaky or underhanded, but rather revolves around striking an opponent's vitals any time he leaves his guard down. It is no more dishonorable than a successful critical hit while flanking or during a surprise round, and revolves around the same concept--it's merely a more controlled occurrence.

[slexlollar89]

A snek attack is synonymous with "stabing the devil, then twisting the knife, and headbutting it so it STAYS dead !"

[Kurald Galain]

Sneak attacking does break any amount of honor codes, both irl and ic. It depends on how honorable your DM demands his paladins to be.

[Setra]

Sneak attacking does break any amount of honor codes, both irl and ic. It depends on how honorable your DM demands his paladins to be.

Apparently it also depends on how your DM interprets Sneak Attack.

[tainsouvra]

Sneak attacking does break any amount of honor codes, both irl and ic. It depends on how honorable your DM demands his paladins to be.

I am interested in hearing how it is dishonorable to precisely strike an opponent, with the intent to kill, while he is flanked or flatfooted, but it is honorable to imprecisely strike an opponent, with the intent to kill, while he is flanked or flatfooted. Competence is dishonorable now?

I honestly can't think of a rationale other than the flawed "sneak attacks are sneaky"--which, despite the misnomer, isn't supported by the ability's description. I'd like to hear how you came to your conclusion, it fits the 2E idea of a Backstab but not the 3E description of a Sneak Attack.

[tannish2]

sneak attacking would not lose you abilities gained from paladin levels... knight levels however, are a different story (it says very specifically that knights cant do this, and it doesnt say paladins cant.... go for it) if your DM hates paladins THAT MUCH and needs to find even more ways to make them lose their paladin abilities then just devour his/her/its soul or set him/her/it on fire with your mind or something... or if he/she/it has a thing about evil characters but hasnt specifically banned them then take blackgaurd levels, and if he doesnt complain that he just screwed you out of a bunch of class features, and not letting you take blackgaurd levels is just assish.

OH i think theres a sneaky paladin PrC in complete adventurer that gets sneak attack, if your DM doesnt take that as evidence, travel back in time and kill his/her/its parents before he/she/it was born

[Overlard]

OH i think theres a sneaky paladin PrC in complete adventurer that gets sneak attack, if your DM doesnt take that as evidence, travel back in time and kill his/her/its parents before he/she/it was born

Yep, there's at least two paladin PrCs that I can think of that give sneak attack, and a feat that lets you use smite evil and sneak attack together to daze your foe.

[Mad Wizard]

IIRC, there is a feat that lets you stun enemies if you sneak attack and smite evil at the same time in the complete adventurer, and lets you multiclass freely between paladin and rogue.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm going to throw my opinion in with the "Sneak Attack is not Backstabbing" side. Nothing dishonorable about precision attacks on vital organs.

Now, while I've got nothing against sneak attack gained through flanking, in most circumstances, I can't see a Paladin sneaking up on someone and ganking them in the surprise round. But there are some cases where it is permissible to make a pre-emptive strike, and some where it's not. Shadowstrikers, Shadowbane Inquisitors, and Greyguards can probably do it all the time, of course.

[Jayabalard]

I am interested in hearing how it is dishonorable to precisely strike an opponent, with the intent to kill, while he is flanked or flatfooted, but it is honorable to imprecisely strike an opponent, with the intent to kill, while he is flanked or flatfooted.

/shrug

It's called sneak attack, not precise attack, and it's a derivative of the older backstab ability; hence, quite a few people are going to interpret it as an underhanded attack (ie, dishonorable)

[GimliFett]

/shrug

It's called sneak attack, not precise attack, and it's a derivative of the older backstab ability; hence, quite a few people are going to interpret it as an underhanded attack (ie, dishonorable)

They really should have called it the latter, as long as they don't use the version from Star Wars RPG.

[Person_Man]

Paladin of Freedom 4-5/Whatever 1-2/Ronin 2/Whatever X. Preferably, Whatever is a PrC that stacks for Smite Evil, or you could just stay in Paladin of Freedom your entire build with the exception of 2 levels of Ronin.

Backstory: You're a freedom fighter. At some point you join any army to support a good cause. At first you excel in combat and the men love you as a natural leader. But your chaotic ways force you to leave the battlefield for some reason (perhaps the army is committing atrocities, or you discover that they secretly are doing something bad). This gets you tagged as a Ronin. You embrace the role to blah blah blah. Essentially a religious Han Solo.

Ronin has full BAB, grants Sneak Attack, and grants a Shock Trooper like charge ability that pumps damage and dumps AC.

Take the Craven feat from Champions of Ruin (a good feat for any Sneak Attacker, though lots of DMs ban it because its campaign world specific). It adds 1 point of Sneak Attack damage per character level (it also requires that you cannot be immune to fear, and imposes a penalty on fear checks) whenever you Sneak Attack. So it scales well and doesn't require that you spend your career in a Sneak Attack class in order to get some good use out of it.


Take Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Spirited Charge. Win Initiative, or ask your friends to flank, or get magical help to qualify for Sneak Attack. Use a lance two handed. Smite Evil. Charge. Remember that static damage bonuses are multiplied. Anything you hit is pretty much dead.

