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    Default [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Rizban's Revised Third Edition
    Spoiler: Table of Contents
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    —• Introduction
    ——• Project Goals
    ——• Design Paradigm
    ——• Credits and Acknowledgments

    —• Races
    ——• Human
    ——• Dwarf
    ——• Elf
    ——• Gnome
    ——• Half-Elf
    ——• Half-Orc
    ——• Halfling
    —• Classes
    ——• Barbarian
    ——• Bard
    ——• Cleric
    ——• Druid
    ——• Fighter
    ——• Monk
    ——• Paladin
    ——• Ranger
    ——• Rogue
    ——• Sorcerer
    ——• Wizard
    ——• Psion
    —• Skills
    ——• Academics
    ——• Acrobatics
    ——• Arcane Lore
    ——• Athletics
    ——• Deception
    ——• Engineering
    ——• Handle Animal
    ——• Heal
    ——• Insight
    ——• Intimidate
    ——• Linguistics
    ——• Natural Lore
    ——• Perception
    ——• Perform
    ——• Persuasion
    ——• Profession
    ——• Psi Lore
    ——• Stealth
    ——• Streetwise
    ——• Theology
    —• Feats
    —• Equipment and Supplies
    —• Adventuring and Combat
    —• Magic and Spells


    Rogue
    Spoiler: Design Notes
    Show
    As stated in the Index thread, the purpose of this project is threefold:
    1. To improve and streamline parts of 3rd Edition without changing it into an entirely new system.
    2. To revise the SRD classes to be within Tier 2 to Tier 3 in power level.
    3. Because I enjoy homebrewing and want to do it.

    A few notes about this project in general:
    • Skills have been revised completely. There are now only 21 skills. Max skill rank is equal to Hit Dice.
    • Feats have been heavily revised.
    • While this project does touch on material from other sources, it is focused primarily on material in the SRD. Where material from other sourcebooks intersects this project directly, such as with alternate class features and substitution levels, that material will be referenced here but not reproduced if unavailable in the SRD. Where other sourcebooks don't directly intersect, such as new feats and spells, that content will be largely ignored and is considered to be compatible with this project unless otherwise stated. Spells from the Spell Compendium are named where appropriate.


    The Rogue
    The rogue is a fairly decent class. It's got quite a bit going for it and is almost where I want my revised classes to be. I gave it assassin spellcasting, plus a bit, as well as made the special abilities available earlier. There's definitely room for improvement, but I think this is a fairly solid start to the rogue revision.

    Base
    Fort Ref Will Spellcasting
    Attack Bonus
    Save Save Save
    Special
    0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
    1st
    +0
    +0 +2 +0
    Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
    - - - - -
    2nd
    +1
    +0 +3 +0
    Evasion
    2 - - - -
    3rd
    +2
    +1 +3 +1
    Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
    3 - - - -
    4th
    +3
    +1 +4 +1
    Special ability, uncanny dodge
    4 - - - -
    5th
    +3
    +1 +4 +1
    Sneak attack +3d6
    4 0 - - -
    6th
    +4
    +2 +5 +2
    Trap sense +2
    5 1 - - -
    7th
    +5
    +2 +5 +2
    Special ability, sneak attack +4d6
    5 2 - - -
    8th
    +6/+1
    +2 +6 +2
    Improved uncanny dodge
    5 2 0 - -
    9th
    +6/+1
    +3 +6 +3
    Sneak attack +5d6, trap sense +3
    6 3 1 - -
    10th
    +7/+2
    +3 +7 +3
    Special ability
    6 3 2 - -
    11th
    +8/+3
    +3 +7 +3
    Sneak attack +6d6
    6 3 2 0 -
    12th
    +9/+4
    +4 +8 +4
    Trap sense +4
    6 4 3 1 -
    13th
    +9/+4
    +4 +8 +4
    Sneak attack +7d6, special ability
    7 4 3 2 -
    14th
    +10/+5
    +4 +9 +4
    —
    7 4 3 2 0
    15th
    +11/+6/+1
    +5 +9 +5
    Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +5
    7 4 4 3 1
    16th
    +12/+7/+2
    +5 +10 +5
    Special ability
    7 5 4 3 2
    17th
    +12/+7/+2
    +5 +10 +5
    Sneak attack +9d6
    7 5 4 3 2
    18th
    +13/+8/+3
    +6 +11 +6
    Trap sense +6
    7 5 4 4 3
    19th
    +14/+9/+4
    +6 +11 +6
    Sneak attack +10d6, special ability
    7 5 5 4 3
    20th
    +15/+10/+5
    +6 +12 +6
    —
    7 5 5 4 3

    Hit Die: d6
    Class Skills (8 + Int modifier per level, Χ2 at 1st level): Acrobatics (Dex), Arcane Lore (Int), Athletics (Str), Deception (Cha), Engineering (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession (Wis), Stealth (Dex), and Streetwise (Int).

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Rogue.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Sneak Attack (Ex)
    If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

    The rogue's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

    With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

    A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."

    Trapfinding (Ex)
    Rogues can use the Perception skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Rogues can use the Engineering skill to disarm magic traps.

    A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with an Engineering check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Spells
    Beginning at 2nd level, rogue gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a rogue must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Rogue bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the rogue's Intelligence bonus. When the rogue gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Intelligence score for that spell level.

    Upon reaching 6th level, and at every even-numbered level after that, a rogue can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level rogue spell she can cast. A rogue may swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for that level.

    A rogue's caster level is equal to his class level, but a rogue has no caster level until he reaches 2nd level.

    Evasion (Ex)
    At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Trap Sense (Ex)
    At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses increase by +1 for every three rogue levels thereafter. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
    Spells Known
    Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
    1st - - - - -
    2nd 2 - - - -
    3rd 3 - - - -
    4th 3 - - - -
    5th 4 11 - - -
    6th 4 1 - - -
    7th 5 2 - - -
    8th 5 2 11 - -
    9th 6 3 1 - -
    10th 6 3 2 - -
    11th 6 3 2 11 -
    12th 6 4 3 1 -
    13th 6 4 3 2 -
    14th 6 4 3 2 11
    15th 6 4 4 3 1
    16th 6 4 4 3 2
    17th 6 4 4 3 2
    18th 6 4 4 4 3
    19th 6 4 4 4 3
    20th 6 4 4 4 3
    1 The rogue gains the spells known as indicated, even if he does not have a sufficient Intelligence to have a bonus spell of this level.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Special Abilities
    On attaining 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.
    • Ally's Evade (Ex): By pointing out danger almost instantly, a rogue grant all adjacent allies Evasion. Minimum level 10.
    • Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
    • Death Attack (Ex): If a rogue studies her victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the attack can also possibly paralyze or kill the target (rogue's choice). While studying the victim, the rogue can undertake other actions so long as her attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the rogue or recognize her as an enemy. If the victim fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's class level + the rogue's Int modifier) against the kill effect, he dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the rogue. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack.
      Once the rogue has completed the 3 rounds of study, she must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails or if the rogue does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before she can attempt another death attack.
      Minimum level 7.
    • Defensive Roll (Ex): Once per encounter, when she would be damaged by a weapon (or a weapon-like spell or ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll. If she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.
    • Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A rogue with this ability can use the Stealth skill to hide even while being observed. Minimum level 7.
    • Improved Arcana (Ex): A rogue with this ability gains one additional spell known and one additional spell slot per day of the same level as the new spell. The new spell learned must be at least one level lower than the highest level rogue spell she can cast.
      Special: A psychic rogue gains one additional power known and enough power points to manifest that power one time without augmentation. The power learned must be at least one level lower than the highest level psychic rogue power she can manifest.
    • Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
    • Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): The rogue's sneak attack damage increases by 1d6. This ability may be selected multiple times.
    • Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
    • Penetrating Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can apply half of her sneak attack damage to creatures normally immune to sneak attack when she flanks them. She must be flanking to use this ability, and it does not apply against creatures that cannot be flanked.
    • Poison Use (Ex): A rogue with this ability can apply poison to a weapon as a swift action without risk of poisoning herself.
    • Skill Mastery (Ex): The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.
    • Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
    • Sniper (Ex): A rogue with this ability can make sneak attacks within 60 feet. This ability can be taken a second time to increase the range to a maximum of 90 feet.
    • Terrain Mastery (Ex): Choose one of the following terrain types: Aquatic, Desert, Forest, Hills, Marsh, Mountain, or Urban. While in the chosen terrain, a rogue gains a +2 bonus on Stealth skill checks and Initiative checks and a +10 bonus to land speed. A rogue may choose this ability multiples times, selecting a different terrain type each time.
    • Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

    If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Rogue Spell List
    Rogues choose their spells from the following list.
    * Spell located in Spell Compendium
    E Power found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. These are cast as a spell without the ability to augment.