Take Staggering Strike from Complete Adventurer. Whenever you deal damage against an enemy with Sneak Attack, they must Save (DC equal to damage dealt) or be Staggered for 1 round (limiting them to a single Move or Standard Action). This is mostly to screw your enemies when you can't Charge. Like Craven, this Sneak Attack ability is useful at every level.

[Indon]

Sneak attacking does break any amount of honor codes, both irl and ic. It depends on how honorable your DM demands his paladins to be.

I wouldn't say the Paladin is _that_ honorable in combat.

Now, the Knight's code includes that they may not take a bonus from flanking. This, to me, also says, "No sneak attacking flanked targets."

[Fax Celestis]

But they can still SA flat-footed ones.

[tainsouvra]

It's called sneak attack, not precise attack, and it's a derivative of the older backstab ability; hence, quite a few people are going to interpret it as an underhanded attack (ie, dishonorable)

They are free to do so, but it's worthwhile to remind them that the rules don't actually include anything underhanded about a sneak attack--it is described as a precise strike on an opponent's vital organs. Inertia in perceptions and misnomers are common, so I can understand how this question comes up, but an interpretation of the ability as underhanded of dishonorable is not supported by the rules themselves.

[AdversusVeritas]

Sneak attacking does break any amount of honor codes, both irl and ic.

How so? I realize how it would if you were to literally sneak up when someone was completely unaware and like slit their throat or something, but sneak attack covers more than that.

It depends on how honorable your DM demands his paladins to be.

*shrug* I'd at least allow it for flanking or situations where the enemy is aware of your presence but still flatfooted. Then again, I'm sure some DMs don't even allow paladins to flank or attack flatfooted creatures.

[Yeril]

Yup, Shadowbane Inquisitor.

Its basicly THE Paladin/Rogue

A LG Knight in Not-so-Shiny white armour who's code of conduct is along the lines of "ALL EVIL MUST BE SMITED"

Just because they are unarmed and asleep in bed doesn't make them any less evil or any less smitable

[Indon]

But they can still SA flat-footed ones.

Indeed. And, of course, the Paladin has no such provision in their own code, and thus could, reasonably, have no limitations on who they could Sneak Attack.

[Reel On, Love]

But they can still SA flat-footed ones.

Man, the Knight's code is completely nonsensical.

I mean, look. You're a Knight. You're threatening a target who's in a Grease spell. You can't attack him, because he's flat-footed (unless he has 5 ranks in balance).
However, the very INSTANT that he falls down, you can beat the hell out of him.

I get the image of a bunch of Knights who have a guy on a Grease spell surrounded, and are waiting eagerly as the poor sap tries to keep his balance.

[Indon]

Man, the Knight's code is completely nonsensical.

I mean, look. You're a Knight. You're threatening a target who's in a Grease spell. You can't attack him, because he's flat-footed (unless he has 5 ranks in balance).
However, the very INSTANT that he falls down, you can beat the hell out of him.

I get the image of a bunch of Knights who have a guy on a Grease spell surrounded, and are waiting eagerly as the poor sap tries to keep his balance.

I don't think the Knight has any provisions against flat-footed opponents. They just can't use flanking bonuses. They can even flank, they just have to waive the bonus from flanking.

[Jayabalard]

They are free to do so, but it's worthwhile to remind them that the rules don't actually include anything underhanded about a sneak attack--it is described as a precise strike on an opponent's vital organs. Inertia in perceptions and misnomers are common, so I can understand how this question comes up, but an interpretation of the ability as underhanded of dishonorable is not supported by the rules themselves.

As far as I'm aware, there is no definitive RAW answer to what is "honorable" so "by RAW" arguments are kind of absurd in this situation.

It's kind of obvious that you have to take advantage of your opponent to sneak attack them, and whether that sort of behavior is allowable for a paladin is going to vary from game to game.

[Reel On, Love]

I don't think the Knight has any provisions against flat-footed opponents. They just can't use flanking bonuses. They can even flank, they just have to waive the bonus from flanking.

No, they have both.

A knight never strikes a flat-footed opponent. Instead, you allow your foe to ready himself before attacking.

Thus, the situation with Grease.

[Fax Celestis]

No, they have both.


Thus, the situation with Grease.

I would think "prone" counts as "not ready."

[Indon]

No, they have both.

Well, good to know.

In any case, a Paladin can beat up on unsuspecting victims all day long, so long as they're evil.

[Jasdoif]

I would think "prone" counts as "not ready."

Why? You can make melee and crossbow attacks while prone, after all; and the crossbow won't even have a penalty.

(Otherwise, I imagine the preferred anti-Knight tactic will be "stop, drop, roll, FIRE!")

[Reel On, Love]

I would think "prone" counts as "not ready."

No, "ready" means "not flatfooted", as you can see since that bit is a qualifier to the "don't attack flatfooted opponents" bit. They could have included a "don't attack prone opponents" line if they'd wanted, but they didn't... which is for the best, since Bulwark of Defense synergizes so well with an AoO-tripping build.