    • 0 Level: amanuensis*, caltrops*, detect magic, detect poison, disguise self, ghost sound, launch bolt*, launch item*, light, message, read magic, silent portal*, stick*.

    • 1st Level: conceal thoughtsE, critical strike*, darkness, dead end*, detect secret doors, distract assailant*, ebon eyes*, feather fall, insightful feint*, instant locksmith*, instant search*, jump, lightfoot*, low-light vision*, mage hand, obscuring mist, shock and awe*, sleep, sniper's shot*, sticky fingers*, true strike

    • 2nd Level: absorb weapon*, alter self, blade of pain and fear*, cat's grace, cloud mindE, deeper darkness, fell the greatest foe*, fire shuriken*, fox's cunning, ice knife*, illusory script, invisibility, iron silence*, knock, marked object*, pass without trace, phantom foe*, spider climb, swift invisibility*, undetectable alignment, veil of shadow*.

    • 3rd Level: amorphous form*, deep slumber, false life, find the gap*, hustleE, misdirection, nondetection, spectral weapon*, spider poison*, ubiquitous visionE, wraithstrike*

    • 4th Level: clairaudience/clairvoyance, cursed blade*, dimension door, freedom of movement, glibness, greater invisibility, heart ripper*, hide from dragons*, implacable pursuer*, locate creature, modify memory, poison, shadow form*, shadow phase*, sniper's eye*, true seeing, vulnerability*.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2020-03-02 at 11:45 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Rogue Alternative Class Features
    Psychic Rogue
    The spark of psionic potential within leads the psychic rogue along a different path than most.

    Level: 1st
    Replaces: A psychic rogue loses the spellcasting class feature and Arcane Lore as a class skill.
    Benefit:
    Class Skills
    A psychic rogue gains Psi Lore as a class skill.

    Power Points/Day
    A psychic rogue's ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points she has available. Her base daily allotment of power points is given on the table. In addition, she receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

    Powers Known
    A 2nd level psychic rogue knows one power of her choice. She unlocks the knowledge of new powers as indicated on the table. She chooses her powers known from the psychic rogue power list. A psychic rogue can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than her manifester level.

    The total number of powers a psychic rogue can manifest in a day is limited only by her daily power points.

    A psychic rogue simply knows her powers; they are ingrained in her mind. She does not need to prepare them, though she must get a good night's sleep each day to regain all her spent power points.

    The Difficulty Class for saving throws against psychic rogue powers is 10 + the power's level + the psychic rogue's Intelligence modifier.

    Maximum Power Level Known
    A psychic rogue has the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As she attains higher levels, she may gain the ability to master more complex powers as shown on the table. To learn or manifest a power, a psychic rogue must have a Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power's level.

    Psychic Rogue Power List
    Psychic rogues choose their powers from the following list.

    • 1st Level: astral traveler, attraction, bolt, burst, catfall, compression, conceal thoughts, control light, create sound, dιjΰ vu, detect psionics, detect secret doors, psionic, detect snares and pits, psionic, dimensional pocket, disable, distract, elfsight, empathy, empty mind, entangling ectoplasm, far hand, float, force screen, know direction and location, my light, precognition, defensive, precognition, offensive, prescience, offensive, sense link, skate, vigor.

    • 2nd Level: animal affinity, aversion, body equilibrium, chameleon, cloud mind, concealing amorpha, control object, control sound, darkvision, psionic, detect hostile intent, feat leech, find traps, psionic, knock, psionic, levitate, psionic, object reading, read thoughts, sustenance, thought shield, tongues, psionic, wall walker.

    • 3rd Level: body adjustment, body purification, concealing amorpha, greater, control air, danger sense, dimension slide, escape detection, hustle, keen edge, psionic, mental barrier, microkinesis, telekinetic force, ubiquitous vision.

    • 4th Level: correspond, dimension door, psionic, freedom of movement, psionic, steadfast perception, telekinetic maneuver, wall of ectoplasm

    • 5th Level: adapt body, feather weight, power resistance, remote viewing, retrieve, true seeing, psionic
    Power Max
    Points
    /Day
    Powers
    Known
    Level Known
    1st - - -
    2nd 1 1 1st
    3rd 2 2 1st
    4th 3 3 1st
    5th 4 3 1st
    6th 6 4 1st
    7th 8 5 2nd
    8th 10 6 2nd
    9th 12 6 2nd
    10th 16 7 3rd
    11th 20 8 3rd
    12th 24 9 3rd
    13th 28 9 4th
    14th 32 10 4th
    15th 40 11 4th
    16th 48 12 4th
    17th 56 12 4th
    18th 64 13 4th
    19th 76 14 5th
    20th 88 15 5th


    Compatible ACFs
    The following alternative class features from official sources are fully compatible with this class.
    • Antiquarian (Complete Champion)
    • Breathstealer (Dragon Magic)
    • Changeling Rogue (Races of Eberron)
    • Death's Ruin (Complete Champion)
    • Disruptive Attack (PHB 2)
    • Feign Death (Exemplars of Evil)
    • Golden Hands of Vergadain (Champions of Valor)
    • Goliath Rogue (Races of Stone)
    • Holy Stalker (Complete Champion)
    • Kobold Rogue (Races of the Dragon)
    • Martial Rogue (Unearthed Arcana p58)
    • Mimic (Exemplars of Evil)
    • Planar Rogue (Planar Handbook)
    • Quick Fingers (Dungeonscape)
    • Spell Reflection (Complete Mage)
    • Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic)

    Modified ACFs
    The following alternative class features from official sources are not fully compatible with this class and require some modification. Substitution features not listed are as written.
    • Halfling Rogue (Races of the Wild)
    • Rilkan Rogue (Magic of Incarnum)
    • Wilderness Rogue (Unearthed Arcana)

    Spoiler: Modified ACFs
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    Halfling Rogue
    Sniping Mastery: This is added as a special ability option and may be taken at any level that offers a special ability.

    Rilkan Rogue
    Fortunate Reflexes: This is added as a special ability option and may be taken at any level that offers a special ability.

    Wilderness Rogue
    Class Skills:
    Remove: Insight, Linguistics, Persuasion, and Streetwise.
    Add: Handle Animal and Natural Lore.

    Special Abilities: Add: woodland stride and camouflage.
    The bonuses on Stealth skill checks and Initiative checks from the Terrain Mastery special ability are increased to +4, but this doesn't apply to the Urban terrain.

    Incompatible ACFs
    The following alternative class features from official sources are compatible with this class at all.
    • Friend's Evasion (Complete Champion) – This is already incorporated into the base class.
    • Frostfell Terrain Mastery (Frostburn) – This is already incorporated into the base class.
    • Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) – This is already incorporated into the base class.
    • Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) – This is already incorporated into the base class.
    • Poison Use (Drow of the Underdark) – This is already incorporated into the base class.
    • Psychic Rogue (Mind's Eye) – This is already incorporated into the base class.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2018-06-15 at 07:12 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    .
    I notice that your modified skills don't have UMD or anything similar. That's a significant nerf bat.

    I see that you've improved the options of Special Abilities and gave 2 more, at levels 4 and 7. I think it's not enough. Nothing's to stop you from giving one every 2 levels. You don't need to stay true to the core Rogue's progression.

    The spells that were integrated into the class mean that your game no longer has a spell-less skillmonkey. This takes away an element of the game that has existed since the dawn of D&D.
    Seems more intuitive to steal Factotum features for the Rogue.
    I'd also reinstate UMD, even if strictly a Rogue ability and not a skill. It amplifies the "Tinkerer" role.

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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    .
    I notice that your modified skills don't have UMD or anything similar. That's a significant nerf bat.

    I see that you've improved the options of Special Abilities and gave 2 more, at levels 4 and 7. I think it's not enough. Nothing's to stop you from giving one every 2 levels. You don't need to stay true to the core Rogue's progression.

    The spells that were integrated into the class mean that your game no longer has a spell-less skillmonkey. This takes away an element of the game that has existed since the dawn of D&D.
    Seems more intuitive to steal Factotum features for the Rogue.
    I'd also reinstate UMD, even if strictly a Rogue ability and not a skill. It amplifies the "Tinkerer" role.
    Maybe I'm not understanding clearly, but it seems like you're arguing for a position that says the rogue should not have spellcasting but then at the same should have spellcasting via skill points and items. That's hitting some cognitive dissonance for me that I'm having trouble resolving.

    I was seriously considering just merging in the spellthief abilities, but those aren't open content. It's still something I'm considering, if I can figure out a way to do so without violating the OGL.
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    Quod tibi vis fieri, facias.

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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Maybe I'm not understanding clearly, but it seems like you're arguing for a position that says the rogue should not have spellcasting but then at the same should have spellcasting via skill points and items. That's hitting some cognitive dissonance for me that I'm having trouble resolving.
    The Rogue/Thief base/core class never had spellcasting directly.
    The Rogue/Thief base/core class always had access to magic via items (tinkering)... at least starting at BECMI.
    The Rogue/Thief base/core class was always underpowered.
    Putting spellcasting aside, most of the Factotum's features fit the archetype.
    All the above drove me to choose this solution for the Rogue. And even with everything I gave it, it's still far from OP.
    If you want your scoundrel character to have some spellcasting, you could always multiclass.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I was seriously considering just merging in the spellthief abilities, but those aren't open content. It's still something I'm considering, if I can figure out a way to do so without violating the OGL.
    What OGL? This is 3.Xe overhaul we're talking about.
    4e came out at 2008.
    When 5e came out, at 2014, WotC have completely abandoned 3e. Since 2016 they don't even care about DNDTools anymore.

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    redface Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    The Rogue/Thief base/core class never had spellcasting directly.
    The Rogue/Thief base/core class always had access to magic via items (tinkering)... at least starting at BECMI.
    The Rogue/Thief base/core class was always underpowered.
    Putting spellcasting aside, most of the Factotum's features fit the archetype.
    All the above drove me to choose this solution for the Rogue. And even with everything I gave it, it's still far from OP.
    If you want your scoundrel character to have some spellcasting, you could always multiclass.
    I get the history of it, but I don't get saying it shouldn't have casting but that it also needs indirect casting to be potent enough. That just seems needlessly convoluted to me.

    I'll likely try to come up with a non-casting ACF for the rogue, but I really think that I'd like to keep casting as part of the class, unless there's a concern beyond tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    When 5e came out, at 2014, WotC have completely abandoned 3e. Since 2016 they don't even care about DNDTools anymore.
    Whether or not it's enforced doesn't determine its legality. I usually try not to post things that aren't open content, though not always.

    Of note, 5e was released under OGL 1.0a with references back to 3e/3.5. So, it's clear that they aren't ignoring it completely. The license itself is still alive and well, even within WotC's usage. How vigilantly they enforce it, particularly with older editions, is another matter. Do I think I'll get a C&D for this project or any other homebrew I care to post? No, not at all. I still want to do what I feel is the right thing. That's just a personal thing though, and whether or not anyone else agrees or abides by it honestly doesn't matter to me.

    Specific game mechanics that aren't open content can still be used, provided they are explained with wording that is sufficiently different from the original, to prevent infringement. I just need to come up with a way to handle those mechanics that I want to include that is sufficiently original.
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I get the history of it, but I don't get saying it shouldn't have casting but that it also needs indirect casting to be potent enough. That just seems needlessly convoluted to me.
    I'm saying that it doesn't fit the theme of scoundrel-tinkerer, that's all.
    You shouldn't remove traditional character concepts from your project. I've removed UMD myself, but my magic-items rules allow most items to be used by noncasters (the option exists for all items other than scrolls), so nothing's lost in the process.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Of note, 5e was released under OGL 1.0a with references back to 3e/3.5. So, it's clear that they aren't ignoring it completely. The license itself is still alive and well, even within WotC's usage. How vigilantly they enforce it, particularly with older editions, is another matter. Do I think I'll get a C&D for this project or any other homebrew I care to post? No, not at all. I still want to do what I feel is the right thing. That's just a personal thing though, and whether or not anyone else agrees or abides by it honestly doesn't matter to me.
    When I homebrew, there's basically one leading criterion: "does it advance my design goals and would it benefit the game?"
    Everything else is secondary at best.
    I've found that the way to avoid infringements is to reference sources rather than detail what's already published officially. All official materials can either be bought or found online. Anyone curious enough will find a way to be informed of whatever you reference.

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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    I'M NOT A LAWYER. I KNOW A FEW THINGS, BUT COULD BE WRONG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Whether or not it's enforced doesn't determine its legality.
    Yeah, actually it does, or can. A copyright, trademark, or patent that goes unenforced long enough can become invalid. If I publish copyrighted material and watch while a hundred people use it without permission, I lose the right to make any claim against the hundred-and-first.

    Specific game mechanics that aren't open content can still be used, provided they are explained with wording that is sufficiently different from the original, to prevent infringement. I just need to come up with a way to handle those mechanics that I want to include that is sufficiently original.
    Is this for broad publication? If it's just for use in your games and discussion here then there's a very good chance that it falls within fair use, meaning you'd have nothing to worry about, legally or ethically.

    Remember that copyrights (and patents) exist as legal things not to reward the creators of stuff, but to encourage the creation of stuff that is available for the benefit of all, and incidentally does so by rewarding the creators. When copyright (or patent) enforcement stifles the use of the material, it runs counter to the purpose of the laws, and there is usually a provision of the law or a legal precedent that addresses it.

    Are you hurting the creator(s) with your use, or using the material in a way consistent the laws' purpose? If the latter, you're probably OK.
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    I'M NOT A LAWYER. I KNOW A FEW THINGS, BUT COULD BE WRONG.
    Two things.

    1. This is really off topic. If you have something to say about the homebrew, I welcome it. Otherwise, I'd like to stay on topic, please.

    2. You might want to review the Forum Rules on inappropriate topics.
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Two things.
    Fair enough.
    -- Joe
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    I like the rogue having access to a small amount of magic. I think of rogues as the canny observers and the jacks-of-all-trades. If I were a d&d rogue, I would be watching the party's caster when I can, observing and gathering enough information to cast a few simple spells of my own. As for UMD, as far as I've seen, this revised edition has gotten rid of it. Too single purpose, I'd guess.

    Though, as was mentioned, it would certainly be good to make an ACF that gets rid of the casting, as some rogues just don't. Perhaps some bonus feats of some sort. Or perhaps you'll want to make some things that help compensate for the loss of spells like Invisibility. Maybe a way to get concealment from even the lighter shadows. An ability similar to Nondetection, to help skilled rogues avoid divinations, which are quite problematic for them. Something like Trackless Step as well - no rogue wants to be easily followed. These abilities should probably hold off until near 8th level. Before that, I think a bit of low-light vision and then some additive darkvision would be very nice.
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanyo View Post
    As for UMD, as far as I've seen, this revised edition has gotten rid of it. Too single purpose, I'd guess.
    I've eliminated UMD. Activating magic items that would previously require UMD will now require a different skill check, depending on the item. E.g., Arcane Lore for an arcane wand of magic missile and Theology for a divine wand of cure light wounds. That will only apply to spell trigger and spell completion items though, as any other magic items will have any such restrictions removed from them. Things like required race, class, or skill ranks are being reworked to be handled differently, making that aspect of UMD irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanyo View Post
    Though, as was mentioned, it would certainly be good to make an ACF that gets rid of the casting, as some rogues just don't. Perhaps some bonus feats of some sort. Or perhaps you'll want to make some things that help compensate for the loss of spells like Invisibility. Maybe a way to get concealment from even the lighter shadows. An ability similar to Nondetection, to help skilled rogues avoid divinations, which are quite problematic for them. Something like Trackless Step as well - no rogue wants to be easily followed. These abilities should probably hold off until near 8th level. Before that, I think a bit of low-light vision and then some additive darkvision would be very nice.
    Those are some good ideas. I've added them to my notes.
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    Default Re: [3.R] Rizban's Revised Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
    You might want to make a special ability to either extend the range limit to, say, 90 feet, or remove it entirely, to enable sniping rogues. If you can only sneak attack within 1 move action of most enemies, it's not really worth it to build a ranged rogue, but letting them sneak attack from at least farther than charge range makes it more worthwhile.

    A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."
    Have you considered cutting down on the list of creatures immune to precision damage? Undead and constructs, at least, are generally portrayed as having weak spots--zombie headshots, staking vampires in the heart, attacking a golem's joints, and so on--and plants could reasonably have weak spots as well like any other living creatures. Even giving rogues half sneak attack damage on those types by default and having Penetrating Strike give full sneak attack damage would go a long way toward not rendering sneak attack useless against too many monsters.

    Also, I'd suggest removing the restriction on not sneak attacking into concealment, either by default (probably best), with a special ability, or as part of a really-good-in-the-shadows ACF. The stereotypical rogue stabs people in shadowy back alleys, but darkness grants concealment so as things stand it can actually be harder for them to kill someone in the dark, and that doesn't make much sense.
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